How to restrain a Psion? (Also looking for suggestions on being sneaky)

[Nettlekid]

Hey all, in a Neutral/Evil campaign that I'm currently in, we've recently captured a werewolf that we need to interrogate. The problem with this capturing is that he's an Elocator, with all manner of psionic teleportation powers at his disposal. He's currently knocked out and tied up, but I'm worried that the moment he comes to, he'll just warp away. He needs no somatic or even verbal components to do so and can manifest defensively, so apart from "I prepare action to knock him unconscious when he awakens," which wouldn't be too helpful for interrogation, I don't know what we can do.

Here's what we have to work with. We're all level 11.
A half-orc barbarian Eye of Gruumsh, standard charger build.
A tiefling Dervish with a great move speed.
A human Shadow Sun Ninja.
A kobold Wizard who focuses on Enchantment and party buffs.
A human Warlock.
And me, a changeling Factotum.

Logic points to the wizard to find a way to stop this, but I don't know if he can. Since 2/3 of the party can't use any sort of extradimensional travel (I'll explain why below) teleportation spells and counters were never his priority, so I don't think he has Dimensional Anchor. I also doubt he has Antimagic Field, since other 6th level spells would be a priority. He does a lot of Enchantment, so I suppose he could Suggest that the Elocator not warp away, but that's kind of iffy (especially since our DM usually lets his bosses autopass Save or Sucks for plot's sake.)
Of course, I'd love to be the hero of the day, so if there's anything anyone can think I could do to stop this, I'd love the suggestion. My full build is quite convoluted (being a dabbler). I'm a Changeling Rogue 1/Factotum 5/Marshal 1/Mindbender 1/Shadowdancer 1/Warblade 1/Exemplar 1. As a result I have NO attacking power, but I have 100 ft Mindsight which has been invaluable in this game, and fantastic skill checks that I can take 10 on most of. If a skillful character with that build can trap this Elocator, I'd love to hear how. I can get a 1st and 2nd level wizard/sorcerer spell each day, thanks to Factotum. Maybe a Rope Trick, so he has nowhere to warp to?


While we're on the subject of this campaign, I'd love to hear some people's advice for how I can be devious and sneaky. Here's the campaign setup.
It's a heavily homebrewed campaign kind of based on the show Supernatural, in that there are demons and angels. We're the bad guys, who are working for Hell. The Eye of Gruumsh and the Dervish are demons (or, mortal bodies possessed by demons) and the Shadow Sun Ninja and Wizard are angels (mortal bodies possessed by angels). The Warlock and I are normal mortals. Demons get some dark powers and can go into a 1 minute super killer mode (+6 to physical stats, -2 to mentals) among other things, while Angels have some light powers and can go into a similar but less broken mode. Both can raise themselves from the dead in 24 hours, and angels can raise mortals too, all without level loss. But demons and angels are both vulnerable to exorcism (which functions like a spell with a long casting time.)
During character creation, I suspected that the party would eventually betray each other (Evil campaign, working for the devil, reasonable assumption) and so seeing that the two heavy hitters also got a power mode, I knew I wouldn't be able to out-muscle them. So I've gone hyper-stealth. I have a Ring of Invisibility and Hide in Plain Sight, Darkstalker, and Hide and Move Silently in the 30s so NO ONE can find me. I only communicate via Telepathy, and often explore things on my own without telling the party. A recent great achievement of mine (in my opinion) was that before this werewolf, we had to find and interrogate this blood witch woman. I found her first and had a conversation with her, seeing if she couldn't arrange a meeting with her superiors. She was dismissive, and went to fight the party. After she was defeated, they gagged her so she couldn't cast spells, while they interrogated her through my telepathy. They then realized this was a bad idea, but it was too late. I got some information, then bartered about future services and arrangements we could make if I freed her and let her escape, which I then did. The rest of the party was confused to see her vanish, but hopefully that deal will come up again later. I was very happy with that sneaky and stealthy dealing, and want to do more like that in future. What are some of the best uses of high Rogue-style skill checks, like Sleight of Hand and Disable Device?

