PDA

View Full Version : Paladin's Smite



TopCheese
2013-01-16, 11:20 PM
So I see tons of hate for essentially every smite that has come up (3.5/PF/Homebrew), I even have things I hate/dislike about this mechanic. I've also noticed that a lot of arguments tend to focus mainly around the smite mechanic.

So what I would like to do is get help from the playground to make a few versions of smite that could actually work in a 3.5/PF game.

Q: So playground, what does smite evil really need? Can it ever be created in a way that will be not only useful but iconic?

A:
More smite attempts
Don't make it a "rage"
A way to not suck versus those damn dirty neutral spiders
Better accuracy/damage
Make smite more than just a damage dealer
Make it work with more than just melee weapons

Anyone want to help?

Edit: I like a lot of what people are saying. I want to bring some stuff together and and make a "core" smite ability and give an optional "Smite Exploits" that be given at 3rd level and also gain them every two levels after that (5,7,9, etc).

Paladin's Alignment: LG, CG, LE, and CE. There is no such thing as a Neutral Paladin, you may be a class that emulates the Paladin but you are no Paladin.

Smite: You gain up to 10 smites/encounter which should be enough. Smite works with any weapon you are holding.


As you get away from the Paladin’s alignment the Paladin’s smite becomes more accurate and powerful.

L/N/C Axis: For every step away from the Paladin’s alignment an enemy is the Paladin’s smite becomes more accurate. The gods of Law hate the gods of Chaos (chaotic gods hate the lawful gods just the same) then they do the gods of Neutrality.

• If the Paladin is attempting to smite a creature of the same ethical alignment (L/C) the Paladin gains a bonus on the attack roll equal to half the number of levels the Paladin has gained.
• If the Paladin is attempting to smite a creature of neutral alignment on the ethical axis then the Paladin gains a bonus on the attack roll equal to 3/4 of the number of levels the Paladin has gained.
• If the Paladin attempts to smite a creature of the opposite alignment on the ethical axis then the Paladin gains a bonus on the attack roll equal to the Paladin levels obtained.

G/N/E Axis: For every step away from the Paladin’s alignment an enemy on the morality axis the Paladin’s smite becomes more powerful. The gods of Good hate the gods of Evil (as do Evil toward Good) more than they do the gods of Neutrality.

• If the Paladin hits with a smite on a creature of the same moral alignment (G/E) the Paladin gains a bonus on the damage roll equal to the Paladin’s Cha Mod (minimum +1).
• If the Paladin hits with a smite on a creature of the neutral alignment (N) the Paladin gains a bonus on the damage roll equal to 5 + Paladin’s Cha Mod (minimum +1).
• If the Paladin hits with a smite on a creature of the opposite moral alignment (G/E) the Paladin gains a bonus on the damage roll equal to 10 + Paladin’s Cha Mod (minimum +1 Cha Mod).

Smite may be used 1/encounter at first level, 2/encounter at second level, and an additional smite/encounter every two levels after second level (1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc.)

LG/CG Paladins: If you are wielding a Holy Weapon then you gain +5 Smites/Encounter. If you are wielding a Holy Avenger then you gain +10 Smites/Encounter.

LE/CE Paladins: If you are wielding a Unholy Weapon then you gain +5 Smites/Encounter. If you are wielding a Unholy Avenger (is there an actual name for this?) then you gain +10 Smites/Encounter.


Smite Exploit:

Every time you gain an additional smite from the Paladin class you learn an additional exploit to use for divine judgement. Choose one of the the following exploits at level 1,2,4,6, etc.

Maneuver Smite

Once every 5 rounds when you smite you may forgo your normal smite attack. You instead gain your normal Smite attack bonus on any combat maneuver you perform. You do not provoke AoO and you are counted as a creature of 1 size larger if it is advantageous. If the maneuver (such as disarm) does damage you may add 1/2 your smite damage to the target as additional damage (the target would be the weapon or item carried). At Paladin Level 10 and Paladin Level 20 your are treated as an additional size category larger when using Maneuver Smite.

