Question about Meta Magic and Item creation

[Yogibear41]

First post on these forums! wish me luck ha.

Anyway my questions involve using meta-magic feats in item creation.
Specifically if you can use them on non-scroll/potions/wands and other similar items.

The idea that I'm trying to use is making a magic item say a necklace or ring with a quickened cure light wounds spell with infinite charges thereby allowing me to heal myself as a free action once per round.

Looking at the dungeon masters guide the pricing guide for a use activated item is Spell level x caster level x 2000 gp

Spell level would be 5 due to the quickened meta-magic feat but I'm not sure if the caster level could be set at 1 since the spell is a level 1 spell or if it would have to be set at 5 to match the adjusted spell level.

There is another formula for a command word activated effect its the same as above but the 2000 is 1800, but I wanted the activation to be triggered my a mental thought in case for some reason I was unable to speak.

Basically other than the questions I stated I wanted to know if all of this makes sense, I'm still fairly new at the game so if something is obviously wrong with this forgive me.

[Jeraa]

Spell level would be 5 due to the quickened meta-magic feat but I'm not sure if the caster level could be set at 1 since the spell is a level 1 spell or if it would have to be set at 5 to match the adjusted spell level.

The caster level would have to be a minimum of 9. A quickened cure light wounds takes up a 5th level slot, and a caster level of 9 is the minimum for 5th level spells.

This item is not a use-activated item. Use-activated items are things like Lanterns of Revealing, which work when you use it normally (in this case, by lighting the lantern.) Your ring (or whatever) would be a command-activated item. However, as far as I know, there is no why to make it purely a mental command.

[andromax]

Take a look at Close Wounds (SpC) 2nd lvl immediate action spell.
Will be cheaper and a better action. Less HPs though.

[bobthe6th]

Would argue that adding metamagic should cost something like adding a feat known... Or like a ring of evasion.

though a item of fast healing would be better.

[andromax]

For the end user, there is no need for the feat. That is settled by the creator (who pays additional xp, commensurate to the additional base price) and the end user (who pays more golds).



Magic Items and Metamagic Spells

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

[bobthe6th]

Huh. I never knew that was a thing. I thought you specifically couldn't add that to magic items. Cool.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The caster level would have to be a minimum of 9. A quickened cure light wounds takes up a 5th level slot, and a caster level of 9 is the minimum for 5th level spells.

This item is not a use-activated item. Use-activated items are things like Lanterns of Revealing, which work when you use it normally (in this case, by lighting the lantern.) Your ring (or whatever) would be a command-activated item. However, as far as I know, there is no why to make it purely a mental command.

It takes up a 5th level slot but it's still only a first level spell.

This becomes clear when you note that a caster can use slots for spells of a higher level than he can cast, due to his key ability being too low, to cast metamagicked versions of spells that he can cast. If the cleric in question had Wis 14 he couldn't cast any 5th level cleric spells, but he could still cast a 4th level spell that was extended or widened, for example.

It's further clarified when you look at heighten spell's description and note that spells to which that metamagic is applied actually do count as higher level spells.

The cost would be, in my estimation, CL X Spell Level X 1800 for a command activated item. 1 X 5 X 1800 = 9000 for an item that could be activated as a swift action. The 2000gp constant for a use-activated item is inappropriate because the spell being produced has no duration and a ring isn't used it's simply worn.

[Yogibear41]

Thanks for the advice guys, for a few of your points I guess I should have clarified what I was going to do better.

I plan on making the item myself taking the item creation feat I need as well as the quicken metamagic feat for that purpose. I am also playing a druid so the close wounds spell won't work for me since its a cleric spell (was a really good suggestion though thanks)

I wanted to store the spell in something other than a wand, scroll, or potion so Im not even sure if I can apply a metamagic feat to a different type of item. The PH says you can apply it to those items as andromax quoted, but I can't find anywhere else that says if you can or cannot apply it to other items such as an amulet or ring.

Bob my original idea was to make a fast healing item but to get fast healing 4 would require me to use a 6th level spell (greater vigor) at a minimum of caster level 11 for 6x11x2000 x another 4 since the original spell is measured in rounds by caster level which is alot more than 5x9x1800 for 1d8+5 healing a round as a swift action. Assuming of course I can make an item using the quickened metamagic feat.

