Best core Wizard spells to empower?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I just went from level 17 to 19 in a (mostly) core only game with my wizard and have gained a bonus feat to spend on metamagic. I already have Quicken and Sculpt (he allowed one non-core feat from his small selection of other books), and I have Evocation and Enchantment as banned schools. I lack any tricks to reduce metamagic cost, and cannot afford/find for sale a normal or greater meta rod of empower, so no spell above 7th level is a practical option, either.

Given these constraints, what would you say are the best core spells I could use empower on? Or should I just get Extend Spell instead, despite already having a lesser and normal meta rod of it?

I figure Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation, Vampiric Touch, Stinking Cloud, and maybe Spell Turning (does it mess with spells you cast on yourself?) would be good with empower. Possibly a summon monster for the 1d4+1 option, but that would be 4 spell levels up and I don't think any creature en masse is that useful at such a weak level. Disintigrate is tempting just to be able to throw down 60d6, but is probably a poor use since it has two points of "failure" (I would consider an 8th level slot for 5d6 * 1.5 damage to be a "failure") - the "don't roll a 1" touch attack and the fort save. And SR.... 3 points of failure....

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Empower's kind of an odd duck. Sure, you get x1.5 effect, but the downside is the +2 Spell Level Adjustment which sucks.

Why Empower Fireball when you can Freezing Orb? They're both 5th level spells, Freezing Orb has a higher average damage output due to a higher cap on damage output, and has additional utility.

Therefore, the spells you are wanting to Empower are those which:

a) Gain benefit from the feat. Stinking cloud doesn't qualify, there's nothing TO empower. Either they are nauseated or they aren't. Enervation, however, does.

b) Have some ability which can be empowered that cannot be otherwise easily duplicated. This is pointing back to the Empowered Fireball < Freezing Sphere example. Basically, if you can find a spell two levels higher that does about the same thing, Empower is a wash.

c) Are still worthwhile for the spell slot you are looking at. If some other spell in the next couple of spell levels pretty much obviates it, then there's not much point in doing it, now is there? For example, why Empowered Stinking Cloud as a 5th level spell when you can Cloudkill?

For that reason, the only spell that really benefits from Empower in the entire SRD/PhB is... Enervation.

Ray of Enfeeblement deals a strength penalty... by the time you have third level spells, you can just Slow and produce a much better effect

Vampiric Touch is plagued by one limiting factor... you have to touch the target. You don't want to ever get that close to something hostile.

Spell Turning is a 7th level spell, an Empowered version is a 9th level spell. By that time, you've got better things to do.

It would make more sense for a Sorcerer wanting some tactical versatility, but not for a Wizard.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Stinking Cloud makes victims nauseated while in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after they leave, so I thought empowering it would help for that. Especially since many of the things we fight are teleporting outsiders/casters, so they won't be in the cloud for more than a round.
Cloudkill really can't be compared. Stinking Cloud robs enemies of actions, Cloudkill does a small amount of Con damage, counts as poison (seriously, what ISN'T immune to it by our level? we buff w/ hero's feast daily ourselves!), and has an annoying habit of moving on you.

Ray of Enfeeble is 1d6+5 x1.5, that's... an average of 12.75, it's not great, but for a 3rd level slot it's not awful, either....

As for Vampiric Touch, I have enough Tumble ranks to auto-succeed at DC 15 and the Fly-by Attack feat. And monsters tend to come to me anyway. So needing to melee touch isn't completely horrible.

[Chilingsworth]

Stinking Cloud makes victims nauseated while in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after they leave, so I thought empowering it would help for that. Especially since many of the things we fight are teleporting outsiders/casters, so they won't be in the cloud for more than a round.
Cloudkill really can't be compared. Stinking Cloud robs enemies of actions, Cloudkill does a small amount of Con damage, counts as poison (seriously, what ISN'T immune to it by our level? we buff w/ hero's feast daily ourselves!), and has an annoying habit of moving on you.

Ray of Enfeeble is 1d6+5 x1.5, that's... an average of 12.75, it's not great, but for a 3rd level slot it's not awful, either....

As for Vampiric Touch, I have enough Tumble ranks to auto-succeed at DC 15 and the Fly-by Attack feat. And monsters tend to come to me anyway. So needing to melee touch isn't completely horrible.

