earth glide vs mindsight

[Venger]

okay, so:

we have character A who has the earth glide ability (source is unimportant, but let's say earth dreamer for the example)

he is fighting with character B and hops into a wall.

the srd says:


Earth Glide (Ex)
An earth elemental can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

character B has mindsight

now, mindsight is keyed off of blindsense, which is restricted by LoE. if B had a ping from A and he slipped into a wall, would it cut out immediately? would you treat it the same way you would if a character suddenly became invisible when you had no way of seeing invisibility?

if B were a telepath with that ACF that gives them telepathy and burrowing power, would they be able to locate A with mindsight since earth glide leaves no signs of A's presence? (assuming that as per burrowing power they were spying on the target with some kind of clairisentience power)

I'm really trying to figure out which here is rock and which is scissors. is someone with earth glide the ultimate hider who can evade even someone with mindsight, or is the classic mindsight with a side of burrowing power still able to detect him?

[Morcleon]

I would read the "other signs of its presence" as physical signs.

Mindsight is not keyed off blindsense. It uses blindsense as a reference for your convenience. It can detect anything with an intelligence score, including your earth glider (assuming said earth glider has one, and provided that he's within telepathy range).

Earth glide has no effect on mindsight.

[Stegyre]

I agree with Morclean, but I see a wrinkle: does Mindsight require line of effect? Because I would expect the earth to cut off LOE.

[Psyren]

Reread your quote: the burrowing creates no signs of its presence, but that says nothing about its mind giving it away, as normal per mindsight.

That's like an incorporeal creature making no sound - sure, moving won't give it away to hearing, but unless its invisible it can still be spotted normally. Similarly, an invisible creature is undetectable by sight, but it can still be smelled.

EDIT:


I agree with Morclean, but I see a wrinkle: does Mindsight require line of effect? Because I would expect the earth to cut off LOE.

Mindsight is based on telepathy, which doesn't depend on LoE (e.g. isn't blocked by walls or corners.)

[Norin]

A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. This works much like blindsense--the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means. The creature also perceives several observable characteristics about each being detected with mindsight, including the being's type and Intelligence score. The creature need not take any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is as obvious to mindsight as the being's race and clothing would be to eyesight.

It seems to me that the mindsight'er would know the earthglider's mind was located within wall X, in square Y "on the map" but would by no means otherwise be able to see the creature.

The telepath with mindsight can detect any sentient mind (with int 1 or more) within the range of his telepathy no matter what, as far as i understand.

I could be wrong though. :smalltongue:
Edit- seems i was right then, reading the posts written before i managed to finish posting mine.

[Gotterdammerung]

Unfortunately Mindsight is one of those horrible feats where the authors lack of forethought and poor choice of words make the feat more powerful than it should have been. There is no counter for mindsight as it is written. There SHOULD be tons of counters, but sadly they don't work because mindsight clearly and definitively says that if it has an intelligence score of 1 or higher and it is within the range of your telepathy, you pinpoint it. It doesn't even say that telepathy has to affect you, just that the creature is within the range.

On the bright side, I would say tactically earthglide is in a better position given this quote from the player's handbook


You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

There are spells that can ignore the line of effect blocking nature of solid ground but they are few and far between. So even though an enemy with mindsight might know which square you are in the ground, you still are pretty safe with your blocked line of effect and total concealment.

[JaronK]

Note that the same book that Mindsight was printed in mentions illithids hating undead because they can't be detected telepathically. This indicates that immunity to mind affecting was intended to block Mindsight, even though the feat wasn't written that way.

JaronK

[Morcleon]

On the bright side, I would say tactically earthglide is in a better position given this quote from the player's handbook



There are spells that can ignore the line of effect blocking nature of solid ground but they are few and far between. So even though an enemy with mindsight might know which square you are in the ground, you still are pretty safe with your blocked line of effect and total concealment.

Burrowing Power solves that problem. Skill checks are ridiculously easy to boost.

[Stegyre]

Mindsight is based on telepathy, which doesn't depend on LoE (e.g. isn't blocked by walls or corners.)
By RAW, Mindsight requires telepathy and extends the range of the telepathy. I'll go further in my agreement to note that telepathy has its own glossary definition, which says nothing about LOE.

The OP, however, says that the Mindsight in question is keyed off of Blindsense, which does require LOE (both according to the OP and according to the glossary definition of Blindsense).

