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View Full Version : [GM advice wanted] The challenge of selling an extremely valuable gem



Edge of Dreams
2013-01-17, 03:36 AM
Berengar, Toseto, Archarian, and Doc, STAY OUT!

Pretty often in games like D&D players will find gems as loot. Generally, if the values are not particularly large, I just make my players roll a couple of skill checks to find a suitable merchant and haggle over price.

However, in my current Runequest game, the players have found a black gem the size of a man's fist. It is nicely cut (expensive jewelry quality), and I estimate its weight at around 500 carats (comparable to some of the largest cut diamonds in the world).

I have not specified exactly what mineral or type of gem it is other than the color. Obviously, if it is a more common or less desirable gem than diamond, it will not be as valuable, but this is still going to be one of the largest single pieces of treasure I've ever handed out. I want the players to get a good payout from selling it, of course, but I don't think it should be easy.

So! How would someone go about selling such a valuable find in a medieval or early renaissance society? What kinds of threats or challenges might the players expect? They are in pretty much the largest city in the setting (population nearly 1 million), so a rich enough buyer should be around somewhere, but that also means there will be plenty of people looking to swindle the players or steal the gem.

How would you, as a GM, handle this kind of scenario?

TL;DR: How to GM players trying to sell something like the Hope Diamond in the fantasy equivalent of early renaissance London or Paris?

Ashtagon
2013-01-17, 03:41 AM
At the upper end of material worth, formulas go out the window. A gem like this is worth what the market will bear. The formulas are a guideline to its "value" in a "vacuum" (well, in a sufficiently wealthy society). But absent an arbitrarily rich buyer, the effective value diminishes.

Look at what the richest NPC in the setting can pay. That's the theoretical upper limit. Now look at what the next richest guy whom the first NPC knows cold pay. The richest guy knows he needs to pay more than guy #2, but not significantly more.

Of course, for gems, they could choose to sell it to a gemcutter as "raw materials", in which case they would get the uncut value of the gem (1/3 its theoretical value, less a bulk goods discount).

Concrete
2013-01-17, 05:53 AM
They could choose not to sell it, but instead create a contest around it. Imagine, thousands of greedy gladiators and sellswords, congregating to fight for this huge gem, paying entrance fees, needing lodging, food, entertainment.
And with all the people who come to watch, needing the same.
Striking the right deals with the rght people (tavern owners, weaponsmiths, arena owners knick-nack sellers) they could get out of it with ten times the gems value! Or if they enter their own fighter into it, they could end up with all the scratch, and the gem.
Or nothing at all, as people would try to steal it, sabotage their plan, or if their marketing sucks.
You could make an adventure out of it!

Bluecap
2013-01-17, 06:18 AM
So! How would someone go about selling such a valuable find in a medieval or early renaissance society? What kinds of threats or challenges might the players expect? They are in pretty much the largest city in the setting (population nearly 1 million), so a rich enough buyer should be around somewhere, but that also means there will be plenty of people looking to swindle the players or steal the gem.

Unless they have contacts already, they'll need some sort of broker who's already know to the rich and powerful. The broker'll know who would be interested in the gem and would be able to set up a deal.

Adventure-wise, they'd need to actually find such a broker (they don't advertise) and possibly do something to obtain their trust.

Maybe they also have to get (or forge) a certificate of authentication for the gem before the nobles will consider buying.

Possibly the gem is successfully identified as a lost treasure of the dwarf kingdom and the dwarves would like it back. They offer payment in face-stabbings.

randomhero00
2013-01-17, 08:31 AM
Usually for things like that, something that has such a high, but unknown value (like someone mentioned above, if you were trying to sell the Hope diamond) you put it up for auction. This is because no one person would usually be willing to make a back room deal for it...because they'd have no idea if they were getting stiffed.

So they'd need to find a very very upscale auction house and hope for the best. In other words, find an appropriate value range, 10 being average, and roll a D20. Now say, if they get clever in advertising it, then you could give them a bonus to the roll. +2 or whatever.

Auction houses will charge between 10-20%.

So say you want them to earn 1000gp at the lowest, and 10,000gp at the highest. You roll a 12, which would mean someone buys it for 6,500gp (or whatever you assign). Now take 10-20% off, and then the remainder is what the players make.