If in fact I can't do the quickened metamagic feat, I think I read in the rules somewhere that some one else can provide the spell needed to creat the magic item. In that case could I have the cleric in my party provide the Close wounds spell that was previously suggested?

[Deophaun]

The caster level has to be at least the minimum level you can cast the spell. Since it requires a 5th level slot, then the CL is going to be 9 baring tricks with versatile spellcaster and the like. It also has to be a command-word activated item.

So 5 X 9 X 1,800 = 81,000 gp.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The caster level has to be at least the minimum level you can cast the spell. Since it requires a 5th level slot, then the CL is going to be 9 baring tricks with versatile spellcaster and the like. It also has to be a command-word activated item.

So 5 X 9 X 1,800 = 81,000 gp.

The rule is that you can't cast a -spell- at a CL lower than the minimum necessary to cast the spell. What we're discussing is the spell Cure Light Wounds, and it's being modified by a metamagic. The spell is still a first level spell and as such it only requires CL 1 to cast. The metamagic makes it take up a higher slot but that's irrelevant to the minimum caster level because the minimum caster level applies to spells, not spell-slots.

Also, there's no actual minimum caster level rule. The rule that a spell can't be cast below the minimum necessary to cast that spell references a rule that doesn't exist. There's a minimum class level at which a cleric can cast CLW; level 1, since thats when he gets 1st level spell-slots; but class level and caster level are only loosely connected and no minimum is ever established for spells of any level or any class.

The minimum of CL 1 for CLW is only implied in that it is the normal caster level of a cleric when he first gains access to the spell.

[andromax]

The rule is that you can't cast a -spell- at a CL lower than the minimum necessary to cast the spell. What we're discussing is the spell Cure Light Wounds, and it's being modified by a metamagic. The spell is still a first level spell and as such it only requires CL 1 to cast. The metamagic makes it take up a higher slot but that's irrelevant to the minimum caster level because the minimum caster level applies to spells, not spell-slots.

Also, there's no actual minimum caster level rule. The rule that a spell can't be cast below the minimum necessary to cast that spell references a rule that doesn't exist. There's a minimum class level at which a cleric can cast CLW; level 1, since thats when he gets 1st level spell-slots; but class level and caster level are only loosely connected and no minimum is ever established for spells of any level or any class.

The minimum of CL 1 for CLW is only implied in that it is the normal caster level of a cleric when he first gains access to the spell.

The minimum caster level for a spell cast from a 5th level spell slot is 9 (or 10 if you're a sorc etc).

Are you claiming you are able to create a 5th lvl scroll with a (as minimum)caster level of 1? Or create any magic item as such?

[Vaz]

Provided you know the spell. No casting of Time Stop at ECL1, unless a class actually has access to Time Stop as a 0-level spell.

If a Fireball was on a 0Level spell list, and it was made as a Scroll by a Caster with only 0 level spells, then there would be no damage (damage per Caster Level).

If it was a Scroll made by a Caster with Caster Level 12, then it would do damage as if a 12th level Caster had cast the spell.

[Mato]

Also, there's no actual minimum caster level rule. The rule that a spell can't be cast below the minimum necessary to cast that spell references a rule that doesn't exist. There's a minimum class level at which a cleric can cast CLW; level 1, since thats when he gets 1st level spell-slots; but class level and caster level are only loosely connected and no minimum is ever established for spells of any level or any class.The rules note two very important things.
1. Magic items note they use the minimum caster level, in example it is per Wizard/Cleric advancement (rather than obscure alt base classes).
2. You can choose to cast at a lower than your current value CL, but you cannot choose a CL lower than the minimum level required to cast the spell.

Now, in case you missed it. D&D is not a legal document that is utterly complete and detailed to compensate for moronality proceedings. And even so, legal writings, such as bills passed in the U.S.A take years with thousands of hands working on it and the best they can achieve is requiring something called a "judge" to handle it afterwards. So if the rules allude to a rule, and this rule is noted, demonstrated, and used else where, then quite obviously it exists.

What I'm saying here is the lack of rules is not rules. Reread it. Learn it. Memorize it. It is your bible. It is the only truth that you'll ever know in life.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The minimum caster level for a spell cast from a 5th level spell slot is 9 (or 10 if you're a sorc etc). Citation?

