Help Optimizing A Binder Anima Mage

[samuraijaques]

Hey guys,

I have a character that my friend and I are trying to optimize for an upcoming campaign. He is a divine variant anima mage with binder and cleric as his base classes. As this is a very high powered campaign we are buffing up his character with bloodlines and persistent divine magic.

Here is his build

Cleric 1/ Binder 1/ Anima Mage 6/ Bloodline 2

So my understanding of bloodlines is that you can only take them at 3 6 and 12. Is that correct? If not, would it be more advantageous to take them all as early as possible or spread them out?

Would this build be better?

Cleric 1/ Binder 1/ Bloodline 3/ Tenebrous Apostate 1/ Anima Mage 4

The character is going to use feats like divine spell power, divine defiance and travel devotion to use his free turn attempts that are granted from tenebrous and the green lady.

The idea behind the character is to not take the normal persistent divine power, righteous might of the faithful, greater magic weapon line and go more for straight caster related stuff. for instance, he wants to persist stop heart so that he can give people heart attacks all day, antimagic field with extraordinary spell aim and holy star for free blasts and high AC.

What are some good divine spells to persist that are not melee related? save or die powers would be best.

looking forward to hearing from you.

cheers.

[Snowbluff]

Optimum Anima Mage? Why does it have Binder levels?

Bloodlines are an EXP cost. Whether or not you consider them to be HD/Levels/etc, they don't actually change the amount of Exp to level up.

[samuraijaques]

wow, fast response. i took binder with improved binding instead of just taking bind vestige because vestiges are very useful and it's one more class with soul binding that can be affected by bloodlines. If I wasn't taking bloodlines I would have just gone without binder but as is I think it's worth it.

so do they increase your ECL? or do you just get them on top of your regular class level? becuase that sounds even more ridiculously OP than I originally thought.

thanks for the response

cheers

[Morbis Meh]

Well here was my very powerful anima mage build:

Gray Elf (flaws were allowed)
1 Conjurer/1 Binder/ 10 Anima Mage/ 8 Red Wizard

In your case well... you would be better off just playing as a cleric with DMM, take a few applicable PrC's eg sacred exorcist for an increased turning pool, contemplative for extra domain etc etc

I have never bothered with bloodlines personally and if you want a spammable emtamgic machine for a cleric then DMM is a much better choice since by level 8 you could have a nice sum of turn undead attempts. If you are dead set on this then you cannot get into this PrC until level 4 since it requires the ability to cast spells of at least level 2 (divine in your case) so precocious apprentice does not work.

[samuraijaques]

Precocious apprentice has been reworked to allow him access to anima mage early with a divine casting class.

I think the term optimized is giving people the wrong impression. I don't want to just make an optimized character, if i did i would just make him an archivist. I want to make a character that has full binding and divine casting and make him as good as i possibly can. I want to optimize THIS character.

thanks for the replies

[Snowbluff]

wow, fast response. i took binder with improved binding instead of just taking bind vestige because vestiges are very useful and it's one more class with soul binding that can be affected by bloodlines. If I wasn't taking bloodlines I would have just gone without binder but as is I think it's worth it.

Okay, if that's allow. :smallsmile:


so do they increase your ECL? or do you just get them on top of your regular class level? becuase that sounds even more ridiculously OP than I originally thought.
I think this has been debated, and I think we can get around whether or not it is.. I think the safest best would be to pay the EXP costs from what your total EXP would be at if you were playing without the bloodline. What level are you going for?


thanks for the response

cheers

You are welcome, good sir.

@Morbis Tenebrous Turning + DMM is a little stronger, I think.

[Psyren]

Since you're using Anima Priest, you can already get dual 9s (or the Binder equivalent, 8ths) by adding on Tenebrous Apostate, so I don't see a reason to ramp up the cheese factor with bloodlines myself.

[samuraijaques]

The reason for the bloodlines is to make the character basically impossible to suck with. The two people i am playing this campaign with are inexperienced players and I want to give them the best possible chance to succeed. So I designed this character and a spell-to-power erudite thinking that they would both be fun and interesting characters to play that are so powerful there really isn't anything you could do with them that wouldn't be bad ass as long as you put even a little effort in. Consider the bloodline abuse training wheels :).

thanks for the replies

cheers

[Snowbluff]

The reason for the bloodlines is to make the character basically impossible to suck with. The two people i am playing this campaign with are inexperienced players and I want to give them the best possible chance to succeed. So I designed this character and a spell-to-power erudite thinking that they would both be fun and interesting characters to play that are so powerful there really isn't anything you could do with them that wouldn't be bad ass as long as you put even a little effort in. Consider the bloodline abuse training wheels :).

thanks for the replies

cheers

Combining casting and the difficult to learn binding might be tricky for new players.