Note: This makes a dungeoncrasher paladin really really fun to play :p

Mystical Smite

Once every 5 rounds when you use smite you may forgo your normal smite attack. In its place you may channel any divine spell that you obtained from your god through your weapon. Any time the weapon you channel the spell through strikes a creature, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the Paladin desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally).

At Paladin level 10, 15, and 20 you gain any 2 spells of each level you are able to cast. These spells are added to the Paladin spell list as divine spells. The spells added may originally be from any list.

This spell never harms you. This spell doesn't count against your daily spells/day but you can't combine this with any other sort of smite unless that smite says so.

Note: This is like having a spell storing weapon.. I need to edit it a bit but you get the idea.... Now that I have my laptop I can try to edit this better.

Smite Barrier/Smite Magical Barrier

Once every 5 rounds a Paladin may give up a use of Smite to destroy a Mundane or Magical Barrier.

To destroy a mundane barrier the Paladin makes a weapon attack against a non-magical door, wall, or anything else (non-living object) that is blocking the way of the Paladin (or just unlucky enough to tick off said Paladin... lol). If the Paladin hits the "barrier" then treat the attack as a critical at X4 multiplier that bypasses DR and Hardness.

To destroy a magical barrier such as "mage armor" or "wall of force" (5 ft section of wall of force) the Paladin gives up one use of Smite and makes a special attack. Make an attack with a weapon versus 10 + caster level, if the attack hits then the magical barrier is destroyed.

Both of these are are used as an attack action and may be used as part of a Full Attack.

Note: Awesomesauce even if a bit strong. I'll try to tone it down or break it up a bit.

Dispelling Smite (free action)
Think Spell Sunder but different effects. Caster has blink? Not anymore!

Once every 3 rounds a Paladin may replace the normal bonuses of their Smite to strike a creature or object with a magical effect upon it. As part of your normal weapon attack you make a dispelling check. The dispelling check is 1d20 + Cha Mod vs. 10 + Spell Level.

Smite Lies
Bonus to diplomacy when telling the truth. Roll twice and take better result.

Smite Truth
Bonus to bluff when lying. Roll twice and take better result.

Smite Creature
Gain a bonus to smite versus certain creatures. May change this occasionally when you pray before a mission or something like that.... Perhaps 1/month *shrug*

When attacking a creature of the chosen type you may forgo your normal bonus attack roll from smite in order to roll 2d20 and take the better result on all attack rolls.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-16, 11:45 PM
My preference (ie, what I did in my fix) was to put it on a cooldown timer, like a dragon's breath weapon-- starting at 1d4 rounds, and working its way down to 1d4-2 by higher levels. I also kicked the damage up to 3/level (comparable to 1d6/level).

I'm not a huge fan of long-lasting, "holy rage" smites. To me, the word "smite" indicates a single, overpowering attack. Not saying that the holy rage mechanics are bad, just that they don't scream "smite!" to me. (Or, more precisely, I can't see myself screaming "smite evil!" while using them)

GunbladeKnight
2013-01-16, 11:47 PM
There are several things I would do to adjust it:

1) Make it per encounter, and it is not used when you smite a non-evil creature. It also deals 5+ paladin levels damage.

2) Make it per encounter. You get the bonus to attack rolls no matter what. Against evil creatures you deal 5+ paladin levels damage.

3) Make it per encounter (quite the pattern here). It is a swift action that allows you to add your charisma to attack rolls for one turn, and deals paladin levels damage to evil creatures.

4) Give it a 5 round cool down, a la binder.

5) Make it a static ability that allows you to add your charisma to damage vs evil/undead creatures.

TopCheese
2013-01-17, 12:14 AM
I have some responses to both of you but for now (since I'm heading to bed) I figured I would ask this question.