Funny, I thought stinking cloud also counted as poison? :smallconfused:

As for vampiric touch (or any other melee touch spell) Isn't spectral hand a safer option? (though your method also works.)

And as for the teleporing baddies, that's what dimensional anchor is for. :smallwink:

Also, I agree with you about ray of enfeeblement.

Lastly, how did you get a bonus feat between levels 17-19? I thought you got them every 5 levels? Do you mean your regular level 18 feat?

Oh, and what is your specialized school?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I got a feat because it was my 10th wizard level. Prestige classes FTW.

I also got a general feat, which I'm even less certain of what to do with, though Improved Initiative (finally) seems pretty solid.

Dimensional Anchor: The DM throws a LOT of enemies at us and I always find myself wanting/needing to do a million different things each combat round, so laying down dim anchors left and right is not terribly practical.

Stinking Cloud counts as a poison in PF, but in 3E, it does not. That actually tricked me out a while back, I've gotten used to PF rules a bit too much.

Spectral Hand is a safer option, I just never feel like setting it up. And I find myself engaged in melee often enough anyway.

I am a Transmuter, though I have Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), as required by Initiate of the 7-fold Veil (DM also allowed me a single non-core PrC; though he nerfed IotSFV to not get immediate action wardings and I can't use double warding w/ the indigo and violet colors), which combined w/ Skill Focus (Spellcraft), really ate into my feats. I was formerly a Wiz 9 / IotSFV 7 / Archmage 1, I am now Wiz 10 / IotSFV 7 / Archmage 2. My character concept is to mostly use buff and protective spells/effects and use arcane magic to protect/help others and seek out evil casters that abuse their power to terrorize the weaker folks. Part of the reason I get melee company so often is due to me using the Area warding as an aegis to protect the melee PCs. It's probably not "optimal", but I like it, and the wardings have petrified, plane shifted, or killed plenty of things thus far to make many seemingly overwhelming encounters winnable. The other PCs sometimes move to provoke AoOs on purpose just to trigger my wardings. :)

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm, If you're a transmuter, and primarily a buffer/debuffer, I'd go with extend spell, or maybe highten spell (if you don't already have it.)

Actually, what is your feat list currently?

Also, your current spell list?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Stinking Cloud makes victims nauseated while in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after they leave, so I thought empowering it would help for that. Especially since many of the things we fight are teleporting outsiders/casters, so they won't be in the cloud for more than a round.They won't be teleporting or casting while Nauseated.


Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.



Cloudkill really can't be compared. Stinking Cloud robs enemies of actions, Cloudkill does a small amount of Con damage, counts as poison (seriously, what ISN'T immune to it by our level? we buff w/ hero's feast daily ourselves!), and has an annoying habit of moving on you.If they are immune to poison, odds are they are also immune to Nauseated. Guaranteed Con damage is better than a chance of Nauseated, if the saves get a bit iffy. Also, pairing it with Forcecage is made of win. Trap them in the cage with the cloudkill... "Okay, you just stay in there until you die... I'm going to go fight someone relevant now"


Ray of Enfeeble is 1d6+5 x1.5, that's... an average of 12.75, it's not great, but for a 3rd level slot it's not awful, either....By then you have Grease, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud... all three of which are Save or Lose effects, each one targeting a different save. I'd MUCH rather hit a charging orc with a Glitterdust than a Ray of Enfeeblement. First off, since it is now blind, the rogue gets free sneak attacks as much as he wants. Second, he's not going to be hitting anything any time soon with a 50% miss chance. Much more debilitating than a strength PENALTY (not stat damage).


As for Vampiric Touch, I have enough Tumble ranks to auto-succeed at DC 15 and the Fly-by Attack feat. And monsters tend to come to me anyway. So needing to melee touch isn't completely horrible.

*facepalm*

Tumbling in isn't the problem. The resulting full attack the following round because you ended your turn adjacent to an opponent, however, is. Twenty or so temporary hit points is not going to save you from two hundred damage being returned. At least please tell me you have Mirror Image up for such situations?

