Quick recoinoter

[elonin]

Is this a practical feat to have at the table? I would think that some advantage should be given at the start of combat, though making this work without slowing down the game seems difficult. Any ideas?

[BowStreetRunner]

It's an ideal feat for the party scout (whether he has the scout class or not) to have. It allows him to remain extra alert without having to stop moving. This can have more application out of combat while the scout is out ahead of the party and they are moving forward. During combat the scout-type character can be using it to try to keep track of hidden or with a high enough check even invisible enemies, all while not giving up movement that keeps him from ending up stuck in front-line melee.

[Draz74]

Basically it's a very DM-dependent feat. Depends on whether your DM makes in-combat Spot and Listen checks a valuable thing. Most of my DMs haven't bothered; an extra Spot or Listen as a free action each round wouldn't have picked up anything that wasn't already obvious to everyone.

[Curmudgeon]

Quick Reconnoiter is an excellent feat because it lets you notice things you didn't notice before.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. Depending on your DM, "something" could be any of the following:

the same creature/thing
the same creature/thing in the same location
the same creature/thing in the same location doing (or not doing) the same thing
the same creature/thing in the same location doing (or not doing) the same thing in the same manner
Somebody with Hide in Plain Sight could be using their skill to Hide while attacking. Most characters will get one chance to Spot them doing so, and then they're out of luck until they spend a move action to try again regardless of how poorly the attacker with HiPS is rolling. A character with Quick Reconnoiter gets to try again at least once every round.

[nedz]

I have mixed feelings.

As a DM I try to go out of my way to make skills relevant — possibly too far.

When a new player joined the group he created a Scout with this feat — the result was that he nerfed all of the other characters since I was basically allowing them to do this anyway. Maybe this is a good thing in making me tighten up the rules and remove a stealth house-rule — I don't know ?

When I describe a room I will lay out the floor plans and give a brief description of the first things they see. I will then add more detail in layers in each further round. I do this to create more immersion, and avoid boring the players with a wall of text. QR interferes with this process for the characters who don't have it.

YMMV — it's a play-style thing.

[Person_Man]

Reactive rolls are already free actions. But assuming you have a nice DM, it basically let's you re-roll one missed Spot or Listen check per round as a free action.

The average result from rolling 1d20 is 10.5. The average result of rolling 2d20 and using the higher of the two is 13.825. So the benefit of Quick Reconnoiter is basically +3.325 to Spot or Listen once per round. Which really isn't worth the investment of a Feat, in my opinion.

There just aren't many Feats that augment Skills which are also worth taking. The exceptions are perhaps some of the Intimidate/Fear based Feats, Shape Soulmeld (which tends to grant a Skill bonus and some other useful ability), Combat Acrobat (stand up from Prone, ignore difficult terrain), and maybe one or two others I'm forgetting.

[Curmudgeon]

The average result from rolling 1d20 is 10.5. The average result of rolling 2d20 and using the higher of the two is 13.825. So the benefit of Quick Reconnoiter is basically +3.325 to Spot or Listen once per round. Which really isn't worth the investment of a Feat, in my opinion.
It's not just another roll, but also the chance to make that roll without explicitly spending a move action. In my experience nobody uses a move action Spot or Listen retry until they try to do something based on knowledge their character doesn't have, and I force it upon them as DM.

Player: I sunder that guy's spell component pouch.
DM: What spell component pouch? You never Spotted it!
Player: (Grumble, grumble.) I make a move action Spot retry. (Rolls, poorly.)
DM: You Spot items down to Tiny size within 10'. Your enemy is wearing a vest, a buckler, and a backpack, and carrying a rod.
Player: (Groans.) I make another move action Spot retry. (Rolls.)
DM: You Spot all items (Fine size and above) within 10'. Your enemy is also wearing two rings, a headband, an amulet, and a belt with two pouches and a sheathed dagger.

[nedz]

The average result from rolling 1d20 is 10.5. The average result of rolling 2d20 and using the higher of the two is 13.825. So the benefit of Quick Reconnoiter is basically +3.325 to Spot or Listen once per round. Which really isn't worth the investment of a Feat, in my opinion.

There just aren't many Feats that augment Skills which are also worth taking. The exceptions are perhaps some of the Intimidate/Fear based Feats, Shape Soulmeld (which tends to grant a Skill bonus and some other useful ability), Combat Acrobat (stand up from Prone, ignore difficult terrain), and maybe one or two others I'm forgetting.

Well Skill Focus (Spot) is +3, so QR is marginally better than than and it does Listen too. Spot is one of the better skills to max out because ambushes are bad, and you get to use it a lot. It's also often an opposed roll so beating par against a roughly equally tricked out Hide is good.