It's almost certainly what was intended. I don't disagree with that idea at all. It's not, however, actually printed anywhere in the RAW.


Are you claiming you are able to create a 5th lvl scroll with a (as minimum)caster level of 1? Or create any magic item as such?

Define 5th level scroll. If it's a scroll containing a 5th level spell, such as cone of cold, then no. While it's not explicitly written anywhere, the intended rule is that you can't cast a spell at a caster level lower than the level at which you first gain access to the spell, 9 for a wizard in this case.

If, on the other hand, you're talking about a scroll containing a metamagicked spell whose equivalent spell level is 5th, such as quickened scorching ray, then yes. Scorching ray is a 1st level spell and the modifications of metamagic (except heighten) don't change that. It's still subject to globe of invulnerability, it's dc is still set as a first level spell, and it still only burns off 1 level from a rod of absorption. You could make the scroll at CL 1 since the earliest you can cast the spell is wizard 1. The fact that you couldn't quicken it until 9th level is irrelevant.

The cost of such would be 1 X 5 X 25 or 125gp. An extra hundred gold for a spell that can be cast in a shorter action but that otherwise functions in all ways as though it were a first level spell doesn't strike me as unreasonable. A scroll that produces the effect of a first level spell in a shorter action costing the same as a scroll that casts a much more powerful 5th level spell in the normal time does. 9X5X25=2025gp, btw.

[andromax]

Citation?

It's almost certainly what was intended. I don't disagree with that idea at all. It's not, however, actually printed anywhere in the RAW.


I'd just link their spell casting progression but.. nah


The fact that you couldn't quicken it until 9th level is irrelevant.

This is where I disagree, though I can see why you think that, but;


...the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll...

Until you can find a way for a lvl 1 caster to scribe quickened scrolls (there probably is, actually) I don't buy it.

My opinion in your game is irrelevant, however.

[TuggyNE]

If, on the other hand, you're talking about a scroll containing a metamagicked spell whose equivalent spell level is 5th, such as quickened scorching ray, then yes. Scorching ray is a 1st level spell and the modifications of metamagic (except heighten) don't change that. It's still subject to globe of invulnerability, it's dc is still set as a first level spell, and it still only burns off 1 level from a rod of absorption. You could make the scroll at CL 1 since the earliest you can cast the spell is wizard 1. The fact that you couldn't quicken it until 9th level is irrelevant.

Not that it matters, but scorching ray is Sor/Wiz 2.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not that it matters, but scorching ray is Sor/Wiz 2.

Burning hands then. It's a better comparison anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd just link their spell casting progression but.. nah



This is where I disagree, though I can see why you think that, but;

Until you can find a way for a lvl 1 caster to scribe quickened scrolls (there probably is, actually) I don't buy it.

My opinion in your game is irrelevant, however.

Level, in that sentence, is refering to the caster level of the character. "The scroll's caster level is the minimum [caster] level required for the character who scribed the scroll." If they'd intended character level they'd've said "character level" or "equivalent to the minimum level." The absence of the word caster in that spot in the sentence, as it's printed, doesn't mean or even imply that they're talking about some other level.

More importantly, since quickening the spell doesn't increase its effective spell level, only the slot it's cast from, a 9th level wizard -can- cast a quickened burning hands at CL 1.

"Why would he?" you ask. Because he's trying to take the target alive but doesn't have non-lethal substitution and is trying to force a surrender, because he's in a non-lethal spell duel, because he's trying to drive off a creature that's afraid of fire without killing it, because he wants the target to be dropped but not outright killed, or any of a number of other reasons I couldn't think of off the top of my head.

[Mato]

Can you use a metamagic feat when creating items?
Yes; calculate the magic item’s price using the new spell level (as adjusted by the metamagic feat). A wand of maximized cure light wounds, for example, would cost 21,000 gp (spell level 4 times caster level 7 times 750 gp). You couldn’t make a wand of maximized cure moderate wounds, because that’s a 5th-level spell, which is beyond the spell level limit of a wand. If you’re not using the spell’s level to calculate the price, remember to estimate the price using the improved potency of the effect for comparison (rather than using the non-metamagic version of the spell).
Extra characters.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Extra characters.