Also keep in mind, they will want to find several high class appraisers and pay them for a certificate of authenticity as well as an approximate price range of what it might be worth. They'd be staking their well earned reputations on it, so the price for such would be more than normal appraisal for such a high class item.

Sebastrd
2013-01-17, 10:03 AM
Are your players interested in doing a side-quest to sell the gem?

Hopeless
2013-01-17, 05:44 PM
If a wizard hadn't enlarged it with a permanency spell but they'd probably have already cast detect magic on it so unless a spell was used to make it look as non-magical as something else your players found with it...

Could even have an enemy shrink it to make them think someone else stole it sending them after the fingered catspaw and whilst they're gone he/she/it walks off with the gem before it returns to normal size... sorry thinking like my last couple of dms, one had us find a gold funeral barge and he had us sell it in a city at the heart of a desert making its ability to walk on water not very valuable but the stoneskin other magical ability probably means it won't be melted any time soon!

If they could sell it they would either need an intermediary which would halve to one tenth or even less how much they get for it or sell it directly and risk god knows how any attempted robberies even the government getting involved if its worth that much!

Have you been watching any Sherlock Holmes movies or tv series because they dealt with that kind of scenario in a couple of episodes/films...

One involved the group arrested and getting help of two guards one of whom stole the lot and left them to rot whilst the second tried to get him to change his mind and died froma heart attack brought on because of the other man's complete lack of humanity...

Another had it stolen and hidden in one of several plaster busts of napoleon, then there was one involving an ancient puzzle that revealed the hiding place of the lost crown of england but when found it wasn't recognised since it wasn't identified anywhere in any of the clues to find it.

A gem was stolen and fed to a goose which was given as a prize in a draw and the man who won it came to you know who to find out where the gem had come from.
That gem had a very nasty history mind you, although the one dealing with the black pearl of the borgias if I recall the name properly well I better stop there!:smallwink:

By the way good luck is it likely to be a vital part of a magical ritual by any chance?

Codyage
2013-01-18, 01:28 AM
Very interesting topic. I guess the first steps would be, conceal the gem from most of the people. Be able to get it to a safe location. After that, find out how much it is worth. Also hush money so they don't try to steal it themselves, or blab to much. The last thing is word of such a treasure getting out.

Maybe find some people to see if it has any special aspects. Along with them get some people who may be able to tell the history of the gem, to make sure it wasn't stolen or can be traced back to certain crimes, or royalty. See if it has importance to someone. That all ready is going to lead to a lot of buy offs so word doesn't get out.

Now this is where it gets tricky.

If the gem doesn't lead to a famous history. Such as being a king's treasure, or something famous to grant power. It comes down to finding people who would be interested in such a buy, and if the market for gems are in demand. If they are in a demand with little supply, they could make a killing by getting the gem cut, and controlling the market via inflation. Since they could have the majority control on such a gem depending on the rarity. But those chances are very slim.

If they want to leave it whole, finding a public buyer may be difficult depending on where they are. They could try and sell it locally, but transportation to a different place may yield higher results if it is a rich buyer. If the buy is public, you can bet your money that if it is getting shipped, people will be trying to steal the cargo left and right. Which means you have to pay for guards, you have to pay for the actual equipment to transport it etc.

This entire delivery mission can lead to it's very own campaign. But this still if it is a public buy.

If the gem DOES have a past, it could be so much more valuable. But they may be better off trying to sell it as if it doesn't have a history. Because if it does, they can't sell it publicly, or people may try and claim it is their own. Which could lead to many a lawsuit, saying they own right over that gem. If the owners of the gem can't get proof of ownership, it may not end well. So they may want to sell the famous gem privately.

If that is done, they need to keep information secure, and be able to transport it to the buyer personally, just to be safe, because a black market gem will have a lot of people after it. Possibly even more then a public gem.

Instead of selling the rare gem in private, they may wish to sell it someone else, for a much lower price. Because if someone else sells it, they don't have to deal with all that stuff, such as highwaymen, shipping costs, people to keep quiet. But in doing so, that can lead to it's own problems, such as a double cross, or maybe the police showing up to arrest you.

They could always donate to a museum and instead of wealth, exchange it for fame, as being the people who discovered a lost treasure.

Trying to sell such a gem WITHOUT raising some sort of suspicion has to go threw so much pain staking detail and paranoia. The slightest mistake can get everyone involved in jail or killed.

