Epic Dragon 3.5 Requests

[Dark_Ansem]

I am using the monster advancer but apparently it does not account for Epic Dragons at all. or for any adjustment over hit dice.

That is why I ask the community to advance some dragons for me, I am getting very confused and ultimately I cannot do it :(

I need advancement for Shadow, Red, Gold and Time Dragon.
Time Dragon (Dragon 359 for the actual stats): advanced to level 144

Shadow, Gold and Red Dragon: Advanced to levels 50 and 55 (stats found in Draconomicon for their Great Wyrm level)

can someone help me? thanks in advance!

[TypoNinja]

I am using the monster advancer but apparently it does not account for Epic Dragons at all. or for any adjustment over hit dice.

That is why I ask the community to advance some dragons for me, I am getting very confused and ultimately I cannot do it :(

I need advancement for Shadow, Red, Gold and Time Dragon.
Time Dragon (Dragon 359 for the actual stats): advanced to level 144

Shadow, Gold and Red Dragon: Advanced to levels 50 and 55 (stats found in Draconomicon for their Great Wyrm level)

can someone help me? thanks in advance!

Advancing past Great Wyrm is pretty easy.

Benefits for HD as normal (HP, skill points, BAB, saves, ect).

Every three HD past Great Wyrm they get a virtual age category.

The bonuses gained from each age category are listed on the SRD Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm)

If it wasn't 6 am I wouldn't mind running one down for you, but as it is, I point you in the right direct and then go pass out. Nighty Night!

[Dark_Ansem]

well, not simple enough for me I fear :P

[rweird]

Why do you want a 144 HD Time Dragon? What sort of game would you be playing where you actually need stats for that?

[Dark_Ansem]

where he is an avatar of the God of time :)

[rweird]

where he is an avatar of the God of time :)

What do you need stats for that? Unless your playing a high-epic level game, or your players optimize like crazy, you won't need it. Unless killing this thing is the goal of the campaign, i don't think you'll need it.

[Dark_Ansem]

It might end up killing it as, like every god of time, it is dispassionate and does not lift a finger to help anyone. This might led to player actually fight it (not saying they can win, just that they want). and being the God of Time he already knows also the outcome, and is prepared.

the number 144 has a specific meaning towards time as well.

[rweird]

Okay. I have to go now, i'll try to make an example later.

[Dark_Ansem]

thanks :)
also the other 6 have a reason, but a more common one: fight in order to gain loot :)

[rweird]

Okay, the 55 HD Red Dragon [Stuff like this is just my comments]:
Great Wyrm +5 Red Dragon

{TABLE]Size/Type:|Colossal+ Dragon (fire)
Hit Dice:|55d12+825 (1183 hp)
Initiative:|+0
Speed:|40 ft (8 squares), fly 250ft(Clumsy)
Armor Class:|48 (-16 size,+0 dex, ++54 Natural), touch -6, flat-footed 48
Base Attack/Grapple:|+55/+97
Attack:|Bite +61 melee (8d6+22)
Full Attack:|Bite +61 melee (8d6+22) and 2 Claws +56 melee (4d8+11) and 2 Wings +56 melee (4d6+11) and Tail Slap +56 melee (4d8+33)
Space/Reach:|50ft/30ft
Special Attacks:|Breath Weapon, Spells, SLAs, Crush (8d6+33), Tail Sweep (50 ft, 4d6+33),
Special Qualities:|DR 25/Epic [Should be 15/epic by RAW, but that decreases from 20/magic great wyrm has], SR 42, Blindsense 60, Keen Senses, Spells, SLAs, Fast Healing 12,
Saves:|Fort +44, Ref +29, Will +39
Abilities:| Str 55, Dex 10, Con 41, Int 30, Wis 31, Cha 30
Skills:|Appraise +68, Bluff +68, Concentration +73, Diplomacy +68, Escape Artist +58, Intimidate +68, Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, Religion, The Planes, History) +68, Listen +68, Search +68, Spot +68, Sense Motive +68, Use Magic Device +68
Feats:|Improved Spell Capacity (10th, 11th, 12th) , [19 non-bonuns feats, i recommend Feats that boost casting, below are some i'd give it, feel free to change them] Improved Meta-Magic Capacity x5, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Maximize Spell, Searing Spell, Twin Spell, Repeating Spell, Split Ray, Energy Substitution (Fire), Energy Admixture (Fire), Fast Healing x4
[B]Environment:|warm, mountains
Organization:|solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Challenge Rating:|36
Advancement:|56+ HD (Colossal+)
Level Adjustment:|-
[/TABLE]

Breath Weapon (Su): A red dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of fire. It deals 34d10 fire damage in an 80 ft. cone, Reflex DC 52 for half damage. Once it uses its breath weapon, it can not use it again for 1d4 rounds.

Frightful Presence (Ex): A can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 510 ft. are subject to the effect if they have fewer than 55 HD. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 48) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Spell-Like Abilities: 17/day—Locate Object; 3/day—suggestion (DC 23); 1/day—find the path, discern location (DC 28). CL 29, the save DCs are Charisma based.

Spells: This dragon casts spells as a 29th level sorcerer who chooses spells from the sorcerer and cleric spells list, as well as the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains. The save DCs are DC 20+spell level.

Spells Per Day (+x indicates bonus spells with a charisma of 30): 6/6+3/6+3/6+2/6+2/6+2/6+2/6+1/6+1/6+1/1+1/1+0/1+0

Spells Known: 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 [I have some recommendations, though you should choose them, the feats are for a Maiman build, this link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer?pg=1) has advice for how to choose spells for damage, though you may want this dragon to have a different focus, in which case, change stuff to suit your needs. the [X/Y] brackets is how many i've suggested out of those known]
0th: [0/9]
1st: True Casting, True Strike, [2/5]
2nd: Wings of Cover, [1/5]
3rd: [0/4]
4th: Orb of Fire, Wings of Flurry, [2/4]
5th: Arcane Fusion, Surge of Fortune, [2/4]
6th: Heal, Eyes of the Oracle [2/3]
7th: Arcane Spellsurge, [1/3]
8th: Moment of Prescience, Greater Arcane Fusion, Celerity Greater [3/3]
9th: Miracle, [1/3]

Possession: You choose, i'd recommend a Cloak of Charisma +12, probably something to boost Dex & CL too.


I hope this helps.

-rweird

[Urpriest]

I don't know how much experience you have advancing monsters, but if you feel like you need more general advice my Monster Handbook (link in sig) is well-regarded for this sort of thing.

[Phelix-Mu]

To OP, please review both Draconomicon and Savage Species for feats good for dragons. In particular, Shockwave from Draconomicon can be useful for big combats (less useful against flying opponents).

A dragon that doesn't have spells/feats optimized for flying (not typical of very old dragons) should probably invest in some anti-flying spells and defenses. Lair traps/wards with downdraft would be nice, and the dragon might have access to a staff or something with this in it (not sure if it's good enough to make the dragon's list of spells known).

