Apparently the question wasn't simple

[Amphetryon]

Q510
Do Shifters have any particular defensive benefit against Baleful Polymorph?

A510 (Yora): While shifters do have the shapeshifter subtype, they can't actually change forms. So they would not be able to return back to their "normal form" if under the effect of a polymorph spell, because they lack the ability to return to such a "normal form".

A510 (rockdeworld)
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baleful Polymorph
a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action (which ends the spell’s effect).

So, it's both? Or. . . .

[Big Fau]

This is going to be a very subjective question. RAW, yes. RAI, the rules for Baleful Polymorph were not written when Shifters existed, and thus were not included in it.

[Cog]

Shifters have the Shapechanger subtype, and have no rules text restricting them from the benefits or limits thereof. They can shrug off the effects of a Baleful Polymorph.

[Andreaz]

Shifters have the Shapechanger subtype, and have no rules text restricting them from the benefits or limits thereof. They can shrug off the effects of a Baleful Polymorph.Yeah, it's part of their subtype, not a distinct racial power.

[Answerer]

Shifters have the Shapechanger subtype, and have no rules text restricting them from the benefits or limits thereof. They can shrug off the effects of a Baleful Polymorph.
This. Yora is incorrect.

Arguing RAW vs. RAI is silly. The shapechanger subtype doesn't do that much, and fully half the new races in Eberron Campaign Setting use it. I'd like to think they knew what it did.

[KillianHawkeye]

The quoted section seems to be pretty clear to me. Shapechanger subtype = recovery from baleful polymorph spell. The spell's own specific rules are the determining factor here.

[rockdeworld]

Shifters have the Shapechanger subtype, and have no rules text restricting them from the benefits or limits thereof. They can shrug off the effects of a Baleful Polymorph.
This. Yora ninja'd me, so I didn't see her response until after I posted. I stand by what I said as far as RAW is concerned.

For RAI, I like to imagine a wizard hitting a shifter with it, smirking as his opponent turns into a frog, then dropping his jaw when the dude pops back into his normal shape and says "Nope!" :smalltongue:

[Hirax]

Well, baleful polymorph still causes all worn gear to fall at the victim's feet, even if their new form is capable of wearing it. Plus, the victim needs to waste a standard action to turn back into their regular form. If they want to pick their weapon back up, that's another move action, but then they're out of actions for the turn, and they're probably not going to be in a position to use more actions to get more of their gear. It's like dazing them for one turn, but better.

[The Dark Fiddler]

If it bothers you that Shifters, who can normally only make small-ish changest to their body, are completely able to revert to their original form when affected by a baleful polymorph, just imagine that they have to actually reform their entire body every time they morph.

[Boci]

Just to be clear "a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action" is from savage species, and was not carried over into the 3.5 monster manual.

[Hirax]

Just to be clear "a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action" is from savage species, and was not carried over into the 3.5 monster manual.

It's in baleful polymorph's text now, so at the very least it applies with regards to that spell.

[Big Fau]

Just to be clear "a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action" is from savage species, and was not carried over into the 3.5 monster manual.

It was, but in the text of Baleful Polymorph:


Baleful Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows:

The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores).
The target retains its own hit points.
The target is treated as having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
The target also retains the ability to understand (but not to speak) the languages it understood in its original form. It can write in the languages it understands, but only the form is capable of writing in some manner (such as drawing in the dirt with a paw).
With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.

All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form.

If the new form would prove fatal to the creature (for example, if you polymorphed a landbound target into a fish, or an airborne target into a toad), the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.

If the subject remains in the new form for 24 consecutive hours, it must attempt a Will save. If this save fails, it loses its ability to understand language, as well as all other memories of its previous form, and its Hit Dice and hit points change to match an average creature of its new form. These abilities and statistics return to normal if the effect is later ended.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action (which ends the spell’s effect).

[Blisstake]

I'd like to think they knew what it did.

We'd all like to think that.

[Keld Denar]

Well, baleful polymorph still causes all worn gear to fall at the victim's feet, even if their new form is capable of wearing it. Plus, the victim needs to waste a standard action to turn back into their regular form. If they want to pick their weapon back up, that's another move action, but then they're out of actions for the turn, and they're probably not going to be in a position to use more actions to get more of their gear. It's like dazing them for one turn, but better.

Power Word: Naked!

[Sgt. Cookie]

Can I sig that Keld?

[Amphetryon]

Power Word: Naked!

But if they took the Vow of Nudity from this site, all you've done is activated their trap card. . . . :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

Considering my only contribution to this thread is a funny comment, sig away. My cult needs fresh blood anyway...