But this only puts it near the top of a lacklustre set of feats. Having DMed a game where QR is in play I have to say it's very situational. I regard it as a waste of a feat for the character concerned.

YMMV

[White_Drake]

Well, there's also the initiative bonus, that's nice. Generally I start a combat by asking my DM what I see, and then he responds by saying he just told me what was in the room and asking if I want to spend a round studying the situation to gain further insight. For me it's a really nice feat, just because I hate running blind, and it means I can be constantly making spot checks. It would probably be a lot more useful if you got a way to take ten on spot and or listen checks, that way you can just tell your DM you see anything which requires a spot check under X.

[elonin]

Thanks for the responses. Many of the DM's I've played with only used spot/listen checks at the beginning of combat to check for surprise. Most also engineered it so that regardless of the terrain the enemy would get the drop on you. Even when on a plain during a sunny day, while traveling at the top of a ridge for maximal sight. This makes me consider never playing a skill monkey again. Same groups make using stealth skills impossible.

Out of combat use seems limited since it is the player's responsibility to use the feat and in that mode there are no rounds. Can anyone suggest a modifier for the "got ambushed" rolls when you have this feat and are being attentive? Something on the order of a second roll to account for the free one? I'd prefer a chance to take a crack at it before the rest of the party, though that can be problematic.

[elonin]

Well, there's also the initiative bonus, that's nice. Generally I start a combat by asking my DM what I see, and then he responds by saying he just told me what was in the room and asking if I want to spend a round studying the situation to gain further insight. For me it's a really nice feat, just because I hate running blind, and it means I can be constantly making spot checks. It would probably be a lot more useful if you got a way to take ten on spot and or listen checks, that way you can just tell your DM you see anything which requires a spot check under X.

I have tried to use the feat that way and have heard the complaint that I slowed the game down.


It's not just another roll, but also the chance to make that roll without explicitly spending a move action. In my experience nobody uses a move action Spot or Listen retry until they try to do something based on knowledge their character doesn't have, and I force it upon them as DM.

Player: I sunder that guy's spell component pouch.
DM: What spell component pouch? You never Spotted it!
Player: (Grumble, grumble.) I make a move action Spot retry. (Rolls, poorly.)
DM: You Spot items down to Tiny size within 10'. Your enemy is wearing a vest, a buckler, and a backpack, and carrying a rod.
Player: (Groans.) I make another move action Spot retry. (Rolls.)
DM: You Spot all items (Fine size and above) within 10'. Your enemy is also wearing two rings, a headband, an amulet, and a belt with two pouches and a sheathed dagger.

The games I play in make spot an iffy skill. There are times dm's want to hand you information, in which case someone will by random chance make the roll. I doubt if having more than 10 ranks makes sense in these groups.

[DEMON]

Well, there's also the initiative bonus, that's nice.

This. It's Improved Initiative lite + the spot and listen check rerolls. Also it stacks with the aforementioned Improve Initiative and most other initiative boosts, so that's something, too.

While it may not be the best feat ever, it has it's uses, especially to a scout character, for whom a failed perception check can prove disastrous at times (even more so, that for the rest of the party).

[Person_Man]

This makes me consider never playing a skill monkey again. Same groups make using stealth skills impossible.

If it's important to you, you may want to consider a Wildshape Ranger, Psychic Rogue, or multi-class Incarnate build.

Wildshape Ranger can change into animals with racial Hide/Move Silently bonuses. And even if you're found, you're still just an animal. So unless your DM can think of a reason that the hoard of evil Orcs would stop to kill a bird in the woods 50 feet away, you're still basically hidden and can set up an ambush.

Psychic Rogue gets the Compression ability, which lets you decrease your size by two steps, giving you a net +4 Dex and +8 Hide. If you start as a Small race, you can basically crawl under doors, through narrow drains and whatnot, etc. So even if you're in a perfectly flat field, you can still hide in the grass and behind Tiny rocks.

Incarnate or Totemist just has an easy time adding +12ish or more to any Skill check. So even a low level Whisper Gnome Rogue 2/Incarnate 3 ends up with something like d20 + 25ish to your checks. At higher levels, Totemist also gets access to a really weird/cool globe of darkness thing, where he basically gets Greater Invisibility against everyone in the globe. So it's very easy for him to set up ambushes in dark areas.

On top of that, there's dozens of ways to get Hide in Plain Site.

So even if your DM hates the stealth rules, there are ways to still incorporate stealth in non-traditional ways.

[elonin]

First I have seen a number of your posts and have great respect for your opinion even if you don't recognize me since I lurk quite a bit.

I had considered the Lurk before and thought it has promise. Then I thought that it has the potential to be less than a standard rogue once power points run out. That might be faulty reasoning since a wizard who runs out of spells is no longer tier 1 exactly.