I admit, I'm just confused. :smallconfused: If this were plain vanilla Mindsight, I think the previous answers are unquestionably correct, and the earth glider is detectable at anything within telepathy range. If, however, this is some special variant of Mindsight tied to Blindsense range, Blindsense is blocked by LOE. Thus (by my read), you'd be able to detect the earthglider if he were "at the surface," but not any "deeper" in the earth/wall/whatever.

Maybe the OP should clarify.

[Hirax]

Mindsight
A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability
that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings
within range of its telepathy. The creature perceives where the
others are and how powerful their intellects are.
Prerequisite: Telepathy special quality.
Benefi t: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint
beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence
score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. This works
much like blindsense—the creature knows what square each
thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the
being still has total concealment unless the creature can see
it by some other means.
The creature also perceives several observable characteristics
about each being detected with mindsight, including the
being’s type and Intelligence score. The creature need not take
any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is
as obvious to mindsight as the being’s race and clothing would
be to eyesight.
Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other
minds. The creature has to know that a being is there to communicate
with it telepathically.

Where ever you get telepathy, you get mindsight. Does telepathy require LoE? I'd like to point out that the ramifications of it requiring LoE are quite insane. Walking through a door and closing it behind you would disallow you from communicating with someone on the other side of the door. The spell telepathic bond, despite working at any distance on the same plane, would be blocked if an object came between you and the person you're communicating with. The spell interplanar telepathic bond simply wouldn't function at all. Given the stupid ramifications of telepathy requiring LoE, I'd err on the side of it not requiring it, unless someone can find something that specifically calls out telepathy as requiring it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Note that the same book that Mindsight was printed in mentions illithids hating undead because they can't be detected telepathically. This indicates that immunity to mind affecting was intended to block Mindsight, even though the feat wasn't written that way.

JaronK

Was gonna say something along these lines. Sadly, if this were the case, though, illithids would hate a whole slew of creature types, and mindsight would receive one epic-grade nerf. Mindless creatures clearly are immune, and I would think that abjuration like mindblank should also work to block it.

Does mindsight imply some kind of contact with said creature? Would it trigger that anti-telepathy wilder ability whose name evades me at the moment? Though I think that ability might have nil effect on many creatures.

[Gotterdammerung]

Burrowing Power solves that problem. Skill checks are ridiculously easy to boost.

Yes, burrowing power will work for a psion. But it isn't anything going deeper won't fix.

As I said, there are ways to ignore the LoE blocking nature of the ground. I merely wanted to point out that given a choice between automatically knowing if 90% of the monsters in the game are within 100 feet of me OR being untargetable by 90% of the offensive attacks in the game, I would choose the latter.

[Psyren]

The OP, however, says that the Mindsight in question is keyed off of Blindsense, which does require LOE (both according to the OP and according to the glossary definition of Blindsense).

The feat specifically tells you how mindsight is similar to blindsense. LoE is not mentioned, and furthermore the feat specifically says "within range of its telepathy." If a creature is within range of your telepathy but behind a door, and you disallow mindsight working, you are violating RAW and therefore houseruling.

[Phelix-Mu]

From the previously quoted mindsight ability:

Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other
minds. The creature has to know that a being is there to communicate
with it telepathically.

Hurray for bad writing. If I have to "know" a creature is somewhere, then what do I have to rely on? Unless the creature can't move or I can sense it somehow, then I can't "know" that it hasn't moved. Ergo, lack of line of sight does block telepathy, unless the creature also has mindsight. I sense a primary source quotation to counter this in my future, but I think the contradiction here should be apparent.

Possibly, being in constant mental contact with a creature, established while line of sight is present, might bypass this, but it seems this might vary based on the spell/effect granting telepathy. Not clear that simply being in mental contact with someone allows you to know where they are, and the definition of mindsight implies that, with only telepathy, you specifically don't know where someone you are in contact is. This all basically has to be ignored, though, because we are mere implications away from rendering telepathy as useful as, say, sign language.

[Stegyre]

The feat specifically tells you how mindsight is similar to blindsense. LoE is not mentioned, and furthermore the feat specifically says "within range of its telepathy." If a creature is within range of your telepathy but behind a door, and you disallow mindsight working, you are violating RAW and therefore houseruling.
Again, I have no disagreement with any of that. It's just not what the OP said.

