4v4 wizards duel

[Garan]

I was reading Complete Arcane the other day, and I cam across the guidelines for Spell duels. And then I started thinking, "What kinds of strategies would people use for these kinds of duels if they had a complete team?"
And so that is what I am looking for. Maybe if I get enough varieties of strategies, I'll roll those teams and pit them against one another. I don't think that they'd all have to be arcane spellcasters, I could see some Cleric spells being useful.

Some guidelines I'd like people to follow:
Please tell me what books would be needed for your build (I'd like to limit it to just PHB 1 and 2, and the Completes, but I don't mind others as long as you delineate that).
Optomization: I'm not a big fan of it, but if you want to use optimized builds please tell me that this is one.
Level: I'd like them all to be around level 10, please.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Mages simply have entirely too many strategies at their disposal to formulate a team that's a guaranteed winner.

Basically it'd work out to something akin to a game of M:TG within a game of D&D except without the random shuffling of your deck. Either you picked the right cards to beat the guy(s) on the other side or you didn't.

Personally, I favor a defensive strategy. I'd spam dispels as counter spells while using my swift action spells to actually affect the enemy who likely hasn't focused on swift and immediate action spells. Coupled with globe of invulnerability to protect from the low-end effects I should be able to get him to burn through his slots that can affect me pretty quick.

[SowZ]

I was reading Complete Arcane the other day, and I cam across the guidelines for Spell duels. And then I started thinking, "What kinds of strategies would people use for these kinds of duels if they had a complete team?"
And so that is what I am looking for. Maybe if I get enough varieties of strategies, I'll roll those teams and pit them against one another. I don't think that they'd all have to be arcane spellcasters, I could see some Cleric spells being useful.

Some guidelines I'd like people to follow:
Please tell me what books would be needed for your build (I'd like to limit it to just PHB 1 and 2, and the Completes, but I don't mind others as long as you delineate that).
Optomization: I'm not a big fan of it, but if you want to use optimized builds please tell me that this is one.
Level: I'd like them all to be around level 10, please.

Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium would be nice. Or is this gearless?

[Garan]

Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium would be nice. Or is this gearless?

Oops, forgot to include those. Yes, those are both allowed.

[TypoNinja]

Mages simply have entirely too many strategies at their disposal to formulate a team that's a guaranteed winner.

Basically it'd work out to something akin to a game of M:TG within a game of D&D except without the random shuffling of your deck. Either you picked the right cards to beat the guy(s) on the other side or you didn't.

Personally, I favor a defensive strategy. I'd spam dispels as counter spells while using my swift action spells to actually affect the enemy who likely hasn't focused on swift and immediate action spells. Coupled with globe of invulnerability to protect from the low-end effects I should be able to get him to burn through his slots that can affect me pretty quick.

Using Reactive Counterspell you can squeeze out 3* Dispel/counters in a round without even resorting to Arcane Fusion and Celerity. Could be the basis for a decent defensive caster for the team.

*quickened, readied, and reactive.

[_flint_]

This thread has peaked my interest. I'll be back in a few with a fun build

[Snowbluff]

Using Reactive Counterspell you can squeeze out 3* Dispel/counters in a round without even resorting to Arcane Fusion and Celerity. Could be the basis for a decent defensive caster for the team.

*quickened, readied, and reactive.

A Master Abjurer with Empower Spell and Planar Touchstone (Inquisition Domain for +4 to dispel) could so a lot of good with his counterspells.