Would you be against combining smite evil with detect evil? As in smite evil can only be activated after detecting evil.

Think of it like a fighter plane locking in on a target (detect evil) and then shotting a missile (smite evil).

Could this work somehow?

toapat
2013-01-17, 01:11 AM
I have some responses to both of you but for now (since I'm heading to bed) I figured I would ask this question.

Would you be against combining smite evil with detect evil? As in smite evil can only be activated after detecting evil.

Think of it like a fighter plane locking in on a target (detect evil) and then shotting a missile (smite evil).

Could this work somehow?

Theoretically? maybe

gameplay wise? not at all.

Basically, you have a number of problems with smiting:

Usage: Its always limited to the number of times you can use it. This doesnt help.

Practicality: Using it is a one time choice per day, and you have to judge that use extremely carefully.

Versatility: Can only be done with Melee, or against a single marked target.

Damage: Low up front, but will redeem itself later.

Flow: It wastes actions to use.

Ashtagon
2013-01-17, 01:28 AM
Combine the requirement to have detected evil in the target with the ability to use detect evil as a free action against any creature you hit for damage with a melee weapon, and you may be on to something.

Sacrieur
2013-01-17, 01:55 AM
They don't tend to like it because it's not always useful.

Consider the ToB classes.

They get maneuvers and stances they can use, and that's what they're limited in. They can pick enough so this class feature is useful in a lot of ways.

With the paladin you have a few things, that's it. Because what if I don't need to smite that many times per day? Or worse, what if you don't need to cure disease three times a week? It's a wasted class feature that is accounted for in your classes power.

It's like handing your paladin a holy avenger and going, "kay, but you can only use this in two attacks per day and only on days that start with T. Oh, but because you have a holy avenger we're only going to give you 3/4 BAB."

ArcturusV
2013-01-17, 02:26 AM
My worry about Smite is that it's very situational. Either quite good, or quite bad. At low level this isn't a huge concern, even if you give Extra Smite uses it's just not getting a lot of mileage. Of course if you don't run into any Evil creatures then it's wholly wasted, always a concern as I can think of a lot of enemies my players tend to run into that aren't necessarily Evil.

One thing I like to do with it is drop the Melee requirement. I find it opens up a lot of flexibility if you can just throw a spear and smite, or use a ranged touch attack spell to smite.

Course the inability to use your powers unless you run into a particular encounter type is what really limits the power of the Smite in my book. A lot of nitpicky things like being stuck with Melee attack range, or damage that starts out too low or too few times per day is more crippled just by being in the wrong encounter sometimes.

Your level 1 Paladin gets attacked by Giant Spiders. Well they're Neutral so you are basically just a fighter with one less feat.

And that's what kills it more often then not. But when you get to use it? Feels good. Feels rewarding. You get a turn where the Fighter goes "Damn, wish I could do that!"

Though honestly the Smite damage could probably be bumped up, and times per day bumped up with no issue. But it's that damned Giant Spider encounter issue that will always bite you in the ass.

Paladin could really use some power/ability that basically lets him swap his Smites and such for a slightly less effective, but more general ability. Like being able to trade in a Smite Use/Cure Disease use for a Spell or something. A Smite for a 2nd level or lower spell, a Cure Disease for any Paladin Spell?

Might be a bit too much. But it's an idea I've been thinking of while I worked on my Variant Paladin class, and thus why they get to trade in Smites for other effects.

TopCheese
2013-01-17, 07:06 AM
Hmm a detect evil that is a free action, use only on one creature per round, but can't be fooled or blocked. This doesn't just tell you if the person/object is evil, but their true alignment.

Fluff it as you are borrowing the power of your god's eyes for a brief moment. Although you can use it at will and as a free action you can't just spam it real fast to check a crowd.

(Change name to detect infidel or channel god's eyes *shrug*).