What the OP said was, "mindsight is keyed off of blindsense, which is restricted by LoE." Maybe the OP was misunderstanding the feat language you refer to (language I do not dispute). Maybe he is referring to a homebrew or some obscure published instance of mindsight.

As written, if a creature has a form of telepathy that does require LoE, then its mindsight is limited in the same manner. (Notably, some telepathic effects are limited -- the telepath power Read Thoughts, for example; the default, however, is no such limit.

If there's nothing else specified, then mindsight does not require LoE. As with all things D&D, however, read the fine print. Exceptions to the rules are scattered everywhere.

If I have to "know" a creature is somewhere, then what do I have to rely on? Unless the creature can't move or I can sense it somehow, then I can't "know" that it hasn't moved. Ergo, lack of line of sight does block telepathy, unless the creature also has mindsight.
I think that may be a hypertechnical reading of telepathy. I understand it to mean if I know you are in the next room, I can communicate with you telepathically, just as I could shout and you would probably hear me. The real take-away from that comment is that, without Mindsight, Telepathy cannot be used to locate people/things/etc.

A non-RAW analogy, building on my previous example: if I have speech, I can communicate with anyone within range of my speech, but I need echo-location to be able to use my speech to locate anyone within that range. YMMV.

[Deophaun]

Hurray for bad writing. If I have to "know" a creature is somewhere, then what do I have to rely on? Unless the creature can't move or I can sense it somehow, then I can't "know" that it hasn't moved. Ergo, lack of line of sight does block telepathy, unless the creature also has mindsight.
You know the princess is being held in the 10X10 room behind that heavy iron door. Therefore, you can use telepathy to communicate with her, even though you don't have LoS.

LoS is simply one method to determine the existence of a creature. It is sufficient, but it is not necessary.

[Phelix-Mu]

You know the princess is being held in the 10X10 room behind that heavy iron door. Therefore, you can use telepathy to communicate with her, even though you don't have LoS.

LoS is simply one method to determine the existence of a creature. It is sufficient, but it is not necessary.

How do I know the princess is really there, though? Did I see her enter the room? Did the party rogue bribe the guard into telling us the princess is in there? Clarivoyance? "Know" and "assume" are functionally distinct.

Furthermore, "there" from the "the creature has to know that a being is there to communicate with it telepathically" is a useless term, arbitrarily vague or specific. I know that someone in my party is on this plane, perhaps, therefor they are "there" for purposes of aiming my telepathy power (obviously limited by telepathy range).

Basically, in my mind this comes down to can you aim your telepathy at a place where you expect to find someone, like yelling down a hole you can't see down but saw your friend fall into. If you have to "know" that someone is "there," then the rules are poorly defined. But if you can "shout" with your telepathy, then maybe it works.

[Psyren]

Hurray for bad writing. If I have to "know" a creature is somewhere, then what do I have to rely on? Unless the creature can't move or I can sense it somehow, then I can't "know" that it hasn't moved. Ergo, lack of line of sight does block telepathy, unless the creature also has mindsight. I sense a primary source quotation to counter this in my future, but I think the contradiction here should be apparent.

"You have to know the creature is there" simply means "you have to know that he is somewhere within the range of your telepathy." You don't actually have to see it, or know what square it's in, so I'm not sure how line of sight comes into play.

[JaronK]

The whole point of Mindsight is that it's different from Telepathy in that it does find people without you knowing they're there as long as they're in range. Normally telepathy can't find people, but Mindsight can find people. By RAW, the only things that would stop it are things that specifically screw up telepathy (like the Hellbreaker's ability to shut down all telepathy within 20'), but by RAI it's probably not supposed to work on things that are immune to mind affecting (which would be a good DMing ruling for balance).

JaronK

[Snowbluff]

You know, someone is complaining about Mindsight not having counters.

Tell me.

What other effective counters are there to earth glide? Maybe Mindsight is not the messed up feat.

[Morcleon]

You know, someone is complaining about Mindsight not having counters.

Tell me.

What other effective counters are there to earth glide? Maybe Mindsight is not the messed up feat.

Etherealness. And earth glide. I think that's it. :smalltongue: Also, earth glide isn't a feat.

[Snowbluff]

Etherealness. And earth glide. I think that's it. :smalltongue:

Do either of these give you LoE?



Also, earth glide isn't a feat.
Not really the point. Mindsight is what I was talking about.