Remember that dragons of this caliber are probably wealthy enough to own any item in existence in sufficient quantities that they never will run out. Thus, barring some kind of suicide-inducing attack of the stupids/arrogants, the dragon should use any beneficial item often and frequently.

[Dark_Ansem]

@Rwerid. It does, thank you. Can you do the LVL50 as well (it's the "back in time" version)?

@Ur-priest I like what you write but I see no PDF download, am I looking not hard enough?

I do have Draconomicon, not Savage species, however.

[Urpriest]

@Ur-priest I like what you write but I see no PDF download, am I looking not hard enough?


It's not a PDF. It's a forum handbook of advice, not a published rulebook.

[rweird]

@Rwerid. It does, thank you. Can you do the LVL50 as well (it's the "back in time" version)?

I'll try to get around too it when i have the time. Maybe you should try making the Gold one and post it here so we can make sure its done right. This (http://dspeyer.dyndns.org/monster_builder.html) can help with a base, though it requires some tweaking.

[Dark_Ansem]

Gold Dragon -> HD 55
Great Wyrm: hd 41 -> 4,6 (14/3) Virtual age categories
Size -> Colossal+
AC= +14
Breath Weapon: increased to 80-80-80 feet for cone-shaped (gas and fire)
SR: +8 (unless decimals count)
Abilities: Str/Con= +8 (2x4) Dex=unchanged Wis/Int/Cha=+4(2x4/2)
DR: 20/epic or possibly more, I am unsure about that
Caster Level: +8 (2x4)
Feats=+3
CR= +8

anything wrong?

[rweird]

I Bolded my response.

Gold Dragon -> HD 55
Great Wyrm: hd 41 -> 4,6 (14/3) Virtual age categories
Size -> Colossal+
AC= +14 Natural Armor
Breath Weapon: increased to 80-80-80 feet for cone-shaped (gas and fire) 32d10 fire or 16 strength damage, The strength damage is suppose to increase by 2 dice so it might be 8d10+12 strength damage
SR: +8 (unless decimals count)
Abilities: Str/Con= +8 (2x4) Dex=unchanged Wis/Int/Cha=+4(2x4/2)
DR: 20/epic or possibly more, I am unsure about that It by RAW drops to 15/epic, i'd make it increase to 25/epic
Caster Level: +8 (2x4)
Feats=+3 Gains Improved Spell Capacity twice as bonus feats
CR= +8

anything wrong?

[Dark_Ansem]

I Bolded my response.

thanks. how do the various physical attacks and hp update?

[rweird]

thanks. how do the various physical attacks and hp update?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm has the C+ natural attack damages, HP, (6.5*HD [If your giving average HP])+(Con*HD).

Ex (55HD Red Dragon, Con 41 {+15}): Hit Dice: 55d12+825 (1183 hp), 55*15=825 (con mod*55), 6.5*55=357.5 (round to 358) [HD*6.5], 825+358=1183 hp.

The monster maker i linked you too earlier gives HD*6 instead of HD*6.5, so you'll have to fix that.

[Dark_Ansem]

thanks :) what about the shadow dragon?
it should also reach Colossal+ size, aye?

when advancing, should I use draconomicon or SRD rules? the draconomicon are more streamlined and not as specific, but can be applied for every dragon on the list, while the SRD does not list the time dragon.

[TypoNinja]

thanks :) what about the shadow dragon?
it should also reach Colossal+ size, aye?

when advancing, should I use draconomicon or SRD rules? the draconomicon are more streamlined and not as specific, but can be applied for every dragon on the list, while the SRD does not list the time dragon.

the SRD rules work, the dragon type doesn't matter, they get the same bonuses every 3 HD.

[Urpriest]

thanks :) what about the shadow dragon?
it should also reach Colossal+ size, aye?

when advancing, should I use draconomicon or SRD rules? the draconomicon are more streamlined and not as specific, but can be applied for every dragon on the list, while the SRD does not list the time dragon.

Use the Draconomicon one. The SRD one is from the epic level handbook, which is a 3.0 source. The Draconomicon rules should be fully 3.5 updated.

[rweird]

thanks :) what about the shadow dragon?
it should also reach Colossal+ size, aye?

when advancing, should I use draconomicon or SRD rules? the draconomicon are more streamlined and not as specific, but can be applied for every dragon on the list, while the SRD does not list the time dragon.

If the dragon reaches Colossal at Great Wyrm or before, it can become Colossal+, if it doesn't, it'll never become Colossal or larger.

I think the SRD rules can be applied to all dragons, and i'd use them.

[Bogardan_Mage]

If the dragon reaches Colossal at Great Wyrm or before, it can become Colossal+, if it doesn't, it'll never become Colossal or larger.
No, you are misreading the epic advancement rules, it's talking about how the non-epic advancement works (and therefore why you should use the epic advancement).

One important element of dragon advancement is increasing size. The dragons that don’t reach Colossal size by the great wyrm stage can never reach it according to the standard advancement rules. When advancing a dragon, consider its basic size group: lesser (white, black, brass, and copper dragons), ordinary (green, blue, and bronze dragons), greater (silver, red, and gold), or epic (force and prismatic). A dragon that is Tiny as a wyrmling is in the lesser group, a dragon that is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in the ordinary group, and a dragon that is Small to Large as a wyrmling and reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage is in the greater group. A lesser dragon becomes Colossal when it gains two age categories (6 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. It increases to Colossal+ when it gains an additional four age categories (12 HD). An ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. It increases to Colossal+ when it gains an additional four age categories (12 HD). A greater dragon becomes Colossal+ when it gains four age categories (12 HD) more than it needed to reach the Colossal size.
(Emphasis mine). As you can see, all dragons can become Colossal+, just some get there sooner than others.

[rweird]

No, you are misreading the epic advancement rules, it's talking about how the non-epic advancement works (and therefore why you should use the epic advancement).

(Emphasis mine). As you can see, all dragons can become Colossal+, just some get there sooner than others.

Ah, my mistake, sorry.

[Dark_Ansem]

just for reference purposes:


The advancement rules in the Monster Manual allow dragons
theoretically infinite progression even beyond the
statistics of great wyrm. This book lets dragons improve
more than their Hit Dice as they progress to unparalleled
heights of power.
Age Category: A standard dragon gains one “virtual age
category” for every 3 Hit Dice it gains beyond the great
wyrm stage. A 61 HD red dragon, with 21 more Hit Dice
than a standard great wyrm, has gained seven virtual age
categories, meaning its effective age category is nineteen.
Abilities that function once per day per age category or otherwise
use the dragon’s age category as part of a calculation
use this adjusted number.
Size: One important element of dragon advancement is
increasing size. The dragons that don’t reach Colossal size by
the great wyrm stage can never reach it according to the
standard advancement rules. When advancing a dragon,
consider its basic size group: smaller (black, brass, copper,
and white dragons), normal (blue, bronze, and green dragons),
or larger (gold, red, and silver dragons). A dragon that
is Tiny as a wyrmling is in the smaller group, a dragon that
is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in
the normal group, and a dragon that is Small to Large as a
wyrmling and reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage is in
the larger group.
A smaller-sized dragon becomes Colossal when it gains
two age categories (+6 HD) beyond great wyrm. It increases
to Colossal+ (see below) when it gains an additional four age
categories (+18 HD total). Thus, a white great wyrm reaches
Colossal size at 42 HD and Colossal+ at 54 HD, while a brass
great wyrm becomes Colossal at 43 HD and Colossal+ at
55 HD.
A normal-sized dragon becomes Colossal when it gains
one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. It increases
to Colossal+ when it gains an additional four age categories
(+15 HD total). Thus, a green great wyrm reaches Colossal
size at 41 HD and Colossal+ size at 53 HD, while a bronze
dragon becomes Colossal at 42 HD and Colossal+ at 54 HD.
A larger-sized dragon becomes Colossal+ when it gains
four age categories (12 HD) more than it needed to reach
the Colossal size. Thus, a silver or red dragon becomes
Colossal+ at 52 HD, and a gold dragon becomes Colossal+ at
53 HD.
Colossal+ Size: Although there is no size category larger
than Colossal, the largest advanced dragons have a greater
reach and deal more damage with their attacks than other
Colossal dragons. These dragons are said to be of Colossal+
(“Colossal plus”) size.

A Colossal+ dragon has a space of 30 feet, like any other
Colossal dragon, but its reach is 10 feet longer than normal
with each attack form, and it has a proportionately longer
tail slap and tail sweep. A Colossal+ dragon deals 6d6 points
of damage with its bite attack, 4d8 with its claws, 4d6 with
its wings, 4d8 with its tail slap, 6d6 with its crush, and 4d6
with its tail sweep.
A Colossal+ dragon’s line-shaped breath weapon extends
160 feet (5 feet high and 5 feet wide, as normal). A Colossal+
dragon’s cone-shaped breath weapon is 80 feet long, 80 feet
high, and 80 feet wide. The size modifier for these dragons
remains –8.
Armor Class: An advanced dragon’s natural armor bonus
increases by +1 for every Hit Die it gains beyond the great
wyrm stage. (You can use this rule for lesser dragon advancement
as well, since natural armor and Hit Dice always
increase at the same rate.)
Breath Weapon: If an advanced dragon’s breath
weapon deals damage, the damage typically increases by 2
dice for every virtual age category the dragon gains. The
two exceptions in the Monster Manual are the brass and
white dragons, whose breath weapon damage increases by
only 1 die per age category. The saving throw DC against
the breath weapon remains 10 + 1/2 the dragon’s HD + its
Con modifier.
Spell Resistance: An advanced dragon’s spell resistance
increases by 2 per additional age category.
Speed: An advanced dragon’s fly speed, maneuverability,
land speed, and other special movement types (swim,
burrow, and so on) do not change.
Ability Scores: A great wyrm’s Strength and Constitution
scores both increase by 2 points for every virtual age
category the dragon gains. Its Dexterity remains
unchanged. Its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
increase by 2 points for every two virtual age categories
the dragon gains.
Special Abilities: Dragons do not gain additional spelllike
abilities. When a dragon gains one virtual age category
beyond the great wyrm stage, its damage reduction improves
to 20/epic.
Caster Level: A great wyrm’s sorcerer caster level
increases by 2 for every virtual age category the dragon
gains.
Feats: Like ordinary dragons, advanced dragons receive
one feat for every 4 Hit Dice they have. Any feats gained
after the dragon reaches old age can be epic feats (see the
descriptions earlier in this chapter).
Challenge Rating: An advanced dragon’s Challenge
Rating increases by 2 per additional virtual age category.
All other dragon statistics are as presented for dragons in
general and specific dragon varieties in the Monster Manual
and other sources.

[Dark_Ansem]

let's try with the Shadow Dragon. correct me when I am wrong.

HD: 37-55d12 + ? (18 lvls/3: 6 age categories)
Size: Colossal+
Abilites: Str 47 (+12) Dex 10 Con 39 (+12) Int/Wis 38 (+12/2) Cha 39 (+12/2)
Natural Armor Bonus: +18
SR: +12
CR: +12

can someone fill the missing details?

also, apparently there is difference in the damage table here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm
and in Dragon 359 (where the time dragon is). which one should I use?

[rweird]

let's try with the Shadow Dragon. correct me when I am wrong.

HD: 37-55d12 + ? (18 lvls/3: 6 age categories)
Size: Colossal+
Abilites: Str 47 (+12) Dex 10 Con 39 (+12) Int/Wis 38 (+12/2) Cha 39 (+12/2)
Natural Armor Bonus: +18
SR: +12
CR: +12

can someone fill the missing details?

also, apparently there is difference in the damage table here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm
and in Dragon 359 (where the time dragon is). which one should I use?

I don't have the book the Shadow Dragon is in, though it looks good from what i can tell. For damage, i'd uses the SRD, though Dragon 359 for the Time Dragon's damage.

I think it would gain 12 more effective levels in its spellcasting class as well.

[Dark_Ansem]

Shadow Dragon is in Draconomicon.

for nonepic dragons the Draconomicon damage listing for increased size is ok. the doubt is just for epic dragons :) which shows some difformity between the SRD/Epic level handbook and dragon 359 (the different one).
I think you are right however, the SRD/Epic Level handbook is possibly the way to go. Dragon 359 has the same stats as Draconomicon, so I guess that one is at fault.

besides, how many years is each virtual age category, in your opinion?

[Dark_Ansem]

should I tackle the Time Dragon next?

[rweird]

Sure, i look forward to seeing it.

[Dark_Ansem]

what about the prevoous questions I asked? how many years do you feel each "virtual age category" is?

[blueblade]

Are you giving this guy any divine ranks? If not, 150 HD dragons may be just as easy to defeat as 50 HD dragons...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank1-5

[Dark_Ansem]

Time Dragon (Great Wyrm HD 99)
HD 99->144 (45hd= 15 age categories)
HP: 144d12+?
Size: Already Colossal+
Full attack: epic dragon damage table (?) + bonus ?
Abilities: Str 91->121 (+2x15) Dex 10 Con 73->103 )+2x15) Int 74 -> 88 (+2x7?) Wis 81->95 (+2x7?) Cha 74->88 (+2x7?)
SR: +30
AC: 136 (-8, +144 natural, +1 dodge), flat 3, flat-footed 136
DR: 20- ? it already gains DR 20/- at HD 66
Caster Level: +30
CR: +30
Breath Weapon: ?
Slow aura: 10 feet x age category= 11 standard? + 15 advanced??