How about different smites based on who you are hitting so you essentially always have something to do. Any of these can be used at-will but to change from one to another requires a cool down. Or even base it on how different the alignment is from the paladins...

L/N/C axis: As you get awa from Lawful your smite gets more powerful.The bonus to attack rolls goes up by X for every step away from Lawful (say lawful is +1/2 level, Nuetral is + 3/4 level, and Evil is + level).

G/N/E axis: Same with L/N/C except this is damage.+cha mod against good creatures (CG/NG heritics exist you know), 5 + Cha mod versus neutral creatures, and 10 + cha mod versus evil.

You use detect evil as a free action and find out the enemy's alignment and then you consult a chart (yaaay charts) or cards or whatever to know your attack/damage output versus that enemy... You don't have to use your smite evil if you don't want to but no matter what it will be a bonus.

You can't smite LG enemies unless they are branded as heritics by your church.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-17, 10:19 AM
Maybe a smite that does the standard 1/level against any foe, and 3+/level against evil? And can be used with any weapon?

Deepbluediver
2013-01-17, 10:51 AM
I'm not a huge fan of long-lasting, "holy rage" smites. To me, the word "smite" indicates a single, overpowering attack. Not saying that the holy rage mechanics are bad, just that they don't scream "smite!" to me. (Or, more precisely, I can't see myself screaming "smite evil!" while using them)

I'm still working my way through the rest of the thread, but this makes it sound like "Smite" should be a special form of combat manuever. I.e., it's a standard or full-round action with (possibly with different calculations than attack roll vs. AC) and maybe it should have a different style of effect.

Save or Die?
Level loss?
Ability drain?
etc.


Edit: After reading everything, I have two new comments.
One option is to make different forms of smite: i.e. let your smite mimic something like the TOB Strike manuevers.

The second thing is that maybe smite needs more targets that it can be used on. I realize that the following chain of logic has some holes in it, but what if:

Paladins are good
Therefore anyone attacking a paladin is evil
The Paladin can use smite on anyone who attacks him

which addresses the "useless on nuetral creatures, etc" issue.



Maybe a smite that does the standard 1/level against any foe, and 3+/level against evil? And can be used with any weapon?

What weapons can't it be used with? The SRD just says "any normal melee attack".
....
oh wait, do you mean ranged weapons? That makes sense I guess.

TopCheese
2013-01-17, 11:33 AM
I like the idea of giving the smite additional abilities such as Save or Dies or Level Loss.

However at first I thought they would be spammed but then again you could make them have the refresh mechanic instead of the Smite Evil itself. Heck the PF barbarian rage powers could be a guidline to these effects. (These would be alternate options not every person would like this on a paladin).

Example: Maneuver Smite

Once every 5 rounds when you smite you may forgo your normal smite attack. You instead gain your normal Smite bonus (att/dmg if apply) on any combat manuever you perform. You do not provoke AoO and you are counted as a creature of 1 size larger if it is advantageous. If the maneuver (such as disarm) does damage you may add 1/2 your smite damage to the target as additional damage (the target would be the weapon or item carried).

Note: This makes a dungeoncrasher paladin really really fun to play :p

Example 2: Mystical Smite

Once every 5 rounds when you use smite you may forgo your normal smite attack. You may channel any divine sell that you can cast (if you previously had cleric levels you can cast them) that you receive from your god. This channel is through your weapon as part of a normal attack. This spell acts as normal and is centered on the target. This spell never harms you. This spell doesn't count against your daily spells/day but you can't combine this with any other sort of smite unless that smite says so.

Note: This is like having a spell storing weapon.. I need to edit it a bit but you get the idea.

Also funny enough when you attempt to fix smite it is almost like you are trying to fix the Paladin *sigh*. Not my intent but whatever.

Also I like the idea a Paladin should be able to use any weapon with smite. I can see a crazy archer paladin who smites foes from a mile or two away...