[Morcleon]

Do either of these give you LoE?

With transdimensional spell/power, etherealness does. With burrowing power, earth glide does. Still really hard to hit someone who's dedicated on running away from you...

[Snowbluff]

With transdimensional spell/power, etherealness does. With burrowing power, earth glide does. Still really hard to hit someone who's dedicated on running away from you...
Well, I think I have concluded that Earthglide is pretty messed up. Come see me next week when I tell you dirt is brown.

[Gotterdammerung]

The whole point of Mindsight is that it's different from Telepathy in that it does find people without you knowing they're there as long as they're in range. Normally telepathy can't find people, but Mindsight can find people. By RAW, the only things that would stop it are things that specifically screw up telepathy (like the Hellbreaker's ability to shut down all telepathy within 20'), but by RAI it's probably not supposed to work on things that are immune to mind affecting (which would be a good DMing ruling for balance).

JaronK

And the funny thing about hellbreaker's Telepathic static is that it only counters Mindsight if the person is within 20 ft of the hellbreaker. It counters it by suppressing the telepathy which is a prerequisite of mindsight thus temporarily negating the effect of mindsight. It doesn't actually stop mindsight from working. And if a person with mindsight has a telepathy range greater than 20 feet, then he can never be snuck up on by a hellbreaker.

[Flickerdart]

And if a person with mindsight has a telepathy range greater than 20 feet, then he can never be snuck up on by a hellbreaker.
Dimdoor from out of range within 20 feet? Does that count as sneaking?

[Morcleon]

Well, I think I have concluded that Earthglide is pretty messed up. Come see me next week when I tell you dirt is brown.

But... but... dirt can be black too! :smalleek: :smalltongue:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_w9P_KjaKE7c/Sy98aIoM6SI/AAAAAAAAAyc/0Wx6ndHLk4k/s400/dirt.jpg

[Flickerdart]

Dirt is black because when you're earthgliding through the ground, you don't have any light (even if you brought a light source). Better have tremorsense!

[Piggy Knowles]

And the funny thing about hellbreaker's Telepathic static is that it only counters Mindsight if the person is within 20 ft of the hellbreaker. It counters it by suppressing the telepathy which is a prerequisite of mindsight thus temporarily negating the effect of mindsight. It doesn't actually stop mindsight from working. And if a person with mindsight has a telepathy range greater than 20 feet, then he can never be snuck up on by a hellbreaker.

Teleportation, if Anticipate Teleportation isn't up (but why wouldn't it be?). In any case, if you can quickly close the distance while remaining hidden, you can keep the enemy from pinpointing you. They'll know you are near, but that's it.

Of course, they can always just turn on Arcane Sight (assuming it wasn't permanencied, in which case they don't even need to do that). Then the hidden Hellbreaker will glow like a Christmas tree and his location will be painfully obvious. Even Mind Blank won't stop Arcane Sight from picking up his items...

[Snowbluff]

But... but... dirt can be black too! :smalleek: :smalltongue:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_w9P_KjaKE7c/Sy98aIoM6SI/AAAAAAAAAyc/0Wx6ndHLk4k/s400/dirt.jpg
I don't think that qualifies as black. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black) I think we can have black dirt, but that isn't it.

I like the reddish dirt. Fun stuff.

http://slowmuse.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/redroadweb2.jpg


Dirt is black because when you're earthgliding through the ground, you don't have any light (even if you brought a light source). Better have tremorsense!

Well, to wit:

Earth Glide causes you to leave no sign of your presence.

Mindsight detects your presence via your mind.

While Earthgliding, you have no Mind.

[Flickerdart]

Teleportation, if Anticipate Teleportation isn't up (but why wouldn't it be?). In any case, if you can quickly close the distance while remaining hidden, you can keep the enemy from pinpointing you. They'll know you are near, but that's it.
"I cast Fireball, centred on myself." :smallbiggrin:



Well, to wit:

Earth Glide causes you to leave no sign of your presence.

Mindsight detects your presence via your mind.

While Earthgliding, you have no Mind.
Are you immune to vibrations (due to gliding through the medium with no resistance)? Because then anyone Earthgliding becomes blind, deaf, and dumb.

[Phelix-Mu]

Still confused about how telepathy works on a practical level.

Say the party wizard likes to dimdoor around. Last time my character tried telepathy, he was within range, and communication was had. Then the wizard dimdoor out of my telepathy range.