Epic ability score table (no bonus spells)
46-47 18
48-49 19
50-51 20
52-53 21
54-55 22
56-57 23
58-59 24
60-61 25
62-63 26
64-65 27
66-67 28
68-69 29
70-71 30
72-73 31
74-75 32
76-77 33
78-79 34
80-81 35
82-83 36
84-85 37
86-87 38
88-89 39
90-91 40
92-93 41
94-95 42
96-97 43
98-99 44
100-101 45
102-103 46
104-105 47
106-107 48
108-109 49
110-111 50
112-113 51
114-115 52
116-117 53
118-119 54
120-121 55
122-123 56
124-125 57
126-127 58
128-129 59
130-131 60

[Dark_Ansem]

Are you giving this guy any divine ranks? If not, 150 HD dragons may be just as easy to defeat as 50 HD dragons...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank1-5

would it be appropriate? I think the advanced dragon should be completed first, then eventually add divinity ranks.

[rweird]

Epic dragons gain a virtual age category every 5 HD, so it only would gain 9.

Also, epic dragon SR increases weirdly, +3/age category for Force Dragons, +6/age category for Prismatic Dragons, i think maybe +9/age category for Time Dragons

I'd have the age categories count as normal for frightful presence, breath and the like. I'd also bump its DR to 25/-.

Divinity: If he is a god, i think you should add divinity.

Age: I'm not sure, it seems to end up as 1/200 years (not sure how accurate that'd be), 1/400 years for epic dragons, though it really varies for time dragons, i'd say either an additional 1d2 millennia per age category, maybe increase it on dice size for each (+1=+1d3 millennia, +2=+1d4 millennia, +3=+1d6 millennia, +4=+1d8 millennia, +5=+1d10 millennia, etc, maybe making the number of d100s double after 1d100 millennia).

[Vaz]

If he is a god, he shouldm't have stats unless you want him to be killed.

[rweird]

If he is a god, he shouldm't have stats unless you want him to be killed.

He wants the PCs to be able to kill him (though it should be very hard for them to do that).

[Vaz]

By the time they are anywhere near any sort of CR, the players would be able to challenge him without fighting.

Mind Rape and Loves Pain, for one. All it would take is a few additional levels of Wu Jen (13), Incantatrix 3, and 2 Archmage Levels, plus enough levels in other spell casting classes, and unless that Dragon does something equally cheesy, such as persisting the ability to persist beastlands ferocity trick, the wu jen casts mind rape, then uses sla to loves pain and body outside body, and each 3 clones does the same, who each make 3 clones, and does the same, ad infinitum.

[Dark_Ansem]

Epic dragons gain a virtual age category every 5 HD, so it only would gain 9.

Also, epic dragon SR increases weirdly, +3/age category for Force Dragons, +6/age category for Prismatic Dragons, i think maybe +9/age category for Time Dragons

I'd have the age categories count as normal for frightful presence, breath and the like. I'd also bump its DR to 25/-.

Divinity: If he is a god, i think you should add divinity.

Age: I'm not sure, it seems to end up as 1/200 years (not sure how accurate that'd be), 1/400 years for epic dragons, though it really varies for time dragons, i'd say either an additional 1d2 millennia per age category, maybe increase it on dice size for each (+1=+1d3 millennia, +2=+1d4 millennia, +3=+1d6 millennia, +4=+1d8 millennia, +5=+1d10 millennia, etc, maybe making the number of d100s double after 1d100 millennia).

that is SRD info. apparently it's different in Draconomicon. unspecified for all dragons.

[rweird]

that is SRD info. apparently it's different in Draconomicon. unspecified for all dragons.

Yes, the ages where my suggestions for it using SRD calculations. If Draconomicon has different info, use it.

[mregecko]

By the time they are anywhere near any sort of CR, the players would be able to challenge him without fighting.

Mind Rape and Loves Pain, for one. All it would take is a few additional levels of Wu Jen (13), Incantatrix 3, and 2 Archmage Levels, plus enough levels in other spell casting classes, and unless that Dragon does something equally cheesy, such as persisting the ability to persist beastlands ferocity trick, the wu jen casts mind rape, then uses sla to loves pain and body outside body, and each 3 clones does the same, who each make 3 clones, and does the same, ad infinitum.

And a simple Mind Blank gets rid of the Mindrape scenario (not to mention possible epic buffs).

Regarding Love's Pain, I'd love to see a build that can deal 7000+ damage with Love's Pain... And even if there is one, with a hundred+ millenia-old dragon epic dragon with 40+ sorcerer levels, I'm assuming that (if they do have a nearest love one), they are either able to defend themselves or the Dragon can defend them.

I'm not saying there aren't infinite-loop shenanigans, etc... That could kill this. But I wouldn't underestimate the forethought of a creature with an 88 intelligent and thousands of years and nigh-infinite wealth/xp to protect itself. The crafted contingencies alone are probably in the thousands.

[rweird]

And a simple Mind Blank gets rid of the Mindrape scenario (not to mention possible epic buffs).

Regarding Love's Pain, I'd love to see a build that can deal 7000+ damage with Love's Pain... And even if there is one, with a hundred+ millenia-old dragon epic dragon with 40+ sorcerer levels, I'm assuming that (if they do have a nearest love one), they are either able to defend themselves or the Dragon can defend them.

I'm not saying there aren't infinite-loop shenanigans, etc... That could kill this. But I wouldn't underestimate the forethought of a creature with an 88 intelligent and thousands of years and nigh-infinite wealth/xp to protect itself. The crafted contingencies alone are probably in the thousands.

Also, after casting the first one, the Time Dragon could travel back in time and kill you before your a powerful wizard.

[mregecko]

God I love Time Dragons...

[Elycium]

Also, after casting the first one, the Time Dragon could travel back in time and kill you before your a powerful wizard.

That´s cheating D:<

[rweird]

That´s cheating D:<

Its a god dragon thing, no-one will stop it. Besides, that kind of is how they fight.

[Elycium]

Its a god dragon thing, no-one will stop it. Besides, that kind of is how they fight.

Well, yeah, but its very anti-climatic.

[TuggyNE]

And a simple Mind Blank gets rid of the Mindrape scenario (not to mention possible epic buffs).

Who casts mind blank on all the commoners in the world?

Nobody, that's who, and that's just the point; mindrape + love's pain is an indirect attack, and doesn't directly target the enemy at all. Thus, it bypasses saving throws, spell resistance, and touch AC. (Well, the direct target gets SR and touch, but who cares?)

[Vaz]

And a simple Mind Blank gets rid of the Mindrape scenario (not to mention possible epic buffs).

Regarding Love's Pain, I'd love to see a build that can deal 7000+ damage with Love's Pain... And even if there is one, with a hundred+ millenia-old dragon epic dragon with 40+ sorcerer levels, I'm assuming that (if they do have a nearest love one), they are either able to defend themselves or the Dragon can defend them.

I'm not saying there aren't infinite-loop shenanigans, etc... That could kill this. But I wouldn't underestimate the forethought of a creature with an 88 intelligent and thousands of years and nigh-infinite wealth/xp to protect itself. The crafted contingencies alone are probably in the thousands.


No, Mindrape anyone into thinking Dragon God is their loved one.

Loves Pain affects loved one. Body Outside Body and Loves Pain as SLA from Archmage. Incantatrix 3 Persists the Body Outside Body for free.