[Eldest]

How good's your Bluff? Because the first thing to come to mind is put a necklace on him, put a Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) on it, and then when he wakes up tell him (as a free, held action, if your DM is a stickler for how you're going to say this before he goes away) that it will kill him if he teleports, or even gets more than 30 feet away from [insert stubborn party member who is not you here]. Should keep him around, depending on how bluff works in your game.
As for how to contribute in combat, I'd recommend stealing the enemy's nice things. You know, magical necklaces, spell component bags, stuff like that. A small item is a DC 20, and a sheathed weapon is 50. Good luck hitting the 50 (it's an epic skill check), but that should give you an idea of what counts as a small item for the DC 20.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Any reason your party can't put together the cash for a set of psionic restraints? The 24000gp model completely blocks the subject's manifesting ability.

Even the 1000gp lesser model blocks any power over 3rd level from being available to him.

[andromax]

For 18k you could (non-lethally) send him to into a nightmare/terror filled coma (0 Wisdom) with a Mindcrusher weapon (MiC, +2 enhancement). Just be sure to take the -4 to hit if you want to speak with him when he eventually comes to with 0 power points.

Keep in mind if he has any Psi Like Abilities, he'll still have the use of them, potentially.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The brain-lock power coupled with the read thoughts power could get you where you wanna go too. He can't take any mental actions under the effect of the former but that doesn't mean he can't think. You just spam the latter until it gets through then "listen" to the answers as you ask him questions.

[tyckspoon]

Your best bet, IMO, would be to strip and Dispel the werewolf until you're sure he doesn't have any magical/psionic effects left on him.. and then have the Wizard Dominate him with an order to not do anything without permission (the Wizard does have Dominate Person, doesn't he? It's like *the* reason to have an Enchantment focus..) The only real problem there is the Wizard then has a psionic werewolf as a minion, which is probably not a comforting thought for the Evil portion of the party. But it'll let you interrogate him, and it'll prevent him from leaving, which otherwise is quite tricky. Largely because of Elocator level 3- you can prevent manifesting in several ways (I would have suggested ability damage; get his Int to 9 or less and he can't use any standard powers), but Elocator 3 grants a Supernatural (Psionic) Dimension Door, which is quite difficult to stop if you don't have an AMF/Dimensional Anchor available.

[Nettlekid]

How good's your Bluff? Because the first thing to come to mind is put a necklace on him, put a Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) on it, and then when he wakes up tell him (as a free, held action, if your DM is a stickler for how you're going to say this before he goes away) that it will kill him if he teleports, or even gets more than 30 feet away from [insert stubborn party member who is not you here]. Should keep him around, depending on how bluff works in your game.
As for how to contribute in combat, I'd recommend stealing the enemy's nice things. You know, magical necklaces, spell component bags, stuff like that. A small item is a DC 20, and a sheathed weapon is 50. Good luck hitting the 50 (it's an epic skill check), but that should give you an idea of what counts as a small item for the DC 20.

Those are both totally awesome ideas. I love the Magic Aura thing. And yes, my Bluff is pretty good. With taking 10, it's a 29, I think? 14 ranks, +3 Charisma, +2 Changeling. That should do, especially if a magic aura on the necklace or whatever makes it sound reasonable. And I haven't taken advantage of little thievery things yet, but that's a great idea. Most of our battles have been against hulking homebrew monsters that just smash, blast, or mind-control, so there hasn't been much to steal, but I'll keep it in mind if the opportunity arises against more normal opponents who use character classes.


Any reason your party can't put together the cash for a set of psionic restraints? The 24000gp model completely blocks the subject's manifesting ability.

Even the 1000gp lesser model blocks any power over 3rd level from being available to him.



For 18k you could (non-lethally) send him to into a nightmare/terror filled coma (0 Wisdom) with a Mindcrusher weapon (MiC, +2 enhancement). Just be sure to take the -4 to hit if you want to speak with him when he eventually comes to with 0 power points.