Extend Spell, however, can be quite handy for you, as it makes all the 10 min/lv spells end up 'all day long' effectively. 200 minutes, for example, is three and a third hours. Double that and you are closing in on seven (six and two thirds, to be precise) hours. Enough for a full adventuring day.

[Chilingsworth]

With the fly-by attack feat, he can cast his spell in the middle of his move. He won't be adjacent. Still, vampiric touch is kinda a waste of a spell slot, imo. debuffing/battlefield control, buffing your allies, or summoning minions is the way to go.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

With the fly-by attack feat, he can cast his spell in the middle of his move. He won't be adjacent. Still, vampiric touch is kinda a waste of a spell slot, imo. debuffing/battlefield control, buffing your allies, or summoning minions is the way to go.

Can't tumble while flying, which means he provokes AoO on the way out. In fact, depending on the reach of the monster, he might end up doing it twice, once on the way in and once on the way out.

If you are flying and your opponent isn't... the solution is to keep it that way and rain down death and destruction, not give up your priceless tactical advantage.

[Chilingsworth]

Can't tumble while flying, which means he provokes AoO on the way out. In fact, depending on the reach of the monster, he might end up doing it twice, once on the way in and once on the way out.

If you are flying and your opponent isn't... the solution is to keep it that way and rain down death and destruction, not give up your priceless tactical advantage.

You can't? where does it say that?:smallconfused:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hmm, If you're a transmuter, and primarily a buffer/debuffer, I'd go with extend spell, or maybe highten spell (if you don't already have it.)

Actually, what is your feat list currently?

Also, your current spell list?

I loathe Heighten, *that* seems like a waste compared to just using an upgraded version of whatever spell. Extend could work, but I already have rods for it, they're cheap.

Feats: Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Quicken Spell, SF & GSF (Abjuration), Sculpt Spell, Flyby Attack, SF (Transmutation)

Spells known:
Level 0: All
Level 1: Alarm, Chill Touch, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Aura, Protection from Evil, Ray of Enfeeblement, Reduce Person, Silent Image
Level 2: Alter Self, Command Undead, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Knock, Mirror Image, Pyrotechnics, Resist Energy, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Spectral Hand, Web
Level 3: Arcane Sight, Blink, Explosive Runes, Fly, Haste, Major Image, Phantom Steed, Ray of Exhaustion, Secret Page, Shrink Item, Stinking Cloud, Tongues, Vampiric Touch
Level 4: Arcane Eye, Black Tentacles, Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Illusory Wall, Polymorph, Secure Shelter, Shadow Conjuration, Solid Fog, Stone Skin
Level 5: Baleful Polymorph, Major Creation, Fabricate, Overland Flight, Passwall, Permanency, Shadow Evocation, Telekinesis, Telepathic Bond, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud, Wall of Stone, Waves of Fatigue
Level 6: Analyze Dweomer, Antimagic Field, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Greater Dispel Magic, Guards and Wards, Mage’s Lucubration, Move Earth, Repulsion, Stone to Flesh, True Seeing
Level 7: Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Teleport, Limited Wish, Maginificent Mansion, Phase Door, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity, Sequester, Spell Turning, Waves of Exhaustion
Level 8: Dimensional Lock, Discern Location, Greater Shadow Evocation, Horrid Wilting, Maze, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Polymorph Any Object, Prismatic Wall
Level 9: Freedom, Gate, Shades, Shapechange, Summon Monster IX, Time Stop, Wish

[StreamOfTheSky]

They won't be teleporting or casting while Nauseated.

True, though I'm pretty sure my DM wqould let quickened spells and SLAs work. And a lot of foes are so big that walking out isn't that hard.


If they are immune to poison, odds are they are also immune to Nauseated. Guaranteed Con damage is better than a chance of Nauseated, if the saves get a bit iffy. Also, pairing it with Forcecage is made of win. Trap them in the cage with the cloudkill... "Okay, you just stay in there until you die... I'm going to go fight someone relevant now"

How do you figure? Many things have poison immunity. Very few things are either immune to nauseated or fortitude saves. Undead and constructs are basically it. Forcecage is from a banned school and costs a truckload to cast. And if I tried to use a shadow spell to mimick it, I'd run into the issue where, "Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm)


By then you have Grease, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud... all three of which are Save or Lose effects, each one targeting a different save. I'd MUCH rather hit a charging orc with a Glitterdust than a Ray of Enfeeblement. First off, since it is now blind, the rogue gets free sneak attacks as much as he wants. Second, he's not going to be hitting anything any time soon with a 50% miss chance. Much more debilitating than a strength PENALTY (not stat damage).