Query: How do I know he's out of telepathy range? Do I get a dial tone when I try to ring him? Is this different than if the wizard just refused to answer my telepathic contact? Can someone refuse telepathic contact?

Later, the wizard dimdoors back into my telepathy range, but has no way of contacting me and is not visible, and otherwise I do not know where the wiz is.

Query: Do I automatically know the wiz reenters my telepathy range? If so, how is this not contrary to having to "know" where the wiz is to contact him telepathically? Forget the wiz for the moment; do I automatically get some kind of signal from any intelligent creature that is within my telepathy range that specifies their presence?

[Gotterdammerung]

Dimdoor from out of range within 20 feet? Does that count as sneaking?

I meant to say that Hellbreaker doesn't functionally counter mindsight, even though it will counter it when u alredy got close up.

Yes you could teleport in from outside the range of mindsight but any character with those capabilities has that option. Hellbreakers telepathic block in that scenario is of no consequence.

[Morcleon]

I don't think that qualifies as black. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black) I think we can have black dirt, but that isn't it.

I like the reddish dirt. Fun stuff.

http://slowmuse.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/redroadweb2.jpg


Bah, it's close enough. :smallannoyed: Some of it is!


Well, to wit:

Earth Glide causes you to leave no sign of your presence.

Mindsight detects your presence via your mind.

While Earthgliding, you have no Mind.

So does this mean that you are immune to all divinations, regardless of power, when you are earth gliding?

[Flickerdart]

Still confused about how telepathy works on a practical level.
It helps if you think of telepathy as merely speaking, just in a different way.


Say the party wizard likes to dimdoor around. Last time my character tried telepathy, he was within range, and communication was had. Then the wizard dimdoor out of my telepathy range.

Query: How do I know he's out of telepathy range? Do I get a dial tone when I try to ring him? Is this different than if the wizard just refused to answer my telepathic contact? Can someone refuse telepathic contact?

If we follow the speaking analogy, you don't - you shout at the wizard with your mind, and if he's in range, he'll ask you to use your indoor think, but if he's not, you get no reply. Similarly, if you telepathy at a creature, they have the option to stay silent, in which case you don't know they're around.



Later, the wizard dimdoors back into my telepathy range, but has no way of contacting me and is not visible, and otherwise I do not know where the wiz is.

Query: Do I automatically know the wiz reenters my telepathy range? If so, how is this not contrary to having to "know" where the wiz is to contact him telepathically? Forget the wiz for the moment; do I automatically get some kind of signal from any intelligent creature that is within my telepathy range that specifies their presence?
You don't know if the wizard comes back without some other sense.


So does this mean that you are immune to all divinations, regardless of power, when you are earth gliding?
Most divinations don't care about mindlessness.

[Hirax]

So does this mean that you are immune to all divinations, regardless of power, when you are earth gliding?

It means you're immune to all divinations when you're inside a house, too, if that's the case.

Edit: well, unless diviner is in the same house and has LoE.

[Venger]

holy halruaa! look at all these responses in just over two hours!

my apologies for my confusing initial statement regarding blindsense. this is part of the reason I made this thread in the first place. I was pretty sure that they just meant it was like blindsense as far as concealment was concerned, but wasn't sure if it meant it was like blindsense in other ways (LoE) the posts have made it clear that that's not the case and that it only means you don't get an added edge if the target's invisible or what have you.

so if I'm understanding correctly:

earth glider is within telepathy range of the telepath while in a wall

he still pings on mindsight

yes?

[Phelix-Mu]

You don't know if the wizard comes back without some other sense.


So aren't we back to not being able to talk to the guy on the other side of the wall unless I know he's there, which I must verify with some other sense? Basically, "The creature has to know that a being is there to communicate
with it telepathically" (Mindsight feat).

[Stegyre]

so if I'm understanding correctly:

earth glider is within telepathy range of the telepath while in a wall

he still pings on mindsight

yes?
Correct.

So aren't we back to not being able to talk to the guy on the other side of the wall unless I know he's there, which I must verify with some other sense? Basically, "The creature has to know that a being is there to communicate with it telepathically" (Mindsight feat).
That quickly leads to absurd situations that would effectively require LoE or LoS even though neither of those is required for telepathy: "Sure you saw the wizard just enter the next room and close the door, but he may have teleported, so you don't really 'know' that he's there unless you can still see (LoS) or detect (LoE) him."