TopCheese
2013-01-17, 08:48 PM
I'm still working my way through the rest of the thread, but this makes it sound like "Smite" should be a special form of combat manuever. I.e., it's a standard or full-round action with (possibly with different calculations than attack roll vs. AC) and maybe it should have a different style of effect.

Save or Die?
Level loss?
Ability drain?
etc.



With the Mystic Smite Exploit the Paladin now has the ability to do this. I will be wording it so that the Paladin actually is gaining higher than 4th level spells. Perhaps make theme specific list to act as domain spells.




The second thing is that maybe smite needs more targets that it can be used on. I realize that the following chain of logic has some holes in it, but what if:

Paladins are good
Therefore anyone attacking a paladin is evil
The Paladin can use smite on anyone who attacks him

which addresses the "useless on nuetral creatures, etc" issue.


I like your thinking though I think if a Paladin thought like that he wouldn't really last to long as a Paladin... :p

But I did adress this since it is one of the worst problems to have... Damn those neutral spiders!



What weapons can't it be used with? The SRD just says "any normal melee attack".
....
oh wait, do you mean ranged weapons? That makes sense I guess.

Yeah ranged smiting is sooo happening if someone wants to go that route... I highly doubt it will break anything.

Well it will break the Ranger/Fighter's heart but really that has happened ages ago :P

Note: I've updated my original post.

Amechra
2013-01-17, 09:25 PM
I've always wanted to do something like my Corpse Knight's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248390) (old version, but I haven't revised the relevant class feature over the different versions) Panoply of Bone, based off attacking/defending against evil creatures.

Because I think blessing your weapons and armor in a careful ritual seems more paladin-like than "I hit 'em harder." (I mean, I kinda base my view of Paladins off of old stories about knights and knight's vigils, so...)

ArcturusV
2013-01-17, 09:55 PM
Ranged Smiting and Spell Storing. All I could really want out of a Paladin's smite.

Unless you count more use per days. I would instantly trade in my progression in Remove Disease to gain an additional Smite per Day. Nor do I think that'd really break things open.

Acanous
2013-01-17, 10:20 PM
Personally, I feel a Paladin's smite should be more than just damage.
Creatures fighting the Paladin don't fear a little bonus damage. That's paltry and doesn't make up for taking levels in Paladin.

Smite Evil should be something Evil creatures *Fear*. Something that even Evil Wizards have to worry about. Paladins are supposed to champion their alignment, not be another meat-monkey with a few nigh-useless tricks.

My idea:

Smite Evil
As a champion of Rightiousness, you channel your fury against the evils of the world, becomming an instrument of divine wrath.

At the beginning of your turn as a Swift Action, you may declare your intent to Smite Evil. For the remainder of the round, you gain the benefits of True Seeing in regards to evil creatures, and spells or abilities empoyed by Evil Creatures. You also are aware of the position of all evil creatures within a 60 foot radius in the same manner as though you had spent three rounds focusing on Detect Evil.

Each attack you make against Evil creatures during this round gains your charisma bonus to hit, and your paladin level in bonus damage. This damage is always considered lethal and bypasses both regeneration and damage reduction from any source.
In addition, spells you cast that target Evil creatures gain your Charisma bonus to the save DC, and you add your Paladin level to any checks to penetrate Spell Resistance. This is an untyped bonus.

Evil creatures struck by a spell or attack you make while Smiting must make a Fortitude save equal to 10+ 1/2 your Paladin level+ your Charisma modifier or lose their next turn.

TopCheese
2013-01-17, 10:55 PM
Ranged Smiting and Spell Storing. All I could really want out of a Paladin's smite.

Unless you count more use per days. I would instantly trade in my progression in Remove Disease to gain an additional Smite per Day. Nor do I think that'd really break things open.

Yeah I think more Smites + Options is the way to go. I'm currently making a fix to the paladin (accident I swear) and the total number of Smites/Encounter is 10. However you will get Smite Exploits so you don't have to just do damage.



