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View Full Version : [3e, ToB] A quick stab at a Sublime Marshal



PairO'Dice Lost
2013-01-16, 07:51 PM
In another thread on ToB-ifying core classes, someone made a suggestion for a class ability that inspired me to expand it into a ToB-ified marshal. This is a bare-bones proof-of-concept with no guarantee of balance, but hopefully it gets the idea across. Enjoy!

The Sublime Marshal

BAB, HD, Saves, Skills, Proficiencies: As marshal, plus Martial Lore as a class skill

{table=head]Level|Special|Maneuvers[br]Known|Maneuvers[br]Readied|Stances
1|Command Style, Marshal aura|3|1|2
2|Small-Unit Tactics|2|1|2
3|Marshal aura|3|1|2
4|Grant maneuver (2nd)|3|2|4
5|Marshal aura|4|2|4
6|On My Command|4|2|4
7|Marshal aura|5|2|4
8|Grant maneuver (3rd)|5|2|4
9|Marshal aura|6|2|4
10|All Together Now|6|3|6
11|Marshal aura|7|3|6
12|Grant maneuver (4th|7|3|6
13|Marshal aura|8|3|6
14|Strategic Commander|8|3|6
15|Marshal aura|9|3|6
16|Grant maneuver (5th)|9|4|8
17|Marshal aura|10|4|8
18|Once More Unto The Breach|10|4|8
19|Marshal aura|11|4|8
20|Warlord|11|4|8[/table]

Command Style: At 1st level, you choose to be either a tactical commander or an inspiring commander, which determines your key ability modifier, your key skill, and the disciplines to which you have access.

Tactical Commander: You wage war by out-planning your enemies and relying on the coordination of those you command. Your key ability modifier is Intelligence, your key skill is Knowledge (History), and you have access to the disciplines of White Raven, Setting Sun, and Diamond Mind. Knowledge (History) and the key skills for those three disciplines become class skills for all your classes.

Intuitive Commander: You wage war by feeling the "flow" of battles and relying on the skill of those you command. Your key ability modifier is Wisdom, your key skill is Profession (Gambler) and you have access to the disciplines of White Raven, Iron Heart, and Stone Dragon. Profession (Gambler) and the key skills for those three disciplines become class skills for all your classes.

Inspiring Commander: You wage war by driving your allies to greater heights and relying on the determination of those you command. Your key ability modifier is Charisma, your key skill is Perform (Oratory), and you have access to the disciplines of White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Tiger Claw. Perform (Oratory) and the key skills for those three disciplines become class skills for all your classes.

Maneuvers and Stances: You learn and ready maneuvers as noted on the table; the disciplines from which you may choose maneuvers are given under Command Style, above. You ready maneuvers by spending 5 minutes going over your battle plans before a conflict, and you refresh maneuvers by spending a full-round action to shout encouragement to your allies, give orders to your troops, and similar. You may initiate maneuvers or change stances in the same round you refresh maneuvers, but any maneuvers you use in that round are not recovered.

Marshal Aura (Ex): At each odd level, you learn a minor or major aura from the list of marshal auras in the Miniature's Handbook; you may learn them in any combination as long as you know at least as many minor auras as you do major auras. As a swift action, you may project a single aura you know to affect all sapient allies (Int of 3 or higher) within 60 feet who can see or hear you, which remains until you project a different aura, dismiss the current one as a free action, or are rendered unable to act by being stunned, confused, knocked unconscious, or the like. The bonus granted by the aura is a circumstance bonus equal to your key ability modifier.

Small-Unit Tactics (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when you enter a stance you may choose to share the benefits of that stance with any allies affected by your aura. Each ally may choose whether to gain the benefits of the stance or not, and if they choose to benefit from it this replaces the benefits of any stance from which they may currently benefit.

This effect lasts until you change your stance, stop projecting an aura, or cease sharing your stance benefits as a free action. Allies who leave your aura for more than 1 round lose the benefits of the stance even if they later re-enter your aura. A stance to be shared in this fashion must belong to one of the disciplines you can access by virtue of your command style. You may not use this class feature and your Grant Maneuver class feature at the same time.

Grant Maneuver (Ex): As long as you have an aura active, you may spend a standard action to grant allies affected by your aura knowledge of one maneuver you know. The maneuver need not be one you have readied, but it must be of a level no higher than indicated on the table. When you use this ability, you reduce your number of readied maneuvers by one, making one of your readied maneuvers unavailable (if the maneuver you are granting is readied, you need not make that maneuver unavailable to grant it). All allies affected by your aura gain access to the maneuver granted as if learning it through the Martial Study feat; crusaders automatically have the maneuver granted.

The maneuver remains granted until you decide to grant a different maneuver, stop projecting an aura, or cease granting the maneuver as a free action (at which point the maneuver you rendered unavailable to grant it is readied once again), even if you change auras or change readied maneuvers in the meantime. Allies who leave your aura for more than 1 round lose access to the granted maneuver even if they later re-enter your aura. A maneuver to be granted in this fashion must belong to one of the disciplines you can access by virtue of your command style. You may not use this class feature and your Small-Unit Tactics class feature at the same time, and the White Raven Tactics maneuver may not be shared with this feature.

On My Command (Ex): As an immediate action, when an ally affected by your aura initiates a maneuver, you may choose to modify it in one or both of the following ways:
If the maneuver involves a skill check and your key skill modifier is higher than their modifier for the relevant skill, they may roll a check with your key skill modifier in place of the check normally required.
If the maneuver allows a saving throw and your key ability modifier is higher than their modifier for the relevant ability score, they may determine the DC based on your key ability modifier in place of the ability modifier normally required.
A maneuver to be modified in this fashion must belong to one of the disciplines you can access by virtue of your command style, and it may be of a level no higher than the maximum level of maneuver you can grant through your Grant Maneuver class feature.

All Together Now (Ex): Once per encounter as an immediate action, choose a number of allies equal to your key ability modifier who have been granted a strike or boost via your Grant Maneuver ability. The chosen allies may immediately move their speed and either initiate the granted strike or initiate the granted boost and make a single melee attack. If multiple affected allies attack the same target, they gain a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls for each other affected ally attacking the same target and gain the same as a bonus to any save DC the maneuver requires.

A creature may not benefit from this class feature and White Raven Tactics in the same round.

Strategic Commander (Ex): The range of your aura increases to 600 feet (though all allies must still be able to see and/or hear you to benefit from it), and the time limit for allies losing the benefits of granted maneuvers or shared stances when they leave your aura increases to 1 minute.

Additionally, when using your Small-Unit Tactics or Grant Maneuver class features, you may choose to share two stances or grant two maneuvers at the same time, though each ally may only benefit from one of the two stances or maneuvers (of the ally's choice) at once time; each ally may switch between available stances or maneuvers as a free action at the start of their turn.

Once More Unto The Breach (Ex): Once per encounter, you may spend a standard action to allow all allies affected by your aura to move up to twice their speed and refresh all of their maneuvers (if applicable) as an immediate action.

Warlord (Ex): The range of your aura increases to 1 mile (though all allies must still be able to see and/or hear you to benefit from it), and the time limit for allies losing the benefits of granted maneuvers or shared stances when they leave your aura increases to 10 minutes.

Additionally, you may use your Small-Unit Tactics and Grant Maneuver class features at the same time, and each ally may benefit from one shared stance and one granted maneuver at a given time, switching between available stances and maneuvers as a free action at the start of their turn.

PairO'Dice Lost
2013-01-18, 04:54 PM
No comments from anyone? Surely this take on the marshal isn't that horrible.

Amechra
2013-01-18, 05:27 PM
This can get pretty darn strong.

I think that one of the choices (which there should be an Intuitive Commander archetype for; maybe Sense Motive as the key skill, and access to the White Raven, Setting Sun, and ?Devoted Spirit? disciplines?) should be able to access the Scarlet Bravura (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5569037) discipline.

Also, this. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528454/Sublime_Way_Variant_Marshal,_ala_Tempest_Stormwind )

PairO'Dice Lost
2013-01-18, 06:16 PM
This can get pretty darn strong.

Pretty darn strong is good; having a class that can really beef up large parties and armies aside from a DFI bard gives more choice for commander types. Do you think it crosses the line into overpowered territory, though?

Amechra
2013-01-18, 10:42 PM
No, I don't think it does; what do you think of my suggestion about the Wisdom-based Marshal?

playswithfire
2013-01-19, 07:16 AM
Interesting.

I tried something similar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181043) a while ago, though mine is a replacement class instead of a martial variant.

Zireael
2013-01-20, 09:42 AM
Love the ToB marshal... Brilliant!

Felyndiira
2013-01-20, 10:21 AM
This class is pretty scary, especially with the ability to share white raven stances. Just get an army of about 10,000 militiamen together, share 'Leading the Charge' with them, and each of them is now doing +10,000 damage with charge attacks. Alternatively, share Immortal Fortitude and suddenly you have an immortal peasant army. Share White Raven Tactics and now one ally of your choosing is now attacking 10,000 times in one round.

I'm curious, though - how does this class interact with maneuvers that you gain from martial study/stance or from another class? There's a lot of homebrew and official maneuvers out there that are reasonable for a single person, but are really ridiculous when applied to army warfare. Putting Rising Phoenix on an entire army, for instance, is basically instant win to your side. Share Walking in the Air and your army is now in the sky. That's not even getting started on the various ranged maneuvers out there.

PairO'Dice Lost
2013-01-21, 02:59 AM
No, I don't think it does; what do you think of my suggestion about the Wisdom-based Marshal?

That could certainly work. I'll add one.


This class is pretty scary, especially with the ability to share white raven stances. Just get an army of about 10,000 militiamen together, share 'Leading the Charge' with them, and each of them is now doing +10,000 damage with charge attacks.

Assuming they could all attack the same target, which they couldn't. They could get up to +8 if they're land-bound, +26 if everyone's flying. An Inspire Courage-focused warchanter can achieve similar numbers.


Alternatively, share Immortal Fortitude and suddenly you have an immortal peasant army.

I know. Isn't it great? :smallwink:


Share White Raven Tactics and now one ally of your choosing is now attacking 10,000 times in one round.

Good point. I houserule that you can only benefit from one out-of-turn extra action (WRT, snake's swiftness, etc.) per round, and had forgotten about the abuse there. I might just ban WRT from being shared; any other abusable maneuvers you can think of?


I'm curious, though - how does this class interact with maneuvers that you gain from martial study/stance or from another class? There's a lot of homebrew and official maneuvers out there that are reasonable for a single person, but are really ridiculous when applied to army warfare. Putting Rising Phoenix on an entire army, for instance, is basically instant win to your side. Share Walking in the Air and your army is now in the sky. That's not even getting started on the various ranged maneuvers out there.

The bit in On My Command that says all of these abilities only apply to maneuvers/stances gained via the class should be in Small-Unit Tactics and Grant Maneuver as well; I'll edit that in.

Felyndiira
2013-01-21, 03:26 AM
Assuming they could all attack the same target, which they couldn't. They could get up to +8 if they're land-bound, +26 if everyone's flying. An Inspire Courage-focused warchanter can achieve similar numbers.

Oh no, I didn't mean 'Leading the Attack'. Leading the charge is the White Raven stance that grants +1 bonus/IL to 'allies' on charge attack damage rolls regardless of target (although re-reading the ability, the 60 feet radius restriction to area would probably reduce the maximum bonus you can get on charges to +x00 or so, which is more reasonable).

I think if you take out disciplines gained from other sources, there aren't really any more maneuvers that can be exploited like this. Some are really devastating, of course (like the Leading the Attack bonus), although nothing that breaks the game overall that I can see.

PairO'Dice Lost
2013-01-21, 03:31 AM
Oh no, I didn't mean 'Leading the Attack'. Leading the charge is the White Raven stance that grants +1 bonus/IL to 'allies' on charge attack damage rolls regardless of target (although re-reading the ability, the 60 feet radius restriction to area would probably reduce the maximum bonus you can get on charges to +x00 or so, which is more reasonable).

I think if you take out disciplines gained from other sources, there aren't really any more maneuvers that can be exploited like this. Some are really devastating, of course (like the Leading the Attack bonus), although nothing that breaks the game overall that I can see.

I'll just spot-ban WRT, then, and leave the rest alone.