[_flint_]

This is the build of all four members. Each of them casts a persisted shapechange the night before the duel. They win initiative with nerveskitter, imp. init, the hummingbird(also under shapechange, btw), and a high dex form. Hit them with a reach, chained baleful polymorph to end the fight

STR:8
DEX:8
CON:16
INT:18
WIS:14
CHA:8
CLASS:Wizard 5/incantatrix 4/sacred exorcist 1/incantatrix 6/fatespinner 4
RACE:Human
FAMILIAR:Hummingbird, ring of spellcraft +5(78 ranks of spellcraft)
PROHIBITED SCHOOLS:evocation
FEATS:scribe scroll(wizard 1), iron will(otyugh hole), extend spell(human), spell focus(transmutation)(HD1) item familiar(ring of spellcraft +5, HD 3), chain spell(incantatrix 1), greater spell focus(transmutation)(HD6), reach spell(incantatrix 4), improved initiative(time domain), divine metamagic(chain spell)(HD9), quicken spell(incantatrix 7), extra turning(HD12), persistant spell(incatatrix 10), extra turning(HD15), extra turning(HD18)
SKILLS:Concentration 5, knowledge(arcana) 10, knowledge(religion) 7, knowledge(the planes) 10, spellcraft 23(*26*), profession(gambler) 5
ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES:Domain granted power(time), transmutation domain wizard

Also, I put WAY too much work into a build that's pretty much just "cast one spell with some metamagic"

[Story]

A Master Abjurer with Empower Spell and Planar Touchstone (Inquisition Domain for +4 to dispel) could so a lot of good with his counterspells.

You do know that Empower and Maximize don't affect d20 roles like that, right?

Anyway, you can boost dispelling a lot more. Get Battlemagic Perception, Spellcaster's Bane, Dispelling Cords, Paragnostic Apostle etc.

[SowZ]

This is the build of all four members. Each of them casts a persisted shapechange the night before the duel. They win initiative with nerveskitter, imp. init, the hummingbird(also under shapechange, btw), and a high dex form. Hit them with a reach, chained baleful polymorph to end the fight

STR:8
DEX:8
CON:16
INT:18
WIS:14
CHA:8
CLASS:Wizard 5/incantatrix 4/sacred exorcist 1/incantatrix 6/fatespinner 4
RACE:Human
FAMILIAR:Hummingbird, ring of spellcraft +5(78 ranks of spellcraft)
PROHIBITED SCHOOLS:evocation
FEATS:scribe scroll(wizard 1), iron will(otyugh hole), extend spell(human), spell focus(transmutation)(HD1) item familiar(ring of spellcraft +5, HD 3), chain spell(incantatrix 1), greater spell focus(transmutation)(HD6), reach spell(incantatrix 4), improved initiative(time domain), divine metamagic(chain spell)(HD9), quicken spell(incantatrix 7), extra turning(HD12), persistant spell(incatatrix 10), extra turning(HD15), extra turning(HD18)
SKILLS:Concentration 5, knowledge(arcana) 10, knowledge(religion) 7, knowledge(the planes) 10, spellcraft 23(*26*), profession(gambler) 5
ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES:Domain granted power(time), transmutation domain wizard

Also, I put WAY too much work into a build that's pretty much just "cast one spell with some metamagic"

Your build doesn't work with the source materials allowed, though. For one, Dragon is out.

Oh, do you just have to take levels in spellcasting classes or do you actually have to win with spells?

[Garan]

This is the build of all four members. Each of them casts a persisted shapechange the night before the duel. They win initiative with nerveskitter, imp. init, the hummingbird(also under shapechange, btw), and a high dex form. Hit them with a reach, chained baleful polymorph to end the fight

STR:8
DEX:8
CON:16
INT:18
WIS:14
CHA:8
CLASS:Wizard 5/incantatrix 4/sacred exorcist 1/incantatrix 6/fatespinner 4
RACE:Human
FAMILIAR:Hummingbird, ring of spellcraft +5(78 ranks of spellcraft)
PROHIBITED SCHOOLS:evocation
FEATS:scribe scroll(wizard 1), iron will(otyugh hole), extend spell(human), spell focus(transmutation)(HD1) item familiar(ring of spellcraft +5, HD 3), chain spell(incantatrix 1), greater spell focus(transmutation)(HD6), reach spell(incantatrix 4), improved initiative(time domain), divine metamagic(chain spell)(HD9), quicken spell(incantatrix 7), extra turning(HD12), persistant spell(incatatrix 10), extra turning(HD15), extra turning(HD18)
SKILLS:Concentration 5, knowledge(arcana) 10, knowledge(religion) 7, knowledge(the planes) 10, spellcraft 23(*26*), profession(gambler) 5
ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES:Domain granted power(time), transmutation domain wizard

Also, I put WAY too much work into a build that's pretty much just "cast one spell with some metamagic"

Interesting, but I was looking for a more limited amount of books required. Also, I would rule that a persistent shapechange is not allowed as it is cast prior to the duel.