I do use those spells a lot (glitterdust is basically the reason I wanted sculpt spell, lol), though the save DCs are a bit low... RoE has no save. That RoE is a penalty and not damage is actually a boon, IMO, since a lot of monsters are immune to ability damage, but none are immune to untyped penalties.


Can't tumble while flying, which means he provokes AoO on the way out. In fact, depending on the reach of the monster, he might end up doing it twice, once on the way in and once on the way out.

If you are flying and your opponent isn't... the solution is to keep it that way and rain down death and destruction, not give up your priceless tactical advantage.



*facepalm*

Tumbling in isn't the problem. The resulting full attack the following round because you ended your turn adjacent to an opponent, however, is. Twenty or so temporary hit points is not going to save you from two hundred damage being returned. At least please tell me you have Mirror Image up for such situations?

You can tumble while flying. No where does it say you cannot. And i have magical, non-winged flight, so it isn't even a "doesn't seem realistic" issue. And the DM has allowed flying tumbles just fine anyway, so it's a moot point. I would never intentionally end my turn within full attack reach of a foe if I can help it at all.

And the combat rules state that moving while threatened only provokes one AoO from a foe, regardless of how many spaces you move out of that he threatens. In any case, I haven't been doing melee touch spells up to now. Empowered Vampiric Touch was just an idea. I mainly got Flyby to use with Wall wardings to pop through and back. But in practice I've almost entirely been using the area warding to protect people, combat is usually too spread out or mobile for the wall to be useful.


Extend Spell, however, can be quite handy for you, as it makes all the 10 min/lv spells end up 'all day long' effectively. 200 minutes, for example, is three and a third hours. Double that and you are closing in on seven (six and two thirds, to be precise) hours. Enough for a full adventuring day.

My problem is that extend is actually a super cheap rod and I have 2 (lesser and normal) already, so getting it as a feat seems unnecessary.

[kme]

Well, most of the best uses were already mentioned. Aside from those I only see False Life, Prying Eyes, Circle of Death and Undeath to Death getting any potentially useful benefit.

Still, that makes the list:

Ray of Enfeeblement - solid option
False Life - this is always useful
Vampiric Touch
Stinking Cloud?
Enervation - makes it more reliable and potentially brutal
Cloudkill - probably worth it
Prying Eyes
Circle of Death
Undeath to Death
Disintegrate - it's reliable enough against undead/constructs
Spell Turning - I could see this mattering

Even if you only end up using enervation, false life and RoE it could still be worth getting empower. But yeah, in core it's mostly to be used with evocations.

[ericgrau]

Why Empower Fireball when you can Freezing Orb? They're both 5th level spells, Freezing Orb has a higher average damage output due to a higher cap on damage output, and has additional utility.
Couldn't find freezing orb. Freezing sphere is level 6 and only has a 10 foot radius. Orb of ice is not area damage so it hits half as many targets or less. Generally empowered damage spells do much more damage than spells of the same level.

But the really good targets are non-damage things like ray of enfeeblement, false life (if you don't have spell compendium) and enervation. Summoning spam might be good for utility tricks exploiting the summon's special abilities. Even if your foe has area damage they'll at least have 1 round to spam their thing. Or try something like a wall of elephants (~5x15 ft.) to hold back foes. Or bone devils to cast fly on the whole party or many dimensional anchors on foes. Babau to spam dispels and hope to get lucky on half of them. Etc. Take notes and it's like having several spells in one.

Fireball is nice in core so you do lose 1 option for empower but not much else. And at your level you'd have to do quickened empowered fireball or something else to get it to 7th-9th level for it to be worth your time anyway. Same with other damage.

I wouldn't get extend either way. In core I might get (greater) spell penetration or (greater) spell focus first. Or a crafting feat is the best if you have a party, down time and don't already have one. Or craft staff for many more spells to choose from is nice. Fill it with mostly 8th-9th level spells. I've never seen a staff run out so don't worry too much about the cost.