Assuming Wu Jen Caster Level of 20, that is 4 clones twice day, each of those clones can each make 4 clones twice a day as well, as can each of those clones. ad infinitum.

At minimum, Loves pain does 10 damage a pop, so I would need 700 castings.

Archmage 2 gets Loves Pain as an SLA. Each clone can cast it as well. Round 1, I cast Body Outside Body 1, makes 4 clones. I cast it again, makes 20. I cast BOB again, I make 80. 76 cast BOB, 304. 288 cast it, 1524 clones. On my 6th round, all cast loves pain at the mindraped individual: in other words 15240d6 damage with no save or sr available. Of course it can sit in a permanent AMFp, but when will it ever do that?

that little trick can be pulled at ECL21 requiring only a scroll of mind rape, andpossibly as early as ECL17.

Edit; and even then you can simulacrum yourself to get one free of mind blank then mind rape.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, many god-like beings do ultimately use very uninteresting tactics for defeating possible assailants. That doesn't mean, however, that gaming against one can't be interesting. If the time dragon has some plot-scale ability to time travel to undo eventual enemies before they are strong enough to oppose it, then maybe the players must first undergo some kind of "time stream baptism" or similar plot/questy thing to give them immunity to this specific ability of the dragon. Gearing up to fight the epic of epic enemies should require lots of forethought and preparation, much in the manner of the quest to get to the quest that is actually the goal of the campaign.

It's definitely doable. Particularly if the npcs are resourceful with things like epic npc friends and allies, which they probably should be, since they will have needed to kill or befriend a large number of very powerful people in the process of getting to a level where fighting these dragons becomes realistic (notice realistic, not possible, as pun pun or lesser grades of optimization can render CR calculations vastly irrelevant).

EDIT: An intelligence of 88, vastly beyond the realm of irl human capability, means the dragon knows the rules behind spellcasting better than anyone on the forum. Ergo, in thousands of years of contemplation, he has figured out most infinite damage loops, and set up defenses against them. In particular, a slightly modified version of the merely-god-like ability to be aware of those talking/thinking about you would allow the dragon to be aware when someone was mindraped in this manner. Enter time-travel shenanigans.

Heck, some kind of god-level defense that prevents normal mortals from being capable of being aware of your existence, some kind of timeprint erasure, the ultimate anti-scrying/anti-divination stealth, shouldn't take a dragon of this caliber more than a couple centuries to have erected.

[Elycium]

Yes, many god-like beings do ultimately use very uninteresting tactics for defeating possible assailants. That doesn't mean, however, that gaming against one can't be interesting. If the time dragon has some plot-scale ability to time travel to undo eventual enemies before they are strong enough to oppose it, then maybe the players must first undergo some kind of "time stream baptism" or similar plot/questy thing to give them immunity to this specific ability of the dragon. Gearing up to fight the epic of epic enemies should require lots of forethought and preparation, much in the manner of the quest to get to the quest that is actually the goal of the campaign.




If I were a Immortal Kickass Colossal+ Epic Dragon God Lord of Time, I would be like "Bring it, ******! Not using such things as killing mortals before they can even bring a decent fight, but well, that just me.

[Dark_Ansem]

If I were a Immortal Kickass Colossal+ Epic Dragon God Lord of Time, I would be like "Bring it, ******! Not using such things as killing mortals before they can even bring a decent fight, but well, that just me.
I agree :P although as a God of Time I'd not be this cocky :P
about going back in time in order to kill the heroes : a good idea, but that would destroy the campaign :P

@rweird: The draconomicon info again differs from the Epic Level Handbook (advancing info only). I appreciate the age suggestions :) but what I mean was for all the dragons not just the time dragon.

[rweird]

For age, the first part said: " I'm not sure, it seems to end up as 1/200 years (not sure how accurate that'd be), 1/400 years for epic dragons, " then it went on about time dragons.

Elycium: Though if they try to kill me through brainwashing the world to love me instead of actually fighting me, i'd pop back in time and kill them before they started that silly scheme. If they just come with pointy sticks, i'd be like "bring it!"

[Socratov]

Well, as an epic god dragon of timey-wimey stuff I'd be terribly amused at a couple of puny mortals trying to kill me while I allready knwo what will happen and have acted accordingly. I'd bring them in an anti-other's-magic field surrounded by forcewalls and talk with them on the uselessness of what they are doing becuase essentially I allready know. and if they surpise me I just travel back in time to correct the timeline (nto that you could, you'd need to earlier by a couple of millenia). this will create a few different timelines, but then again, it's what I do. I'd laugh them off and tell them to stop disturbing your naptimes. Oh, and I'd give them something to do to keep them from disturbing my afternoon naps. And then I'd tell them to get off my lawn. Young whippersnappers...

[Vaz]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

Travel back through time (although requires Wiz 17/Archmage +1, so significantly upping the ECL).

Even with 30 Divine Ranks, they can only see up to 30weeks in the future.

So, 30 weeks prior to doing so, it sees you massing your army and casting Teleport Through Time to 60 weeks prior; considering that there's 17 possible results (+/- d8 Hours), you need 17 times the amount of casts - so ~12,000 Clones - achievable in about 8-10 rounds of casting SLA 2/day Body Outside Body, followed by a Travel Through time to get at least 1/17th to appear at the specific moment in time you wish.

Bang, job done. Sounds like shenanananananigans, but it is Epic level. It's worth expecting it.

Not to mention it only "notices" an event involving 1000 or more people - if you limit yourself to 998 clones and yourself, then he won't notice it, and you don't even need to time travel.

[Dark_Ansem]

so which info should be used for advancing Epic Dragons? SRD, Epic Level handbook or Draconomicon?

[rweird]

Vaz: But when you go back in time, the dragon would sense you then too.

Dark_Ansem: I'd go with the SRD unless Draconomicon has specifics for advancing Epic Dragons of the type you want to advance.

[Vaz]

Portfolio Sense
Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.


Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.

Using these I don't even think I'd need to use Time Travel; and I could really just keep Time Travelling back through time until I reach a period where it wasn't a God.

Planar Shepherd Xoriat could break that open even wider; it might be aware but because I have 10 rounds to do my shiz, it only gets 1 standard action.

Also -


Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

You're a Colossal+ Dragon God, that is a 4x4square , as opposed to 6x6 base.

[Dark_Ansem]

Vaz: But when you go back in time, the dragon would sense you then too.

Dark_Ansem: I'd go with the SRD unless Draconomicon has specifics for advancing Epic Dragons of the type you want to advance.

it does not. in fact, it is not even listed in any source, poor time dragon.

[rweird]

Vaz: He can time travel right along with you, he'd sense you leaving, and passing by, and he'd go after you, possibly multiple copies of him considering there'd be some many in the time stream. As for Planar Bubble, he has a counter, Time Stop every round, this includes inside a Time Stop, so he'd have infinite rounds to do whatever while you have 10, though he could't directly attack you, he could go back to when you were born and kill you. Once he becomes a god he'd travel all through the time stream, you wouldn't be able to find a place he isn't a god for long, though it depends on his DvR how effective it'd be. Still, you killing a god back in time would effect quite a lot of people so he probably could detect that.

