CRing for minions?

[NotScaryBats]

I have two PCs in my level 8 Gestalt Game, a Wight // Shadowcaster that currently possesses 4 Wights, and a Cleric/Prestige Paladin (of Tyranny) // Dread Necromancer that currently possesses a Bleakborn.

How do I CR my encounters?

The 4 Wights alone are a EL 8 encounter (4 CR 4 creatures), the Bleakborn is a CR 7 alone (every humanoid it kills is raised as a zombie), and the two PCs are pretty hardcore, obviously.

The PCs are in a human city of Pelor-worshippers, so lots of humans that can become wights and zombies, obviously.

[Kelb_Panthera]

CR 9-10 is still appropriate, just as it would be for any gestalt level 8 game. The trick is to account for the party's action economy advantage by constructing those CR 9-10 encounters with groups with multiple smaller enemies instead of 1 big one. One CR 7 creature supported by 3 CR 5's adds up to a CR 9 encounter.

You can also use terrain advantages against the paladin and his bleakborn. The classic divide and conquer strategy should be effective. Have some enemies that the wight and his minions can reach that the paladin and his can't. When the wight goes after those, another set of enemies springs from hiding to try and take down the paladin. Now you're effectively running two, much more manageable combats at once.

[NotScaryBats]

So, even though there are only two PCs, I should still EL like there are four?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, even though there are only two PCs, I should still EL like there are four?

Oh, oops. Forgot that bit. No, you'll wanna aim for around EL 7-8 to account for the fact there are only two PC's.

The previous advice was generalized advice for dealing with minion-mancers in general.

Don't forget that while their team gets 7 sets of actions each turn, at present, 5 of those are being taken by creatures of significantly less power than the other 2. In-spite of its CR 7, the power of a bleakborn is noteably less than an 8th level dark paladin and the ability of a bog-standard wight is a joke next to any 8th level character even in a normal game. I'm also betting that the players haven't put any gear on those undead either. They're definitely something to take into account, but unless they become heavily modified by gear or magic it's probably best just to treat them as very active abilities of the PC's.

[awa]

it partially depends on how that use them 5 human zombies attacking a level 8 creature is a joke but 5 zombies using aid another action to give a power attacker +10 to hit is very usefull

[Kelb_Panthera]

it partially depends on how that use them 5 human zombies attacking a level 8 creature is a joke but 5 zombies using aid another action to give a power attacker +10 to hit is very usefull

But them choosing to do that is roughly equivalent to half of a quickened true-strike. If they're not actively harming the enemy, as opposed to boosting their master, then their side loses the action economy advantage. They're just a buff with HP's.

[awa]

true but a 2 hd zombie that just swings at cr 8 targets aren't going to be hurting anyone either.

[Kelb_Panthera]

true but a 2 hd zombie that just swings at cr 8 targets aren't going to be hurting anyone either.

Which is why they don't significantly add anything to the party that they couldn't have aquired some other way.

You really need to look at some very special or heavily modified minions if you want to take them into account when deciding what EL the challenges you build should be.

At level 8, the zombies the bleakborn makes will be a non-issue as long as they're mostly former humans.

[Zombimode]

Why don't you just use an encounter calculator, like the one (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) provided in the SRD?

Its fast, convenient and accurate. The only reason not to use it is not having a working internet connection, but since you have posted on this board...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why don't you just use an encounter calculator, like the one (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) provided in the SRD?

Its fast, convenient and accurate. The only reason not to use it is not having a working internet connection, but since you have posted on this board...

There's also the issue of baseline CR's not necessarily reflecting the full scope of the challenge a given creature presents or how two creatures that are particularly synergistic might push the EL of an encounter featuring both higher than their combined CR would suggest.

Such a calculator is a good starting point but that's all it is.

[awa]

the calculator particularly breaks down when dealing with real big numbers. which this party could do with little difficulty.

for example 20 zombie humans is not even remotely a cr 7 encounter by itself

and 100 is not even close to cr 11