Personally, I feel a Paladin's smite should be more than just damage.
Creatures fighting the Paladin don't fear a little bonus damage. That's paltry and doesn't make up for taking levels in Paladin.

Smite Evil should be something Evil creatures *Fear*. Something that even Evil Wizards have to worry about. Paladins are supposed to champion their alignment, not be another meat-monkey with a few nigh-useless tricks.


Please let me know what you guys think of the Exploits and if I'm going in the right direction.

The Smite Barrier/Smite Magical Barrier should scare the crap out of casters. Force cage? Pshaw! Mage Armor? Pshaw.

Hmm I need to let it equate miss chance = barrier and then a Paladin really will be scary as hell.

I don't have time to put everything on here right now but here is a list of abilities I will be putting on my Paladin.


Divine Aura: As Aura of Good except is based on Paladin’s alignment (LE,LG,CE,CG).

Detect Soul: Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Law, and Detect Chaos. Gain the two opposite of your Paladin’s alignment.

Smite: New Ability see OP

Divine Grace: As the 3.5 Paladin ability.

Divine Health: As 3.5 paladin ability “Divine Health”.

Channel Energy (xd6): As Pathfinder Cleric ability. (through 20 levels gain 6d6)

Bonus Feat: Gain a bonus combat or teamwork feat. This feat may be pathfinder or its 3.5 counterpart.

Divine Gift: Gain a bonus based on the level. This is a gift directly from your god.
1. Gain Feather Fall at-will (level 6)
2. Gain Levitate (as spell, self only) a number of times/day equal to Cha mod (level 10)
3. Use Fly as the spell a number of minutes/day equal to Cha mod + Con Mod (level 14)
4. Gain Telepathy 30 (or some other similar awesome ability) (level 18)

Remove Affliction: As a standard action the Paladin may remove one or more afflictions. Each time the Paladin gains “Remove Affliction” the paladin learns a new affliction to remove. (Need to fix these levels I think but I’ll do that later) level 7(I), 9 (II), 11 (II), 13 (III). Specialize.
• Blindness (I)
• Deafness (I)
• Confusion (II)
• Dazed (I)
• Dazzled (II)
• Energy Drain (III)
• Exhaustion (I)
• Fatigue (II)
• Frightened (II)
• Nauseated (I)
• Panicked (III)
• Paralyzed (II)
• Petrified (III)
• Shaken (I)
• Sickened (II)
• Staggered (II)
• Stunned (I)

Divine Audience: The paladin may 1/week (or perhaps 1/ month) cast plane shift except the paladin may only go to his god’s plane and never misses his mark. His god either sends a personal messenger to escort the paladin around the plane or invites the Paladin for a quick chat. I need to refluff this but essentially you made it to level 17 so your god has taken an interest in you.

If you are a dwarven paladin you literally get to drink with your god/angel before you die. How cool is that?



Paladin


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Smite/Enc|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|1|Divine Aura, Detect Soul, Smite!

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|2|Divine Grace, Channel Energy 1d6

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|2|Aura of Courage, Divine Health

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|3|Channel Energy 2d6

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|3|Bonus Feat

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|4|Divine Gift I

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|4|Remove Affliction (Level 1)

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|5|Channel Energy 3d6

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|5|Remove Affliction (Level 2)

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|6|Bonus Feat, Divine Gift II

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|6|Remove Affliction (Level 2)

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|7|Channel Energy 4d6

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|7|Remove Affliction (Level 3)

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|8|Divine Gift III

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|8|Bonus Feat

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|9|Channel Energy 5d6

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|9|Divine Audience

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|10|Divine Gift IV

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|10|Channel Energy 6d6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|10|Bonus Feat,

[/table]

Needs a really good capstone, something fricken awesome and I think I know what it is... Just need to work on it later.


I'm going to just make a new thread to talk about the Paladin.