[Snowbluff]

Scorching Ray makes a nice option. It's weak against every defense imaginable, but the above average single target damage for it's level makes it a great 4th level slot when empowered. At level 8, it deals 6d6x2 versus 8d6 for a fireball. At 12 its 6d6x3, versus 10d6 fireball.

It's 2nd level, which means you can use a Rod Of Empower I on it. Probably the best way to go.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Again, core only spells and evocation is banned. I do love empowered scorching ray (....with it energy sub'd to "not fire"), but it won't help in my case. In retrospect, I wish I had banned necro instead of evocation. I self-ban a hefty chunk of the necro school just because it's too evil or undead-raising or whatever to fit my character. Oh well.

Spell Pen feats are an option. I don't cast a lot of offensive spells that allow SR, though. But I guess that doesn't have to remain true.

Crafting feats are useless. The reason I just jumped from level 17 to 19 is because the DM only awards xp when we take a few days or more off for down time, and this has been the first time we've done so since i joined the group a year and a half ago... On a related note, I do not expect to level up again before the campaign ends. Some PCs reached lvl 20, and DM said he's ending the game before anyone hits epic.

What would be a good monster to spam-summon? If I do the empower on d4+1 of them, I'll get at most 2 extra. So if I wanted something from SM 5, I'd need to use a 9th level slot for (1d4+1) x1.5 of them. Or I could cast SM 7 twice w/o the empower and the 2nd casting would guarantee to give me at least 2 more, the same empower offers. So aside from saving combat time...I'm not sure empower is worth using on summon spells....

[Story]

I think the Evocation vs Necromancy thing depends on the levels you're playing at. Necromancy has some really good low level spells (False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement), while all of the good Evocation spells are high level (Contigency is basically it in Core).

[Snowbluff]

I think the Evocation vs Necromancy thing depends on the levels you're playing at. Necromancy has some really good low level spells (False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement), while all of the good Evocation spells are high level (Contigency is basically it in Core).
Force Cage.

[Story]

I'm not sure it's really a staple because of the expensive material component, but it is pretty good.

[Snowbluff]

There a few other out of core I really missed when I banned them. Thunderlance is pretty cool.

[ericgrau]

My last wizard focused on necromancy and evocation. So empower was a natural choice for both schools. Between spells like empowered ray of enfeeblement (solo foe debilitated w/ no save) and fireball (groups), it worked out really well. At higher level there are spells like wall of force and empowered enervation. Not too many options but the ones you do get are so supreme in core it's hard to pass up either school. You only get 2-3 spells before most of the fight is decided anyway. May as replace 2 good spells with 2 great spells, even if it costs you a dozen so-so spells. If you have a party cleric then abjuration is a good option to ban, because he has all the good abjurations anyway. For illusion I was surprised that the only spells I use are invisibility and greater invisibility. So it can be banned with only a little bit of pain. The rest are nice, but not essential. I know it has a lot of popular defensive spells, but they aren't worth the round vs going on the offensive, and it has a lot of utility but it's pretty weak utility. You can do a lot... just not very well. Might as well rely on your 6 other schools for versatility instead. Another banning trick is that like evocation & necromancy you only need a few transmutations, and unlike evocation and necromancy they aren't very stackable/spammable. So if you have 2 arcane casters only one needs to have transmutation.

Just throwing out some options. Situations vary, but maybe next time you'll look at your caster's theme and your party makeup and say, wait a second, I don't need X.

As for what to summon... figuring that out is a lot of work. You basically have to go through the monster manual and SRD and read a lot. I gave a few examples from some quick browsing, but you're going to have to do the rest of the work yourself. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more like what I found.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Force Cage.
The spell you are looking for, likely, is called Contingency, practically the only reason for the college's existence.

Fortunately, There's a Spell For That (Greater Shadow Evocation).

[Snowbluff]

The spell you are looking for, likely, is called Contingency, practically the only reason for the college's existence.
Yeah...