RAW doesn't clearly address it. I would treat it as being able to make a telepathic call to that specific individual. Others cannot "hear" it. If the individual is within range, he can "hear" it, but you do not know anything about his presence unless he is willing and able to respond.

[Snowbluff]

Are you immune to vibrations (due to gliding through the medium with no resistance)? Because then anyone Earthgliding becomes blind, deaf, and dumb.
Yes.


So does this mean that you are immune to all divinations, regardless of power, when you are earth gliding?

This has been answered, and the answer is no.
Red dirt is best dirt.
If you are mindless, can you have feats/class levels?

[Stegyre]

Red dirt is best dirt.
And Mars is the best planet.

[Snowbluff]

And Mars is the best planet.

I actually name a lot of characters after Mars stuff (Timor, Phobos, Ares, Metus...) and John Connor was a pretty cool movie.

[Morcleon]

This has been answered, and the answer is no.
Red dirt is best dirt.
If you are mindless, can you have feats/class levels?

Technically no.

Which means if you're an Earth Dreamer, then you use earth glide, you automatically lose your ability to earth glide as soon as you try to start.

I'd reason that "sign" refers to physical sign, as, under normal detection, you have no mental signs.

[Snowbluff]

Technically no.

Which means if you're an Earth Dreamer, then you use earth glide, you automatically lose your ability to earth glide as soon as you try to start.

I'd reason that "sign" refers to physical sign, as, under normal detection, you have no mental signs.
Exactly. Now you get it. As long as LoE isn't an issue (which it isn't), Mindsight detects you.

[Morcleon]

Exactly. Now you get it. As long as LoE isn't an issue (which it isn't), Mindsight detects you.

...I've "gotten it" since my first post on here, when I said that it means physical sign. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

...I've "gotten it" since my first post on here, when I said that it means physical sign. :smalltongue:

No, I mean the point where no one can Earth Glide. :smalltongue:
What I really mean is that earthglide is the problem rule, not mindsight.

[Morcleon]

No, I mean the point where no one can Earth Glide. :smalltongue:

No Earth Dreamers can. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental) :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

And Mars is the best planet.
Mars isn't red, it's brown. Like dirt.

[Snowbluff]

No Earth Dreamers can. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental) :smallwink:
English Ambiguity. I hope you don't mean "No, earthdreamers can."
Hehe, oh elementals. How could we forget you?

[Deophaun]

How do I know the princess is really there, though? Did I see her enter the room? Did the party rogue bribe the guard into telling us the princess is in there? Clarivoyance? "Know" and "assume" are functionally distinct.
How do you know that the person you see is really there? It could be an illusion. Maybe you just failed your saving throw. Maybe you never even got out of bed this morning. Maybe you're dreaming. Maybe you are part of someone else's dream and don't even exist. Maybe you're just a character in game, nothing more than scratchings on a sheet of paper and some painted pewter, and so actually incapable of knowing anything at all.

"Are you immune to vibrations (due to gliding through the medium with no resistance)? Because then anyone Earthgliding becomes blind, deaf, and dumb.
But they can still play a mean pinball.

[Hirax]

How do you know that the person you see is really there? It could be an illusion. Maybe you just failed your saving throw. Maybe you never even got out of bed this morning. Maybe you're dreaming. Maybe you are part of someone else's dream and don't even exist. Maybe you're just a character in game, nothing more than scratchings on a sheet of paper and some painted pewter, and so actually incapable of knowing anything at all.

Heh, solipsism is one of my favorite spells in the game.

[Morcleon]

English Ambiguity. I hope you don't mean "No, earthdreamers can."
Hehe, oh elementals. How could we forget you?
If I mean that, I would have put in a comma. Unless it doesn't make sense at all, it's generally best to assume that I meant everything I typed. :smalltongue:
By having a yandere earth dreamer clinging onto you for the past few months? :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

By having a yandere earth dreamer clinging onto you for the past few months? :smalltongue:
Ah, yes. Good ol' Setsuna-kun. She's adorable!

[Morcleon]

Ah, yes. Good ol' Setsuna-kun. She's adorable!

Setsuna is very happy that you think that of her. ^_^

[Phelix-Mu]

This thread has been very informative. Thanks to all who participated!

1.) Earth glide is great. More or less self-evident, I don't think mindsight changes this.