[Randomguy]

This is the build of all four members. Each of them casts a persisted shapechange the night before the duel. They win initiative with nerveskitter, imp. init, the hummingbird(also under shapechange, btw), and a high dex form. Hit them with a reach, chained baleful polymorph to end the fight

STR:8
DEX:8
CON:16
INT:18
WIS:14
CHA:8
CLASS:Wizard 5/incantatrix 4/sacred exorcist 1/incantatrix 6/fatespinner 4
RACE:Human
FAMILIAR:Hummingbird, ring of spellcraft +5(78 ranks of spellcraft)
PROHIBITED SCHOOLS:evocation
FEATS:scribe scroll(wizard 1), iron will(otyugh hole), extend spell(human), spell focus(transmutation)(HD1) item familiar(ring of spellcraft +5, HD 3), chain spell(incantatrix 1), greater spell focus(transmutation)(HD6), reach spell(incantatrix 4), improved initiative(time domain), divine metamagic(chain spell)(HD9), quicken spell(incantatrix 7), extra turning(HD12), persistant spell(incatatrix 10), extra turning(HD15), extra turning(HD18)
SKILLS:Concentration 5, knowledge(arcana) 10, knowledge(religion) 7, knowledge(the planes) 10, spellcraft 23(*26*), profession(gambler) 5
ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURES:Domain granted power(time), transmutation domain wizard

Also, I put WAY too much work into a build that's pretty much just "cast one spell with some metamagic"

1. It's supposed to be around level 10.
2. Dive metamagic only works on divine spells.
3. Incantatrix isn't in the allowed books.

Anyway, if pre-buffs are allowed then at that level all enemy wizards would have a moment of persience going for occasions such as this. They'd also probably have superior resistance. That's +32 to fortitude if necessary, without counting constitution modifier, so you probably wouldn't be able to actually affect them.
And if any of them are changelings then they can just change back to their normal form as a standard action, and even if all wizards failed the fortitude save then the team could still be brought back into action by a silent still Greater Dispel Magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your build doesn't work with the source materials allowed, though. For one, Dragon is out.

Oh, do you just have to take levels in spellcasting classes or do you actually have to win with spells?

I would presume we're discussing a formal mage's duel as described in Complete Arcane. In which case, you have to win via spells since employing martial ability is typically frowned upon or outright forbidden. Summoned monsters and pimped out familiars would probably be okay.

[SowZ]

I would presume we're discussing a formal mage's duel as described in Complete Arcane. In which case, you have to win via spells since employing martial ability is typically frowned upon or outright forbidden. Summoned monsters and pimped out familiars would probably be okay.

The simplest build to win would be to be focus 'all' available spell/build resources on initiative and defense in case you lose intiative, have all 4 mages be diplomancers, and make hurried diplomacy checks on all 4 mages. Then tell them to lose the battle and beat them with whatever you choose. Question is, since this is a formal wizards duel, do they count as hostile? If so, you will have to pull some real cheese to get such a crazy diplomacy at level 10. But it is possible.

[TypoNinja]

The simplest build to win would be to be focus 'all' available spell/build resources on initiative and defense in case you lose intiative, have all 4 mages be diplomancers, and make hurried diplomacy checks on all 4 mages. Then tell them to lose the battle and beat them with whatever you choose. Question is, since this is a formal wizards duel, do they count as hostile? If so, you will have to pull some real cheese to get such a crazy diplomacy at level 10. But it is possible.

Still doesn't work. Make them all the way up to "helpful" with a DC 50, and you only have some really good friends.

I have really good friends, they don't let me win at any game we play together.