[samuraijaques]

I have talked to him about it and he really like the character idea. but you are right, it is going to be a complicated character to play, that's why i threw in the bloodline abuse, to make the character easier to play.

['Able' Xanthis]

Currently you're going to be running a caster level 9/ vestige level 8 build that has infinite turns per day if you're willing to wait out the cooldown. Divine Meta-Magic will do great things and with the Binder levels you will be capable of basic any skill. Not very many ways to screw this up.

Get some Divine Meta-Magic, a vestige phylactery, remember to ask about rapid pact making.

Oh, and remember to check out the Consolidated Binder's Handbook over on the WotC site it's great.

[Psyren]

I have talked to him about it and he really like the character idea. but you are right, it is going to be a complicated character to play, that's why i threw in the bloodline abuse, to make the character easier to play.

But judging by your first and second post, even you don't fully understand how bloodlines are supposed to work, and it's your idea. Rather than making the character easier to play, I think it will be an added layer of complexity that won't be needed.

A simple and straightforward Cloistered Cleric 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5 is plenty powerful, and you won't have to worry about what your ECL is or the best time to take bloodlines.

[HunterOfJello]

If you want to create a build like this for an inexperienced player then do the follow things:

1. Drop the bloodline. Bloodlines are stupid for anything but a pure binder and they're just going to confuse the crap out of a new player if applied properly.

2. Don't use prepared spellcasting. Prepared casting requires a player to know 5x the number of spells than spontaneous spellcasting does. Switch Cleric to Favored Soul and let the FS's spellcasting be completely charisma based. Favored Soul is a handy class for learning spellcasting in this game. They get tons of spells known from quite a good spell list.

3. Let the build contain the 2nd level of Binder. Suppress Sign is an ability that will be sadly missed if not obtained.

4. Reconsider trying to force a double-progression PrC on an inexperienced player. Overwhelming a new player with game mechanics is not a good way to work things. D&D 3.5 is already very rules heavy. The more spellcasting you stack on top of that, the steeper the learning curve will be on the new player, and the less time that player will actually have to sit down and roleplay. Spending entire sessions looking up the specifics of spells is just a pain in the ass.

5. If you really want to do things right and set up a campaign that the player will be personally and emotionally invested in, don't build their character for them. Bring them a blank character sheet, dice, a pencil, and the relevant books and force them to build the character themself. Every step of building a character requires information that is important to know within the game itself and will provoke questions from the inexperienced player about what each term and option actually mean. Premade characters can be handy in a pinch, but they rarely work towards pulling a player into the game itself.

6. Start low level so that they have an appreciated for combat and its dangerous. Let them earn their way to greatness.

[samuraijaques]

wow, some good replies, thanks you guys

@'able' xanthis
very true, i am definitely not going to have him take the bloodline levels. he'll be plenty powerful as is.

the consolidated binder handbook has been invaluable in creating this character.

@psyren
okay, that seals it, no bloodline. it just makes things complicated.

@hunterofjello
1. done
2. I was actually thinking about that before. He had asked for a spontaneous caster and the DM was going to let him use the spontaneous cleric variant. SO he will be a spontaneous cloistered cleric.
3. suppress sign takes out all the fun. :P
4. he is not a new player, he's just inexperienced. he has played plenty, this is just the most complicated character he has played yet and i wanted to give him the best possible chance of succeeding. he loves the character and wants to play it, i'm just trying to make it easier on him.
5. He has been there every step of the way while making this character, I have just been guiding and helping him along.
6. like i said, he has played plenty, we have gone through a decent number of campaigns together and we all decided it would be fun to start at a higher level for this one.

so the new build is going to be

spontaneous cloistered cleric 3/ binder 2/ anima mage 10/ tenebrous apostate 5?

how does that sound? will he still be able to play with a spell-to-power erudite and an iaijutsu focus character that can one shot anything? will he still feel like he is contributing?

thanks so much for the responses, it's been really helpful.

cheers.