Keep in mind if he has any Psi Like Abilities, he'll still have the use of them, potentially.

A few problems with these. One, we're in the middle of a forest and we have to deal with this ASAP, so no trips to a town. Two, we don't have like any gold at all. We had our starting gold, got some rare magic items, but otherwise don't have any actual cash with which to buy things. And three, we don't want to spend money on something that we'll only need for a single encounter.


The brain-lock power coupled with the read thoughts power could get you where you wanna go too. He can't take any mental actions under the effect of the former but that doesn't mean he can't think. You just spam the latter until it gets through then "listen" to the answers as you ask him questions.

We don't have a manifester among us.


Your best bet, IMO, would be to strip and Dispel the werewolf until you're sure he doesn't have any magical/psionic effects left on him.. and then have the Wizard Dominate him with an order to not do anything without permission (the Wizard does have Dominate Person, doesn't he? It's like *the* reason to have an Enchantment focus..) The only real problem there is the Wizard then has a psionic werewolf as a minion, which is probably not a comforting thought for the Evil portion of the party. But it'll let you interrogate him, and it'll prevent him from leaving, which otherwise is quite tricky. Largely because of Elocator level 3- you can prevent manifesting in several ways (I would have suggested ability damage; get his Int to 9 or less and he can't use any standard powers), but Elocator 3 grants a Supernatural (Psionic) Dimension Door, which is quite difficult to stop if you don't have an AMF/Dimensional Anchor available.

Hm, that might work, but what I'm worried about is the DM saying he can't be Dominated until he's conscious, and then the moment he's conscious he might warp away. Or if we prepare action to Dominate as soon as he comes to, he might make his Will save and warp away anyway. And yeah, I'm glad you see why the Elocator thing makes this even harder than normal, because just finding Int poisons or something won't cut it with those warping class features. The Dominate might work though, if luck is on our side. And if not, the Mystic Aura thing makes good backup.

[ahenobarbi]

You could lower werewolf's intelligence below 10 to make it impossible for it to manifest. And make sure it doesn't have any gear that will let it teleport away.

[Crake]

An easy solution would be to curse him once or twice, assigning the -6 unnamed penalty to int or cha (whichever he uses as his manifesting stat, probably do both just to be sure, and hey, while you're at it, hit him with some -wis as well to help with the interrogation) so he cant manifest anything. Depending on how your DM interprets the saves while unconscious rule, doing so while he's knocked out can be auto-success.

e:f;b

As an 11th level factotum though, this should easily be within your ability to perform. Bestow Curse is a 4th level wizard spell, so just prep a set of 4 or so curses. The only issue could be potentially high casting stats. Normally 18 + level/hit dice adjustments, so -6 might not cover enough, might need to double up to -12. But then you don't have the ability to cover wisdom if he bases his manifesting from psychic warrior. Might have to keep him knocked out for a second day to get wis covered.

As for the dimension door issue, you should be able to cover that too, Dimensional anchor is also a 4th level spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An easy solution would be to curse him once or twice, assigning the -6 unnamed penalty to int or cha (whichever he uses as his manifesting stat, probably do both just to be sure, and hey, while you're at it, hit him with some -wis as well to help with the interrogation) so he cant manifest anything. Depending on how your DM interprets the saves while unconscious rule, doing so while he's knocked out can be auto-success.

e:f;b

As an 11th level factotum though, this should easily be within your ability to perform. Bestow Curse is a 4th level wizard spell, so just prep a set of 4 or so curses. The only issue could be potentially high casting stats. Normally 18 + level/hit dice adjustments, so -6 might not cover enough, might need to double up to -12. But then you don't have the ability to cover wisdom if he bases his manifesting from psychic warrior. Might have to keep him knocked out for a second day to get wis covered.

As for the dimension door issue, you should be able to cover that too, Dimensional anchor is also a 4th level spell.