2.) Telepathy is confusing, but very strong. Mindsight just makes it cooler. Insert "Radar+" to your character's list of monikers.

3.) Dirt is brown, Mars is red. Can't say I was paying particularly close attention during this zen-tastic part of the convo.

3.) Setsuna is, indeed, adorable.

[Stegyre]

Mars isn't red, it's brown. Like dirt.
Nonsense! Mars is red. I have pictures. :smallbiggrin:

Do you suppose earth elementals suffer from racism? The brown ones won't play with the red ones. The rocky ones are always picked last for basketball: "Rock elementals can't jump!"

So sad.

[Flickerdart]

3.) Dirt is brown, Mars is red. Can't say I was paying particularly close attention during this zen-tastic part of the convo.



Nonsense! Mars is red. I have pictures. :smallbiggrin:


Mr. Steven Fry would like a word with you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMwQxzcGrZg).

[Snowbluff]

This thread has been very informative. Thanks to all who participated!

1.) Earth glide is great. More or less self-evident, I don't think mindsight changes this.

2.) Telepathy is confusing, but very strong. Mindsight just makes it cooler. Insert "Radar+" to your character's list of monikers.

3.) Dirt is brown, Mars is red. Can't say I was paying particularly close attention during this zen-tastic part of the convo.

3.) Setsuna is, indeed, adorable.
Where have I seen you before? I think you should get an avatar. :smalltongue::smallconfused:
Your welcome, but I wish you wouldn't ruin my endings. The dirt is brown is something I was saving for a future thread.


Nonsense! Mars is red. I have pictures. :smallbiggrin:

Do you suppose earth elementals suffer from racism? The brown ones won't play with the red ones. The rocky ones are always picked last for basketball: "Rock elementals can't jump!"

So sad.

Lol. Perfect sociological understanding of rock elemental civilization!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nonsense! Mars is red. I have pictures. :smallbiggrin:

Do you suppose earth elementals suffer from racism? The brown ones won't play with the red ones. The rocky ones are always picked last for basketball: "Rock elementals can't jump!"

So sad.

Did anyone else expect the spoiler to contain a picture of mars?

[Flickerdart]

Did anyone else expect the spoiler to contain a picture of mars?
No.

Yes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Mars-Bar-UK-Wrapper-Small.jpg

[Snowbluff]

No.

Yes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Mars-Bar-UK-Wrapper-Small.jpg

Either way, we are all wrong. Mars is clearly black.

[Phelix-Mu]

Where have I seen you before? I think you should get an avatar. :smalltongue::smallconfused:


I think I fixed that. Can someone PM me if there is some kind of code about what are acceptable avatars. I looked through the forum rules quickly and couldn't find much under the list of infractions.

[Snowbluff]

I think I fixed that. Can someone PM me if there is some kind of code about what are acceptable avatars. I looked through the forum rules quickly and couldn't find much under the list of infractions.

I sure hope not. Look at my current avatar.

[Morcleon]

I think I fixed that. Can someone PM me if there is some kind of code about what are acceptable avatars. I looked through the forum rules quickly and couldn't find much under the list of infractions.

I think the only limitations are 1) no animated avatars and 2) nothing that would otherwise break the forum rules (ie, extreme gore, nudity, etc).

[SaintRidley]

Still confused about how telepathy works on a practical level.

Say the party wizard likes to dimdoor around. Last time my character tried telepathy, he was within range, and communication was had. Then the wizard dimdoor out of my telepathy range.

Query: How do I know he's out of telepathy range? Do I get a dial tone when I try to ring him?



brrrring, brrrrring... Doo-dah-dee! We're sorry. The mind you have dialed is not available. Please check the number and try again.


Is this different than if the wizard just refused to answer my telepathic contact?


brrrring, brrrrring... Yeah, this is Wizard Jim. I'm sorry I can't answer you right now. Leave a message and I'll get back to you whenever. BEEP!


Can someone refuse telepathic contact?

brrrring, brrrring... Stop calling me, you stupid tele-marketers!

[Stegyre]

Did anyone else expect the spoiler to contain a picture of mars?
. . . so I'm too lazy to photobucket.

I do have the picture. It's also available here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/29/new-hd-mars-pictures-curiosity_n_1840585.html).

No.

Yes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Mars-Bar-UK-Wrapper-Small.jpg