Sneaks wanted! Unseen Seer help

[LanSlyde]

So, some days ago I posted asking for help finishing out a feat selection for a character I have affectionately dubbed 'The Dagger'. I return in an attempt to refine her counterpart 'The Cloak'.

The far the build is: Rogue4/Beguiler1/Unseen Seer10/Thug SA Fighter5

This nets me 15BAB, 9d6 SA, and 5thlvl spells.

I am unsure where to go from here. I mean, I could pick up to levels of Ranger before diving into US for 16BAB, or I would focus more on beguiler casting and neglect my Attack Bonus. The premise behind this character is where 'The Dagger' is the teammate that actually does most of the killing while 'The Cloak' is the one that assists her from the shadows, covering her via spells and occasionally sniping weakened targets with his Great Crossbow.

Any thoughts? What would the playground suggest for this type of duo?

[JaronK]

Well, if nothing else the Rokugan Ninja could help. Full BAB, sneak attack like a Rogue, and level 4 gives Con bonus * 5 to speed, which is fun.

JaronK

[sleepyphoenixx]

You're losing a lot of caster levels. High BAB and SA are not worth sacrificing CL for if you want a supporter (or any decent spellcaster tbh).

Do you need those rogue levels? Otherwise you might be better of going full beguiler to maximize your casting.
I played something similar recently in an all thieves campaign and ended up as a
Rogue 2/Beguiler 3/Prestige Bard 1/Unseen Seer 5/Swiftblade 3 which worked well and was a lot of fun to play.

[LanSlyde]

Well, if nothing else the Rokugan Ninja could help. Full BAB, sneak attack like a Rogue, and level 4 gives Con bonus * 5 to speed, which is fun.

JaronK

Took a look at the ninja, its nice, but I try to stay away from 3rd party material I don't actually own.


You're losing a lot of caster levels. High BAB and SA are not worth sacrificing CL for if you want a supporter (or any decent spellcaster tbh).

Do you need those rogue levels? Otherwise you might be better of going full beguiler to maximize your casting.
I played something similar recently in an all thieves campaign and ended up as a
Rogue 2/Beguiler 3/Prestige Bard 1/Unseen Seer 5/Swiftblade 3 which worked well and was a lot of fun to play.

I'm know the caster level loss hurts, but currently I'm trying to either find a way to grab one more point of BAB without sacrificing 5th level spells, or gain higher level spells without losing too many points of BAB. If its not doable I'll rework the character.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Rogue3/Beguiler2/Unseen Seer 5/Swiftblade10 gets you BAB 16 and 7th level spells.

[A_S]

Human Paragon 1 / Beguiler 2 / Human Paragon +2 / Thug SA Fighter 1 / Unseen Seer 8 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Spellsword 1

16 BAB, 9th level spells.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Human Paragon 1 / Beguiler 2 / Human Paragon +2 / Thug SA Fighter 1 / Unseen Seer 8 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Spellsword 1

16 BAB, 9th level spells.

You'd have to take standard Fighter, Thug only gets light armor proficiency (Spellsword needs heavy)

[A_S]

Good call.

[LanSlyde]

Human Paragon 1 / Beguiler 2 / Human Paragon +2 / Thug SA Fighter 1 / Unseen Seer 8 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Spellsword 1

16 BAB, 9th level spells.

hmm, switching out Thug SA Fighter for regular fighter it works, but with 3d6SA. Not terribly good, but 9th level spells more than make up for it. I like it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

hmm, switching out Thug SA Fighter for regular fighter it works, but with 4d6SA. Not terribly good, but 9th level spells more than make up for it. I like it.

you can always take Hidden Talent(Minor Creation) and Master of Poisons to beef up your crossbow attacks :smallsmile:
Add Hand Crossbow Focus for free action reloading and a +1 to attack.

[A_S]

hmm, switching out Thug SA Fighter for regular fighter it works, but with 3d6SA. Not terribly good, but 9th level spells more than make up for it. I like it.

I might have misunderstood, but I think I understand from this that you're choosing between Fighter with no ACF's and one with both SA and Thug. sleepyphoenixx correctly pointed out that you can't take Thug, due to the armor proficiency requirement of Spellsword, but you can still take SA Fighter (and, indeed, you kind of have to, since otherwise you have no precision damage for Unseen Seer to advance, so that feature gets ignored).

As for low SA damage, I wouldn't worry about it. Add Hunter's Eye and Craven, and you'll be doing 11d6+20 at level 20, and you can pick up big portions of that (Craven and Hunter's Eye) as early in the build as level 8. Nothing to sneeze at.

[Lortharian Duin]

I made my "Red Cloak" as NPC:
Swashbuckler 3/ Spellthief 2(Trickster ACF)/ Unseen Seer 8/ Abjurant Champion 4/ X

As you wanna have higher BAB and keep caster levels on reasonable amount, plus skill points I thought, for my Red Cloak, that Swashbuckler would make a cool entry 'cos of INT synergy and skill list. Backed up by Able Learner.
X - Swiftblade, remaining 2 levels of Unseen Seer,... actually anything that gives you some caster levels...

Trickster ACF (Dragon #353) gives you Bards way of casting and Bard's spells on top of what you as Spellthief get by default.

Feats that would be a must in first case:
Able Learner, Master Spellthief, Practiced Spellcaster (Trickster Spellthief), Combat Casting (as prerequisite for Abjurant Champion)
perhaps also Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) feat to grab spells from some domain you'd find useful if you steal a spell you don't plan to use. Because of lack in spellthief levels you can't store high level spells IIRC.

Make sure you grab Hunter's Eye as first spell that Unseen Seer gives you so you'd have 1d6 sneak attack per 3 caster levels.
At level 17 this nets you 14 BAB, around 20 caster level in Divination school; a sum of 10d6 SA die if used with Hunter's Eye spell, 4d6 without that spell.

I hope this will be of any help to you.

EDIT: My grammar is poor and I should feel illiterate.