Fortunately, There's a Spell For That (Greater Shadow Evocation).
I don't like putting save on my spells. What if the % that is missing the part that is keeping the guy in? How do you even make a Forcecage out of Shadow Plane material?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I do, in fact, use GSE for Contingency. You can choose to fail a save anytime you want to, so it works just fine. I mostly miss Evocation for Wall of Force, Wind Wall, Prismatic Spray, Resilient Sphere....things like that. Greater Shadow Evocation just doesn't cut it, due to a save automatically making it not work at all (and objects always disbelieve).

I was hoping someone already knew a good core summon to have a horde of. Bone Devil doesn't work, it's SM 7, so I could use SM 9 for d4 +1, but I can't also empower it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

So, for my other feat, which is from being level 18 and can be anything...

What about Quicken Spell-like Ability for my Warding? I could only use it with the ROYGB spectrum, not Indigo or Violet (because they're higher than 6th spell level), but the DM already made the last two their own separate warding to make and thus I try to avoid using them over a double warding when feasible anyway. I'm pretty sure I can select Quicken SLA for Warding and not individual veil colors, since in the book Warding is listed as Sp, while as the Veils have no type descriptor at all.

[Snowbluff]

So, for my other feat, which is from being level 18 and can be anything...

What about Quicken Spell-like Ability for my Warding? I could only use it with the ROYGB spectrum, not Indigo or Violet (because they're higher than 6th spell level), but the DM already made the last two their own separate warding to make and thus I try to avoid using them over a double warding when feasible anyway. I'm pretty sure I can select Quicken SLA for Warding and not individual veil colors, since in the book Warding is listed as Sp, while as the Veils have no type descriptor at all.

Can't you already put them up as an immediate action? That means you can already cast them as a swift action.

Is that how Quicken SLA works? I want to know because Eldritch Blast's level changes based on the Invocations you sue with it. :smalltongue:

[StreamOfTheSky]

The DM allowed me to be an IotSFV, but nerfed the class down a bit by removing the Reactive Warding class feature and not allowing double warding w/ the last 2 colors. It's pretty annoying, since my whole goal was to play a spellcasting "defender" and mitigate damage to the party.

EDIT: Of course, that means he might reject letting me take Quicken SLA, too. I've sent him the question, will see how he responds.

EDIT^2: Indeed, he has rejected allowing me to take Quicken SLA on it. :smallfrown:

[ericgrau]

I was hoping someone already knew a good core summon to have a horde of. Bone Devil doesn't work, it's SM 7, so I could use SM 9 for d4 +1, but I can't also empower it.
That's right, I slipped up there. Oops.
Let's see, on SM 5 I found... Shadow Mastiffs, unperceivable scouts that aren't defeated by spot nor true seeing. That was it. And for scouting 1 isn't that much worse than 5. Druids have creatures with a lot more special abilities like unicorns. You could spam dire weasel spam for mass con drain but only if your foe dumped AC. Assuming SM 2-4 are similar to SM 5 it probably isn't worth it to empower core summons. I suppose druids get all the good summons.

If you want to mitigate damage to the party the best spells to do it are the same as the best spells in general: battlefield control. You may not have wall of force but you have wall of iron, reverse gravity, maze, prismatic wall (kind of small though) and some others.

[Story]

My last wizard focused on necromancy and evocation. So empower was a natural choice for both schools. Between spells like empowered ray of enfeeblement (solo foe debilitated w/ no save) and fireball (groups), it worked out really well. At higher level there are spells like wall of force and empowered enervation. Not too many options but the ones you do get are so supreme in core it's hard to pass up either school. You only get 2-3 spells before most of the fight is decided anyway. May as replace 2 good spells with 2 great spells, even if it costs you a dozen so-so spells. If you have a party cleric then abjuration is a good option to ban, because he has all the good abjurations anyway. For illusion I was surprised that the only spells I use are invisibility and greater invisibility. So it can be banned with only a little bit of pain. The rest are nice, but not essential. I know it has a lot of popular defensive spells, but they aren't worth the round vs going on the offensive, and it has a lot of utility but it's pretty weak utility. You can do a lot... just not very well. Might as well rely on your 6 other schools for versatility instead. Another banning trick is that like evocation & necromancy you only need a few transmutations, and unlike evocation and necromancy they aren't very stackable/spammable. So if you have 2 arcane casters only one needs to have transmutation.