[SowZ]

Still doesn't work. Make them all the way up to "helpful" with a DC 50, and you only have some really good friends.

I have really good friends, they don't let me win at any game we play together.

If a mage duel is considered a normal social situation, a check of 90 would make them fanatical.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If a mage duel is considered a normal social situation, a check of 90 would make them fanatical.

Only if they're still vulnerable to mind affecting effects, which the fanatic condition is.

Part of the standard rules for a mage's duel is that both sides are given a few rounds to buff up before they're allowed to attack one another. Winning the initiative is still important, but it's not an autowin.

Some duels are also designated non-lethal, making a number of the most dangerous high-op tactics unavailable.

[Garan]

By the way, choose either lethal or non-lethal, but say in your build which it is for.

[SowZ]

Only if they're still vulnerable to mind affecting effects, which the fanatic condition is.

Part of the standard rules for a mage's duel is that both sides are given a few rounds to buff up before they're allowed to attack one another. Winning the initiative is still important, but it's not an autowin.

Some duels are also designated non-lethal, making a number of the most dangerous high-op tactics unavailable.

Sure, but the thread starter has stated he isn't allowing buffing rounds.

If I entered this, I am not sure I will, I think a fun build would be a dominate person with an unsaveable DC. If I dominate a couple of them, they know their allies plans better than I can hope to guess. Doesn't work nearly as well if buffing is allowed, though.

[Acanous]

Buy a Ring of Spell Battle and a Ring of Counterspelling.

After that, just ensure you don't blow YOUR immediate action on Celerity, but can act on the surprise round. Let the other team pull go-first shennanigans, and interrupt them by retargetting their spells however you deem fit.


It's not PERFECT, but given the usual tactics it'll buy you at least one win.

[Toy Killer]

I would think this would quickly become a game of focus fire on a particular target in unison rather then a straight, line up and fire, kind of ordeal.

I mean, seriously, losing ONE teammate would drastically reduce the remaining rounds for the team. Even save-or-sucks would be immediately killer in this duel for your team.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sure, but the thread starter has stated he isn't allowing buffing rounds.

If I entered this, I am not sure I will, I think a fun build would be a dominate person with an unsaveable DC. If I dominate a couple of them, they know their allies plans better than I can hope to guess. Doesn't work nearly as well if buffing is allowed, though.

The OP made no such statement.

He did allude to the rule in the book that you can't come to the dueling grounds pre-buffed, but whether or not the duel itself will have buffing rounds wasn't stated.

I wouldn't presume they are but they're called out in the book as a common practice for these things so the possibility should be considered.

[TypoNinja]

I would think this would quickly become a game of focus fire on a particular target in unison rather then a straight, line up and fire, kind of ordeal.

I mean, seriously, losing ONE teammate would drastically reduce the remaining rounds for the team. Even save-or-sucks would be immediately killer in this duel for your team.

Its a 10th level wizard fight, I expect it to be abrupt. Hell average HP is going to be low enough that simple direct damage nuking could be effective.

[Snowbluff]

You do know that Empower and Maximize don't affect d20 roles like that, right?

Why not? The check is a variable effect of the spell? :smallamused:


Anyway, you can boost dispelling a lot more. Get Battlemagic Perception, Spellcaster's Bane, Dispelling Cords, Paragnostic Apostle etc.

Maybe, Maybe, no, yes.

[Story]

Why not? The check is a variable effect of the spell?.

Actually it's not. Anyway, I don't feel like repeating the argument now, so go look up another one online.

[SowZ]

The OP made no such statement.

He did allude to the rule in the book that you can't come to the dueling grounds pre-buffed, but whether or not the duel itself will have buffing rounds wasn't stated.

I wouldn't presume they are but they're called out in the book as a common practice for these things so the possibility should be considered.

Not directly, I suppose, but he said
I would rule that a persistent shapechange is not allowed as it is cast prior to the duel. directly followed by a post that seemed to me arguing why pre buffing would be redundant since all wizards would have many of the same buffs.