Dark_Ansem: I'd recommend a cross between the SRD and Homebrewing it by extrapolating from patterns then.

[Dark_Ansem]

Vaz: He can time travel right along with you, he'd sense you leaving, and passing by, and he'd go after you, possibly multiple copies of him considering there'd be some many in the time stream. As for Planar Bubble, he has a counter, Time Stop every round, this includes inside a Time Stop, so he'd have infinite rounds to do whatever while you have 10, though he could't directly attack you, he could go back to when you were born and kill you. Once he becomes a god he'd travel all through the time stream, you wouldn't be able to find a place he isn't a god for long, though it depends on his DvR how effective it'd be. Still, you killing a god back in time would effect quite a lot of people so he probably could detect that.

Dark_Ansem: I'd recommend a cross between the SRD and Homebrewing it by extrapolating from patterns then.

just how much crossing?

[Vaz]

Vaz: He can time travel right along with you, he'd sense you leaving, and passing by, and he'd go after you, possibly multiple copies of him considering there'd be some many in the time stream. As for Planar Bubble, he has a counter, Time Stop every round, this includes inside a Time Stop, so he'd have infinite rounds to do whatever while you have 10, though he could't directly attack you, he could go back to when you were born and kill you. Once he becomes a god he'd travel all through the time stream, you wouldn't be able to find a place he isn't a god for long, though it depends on his DvR how effective it'd be. Still, you killing a god back in time would effect quite a lot of people so he probably could detect that.

He could detect it, but he couldn't do anything about it. He only has sensory information, not full information of intention.

Eh. Incantatrix = Persisted Time Stop. It can rest and recover spells during this time.

From there feel free to do whatever. Teleport Through Time to a time when it's still in an egg, craft a load of contingencies designed to destroy the location its in, the eggs itself, etc (lots of evocations to spray out, earthquakes, apocalypse's from the sky, a ton of gates to bring in natural enemies to the dragon, etc), and then use Astral Hospice to get to a location that NOTHING outside of yourself and named people can get to.

[rweird]

He could detect it, but he couldn't do anything about it. He only has sensory information, not full information of intention.

Eh. Incantatrix = Persisted Time Stop. It can rest and recover spells during this time.

From there feel free to do whatever. Teleport Through Time to a time when it's still in an egg, craft a load of contingencies designed to destroy the location its in, the eggs itself, etc (lots of evocations to spray out, earthquakes, apocalypse's from the sky, a ton of gates to bring in natural enemies to the dragon, etc), and then use Astral Hospice to get to a location that NOTHING outside of yourself and named people can get to.

It is pretty much all knowing, not from divine senses, but from traveling through time from start to finish and observing the world. It'd be interested in time travel and follow you out of curiosity, when it sees you trying to destroy its egg, (though you'd have to fight other time dragons protecting the egg), it'd come (from multiple places in the time stream) to stop you. It'd go back in time till the time you were born and kill you with one version of it in the time stream, have a bunch of other ones stop you (if you even can figure out when its born, it very well could be born 100000 years in the future, or 1000000 years in the past before recorded history, so then you'd wander around trying to find it). You can't beat it with Time Travel, it can Time Travel too, and spend a bunch of time (as much as it needs) preparing to fight you before that happens. It could Gate you out of the Astral Hopspace, or Gate something to destroy it (Bag of Holding and Portable Hole). You can't beat this thing in Time Travel, and you'd have to be able to defeat hundreds of copies of it. It probably is hanging on some demiplane from the future sending Astral Projections and Simulacrum through time, he also can Ice Assassin you and send it back in time to kill you. I don't see you killing that thing unless you have free access to past present and future, as well as being able to match it in combat when you both have infinite time to prepare.

Dark_Ansen: Follow the SRD as closely as you can, though make it so DR increases 5 points, and SR increases by at least 6, i'd probably say 9.

[Aharon]

Who casts mind blank on all the commoners in the world?

Nobody, that's who, and that's just the point; mindrape + love's pain is an indirect attack, and doesn't directly target the enemy at all. Thus, it bypasses saving throws, spell resistance, and touch AC. (Well, the direct target gets SR and touch, but who cares?)

Actually, Time Dragons may be one of the few creatures that can become immune to Love's Pain. The spell description states that If the loved one is within an antimagic field, the spell has no effect. Time Dragons are immune to any non-instantaneous effects not created by themselves, so a Time Dragon worth his salt should get an ally, or bound creature to regularly cast AMF on him, or use an item to do so. It harms him in no way, but prevents one of the very few ways to attack creatures across planes.

[Vaz]

Time Dragons are Colossal+, they don't fit "within" an AMF of 10ft cube. As a deity, they'd be immune anyway, though.

[Aharon]

Cast multiple fields so they are completely surrounded. I was assuming the non-divine rank version.

Help me there, which part of being a deity makes one immune against Love's pain? I don't know right now.

[Elycium]

Time Dragons are Colossal+, they don't fit "within" an AMF of 10ft cube. As a deity, they'd be immune anyway, though.


Man, in the Dracomicon, it is said that one of the strategies that the dragon use, is the AMF, so I guess, that the spell adapt, somehow to the caster.

[TuggyNE]

Man, in the Dracomicon, it is said that one of the strategies that the dragon use, is the AMF, so I guess, that the spell adapt, somehow to the caster.

I was going to suggest Widening and Enlarging, but Enlarge doesn't work on the non-standard 10' range, and without that Widen is useless.

So unless there's some other way to make AMFs larger, there'll be bits sticking out.

[Vaz]

Man, in the Dracomicon, it is said that one of the strategies that the dragon use, is the AMF, so I guess, that the spell adapt, somehow to the caster.

Well, it's still a 20ft cube, so assuming normal space, anything that's at least Huge or smaller will fit within, possibly Gargantuan, as long as they keep their wings closed. Colossal and Colossal+ meanwhile would be too large within. Of course, can Huge Dragons cast AMF? Can't remember off pat.

[Elycium]

Well, it's still a 20ft cube, so assuming normal space, anything that's at least Huge or smaller will fit within, possibly Gargantuan, as long as they keep their wings closed. Colossal and Colossal+ meanwhile would be too large within. Of course, can Huge Dragons cast AMF? Can't remember off pat.


It doesn’t specify, but what it is said is that a the Dragons spells, are normally useless against equals because their caster level is lower than his actual level, so they normally use magic to modify the battlefield to their advantage, one the most dramatically ways to make this is using the AMF, because even without his breath weapons or his others spells, the dragon can move pretty well inside such field because his natural weapons can dish a lot of damage.

Now, the book put this as an option, so it doesn’t say what Raze of the True Dragons can do this or in what age can do so.

[Dark_Ansem]

Redone Time Dragon, correct me where I am wrong :) all those values increase from Great Wyrm stage

HD99->144 (SRD 9 age categories)
Size: Colossal+
AC: +45
Breath weapon: GW 12(90) -> +18?
SR: 99 + 9 x ?? (no time dragon specific spell resistance increase, again I think a value this high means immunity, right?)
Speed: Colossal+ epic draogn values
Abilities: Str 109 Dex 10 Con 91 Int 82 Wis 89 Cha 82
DR: 25/epic 25/- ? ; natural weapons count as epic
CL: +18
CR: +27

[rweird]

Thats about what i'd do, though for SR, Epic Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon) follow a pattern (force always increased by 3, prismatic by 6), so if you look at the Time Dragon's SR increase, and see if you can find the rate it increases, you could extrapolate from there.

[Dark_Ansem]

from wyrm to great wyrm is 9, otherwise it's variable..
and in fact, it even decreases in one level!

[rweird]

from wyrm to great wyrm is 9, otherwise it's variable..
and in fact, it even decreases in one level!

I'd either average the increase, or just have it be 9/virtual age category.

[Dark_Ansem]

considering that apparently what really matters is not HD but CR is important as well, I guess I should re-consider all my ideas....

Time Dragon: HD144+CR144 (either +27 divine rank or a lot of templates)(I guess some divine ranks will be required after all)
Shadow Dragon: CR 50, hd unknown (templates?) (do the negative levels increase with the virtual age categories? they are not "Damage" in the strictest of senses).
Red/Gold Dragon: CR 50 (again, templates?)

EDIT: A warcraft template I like, and will possibly use.


New Template: Eternal
Many beings in the Warcraft universe transcend
the bounds of mortal power and play key roles in the
world’s long history, either obvious or subtle. These
beings are known as Eternals. Wielding godlike
powers, they battle to destroy or save the world, to
disrupt or cultivate life upon Azeroth (and elsewhere).
Which great champion of good or twisted
practitioner of evil will enter their ranks next?

Creating an Eternal
“Eternal” is an acquired template that may be
added to any dragon, elemental, fey, humanoid,
monstrous humanoid, outsider or undead (referred
to hereafter as the “base creature”). The Eternal
uses all of the base creature’s statistics and special
abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The base creature’s size usually
increases by at least one step (determined by the GM).
The majority of Eternals are Huge or larger, though
Medium and smaller Eternals are possible. If the creature’s
size changes, use Table 4–2: Changes to Statistics by
Size in the MM to calculate changes to natural armor,
Armor Class, attack rolls and grapple bonus.
The base creature’s type becomes outsider (except
for an elemental), though its Hit Dice, base
attack bonus, skill points and other such features of
its original type are retained. The base creature also
gains the Eternal subtype.

Hit Dice and Hit Points: An Eternal must have
20 or more Hit Dice. An Eternal receives maximum
hit points for each Hit Die.

Speed: An Eternal’s base land speed improves by
one-third (rounded down to a multiple of 5). Overall
speed increases by another 20 feet as a
supernatural effect (this extra movement is negated
by antimagic field and similar effects). For
example, if the base creature’s speed is 30 feet, its
new speed is 60 feet.

Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +5.
The Eternal gains a deflection bonus to AC equal
to its Charisma bonus (if any), and a divine bonus
to AC of +1 for every 10 Hit Dice. For example, an
Eternal with 35 HD has a +3 divine bonus to AC.
If the creature’s size changed, see Table 4–2:
Changes to Statistics by Size in the MM to determine
its new Armor Class and to see whether its
natural armor changes further.
70

Base Attack/Grapple: If the base creature’s size
increased, it gains additional Strength and an improved
size bonus to grapple checks.
Attack and Full Attack: An Eternal’s attacks do
not automatically fail on a natural roll of 1.
If Strength or Dexterity change, use the new
modifier to determine attack bonuses. A change in
a monster’s size also changes its attack bonus; see
Table 4–2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the MM.
Damage: If the base creature’s size increased, its
weapons (both natural and manufactured) increase
in size as well.

Space/Reach: If the Eternal’s size increased, the
base creature’s Space and Reach should be adjusted
as appropriate.
Special Attacks: An Eternal retains all the special
attacks of the base creature and also gains the
following attacks.

Epic Weapons (Ex): An Eternal’s natural weapons
are treated as epic weapons aligned as the
Eternal’s alignment for the purpose of overcoming
damage reduction. For example, the natural weapons
of a chaotic evil creature are treated as chaoticand
evil-aligned weapons.

Spell-Like Abilities: Choose up to one spell of 8th
level or lower per 10 Hit Dice. The Eternal may cast
these spells at will as a 20th-level caster.
Choose up to one spell of 9th level or lower per
20 Hit Dice. The Eternal may cast these spells once
per day as a 20th-level caster.
The save DC for all spell-like abilities is 20 + the
spell’s level + the Eternal’s Charisma bonus (if any).
Special Qualities: An Eternal retains all the
special qualities of the base creature and also gains
the following qualities. If the base creature already
has one or more of these special qualities, use the
better value.

Booming Voice (Ex): When an Eternal speaks or
makes a sound, as a free action he can make his voice
be heard by all creatures within a 5-mile radius.

Damage Reduction (Ex): An Eternal has damage
reduction 20/epic. This overlaps but does not stack
with any existing damage reduction.

Eternal Immunities (Ex): The Eternal is immune
to banishment and imprisoning effects, death effects,
disease, disintegration, all mind-affecting
effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns
and morale effects), paralysis, poison, petrification,
polymorphing attacks, sleep effects and stunning.
The Eternal is not subject to ability damage, ability
drain, critical hits, energy drain, exhaustion, fatigue
or nonlethal damage.

Eternal Presence (Ex): The Eternal’s mere presence
is awe-inspiring. This mind-affecting ability
takes effect automatically whenever the Eternal’s
presence is felt through sight, speech, an attack or
any other means. Creatures within 100 feet per Hit
Die are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD
than the Eternal.
Allies of the Eternal receive a +2 morale bonus
on attacks, damage rolls, saving throws, ability
checks and skill checks for 4d6 rounds.
Neutral creatures must succeed on a Will save
(DC 10 + half the Eternal’s HD + the Eternal’s
Charisma modifier) or stare at the Eternal in fascination
for 4d6 rounds. They can defend themselves
normally, but take no other actions.
Enemies of the Eternal must succeed on a Will
save (DC 10 + half the Eternal’s HD + the Eternal’s
Charisma modifier) or be shaken for 4d6 rounds. A
shaken creature becomes frightened if the Eternal
threatens the victim in any way, such as by attacking,
casting a spell, approaching the victim, or even
looking the victim in the eye menacingly. Enemies
immune to fear are treated as neutral creatures for
this effect.
A potentially affected creature that succeeds at
its Will saving throw remains immune to that
Eternal’s divine presence for one day.

Fast Healing (Ex): An Eternal has fast healing
equal to half its Hit Dice.

Immortality (Ex): Eternals do not age, eat, sleep
or breathe. An Eternal cannot die from natural
causes or from taking massive damage.
Keen Senses (Ex): An Eternal has darkvision 120
ft., low-light vision, and is continuously affected as
though by the true seeing spell.
Resistances (Ex): An Eternal has resistance to
acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic 10.

