Relative value of 8 points in Point Buy Stats

[hymer]

In my coming campaign, I intend to offer PCs one of five possible 'boons'. One is 1 point reduction in LA (no buy-off, no reducing ECL below HD). Another is 36 point buy instead of the regular 28 point buy. So it's that sort of level of power.
My suggestion has been received very warmly by my players, and one asked me if I could come up with more options. That'll be tomorrow.

So, guys, could you give me some help while I sleep? What's 'worth' about the same as 8 points of Point Buy or a 1-point reduction in ECL? Oh, and if it isn't obviously exploitable, that'd be nice, too. :smallbiggrin:

[Story]

Does the extra point buy let them go over 18? If not, the LA is definitely better. Even for a MAD melee class, the Savage template is really tempting.

Other suggestions for boons you could use are an increase to WBL or an extra feat. Of course, the relative value of all of these is dependent on the particular build, as well as overall level of optimization, so it may be difficult to balance precisely.

[Juntao112]

An extra feat

[Akto]

In our campaign where we started at level 6, we had the option to start with 30000 gold or use 13000 of it to buy off an LA+1 race or 26000 to buyoff an LA+2 race, so a big gold bonus could also be an option

[Toliudar]

The ability to gestalt one level in a second class?

[andromax]

The +LA can get them stupid higher stats than the 8 more points.

For instance, with a 28 you could get stats of;

14
14
14
14
10
10

36 point buy could get you;

16
14
16
14
10
10

But with a 28 point buy and Lolth Touched +1LA you're at;

20
14
20
14
10
10


An extra feat

I think an extra feat would be better.. or only offer the higher stat buy to lower tier classes.

[awa]

it of course depends on the la being bought off for example hobgoblin and drow are notoriously bad for their la, while loth touch and half minotaur are commonly regarded as extremly strong for 1 la.

[andromax]

Extra gold

Master Key type item (maybe it just gives a nice bonus on open lock and can take 10 in combat.. & used untrained) would be a little better than a feat.

A survival kit containing a few alchemist fires, a few tanglefoot bags, a couple Panic Buttons, some other random single use mundane goodies, a couple potions, and a small magic item.

A custom legacy weapon

[hymer]

@ Story: I didn't intend it to. Do notice, though, that you can take +LA anyway. You could combine 36 point buy with a +LA race if your stats are that important to you.
But how many point of point buy would you value a one-point LA reduction at?

@ Juntao112: Thanks! I wonder if a single feat at level 1 is worth a level or 8 points of point buy. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Or should that feat come in when the player wants it to? That would sound like it might bypass some entry requirements to prestige classes.

@ Akto: It's a thought. I'm a little worried it doesn't scale very well. The other things put you ahead at a fixed point, the money advantage gets very small quite fast. Though maybe it shouldn't be a lump sum...

@ Toliudar: Interesting thought, appreciate it! I'll have to think about how powerful that would be, it'd be like a free dip of sorts.

@ andromax' first post: My players know everything is allowed on case-by-case basis. So ban Lolth-touched, check, and keep an eye out for other templates and races (this is technically speaking - this isn't a campaign where the players will be taking Lolth-touched). The reason I value the two so closely, is mostly because of how you get to choose precisely what you want to make better with the increased point buy. With LA stuff you take what you get. But of course, if it gives you precisely what you want, I gotta be on the lookout for that.
Thanks for spelling it out! Like to Story, I'd ask how you would value a 1-point reduction in ECL compared to point buy points.

@ awa: Thanks. No buy-off, as the op notes.

@ andromax: I'm worried the extra gold will get a little lost. Maybe it should be more like a stipend or surplus from their twin's business. Then it gets sent to the character, so they're always a little ahead of WBL. Bit of a domescratcher, that.
The item ideas I like. I think my players would rather go for the permanent goodies over the expendables if I know them, but that's mostly a matter of taste.
Thanks again!

[TypoNinja]

You might consider slightly more esoteric options as well, for example, a cleric who PrC's pretty much sacrifices his ability to Turn undead effectively, maybe give him the option to count cleric PrC levels for turn undead attempts?

Or something like make Favored Soul SAD, it'd still be a far worse option than cleric but it wouldn't completely suck then.

You can offer tweaks to specific classes or abilities that might not be good for everybody but might be a choice one of your players would find appealing.

[Story]

But how many point of point buy would you value a one-point LA reduction at?


20? 30? It depends strongly on the build. Even 96 might not be enough.

Take a look at some of the good LA+1 templates
Half Giant (combined with Primordial Giant)
Evolved Undead (on a Necropolitan)
Savage
Mineral Warrior

Even picking up an extra HD to get early entry into Prcs can be extremely valuable in a Ultimate Magus build for instance.

[Yora]

It always depends on how broken a template you can find.

Having a lizardfolk character with 2 racial HD and LA+0 is certainly worth a lot less then 8 additional ability points.

[Story]

Another idea I thought of: Let spellcasters pick a spell or two off a different class list.

[hymer]

@ TypoNinja: Those are lovely ideas, just a little difficult to put into a succint rule. I don't really want to throw out this as a suggestion to my players. I have one or two of the kind that goes for the wildest pitch they can think of ('Can I make Constitution my druid's casting stat?'). As much as I love shooting them down, it's not good for their morale. :smallwink:
But it's worth thinking more about, thanks.

@ Story & Yora: Gotcha. So it's more of a problem with LA. So far it's been used by my players for gestalt and playing a Drow, so I think I'm good. But I'll keep an eye out and keep the banhammer and the nerfbat within reach.
I already have an option along the line you suggested last, Story, so that's a great idea! :smallbiggrin:
Thanks both.

[only1doug]

A 1/day Spell like ability (L0 or L1 spell only) (this could possibly be upgraded at the GM's pleasure during play).

(consider the kobolds racial ability or the dragonmarks from Eberron as an example)

[Edenbeast]

I'm generally against these sort things, as they are difficult to balance. In fact, as a player, I rather avoid races with LA.

There's a reason for LA. I don't see how giving a one point reduction in LA to one player and to the other player extra ability points to spend is balancing. Besides, the system works fine as it is: you pick a race with a powerful spell-like ability, high ability adjustments, etc, you face LA. As a result you will be 1 or more levels behind in class levels compared to races without LA. I believe that's a fair compensation. I don't understand why you would want to make it more complex, if not unbalanced, by using some homebrew rules.

If you want to give the players something extra, there are other ways to do this. Character traits for instance, as described in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide, are pretty much minor feats giving a bonus to skills, saves, etc. You can also find these on the Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits). I use these to reward players for writing a background.

[Zanthy1]

A bonus feat, maybe even a few extra skill points as well, sounds reasonable. I would hesitate give free LA buyoffs above 1, just because it can get a little much..

[hymer]

@ Edenbeast: Your objection is noted, thank you for voicing it.

@ Zanthy1: Luckily, the players will be using LA above 0 to play gestalt (set at LA +2), or maybe a drow (+1, but SR really sucks). I don't think it'll get out of control.
Thanks for the suggestions!