I may have missed a few details, but this is starting to sound like it's own campaign in itself. Any of the ideas of selling it above, will require a lot of money in itself. Just to pay for any shipment, bribes, authenticity. That is to get it done legally. Because I don't think you can just walk up to someone and say "Wanna buy the hope diamond? It is dirt cheap. :smallsmile:"

Gildedragon
2013-01-18, 02:12 AM
A way to 'sell' it is by the gem having been lost by a powerful noble house or mage be looking for it (means of legitimizing rule/claim to throne? focus for a powerful spell? a virtually unique and useless-to-all-but-select-few artifact?)
They'd pay your pc's quite well, likely in goods land and favors rather than gold. But that's worth it, and it allows your PCs to pick what reward they want.
And the intrigue that could arise from having this item people want the bounty for may be worth it.
It's like an escort the NPC quest taken to its extreme (the NPC, a rock in this case, is actually useless and relatively easy to lose).

yougi
2013-01-19, 10:16 AM
Are your players interested in doing a side-quest to sell the gem?

I believe this is the most important question to ask.

If they, I'd also support the auction house idea. If the gem is worth enough, then payment in coinage is impractical, payment in other gems is quite... weird, and payment in (depending on the buyer) lands, titles, slaves, or magical items would make more sense.

Crazyfailure13
2013-01-19, 05:55 PM
Don't know if anyone said this already, but the gem shouldn't lose it's value if broken into smaller piece, I believe, so why not just break it into 20 pieces and sell it off to different buyers.

If that doesn't work, go find a powerful wizard looking to make a few wishs.

Xuc Xac
2013-01-20, 03:23 AM
gem the size of a man's fist...around 500 carats


You realize that would float? It's lighter than a piece of cork that size. Either change It to the size of a man's thumb or add an extra zero to the weight.

Edge of Dreams
2013-01-20, 03:44 AM
You realize that would float? It's lighter than a piece of cork that size. Either change It to the size of a man's thumb or add an extra zero to the weight.

You may be right. I've been working from very rough estimates. I've had a very hard time finding information on the internet that clearly communicates both the size AND weight of famous large gems. There's plenty of references to the Cullinan I or "Great Star of Africa" being about 530 carats, for example, but I haven't been able to find its volume or a picture showing relative size.

Ashtagon
2013-01-20, 04:26 AM
Don't know if anyone said this already, but the gem shouldn't lose it's value if broken into smaller piece, I believe, so why not just break it into 20 pieces and sell it off to different buyers.

If that doesn't work, go find a powerful wizard looking to make a few wishs.

This'll be why the Kohinoor diamond was never broken up.

Principal reasons for breaking up a large gem is inability to find a buyer for the whole gem, and known flaws in the larger gem that can only be removed by breaking it up.

If the original gem is flawless, it can only lose value by being broken up.

Xuc Xac
2013-01-20, 06:40 AM
There's plenty of references to the Cullinan I or "Great Star of Africa" being about 530 carats, for example, but I haven't been able to find its volume or a picture showing relative size.

It's made of diamond. Unless the diamond is flawed to the point of being total garbage, it has a known density. There are 5 carats in a gram. A cubic cm of diamond is 3.5 grams. That's 17.5 carats/cc. Divide the carats by 17.5 to get the volume in cc. The GSoA would be about 30cc (a little over 3cm per side for a cube, but it isn't a cube so it might be a little longer).

Ghost49X
2013-01-20, 07:21 PM
Well first, you need to set what the maximum amount the richest person that could be interested in it, is willing to spend on it (even if it's lower than what it's worth, if no one has enough funds they won't get full value). They need to feel out the market in the hopes of finding a potential buyer. This would indirectly cause information to leak out to people who keep an ear for this sort of stuff (hush money doesn't guarantee anything) and this will attract criminals. Attempts to steal both the gem and the payment will be made until the exchange is made. They can also give it as a gift to an important person or an organization in exchange for political favours (or maybe magical favours)

Beleriphon
2013-01-21, 12:21 PM
As an aside here, the Cullinan I diamond is seen here in the end of the staff (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/King_George_VI.jpg) pointing away for George VI. Its really big at 530.4 carats, or 106.1 grams. So that is a massive diamond. That said, its still not as big as a man's fist. You'd need to cube the volume to some that big. The original stone was 3106.75 carats or 621.35 grams. That makes the thing's weight a little better than a pound of ground beef.