Rules of the game articles, the faq, and sage answers are not RAW.

They're one writer making a judgement call after reviewing the rules, just like any of us would do.

Even if that was written by Monte Cook, Jhon Tweet, or Skip Williams, the designers responsible for the DMG, there's no guarantee that it's the one that actually wrote the rules being referenced and no guarantee that he asked the designer or designers that were responsible for them what they intended. Even if it was, the faq wasn't written within a short enough period of time from when the DMG was written to reasonably expect that what he intended was still fresh enough in his mind that he definitely made the same call twice.

Basically; errata or it didn't happen.

[andromax]

Basically; errata or it didn't happen.

Without getting too personal, I think your argument is pretty weak. With that said, I agree they weren't explicit enough. However I think that they got the idea across that what you're attempting isn't possible.

For instance;


...Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. For example, a caster could heighten a spell’s level to increase its effectiveness, or quicken a spell to allow it to be used as a free action, placing it within an item at the higher metamagic level.

And since the higher metamagic level for your scroll of Quickened Burning Hands is now 5.



A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but
never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.


And then simply looking at the PHB gives us further evidence.



Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic
spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared
and cast as a higher-level spell.


I really don't think you can justify it, but I'll leave it at that and you can deny it all you want.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Without getting too personal, I think your argument is pretty weak. With that said, I agree they weren't explicit enough. However I think that they got the idea across that what you're attempting isn't possible.

For instance;



And since the higher metamagic level for your scroll of Quickened Burning Hands is now 5.



And then simply looking at the PHB gives us further evidence.




I really don't think you can justify it, but I'll leave it at that and you can deny it all you want.

Your last quote there is the relevant one. If a metamagicked spell is in all ways equivalent to a spell of its normal level, why doesn't that include minimum caster level? Caster level isn't set at preparation so that bit doesn't matter and it being cast as a higher level spell doesn't include the increased difficulty represented by a higher minimum ability score.

Again let's look at some examples. We'll use that maximized CLW from the faq example.

It's a fourth level equivalent spell that produces 13hp worth of healing under your interpretation.

How does it make sense that it should cost the same as cure critical wounds which produces 4d8 +7 (for a minimum of 11 an average of 25 and a maximum of 39) points of healing.

The minimum is comparable, the average is almost double, and if the caster gets lucky he's going to get triple the effect out of the latter.

If on the other hand the former is 9 points of healing for 100gp and the latter is around 25 for 700gp that's a bit more sensible. (still not a good buy, but better.)

[andromax]

Your last quote there is the relevant one. If a metamagicked spell is in all ways equivalent to a spell of its normal level, why doesn't that include minimum caster level?

It doesn't say in all ways equivelant. It says in all ways operates (ie, it's effect). Which is what you're getting hung up on.

It then goes on to say it is prepared and cast as a higher level spell.

You were right about the Aiming the Spell debate in the other thread, but not about this :smallwink:

[Kelb_Panthera]

It doesn't say in all ways equivelant. It says in all ways operates (ie, it's effect). Which is what you're getting hung up on.

It then goes on to say it is prepared and cast as a higher level spell.

The effect is not the entirety of what's included in operates, though. If it was then the quickened burning hands from my previous example would penetrate a globe of invulnerability since it's a 5th level spell. It should also require an int of at least 15.

"Operates" has to include more than just the end effect, unless you're arguing that the previous two sentences are correct.

If it does include more than just the end effect, why isn't minimum caster level one of the things covered?

[andromax]

The effect is not the entirety of what's included in operates, though. If it was then the quickened burning hands from my previous example would penetrate a globe of invulnerability since it's a 5th level spell. It should also require an int of at least 15.

"Operates" has to include more than just the end effect, unless you're arguing that the previous two sentences are correct.

If it does include more than just the end effect, why isn't minimum caster level one of the things covered?

Yes you're correct I chose I poor word. Let's just say that it "Operates" at it's original spell level in all ways, except in how you are able to cast it. In this case you cast it as a 5th level spell, and the minimum caster level for a 5th level spell is 9 for a wizard. Still acts like a 1st level spell. Even smells like it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes you're correct I chose I poor word. Let's just say that it "Operates" at it's original spell level in all ways, except in how you are able to cast it. In this case you cast it as a 5th level spell, and the minimum caster level for a 5th level spell is 9 for a wizard. Still acts like a 1st level spell. Even smells like it.