Just throwing out some options. Situations vary, but maybe next time you'll look at your caster's theme and your party makeup and say, wait a second, I don't need X.

Banning Transmutation means giving up the all important Nerveskitter.

Also, Silent Image is pretty useful, especially for a level 1 spell.

[ericgrau]

In core only you don't get nerveskitter, and in low/moderate optimization groups it may be seen as cheesy. Or in very high optimization there might be bigger considerations. At high levels or with custom skill bonus item tricks (when allowed at high optimization) you can UMD a wand. Many people wand it even when they have transmutation. Silent image is quite useful, but many people never use any images in their entire career. There are times when my suggestions work and times when they don't; just providing alternate options and the rest depends on the specifics of his next caster. Heck with enough time to build your slave army, enchantment is great too. It all depends.

[Jasryn1]

:smallconfused:Please give me a list of ALL spells that can be empowered, beginning with the Core Rules in the Player's Handbook, and including all the others, including Spell Compendium and Dragonlance Campaign Setting.I am running a sorcerer, level 10. I have the following: Cantrips: Detect Magic, Light, Presdigitation, Flare, Mage Hand, Ray of Frost, Ghost Sound, Mending, Read Magic; Level 1: Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Obscuring Mist, Mage Armor and Protection from Evil (Celestial Sorcerer Heritage Feat); Level 2: Gust of Wind, Web, Levitate, Protection from Arrows; Level 3: Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly; Level 4: Globe of Invulnerability Lesser, Polymorph; Level 5: Teleport.

I figure, that Ray of Frost, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Gust of Wind, Dispel Magic, and Fireball can all be empowered due to variable numbers (even Gust of Wind causes some damage to tiny and fine creatures).

I am HOPING that Mage Armor and Teleport can also be empowered, Mage Armor up to +6 AC, and Teleport (to transport an additional person or at least increase the distance.)

My last DM allowed me to trade distance in order to transport additional persons, in other words, I could teleport four people including myself a distance of 100 miles instead of just 3 persons 1000 miles.

[tyckspoon]

:smallconfused:[COLOR="#40E0D0"]Please give me a list of ALL spells that can be empowered, beginning with the Core Rules in the Player's Handbook, and including all the others, including Spell Compendium and Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

..yeeeeahh do your own homework >.> (although if you're lucky somebody else has already done this, uploaded the results somewhere, and will provide the link it a couple of posts.)

In short, you can Empower a spell if the *effect* (usually synonymous with the end result) of the spell involves a random roll. You cannot empower Mage Armor; there is no random roll involved. You cannot empower Dispel Magic or Reincarnate, at least not usefully - the random roll is not part of the actual effect of the spell (an Empowered Dispel still just gives you either 'the effect is dispelled' or 'the effect is not dispelled' - the Dispel check itself is not, to the best of how I can parse this particularly hairsplitting part of the rules, actually part of the effect of the spell.) You *can* Empower an Awaken spell, because part of the effect of that spell is 'Awakened Animal gains 3d6 Intelligence' - that's a random result of the spell. You can't Empower Teleport to any useful end, although if you happen to roll a Mishap you *can* cause more damage to yourself when you fail your teleport.

[Jasryn1]

Ah, that's cute! (Increase the damage in case of mishap! I like that!):smallannoyed:

Actually, what about empowering the following: Ray of Frost, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Gust of Wind, and Fireball? I presume all of these CAN be empowered?

I was searching (Google) for an actual LIST of the spells that can be empowered, instead of going through every last damn spell in every last book of 3.5!!!! (which I just happen to have on the shelf.) SOMEBODY out there MUST have prepared just such a list???:smallmad:




..yeeeeahh do your own homework >.> (although if you're lucky somebody else has already done this, uploaded the results somewhere, and will provide the link it a couple of posts.)

In short, you can Empower a spell if the *effect* (usually synonymous with the end result) of the spell involves a random roll. You cannot empower Mage Armor; there is no random roll involved. You cannot empower Dispel Magic or Reincarnate, at least not usefully - the random roll is not part of the actual effect of the spell (an Empowered Dispel still just gives you either 'the effect is dispelled' or 'the effect is not dispelled' - the Dispel check itself is not, to the best of how I can parse this particularly hairsplitting part of the rules, actually part of the effect of the spell.) You *can* Empower an Awaken spell, because part of the effect of that spell is 'Awakened Animal gains 3d6 Intelligence' - that's a random result of the spell. You can't Empower Teleport to any useful end, although if you happen to roll a Mishap you *can* cause more damage to yourself when you fail your teleport.