Only spells tagged as harmless can affect an unconcious target without a save. The rule for voluntarily forgoeing a saving throw is that the spell must specify a willing target and that the target either declare himself willing or be unconcious.

A factotum can't prepare the same spell more than once. Dungeonscape page 16 last sentence of the third paragraph under Arcane Dilettante.

The debuffing him until he can't manifest is a solid idea though. There's still that (SU) teleport ability, though.

@the op;

you can target an unconcious enemy with dominate. He gets to make his saving throw normally, though. The caster inherently knows whether his spell succeeded or failed to affect the target.

A dimensional anchor spell would make dead-certain he couldn't teleport away for its duration. Then you only need normal restraints to hold him, though finding a way to prevent his manifesting is still a really good idea.

[andromax]

Only spells tagged as harmless can affect an unconcious target without a save.

How so? Where are you finding that?


....Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself
as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if
you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are
automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious
but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling,
paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

[Crake]

How so? Where are you finding that?

It really depends on the interpretation by the DM.

The rule which states unconscious characters are willing does so in the context of spells which require a willing target. But other rules also state that even spells which don't require willing targets can have the save forgone by a willing target.

I believe it goes RAW it works, RAI it does not.

As for multiple bestow curses, I read the passage wrong (read cannot as can), so you'd just need to do it over several days

[Kelb_Panthera]

How so? Where are you finding that?

Take another look at your quote there. The first sentence says that some spells require a willing target. The paragraph then goes on to explain what constitutes a willing target. The whole section is in reference to a subset of spells that only target willing creatures, which don't even have saving throws.

I was mistaken before. It's not that being willing allows harmless spells through, it's that the passage has nothing to do with saving throws.


A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. This is in the saving throws section.

It is a completely seperate rule because it's in reference to spells with saving throws, which spells that require willing targets do not offer.

For an example of why treating these two rules as related doesn't work, look at the spell nightmare (pg 257). It explicitly says that you don't complete the casting of the spell until the target is asleep. You don't roll a saving throw against a spell until the caster finishes casting it. If asleep is unconcious (sleep is never spelled out as a seperate condition and being asleep is being unconcious by its very definition) and unconcious is willing then the will save the spell offers is never actually rolled. It's a spell that can only target creatures that are willing when it takes effect.

If you really want to divorce these rules from their context, then you could also say that a character that's unconious automatically gives up -all- saving throws. If you coup-de-grace someone in their sleep, they automatically die with no dice rolled. Contact poison dripped on a sleeping target gets both its damage rolls without any chance ot resist. The few other spells that are designed to target a sleeping creature and offer a saving throw have no need for that saving throw to be offered because the target can't make it anyway.

Does that sound right to you?

[Rubik]

Level drain. If you knock him down to 1 HD he won't have those elocator/psion levels. And if you happen to kill him he'll rise as a werewolf wight, which you can then use Control Undead on and force him to talk to you.

Or you could just kill him and Speak With Dead.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Restraining a psion is easy. Just get them to stop thinking outside of the box. That box should be enough to hold them and their pesky thinking-magic. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

As others have said, your best bet is to charm/dominate him until you can acquire psionic restraints, a dimensional anchor, or both. That or keep him unconscious - you may be able to magic up some sleep poison (e.g. minor creation) to keep him under.

[kardar233]

As others have said, your best bet is to charm/dominate him until you can acquire psionic restraints, a dimensional anchor, or both. That or keep him unconscious - you may be able to magic up some sleep poison (e.g. minor creation) to keep him under.

Lizardfolk Sleep Poison from Serpent Kingdoms is a DC 17 contact poison that causes unconsciousness for hours as its secondary damage, so cover him in the stuff. I can't find an Intelligence poison that's entirely vegetable matter, so you'll have to watch out for that.

One thing to be wary of: if he's taken the skill, he may be able to use Autohypnosis checks to resist the poison while he's unconscious. That would be a nasty surprise.