[OracleofWuffing]

But if they took the Vow of Nudity from this site, all you've done is activated their trap card. . . . :smallwink:
If they took the Vow of Nudity, you probably already knew they were a shifter before you casted.

[Phelix-Mu]

Wait, so lemme get this straight. My shifter druid can baleful polymorph herself?

Anybody else think that this opens up some awesome applications of using this spell as a disguise or way to avoid detection? Not that it improves combat utility, but if you can arrange to retain your intelligence, you gain a pretty interesting form of polymorph, arbitrarily long duration, very useful to mid-level druids that have traded out wild shape for some ACF (like the wild shifting class feature from the shifter substitution levels).

Even if you want to hide from a powerful enemy, you can have mental stats reduced, thus most divination reveals only an animal; I can see some kind of contingent spell being crafted to bring you back to normal form when certain conditions are met. I guess the character more-or-less becomes an npc while having reduced stats, though.

Please enlighten me if this is not the case. I'm not half as familiar with polymorph as the rest of you probably are.

[Ashtagon]

I'd rule that they can revert next time they use their shifter powers to shift.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd rule that they can revert next time they use their shifter powers to shift.

Seems to me that the character loses the power to shift, actually. I'm not clear about how polymorph affects your normal racial traits. But unless the polymorph spell specifies a change in type and subtype, shapechanger subtype is retained.

Hmm. If the character had been a shifter though and took shifter substitution levels, would the shifter lose access to those abilities while polymorphed, since you need to be a shifter to take them? Shifter isn't associated with a subtype, unlike elf or dwarf, so a loss of racial features may make the character unable to qualify for stuff that requires the racial component. I guess the character is still a shifter, although the permanent duration might suggest otherwise.... Aaah, confusing. Instantaneous duration would sound more permanent than permanent, actually.

[Amphetryon]

Given that Shifters weren't a thing when Baleful Polymorph was written, I'm considering the following houserule to create a compromise here:

A Shifter who fails a Fortitude save against a Baleful Polymorph is entitled to a second Fortitude save in the following round. Success means the Shifter retains the ability to revert back to her original form; failure means the spell affects the Shifter as it normally affects those without the shapeshifter subtype.

Full disclosure: This issue came up when one of my Players spun the Wheel of Destiny repeatedly with a Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) spell, finally landing on "other" and having that result come up as a Truedive Shifter. The original form was a Halfling.

[Deophaun]

Given that baleful polymorph was a thing when Shifters were written, I'd recommend against that house rule.

[Amphetryon]

Given that baleful polymorph was a thing when Shifters were written, I'd recommend against that house rule.

On the basis of. . . ?

[Deophaun]

On the basis of. . . ?
The opposite basis of the post I quoted, natch.

Is your issue that shifters are vastly overpowered, baleful polymorph is a spell in need of boosting, or that you want to make your house rule binder thicker?

[Amphetryon]

The opposite basis of the post I quoted, natch.

Is your issue that shifters are vastly overpowered, baleful polymorph is a spell in need of boosting, or that you want to make your house rule binder thicker?

None of the above hyperbolic reasons apply.

[Deophaun]

None of the above hyperbolic reasons apply.
Well, those are the only ones that necessitate any house rule. Sorry you consider them hyperbolic.

[Asheram]

Rules Compendium. P25 Baleful Polymorph

A creature of the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action, ending the spell’s effect.

It's still there after all the erratas and changes, so no fooling that.

I take it that can revert to its natural form as a standard action refers to its natural ability to change back into its normal shape from the assumed shape the shapechanger takes when it transforms.

[Answerer]

I strongly agree with Deophaun. The effect of baleful polymorph is plenty strong as it is, the Shifter race is really very weak, and this is just incredibly unnecessary.

[Psyren]

The question is pretty simple to me. Being a (shapechanger) gives the creature the knowledge/instinct to foil baleful polymorph. Shifters can turn it off - that's that.

If you want to rationalize it, say that even the shifter's minor changes alter it just enough to disrupt the magical energies of the spell. Magic is complex.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yay! Lizard-form for shifter druids!

I guess the only question left is can you forgo the save for the first part of the spell and still be allowed to make a save for the second effect?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yay! Lizard-form for shifter druids!

I guess the only question left is can you forgo the save for the first part of the spell and still be allowed to make a save for the second effect?

They're seperate saves, so I don't see why not. Having to roll a save against becoming as dumb as an animal every time you change shape seems to me to be far more risk than benefit though.