[Jasryn1]

Oh, and yeah: I was HOPING that Mage Armor could be boosted. It only makes logical sense, as in the game Star Trek, you can boost the shields by simply adding more power to the shield generators! (I still recall my DM yelling at us: "Come on, people! You're Starfleet officers! I gave you a galaxy class starship to work with! Solve the problem!")

Granted, this isn't Star Trek, but you get the parallel. Mage Armor SHOULD be able to be boosted!:smallannoyed:



Ah, that's cute! (Increase the damage in case of mishap! I like that!):smallannoyed:

Actually, what about empowering the following: Ray of Frost, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Gust of Wind, and Fireball? I presume all of these CAN be empowered?

I was searching (Google) for an actual LIST of the spells that can be empowered, instead of going through every last damn spell in every last book of 3.5!!!! (which I just happen to have on the shelf.) SOMEBODY out there MUST have prepared just such a list???:smallmad:

[Ellowryn]

As a support wizard, evocation and enchantment are generally considered the schools you ban especially if you have access to PhB2 and can take abjurant jaunt. Even without that book they are still good to ban because those schools are full of save vs spells involving mind-affecting abilities and damage. I recommend checking out TheLogicNinja's guide to being Batman as you seem to be in that direction and it has a full list of good spells, and which spells are good with empower.

And any spell that has a numeric effect can be empowered, so no mage armor but Ray of Frost, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Gust of Wind, and Fireball can be.

[nedz]

Mage Armour canot be Empowered because it has no variable, numeric effects.

Empower Spell [Metamagic]
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

There is Greater Mage Armour though (Spell Compendium, p136). This is a level 3 spell which gives you +6 AC.

Also: Thread Necromancy. Forum rules state that you shouldn't restart a thread which has been dead for about 6 weeks.

[Jasryn1]

As a support wizard, evocation and enchantment are generally considered the schools you ban especially if you have access to PhB2 and can take abjurant jaunt. Even without that book they are still good to ban because those schools are full of save vs spells involving mind-affecting abilities and damage. I recommend checking out TheLogicNinja's guide to being Batman as you seem to be in that direction and it has a full list of good spells, and which spells are good with empower.

And any spell that has a numeric effect can be empowered, so no mage armor but Ray of Frost, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Gust of Wind, and Fireball can be.

Thanks.

Actually, I do believe our campaign began with our characters hiding in the woods behind the castle, while a handful of Dark Knights were searching for us....my mage was 12 years old, and Tom's Knight (then a squire) was 14. Both of us a measly level one, Vs. a Dark Knight paladin level 12 on horseback, with three level 7 Dark Knights on horseback.

If it weren't for the fact that a pair of unicorns boosted my character's first real spell, Color Spray, we never would've escaped....

[Jasryn1]

Mage Armour canot be Empowered because it has no variable, numeric effects.


There is Greater Mage Armour though (Spell Compendium, p136). This is a level 3 spell which gives you +6 AC.

Also: Thread Necromancy. Forum rules state that you shouldn't restart a thread which has been dead for about 6 weeks.

THANK YOU~!!!!

As soon as my character can level up, I will seriously consider that Greater Mage Armor spell!!!

(I'm also trying to decide on the Level 4...I was thinking of Wall of Good, or Storm Wall. Both are good possibilities, as there's a plague of undead running loose....)

[Jasryn1]

Mage Armour canot be Empowered because it has no variable, numeric effects.


There is Greater Mage Armour though (Spell Compendium, p136). This is a level 3 spell which gives you +6 AC.

Also: Thread Necromancy. Forum rules state that you shouldn't restart a thread which has been dead for about 6 weeks.

Umm....Yeah, it's worse. Five foot radius from the center square, gives you 8 squares, PLUS the original, total of 9 squares in the blast zone.:smalleek:

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread necromancy is disfavored on this forum.