Fun Times with Fell Drain

[Chilingsworth]

Ok, just had another (possibly evil) thought:

Could you apply felldrain to a Mage's Faithful Hound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesFaithfulHound.htm) spell? Or a Mage's Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesSword.htm) spell?

Or... how about the humble persistant blade spell? (can't link that since it's not core, but it's in the SpC. It's kinda like a mini mage's sword, except that it can flank.)

Also, what are your favorite things to do with fell drain?

[andromax]

You couldn't apply it to either.. but you already knew that.

[Chilingsworth]

You couldn't apply it to either.. but you already knew that.

No, actually, I didn't.

All those spells deal (or at least, can deal) damage, so why not?

Just fyi, my current character is the first time I've attempted building a character with any significant metamagic use in mind.

In the case of the hound, it would either be a 7th level spell, or would be it's usual level and I'd have to expend a 2nd level beguiler spellslot (usuable after I reach Ultimate Magus 10) With the Sword, it would have to be a 9th level spell (which I wont get till level 20, and wouldn't be worth it in any case.)

The persistant blade would be a 3rd level spell, or a 1st level spell plus a 2nd level beguiler spell (managable by the time I expect to get 2nd level beguiler spells.)

[andromax]

My apologies.. Those are both spells that summon things that do damage. Neither have a valid target or area.

Additionally, unless you are lucky and have a DM that is good at book keeping, he is not gonna reliably add up all those negative levels. Negative levels kind of slow the game down a bit IMO.

[ahenobarbi]

You can apply Fell Drain to "a spell that deals damage to foes". Both those spells deal damage to foes. Therefore you can apply Fell Drain to the spells.

[andromax]

You can apply Fell Drain to "a spell that deals damage to foes". Both those spells deal damage to foes. Therefore you can apply Fell Drain to the spells.

So by that logic you can apply Fell Drain to 'Magic Weapon'?

[Chilingsworth]

My apologies.. Those are both spells that summon things that do damage. Neither have a valid target or area.

Additionally, unless you are lucky and have a DM that is good at book keeping, he is not gonna reliably add up all those negative levels. Negative levels kind of slow the game down a bit IMO.

Ok, that makes sense. Although, I thought that explosive runes worked similiarly and was told I was wrong about that (i.e. that the feat, among others, would work on it. See my thread on explosive runes for more info.) So... :smallconfused:

Also, what about my second question: What are your favorite things to do with fell drain?

[ahenobarbi]

My apologies.. Those are both spells that summon things that do damage. Neither have a valid target or area.

By that reasoning you couldn't apply Fell Drain to any spell. For example Fireball doesn't deal damage. It summons a thing that deals damage.

EDIT:
Magic Weapon spell grants a bonus, it doesn't deal damage.
Mage’s Faithful Hound deals damage.

So Mage’s Faithful Hound is eligible for Fell Drain and Magic Weapon is not.

[Chilingsworth]

Wait, while I do want to know the answer, could you guys also spend at least a sentence or two on my second question? Please? :smallsmile:

[andromax]

Mage's Faithful Hound
Effect: Phantom watchdog

No..


Mage’s Sword
Effect: One sword

And... No.

[andromax]

By that reasoning you couldn't apply Fell Drain to any spell. For example Fireball doesn't deal damage. It summons a thing that deals damage.

EDIT:
Magic Weapon spell grants a bonus, it doesn't deal damage.
Mage’s Faithful Hound deals damage.

So Mage’s Faithful Hound is eligible for Fell Drain and Magic Weapon is not.

No, again.


A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area.


However, Yes. It's pretty simple.

[Chilingsworth]

:smallsigh:

should I get some marshmallows and roasting sticks, then? :smalltongue:

[TuggyNE]

Those are both spells that summon things that do damage.

If you want to be picky, acid splash, acid arrow, black tentacles, acid fog, wall of iron, and incendiary cloud do the same thing: summon (conjure) things that do damage. And that's just Core.

[ahenobarbi]

Mage's Faithful Hound
Effect: Phantom watchdog

No..


Mage’s Sword
Effect: One sword

And... No.

Check the wording of Fell Drain "you alter a spell that deals damage to foes". Both Faithful Hound and Mages Sword deal damage to enemies.

Also by your reasoning no spell qualifies.

[andromax]

:smallsigh:

should I get some marshmallows and roasting sticks, then? :smalltongue:

For the Fireball, that is eligible to Fell Drain? Undead marshmellows... ghostbusters... I think its been done.

[andromax]

Also by your reasoning no spell qualifies.
Not true at all. I used your example of fireball to show that it qualifies.

But hey if you have a DM that was born yesterday that will let you use that feat with either of those spells he linked.. more power to you.

[Chilingsworth]

Ok... well, as long as I have you spirited folks' attention, maybe I can add aa couple more facets to the question?

If you have a spell that deals damage over multiple rounds (say, acid fog of kelore's gravemist) and apply fell drain to it, does it deal 1 negative level per round, or just one negative level?

Also,

If you fell drain a magic missile, does it deal one negative level, one negative level per missile, or one negative level per targeted creature?

[ahenobarbi]

Also, what are your favorite things to do with fell drain?


should I get some marshmallows and roasting sticks, then? :smalltongue:

I think you figured it. The best use of Fell Drain is arguing internets :smallwink:

The feat description isn't very good so the best uses depend on DM:
- If you can use it on Cloud of Knives (PhB2) and Persist on top of that you can deal 1 negative level/round whole day long.
- If you can bestow multiple negative levels with one spell to the same creature spells damaging over time are good for it.
- It's nice on cantrips.
- It's nice on auto-hitting spells (Magic Missle).
- IIRC creatures killed by negative levels raise as Wights. So you can use Fell Drain to create minions.

[andromax]

Ok... well, as long as I have you spirited folks' attention, maybe I can add aa couple more facets to the question?

If you have a spell that deals damage over multiple rounds (say, acid fog of kelore's gravemist) and apply fell drain to it, does it deal 1 negative level per round, or just one negative level?
It would take a negative level any time it took damage from the spell.


Also,

If you fell drain a magic missile, does it deal one negative level, one negative level per missile, or one negative level per targeted creature?

That's a single attack, and is only 1 negative level. However you could affect multiple targets with Magic Missile, and likewise with the negative levels, like with an area attack spell.

[ahenobarbi]

Not true at all. I used your example of fireball to show that it qualifies.

So Fireball qualifies because it says in the description that it deals damage but Mage Sword despite description saying it deals damage. It doesn't make sense.

[ahenobarbi]

It would take a negative level any time it took damage from the spell.

The text is "any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level". So 1 negative level per living creature affected. Many DMs rule differently though.


That's a single attack, and is only 1 negative level.

Firstly it isn't an attack :smalltongue:
Secondly you could lunch missiles at different targets.

[andromax]

Firstly it isn't an attack :smalltongue:
Secondly you could lunch missiles at different targets.

I mentioned the latter, and the former well... :smallwink:

[andromax]

So Fireball qualifies because it says in the description that it deals damage but Mage Sword despite description saying it deals damage. It doesn't make sense.

I don't know what to tell you other than, the effect of the spells [Mage's Faithful Hound & Mage's Sword] aren't to damage an enemy, it's effect (unlike Acid splash, acid arrow, etc as tuggyne pointed out, which DO qualify) is a summoned creature or targeted object.

[TuggyNE]

I don't know what to tell you other than, the effect of the spells [Mage's Faithful Hound & Mage's Sword] aren't to damage an enemy, it's effect (unlike Acid splash, acid arrow, etc as tuggyne pointed out, which DO qualify) is a summoned creature or targeted object.

I'm having a little trouble figuring out how "Effect: One sword" is substantially different from "Effect: One missile of acid". (Maybe this is just because there's some aspect of Fell Drain I'm not familiar with; I don't have the book, after all.)

[Deophaun]

I don't know what to tell you other than, the effect of the spells [Mage's Faithful Hound & Mage's Sword] aren't to damage an enemy, it's effect (unlike Acid splash, acid arrow, etc as tuggyne pointed out, which DO qualify) is a summoned creature or targeted object.
Huh? Mage's Sword's effect is "one sword."
Acid Arrow's effect is "one arrow of acid."
Summon Monster I's effect is "one summoned creature."

They all have effects that then go and deal damage to something. If it works for acid arrow, it works for mage's sword it works for summon monster I.

Now, magic weapon, on the other hand, grants a damage bonus to a weapon. It is the weapon, not the spell, that deals damage, so you can't Fell-Drain it.

[andromax]

I'm having a little trouble figuring out how "Effect: One sword" is substantially different from "Effect: One missile of acid". (Maybe this is just because there's some aspect of Fell Drain I'm not familiar with; I don't have the book, after all.)

Compare Summon Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm) and Magic Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm).

Then compare Mage’s Faithful Hound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesFaithfulHound.htm) and Summon Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm).

With Summon Monster, Mage's Faithful Hound, and Mage's Sword the spell doesn't actually cause any damage - they cause an event that gives an opportunity for something else to cause damage.

Basically if it ends up with something like Summon Monster or Mage's Faithful Hound, where a creature has to make a separate attack roll to do damage, the spell is not doing damage. The creature is. Or the weapon is, or whatever it is that doesn't qualify.

[andromax]

Huh? Mage's Sword's effect is "one sword."
Acid Arrow's effect is "one arrow of acid."
Summon Monster I's effect is "one summoned creature."

They all have effects that then go and deal damage to something. If it works for acid arrow, it works for mage's sword it works for summon monster I.

Now, magic weapon, on the other hand, grants a damage bonus to a weapon. It is the weapon, not the spell, that deals damage, so you can't Fell-Drain it.

I think we can all agree it's a horrendously worded feat. All I'm trying to argue is that it only effects spells that deal damage, not spells that summon creatures that deal damage.



- IIRC creatures killed by negative levels raise as Wights. So you can use Fell Drain to create minions.

Keep in mind, that unless you are already a Wight you would need a way to control your new minions.

[lord_khaine]

And i disagree with you on the faithfull hound thing.

The hound isnt a summoned creature, its a spell effect that attacks people, and it should therefore bestov the negative level.

A good rule of tumb for distinguising between spell effects and actual summons would imo be to see if the spell creates something with HP's that can be attacked.

[andromax]

A good rule of tumb for distinguising between spell effects and actual summons would imo be to see if the spell creates something with HP's that can be attacked. I'd abide with that.

[Saintheart]

Anyway some of the favourite things I like to do with Fell Drain:

- Fire Seeds, Fell Drain'd. Nasty little BBEG trick when the heroes get to his innermost sanctum. Detonate Fire Seeds all around them.
- Overlapping Forbiddance spells, Fell Drain'd. Not only do I blast you for many d6s of untyped damage as you walk across a room, but I also suckify you by at least one level for each five foot step.
- Thunderhead, Fell Drain'd. There's nothing like coming up with a level one, Bugs Bunny-style spell which then sucks a level off the enemy.

[Drynwyn]

I believe the correct answer to this argument is: Ask your DM. Fell Drain is so vaguely worded you could interpret it as applicable to anything or nothing.

[Fouredged Sword]

Cloud of Knives is also a nasty thing to fell drain.

[JBento]

One of the way to handle Fell Drainability of a spell (the one I would use, for what it's worth) is: would it break invisibility?

If that method is used, neither spell is viable for Fell Drainability.

You MAY, however, want to pick up PHBII (iirc). There's a spell there that creates a blade that deals negative levels.

[nedz]

Evard's Black Tentacles.
AoE, Damage on a Grapple check, no save, no SR
But it's probably dubious.

[Chilingsworth]

Seems to me that the best only worthwhile fell drain candidates are spells with at least two of the following:

* Auto Hit

* No Save

* No SR

So, worthwhile spells would include:

Magic Missile and Sonic Snap (No save, Auto Hit)

Acid Splash, Orb Spells (No Save, No SR)

Explosive Runes (perhaps dubious) (Auto Hit, No Save (within 5ft)

The best spell I can think of, though: Kelore's Gravemist (Auto Hit, No Save, No SR)

Are there any instances where the above reasoning isn't true?

[Rubik]

The best spell I can think of, though: Kelore's Gravemist (Auto Hit, No Save, No SR)Also, Hail of Stone. 1st level and deals very little damage, but all three apply as well.

[Chilingsworth]

Also, Hail of Stone. 1st level and deals very little damage, but all three apply as well.

Thanks, I'd forgotten about that one! :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Also, Hail of Stone. 1st level and deals very little damage, but all three apply as well.

But it's a small area (4 squares) — so you would want to add in Sculpt Spell perhaps ? It is medium range though, which is good.

[Chilingsworth]

But it's a small area (4 squares) — so you would want to add in Sculpt Spell perhaps ? It is medium range though, which is good.

four squares can be enough if you do your battlefield control right. Also, if you're mostly interested in one HVT.

[Keld Denar]

I did a dragon flavored sorcerer who used it with Practical Metamagic. He was only level 6, but made extensive use of Sonic Snap and Magic Missile. Magic Missile is nice because you can spread the love around to 3ish foes once the trick comes online.

It's absolutely ridiculous with Sonic Weapon, if you allow that. So much pain...

[Chilingsworth]

I did a dragon flavored sorcerer who used it with Practical Metamagic. He was only level 6, but made extensive use of Sonic Snap and Magic Missile. Magic Missile is nice because you can spread the love around to 3ish foes once the trick comes online.

It's absolutely ridiculous with Sonic Weapon, if you allow that. So much pain...

Yeah, I don't think I'll be able to get any metamagic reducers, but If I can get Fell Drain to work with sonic weapon, I'll definately put that on our party's unarmed swordsage, maybe other partymember's weapons, too.