Except it's not cast as a 5th level spell. If it was it would require int 15. It's cast like any spell the wizard prepared and comes from a 5th level slot.

[andromax]

Except it's not cast as a 5th level spell. If it was it would require int 15. It's cast like any spell the wizard prepared and comes from a 5th level slot.

It does require a Int of 15, and a wizard that doesn't have an Int of 15 doesn't get any 5 level slots.. so I'm not sure where you are going with that.



Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic
spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared
and cast as a higher-level spell.

Comparing the underlined parts, do you see where you may be incorrect?

[Kuulvheysoon]

It does require a Int of 15, and a wizard that doesn't have an Int of 15 doesn't get any 5 level slots.. so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

Actually...


These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

[nedz]

Until you can find a way for a lvl 1 caster to scribe quickened scrolls (there probably is, actually) I don't buy it.

Sudden Quicken — but that's a mad feat. You would have to have to be Human Wizard 11/ Cleric 1 minimum to qualify, and be using the Cleric half.

BTW it might be useful to chase down an actual item in the SRD or MIC where metamagic has been used — otherwise we will never have a conclusion. I can't think of one mind.

[Jeraa]

BTW it might be useful to chase down an actual item in the SRD or MIC where metamagic has been used — otherwise we will never have a conclusion. I can't think of one mind.

There are several in the Dungeon Masters Guide. However, they all use Heighten Spell, which raises the spells level for all purposes. None of the other metamagic feats are put into a core item.

[andromax]

Actually...
Right.. my bad. Essentially the same effect though. No 5th level spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It does require a Int of 15, and a wizard that doesn't have an Int of 15 doesn't get any 5 level slots. so I'm not sure where you are going with that.The underlined simply isn't true. PHB pg 178 under spell slots
A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwsid be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of a lower level.

So even a wizard with int 9 has spell slots. He just couldn't fill them with anything. They could still be useful for class-features or feats that burn off spell-slots for some other effect.



Comparing the underlined parts, do you see where you may be incorrect?

I can see where it's a point of contention.

I'd swear I remember reading somewhere that a metamagicked spell that's not heightened didn't require a higher ability mod, but I'm having trouble finding it and I can't say with absolute certainty that it wasn't a rules of the game or sage article and that it wasn't in the FAQ.

I'll make a new thread and see if anyone else knows where to find it.

[Gabe the Bard]

I think one of the Vigor spells would still be more efficient, since they have a duration, so you only need to cast it once per encounter.

I'm not sure how much more it would cost to give the item infinite charges... but presumably a LOT. By the time you're able to make it, you may be beyond the point where 4 hp per round is really meaningful.

But more importantly, would using this item once per round count as a swift action or a quickened spell? If it uses up a limited action, that's another reason to go with a spell that has a duration instead.

[Jeraa]

I'm not sure how much more it would cost to give the item infinite charges... but presumably a LOT. By the time you're able to make it, you may be beyond the point where 4 hp per round is really meaningful.

Actually, the pricing formulas are for infinite use/infinite charge items. Making them have limited charges reduces the cost.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think one of the Vigor spells would still be more efficient, since they have a duration, so you only need to cast it once per encounter.

I'm not sure how much more it would cost to give the item infinite charges... but presumably a LOT. By the time you're able to make it, you may be beyond the point where 4 hp per round is really meaningful.

But more importantly, would using this item once per round count as a swift action or a quickened spell? If it uses up a limited action, that's another reason to go with a spell that has a duration instead.

A quickened spell is a swift action.

[andromax]

The underlined simply isn't true. PHB pg 178 under spell slots

So even a wizard with int 9 has spell slots. He just couldn't fill them with anything. They could still be useful for class-features or feats.....I'll make a new thread and see if anyone else knows where to find it.
Yeah I rectified that in the post just above yours but it was still a dumb miss-speak on my part.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah I rectified that in the post just above yours but it was still a dumb miss-speak on my part.

Now that I look, it appears I missed my spot check Vs some ninjas. That does explain the shuriken I just pulled out of my butt. :smalltongue: