Need some rules clarification on regeneration

[Mongrel]

So I'm planning on sending a troll (in addition to other things) at my party next session. It's my first time using a creature with regeneration, and in reading the rules on it I need a little bit of clarification, particularly on this part:

"A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage."

This seems to suggest to me that a regenerating creature can be killed with a coup de grace only if said coup de grace was delivered with a weapon that normally bypasses the regeneration (like an flaming sword for a troll). Is this correct? It just seems to be confusingly worded.

[andromax]

This is correct. Fire or Acid.

Generally in our games we just pour an alchemist fire on it and that's that.. but if we took the time to make all those rolls it wouldn't have an impossible shot of surviving I suppose.

[Flickerdart]

You cannot use alchemist's fire to deliver a coup de grace - you may only use a melee weapon, bows, or crossbows. The damage dealt by alchemist's fire would make a lousy coup de grace anyway - an average DC of 17 from its low damage means that you need 3-4 vials before the troll is statistically likely to fail its save.

[andromax]

I didn't mean to imply that we were using an alchemist fire to deliver a "coup de grace," rather that we cut corners to speed up the game after a battle. More of an out of combat RP coup de grace.

[TuggyNE]

This seems to suggest to me that a regenerating creature can be killed with a coup de grace only if said coup de grace was delivered with a weapon that normally bypasses the regeneration (like an flaming sword for a troll). Is this correct? It just seems to be confusingly worded.

That's basically correct. Strictly speaking, it might be necessary to use scorching ray or similar (from point-blank range), as a flaming sword does not multiply its fire damage on a crit, but you can probably handwave that. (And a flaming burst weapon should be fine, I'd think.)

[Phelix-Mu]

Can you beat a helpless troll to death with a burning torch? And if it's already at negative hit points, can't you just light it on fire with burning oil (can't make a reflex save if it's helpless)?

[Flickerdart]

Can you beat a helpless troll to death with a burning torch?
A torch is explicitly an improvised weapon that deals a point of fire damage, so yes - but it would take a while.



And if it's already at negative hit points, can't you just light it on fire with burning oil (can't make a reflex save if it's helpless)?
Also yes, and it would also take a while. Amusingly, neither the helpless condition nor the entry on Reflex saves mention that you cannot make them while helpless, though.

[Phelix-Mu]

A torch is explicitly an improvised weapon that deals a point of fire damage, so yes - but it would take a while.


Also yes, and it would also take a while. Amusingly, neither the helpless condition nor the entry on Reflex saves mention that you cannot make them while helpless, though.

It is interesting to contemplate that making a saving throw requires no action on behalf of the character, indeed, it requires no effort, either.

I was assuming that someone had probably used fire damage on the troll while it was alive. Being slow with dealing damage isn't usually a big problem, unless you killed a very large number of trolls. This is a situation where things like reserve feats or warlocks or such can be a boon, as you can out-of-combat deal considerable damage every round.

What status is affecting the troll when you deal nonlethal damage in excess of it's total hp?

[TuggyNE]

What status is affecting the troll when you deal nonlethal damage in excess of it's total hp?

Unconsciousness.
When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.