[Psyren]

how does that sound? will he still be able to play with a spell-to-power erudite and an iaijutsu focus character that can one shot anything? will he still feel like he is contributing?

"Can he contribute?" What an odd question. In addition to 9th-level cleric spells, he can:
- Craft and use nearly any item in the game, for his colleagues as well
- Persist all his buffs every morning, including 9th-level spells like Foresight.
- Free Extend every 5 rounds, which is like even more persists on the hour-long buffs.
- Quicken all his spells, again including 9ths (Quickened Miracle anyone?)
- Flood the battlefield with supernatural summons
- If he ever feels like melee, get 4-5 touch attacks per round with reach, sneak attack and sudden strike on each.
- Proficiency with all martial and exotic weapons if he wants
- Know all the things: bardic knowledge, Knowledge Local for every place in existence, Divination every round etc.
- Massive Diplomancy thanks to taking 10 on Diplomacy even while threatened, and rushing checks as a full-round action with no penalty.

I think that's enough to be going on with, don't you?

[samuraijaques]

okay, but in order to do all those things he is going to have to take 3 separate divine metamagic feats and he wont be able to do much of the other stuff till later when he gets his higher level spells and more uses of vestige metamagic.

speaking of divine metamagic, which ones besides persist are worth it?

[Psyren]

okay, but in order to do all those things he is going to have to take 3 separate divine metamagic feats and he wont be able to do much of the other stuff till later when he gets his higher level spells and more uses of vestige metamagic.

He can do the Diplomancy at level 4, and the crafting/summoning at mid-levels. The rest will take awhile but not that long, and he's still a (nearly) full cleric until then.


speaking of divine metamagic, which ones besides persist are worth it?

Quicken is the other good one

[samuraijaques]

okay, quicken was the other one i was thinking, that or extend.

what would be some good domains? keeping in mind that he already has knowledge from cloistered cleric.

[Snowbluff]

Due to the way Tenebrous works, Persist is the hands-down best DMM for this build.

Quicken is alright, but you can only use the rebuking ability to charge it once every 5 rounds.

[Psyren]

Due to the way Tenebrous works, Persist is the hands-down best DMM for this build.

Quicken is alright, but you can only use the rebuking ability to charge it once every 5 rounds.

He can craft nightsticks as well. Judging by the other members of the party this is a high-op campaign, so it's likely he won't be prevented from stacking them.

[Snowbluff]

He can craft nightsticks as well. Judging by the other members of the party this is a high-op campaign, so it's likely he won't be prevented from stacking them.

That can get pretty pricy. DMM: Quicken takes 5 turning attempts. A Nightstick gives 4 attempts per 7,500. Each turn attempt is 1,875 GP, or 9,375 gp per Quicken. Cheaper than a MM Rod of Quicken (35,000 GP for 3 Quickened Spells, ~11,667 per ). Nice use of the 2 feats. Saves you 2000 gp per Quicken spell. Why did we ever think Nightstick stacking was cost effective?

[Psyren]

That can get pretty pricy. DMM: Quicken takes 5 turning attempts. A Nightstick gives 4 attempts per 7,500. Each turn attempt is 1,875 GP, or 9,375 gp per Quicken. Cheaper than a MM Rod of Quicken (35,000 GP for 3 Quickened Spells, ~11,667 per ). Nice use of the 2 feats. Saves you 2000 gp per Quicken spell. Why did we ever think Nightstick stacking was cost effective?

That's 35k only for a lesser rod (3rd-level spells and lower.) A Greater Rod - which is what you'd need to quicken, say, Miracle - would cost 170,000.

Meanwhile, DMM Quicken doesn't actually care about the spell level, just the adjustment. Whether you are quickening Miracle or Magic Weapon, it will still cost 4 turning attempts.

[Snowbluff]

That's 35k only for a lesser rod (3rd-level spells and lower.) A Greater Rod - which is what you'd need to quicken, say, Miracle - would cost 170,000.

What level are they? Okay.


Meanwhile, DMM Quicken doesn't actually care about the spell level, just the adjustment. Whether you are quickening Miracle or Magic Weapon, it will still cost 4 turning attempts.

It's 5. Read the feat, it adds 1.

[Psyren]

What level are they? Okay.

Dunno, but his front-runner build goes to 20.



It's 5. Read the feat, it adds 1.

5 then. Doesn't change my point; nightsticks are cheaper, and for mid-high level spells, much cheaper.