Also what kind of cut is it? Because the Cullinan I is a pear cut, most diamond rings are princess cut, but you can get square cuts and a bunch of other kinds as well. I assume that you're modelling this thing on the Arkenstone rather than a typical stone.

If it is Arkenstone-like then the value could be greater than 1/14 the value of everything in an entire dwarven kingdom. So bear that in mind.

Edge of Dreams
2013-01-21, 01:01 PM
Since I never specified the material, I'm probably going to end up with it being something much more common than diamond, so we're not talking Arkenstone levels of value. Take a look at the "American Golden Topaz" on this page: http://epicswag.net/10-biggest-jewels-of-the-world/ That gem is waaaaaay bigger than both the Cullinan I and the black gem I gave my players, but it's also topaz, which is a substantially less valued material.

The cut is probably something like a round brilliant cut like one would use on a diamond: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_(diamond_cut)

Beleriphon
2013-01-21, 02:08 PM
Since I never specified the material, I'm probably going to end up with it being something much more common than diamond, so we're not talking Arkenstone levels of value. Take a look at the "American Golden Topaz" on this page: http://epicswag.net/10-biggest-jewels-of-the-world/ That gem is waaaaaay bigger than both the Cullinan I and the black gem I gave my players, but it's also topaz, which is a substantially less valued material.

The cut is probably something like a round brilliant cut like one would use on a diamond: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_(diamond_cut)

My suggestion would be having it made of black garnet, which is a real type of gemstone. Garnet isn't hugely valuable, but its normally only found in relatively small sizes and some of the varieties (tsavorite for example) can be worth more than emerald.

Another option would be a tourmaline (http://www.minerals.net/gemstone/tourmaline_gemstone.aspx); these are commonly called schorl when black.

Deophaun
2013-01-21, 04:34 PM
That gem is waaaaaay bigger than both the Cullinan I and the black gem I gave my players, but it's also topaz, which is a substantially less valued material.
That depends. Is there a De Beers cartel in your world, too?

LibraryOgre
2013-01-21, 05:01 PM
Less popular option: If you can't find a buyer, find a gemcutter. Less money, but less time in prison.

Gildedragon
2013-01-24, 12:53 AM
If no one person has the money to pay for it, why not a dozen or a hundred.
Make it be known to all potentates and magnates that the gem will go on the block, and that to participate in its auctioning they must first pay.
The PC's actual proceeds come from the entrance fees.

Edge of Dreams
2013-01-24, 01:21 AM
I actually dealt with this in our most recent session, at last.

The players first tried to take it to the most reputable gem cutters and merchants in town. I random rolled for the chance of being swindled, with the result that both of the appraisers they showed it to offered them an amount of gold that seemed like a lot of money, but was actually way less than the true value.

Fortunately, the players succeed on their Insight skill checks to realize they were being low-balled, and walked away. At that point, I did some random rolling for whether rumors of the gem would get out, and determined that someone would try to rob them within no more than 2 days.

Their next plan was to take the gem to a well-known senator in the city whose life they had saved in a previous adventure (he had already paid them back in gold and secrets about city politics). I decided that he would be a bit more straight-forward with them. He offered to pay for guards for the gem and go through the process of auctioning it off himself, but warned the players that it would take a long time to do that and he would take a cut on top of what the auction house would take. His alternative offer was a lump sum of cash, still less than the true value of the gem, but at least double the best offer they'd had so far.

End result, the players took the immediate cash, at a value of perhaps 25 or 50% of what they could have gotten for it with more time, effort, and luck. The session ended with them heading home cash in hand. Next session will start with them getting mugged, and we'll see what happens.

Gavinfoxx
2013-01-24, 02:35 AM
Boy are they going to have to find THE MOST reputable auction house for high end items, and setting up a major auction with a bunch of nobles and stuff, and schmoozing with the rich people during this auction, and all the social and cultural encounters that have to do with setting up an auction at what is basically Christie's...

Tell your players, flat out, "Uh, in order to sell this and get the full value out of it, you are basically going to have to approach the equivalent of Christie's, and set up an auction for the most monied people in the land, for this... do you want to play that?"

Edit: Ahhh, I see you did something similar. Let the muggers have cut off wayyy more than they can chew, though; that's always fun. Guy with crazed eyes, hopped up on something, brandishing a knife, "GIMME THE GEM!!" hahaha