Spell Resistance (Ex): An Eternal has spell resistance
35 if the base creature’s spell resistance is not
already better.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): An Eternal can react to
danger before its senses would normally allow it to
do so. It retains its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)
even if it is caught flat-footed or struck by an
invisible attacker. However, it still loses its Dexterity
bonus to AC if immobilized.

Base Save Bonuses: An Eternal gains a resistance
bonus on saving throws equal to its Charisma
bonus (if any) and a divine bonus to saving throws
of +1 per 10 Hit Dice.
An Eternal’s saving throws do not automatically
fail on a natural roll of 1.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows:
Str +6, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +8, Cha +10.
If the creature’s size changed, see Table 4–2: Changes
to Statistics by Size of the MM for additional changes
to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

Skills: An Eternal gains a +1 divine bonus per 10
Hit Dice on all skill checks.

Feats: An Eternal gains the Improved Initiative
feat for free if it does not already have it.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +7.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +13.

[rweird]

Negative Levels: From the breath, if they follow a pattern, then yes, if it stays the same, it'll keep staying the same.

DvR: I'd recommend the SRD DvR system, or maybe dicefreaks (though I don't know enough about it myself, someone probably will pop up and recommend it to you). Still, I don't know enough about warcraft to really know much about the template.

[Dark_Ansem]

here is Shadow Dragon progression for negative levels, up to great wyrm from wyrmling:
1 1 1 2 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 8

about those systems: can you provide links? I can't find them :D

[rweird]

here is Shadow Dragon progression for negative levels, up to great wyrm from wyrmling:
1 1 1 2 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 8

about those systems: can you provide links? I can't find them :D

I'd have the shadow dragons negative levels increase 1/age category beyond great wyrm.

SRD Divinity:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm

Dicefreaks: I don't know, I think this is it, though there very well is more: http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19

[Dark_Ansem]

change made for great wyrm?

[rweird]

change made for great wyrm?

What? :smallconfused: I don't quite understand.

[Dark_Ansem]

What? :smallconfused: I don't quite understand.

I mean, you followed the changes made for great wyrm stage?

[rweird]

I mean, you followed the changes made for great wyrm stage?

For negative levels, yes, it might be more accurate for every 2+x age categories it not advance for one, I think it'd be simpler the other way. If you think that is to much, make it advance 2/3 age categories, not giving one every 3.

[Dark_Ansem]

how does the blend ability of the shadow dragon work?

[rweird]

Does it give 9/10th concealment? If so, I'd have it so it just give it the Shadow Mastiff's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm) Shadow Blend ability

[Dark_Ansem]

it is said


Shadow Blend (Su): In any condition of illumination
other than full daylight, a very young or older shadow dragon
can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment.
Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell,
does not negate this ability. A daylight spell, however, does.

I do not understand exactly what can miss and how much it can miss.

[rweird]

The SRD says:

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

Does this help?

[Dark_Ansem]

somewhat :) I don't understand what is blocked, however.

[rweird]

Nothing is blocked, things that exclusively target the creature (attack rolls) have a miss chance if you know the square (though you can't see the creature), Area of Effect things don't (not being seen won't stop a fireball from burning you).

Pretty much, if it isn't an AoE and has an attack roll, it has miss chance (assuming you know the square, which you'd either make a listen check opposed by move silently, or guessing correctly).

[Dark_Ansem]

so all ranged attacks or also melee attacks?

and all spells that don't have an AoE?

[rweird]

so all ranged attacks or also melee attacks?

and all spells that don't have an AoE?

All ranged and melee attacks, yes, unless they specify otherwise (you'd still need to find where the creature is to be able to hit it).

Spells that aren't AoE, I'm not actually sure, if it requires an attack roll like disintegrate, treat it as a ranged attack. As for things like Dominate Monster, I'm not sure, asking people on This thread might help: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261338

[Dark_Ansem]

I understand. I wanted to be sure it was also for melee attacks.

I guess that while a spell like Negative Energy Ray is affected, one like Meteor Storm or Mordenkainen disjunction is NOT.

[rweird]

I understand. I wanted to be sure it was also for melee attacks.

I guess that while a spell like Negative Energy Ray is affected, one like Meteor Storm or Mordenkainen disjunction is NOT.

Meteor Swarm would be effected if you use them as ranged touch attacks to try to hit, but not as AoEs.

[Dark_Ansem]

I understand. I'll have to redo the time dragon after the exam on the 14th...

[Dark_Ansem]

Redone, but needed.
Time Dragon (HD144)
HD: 144d12 (+45 HD)
Virtual Age Categories: 9 (45/5)
Size: Colossal+
AC: +45
Breath Weapon: Ravaging time deals CON damage, so I guess it gets +9 Con damage points (1 x each age category), correct me if I am wrong
-Time Expulsion: no change
SR: either + 3x9 or +6x9 as the rules do not "know" this dragon.
Abilities: Str/Con +2x9, Int/Wis/Cha +2x8
DR: 25- I guess, as it already starts with 20- at great wyrm
Caster Level: +18
Slow Aura: +90 feet
CR: +18

CR wanted: 144. someone suggested Divine Ranks... or otherwise?

[rweird]

Looks good. For DvR, if you want it to be a god, give it some, if not, then don't.

How powerful a god do you want it to be?

[Dark_Ansem]

just enough so that its CR goes to 144 :)
is the DR cumulative? in the drago magazine it lists both a DR 20/epic and a DR 20/-

[rweird]

just enough so that its CR goes to 144 :)
is the DR cumulative? in the drago magazine it lists both a DR 20/epic and a DR 20/-

No, it isn't cumulative. it should be 25/epic and 20/-, so if the weapon isn't epic, it subtracts 25 from damage, and if it is epic, it subtracts 20 from the damage (the feat improved Damage Reduction can further increase it).

[Dark_Ansem]

I see. thanks for explaining that.
how should I calculate hp and natural weapon damage?

[rweird]

For weapon attack damages, the table here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm

For HP, it'd be (6.5 [average of a d12]*Hit Dice)+(Con modifier*Hit Dice). If you want them to have maximum HP, then 12*HD instead of 6.5*HD.

[Dark_Ansem]

that + strength modifier? no dex modifer as it has a base dex of 10 now

[rweird]

+full strength modifier for bite
+half strength modifier for claws and wings
+one and a half strength modifier for Tail Slap, Tail Sweep, and Crush.

[Dark_Ansem]

so, per bite it's X*1, per wings/claws it's X*0,5 and for tail/crush X*1,5?

[rweird]

so, per bite it's X*1, per wings/claws it's X*0,5 and for tail/crush X*1,5?

Yeah, that's how it is.

[Dark_Ansem]

Time Dragon (incomplete)
Size: Colossal+
Age Category: Great Wyrm+ (9 age categories, 21 categories total)
HD: 144d12 (1728+[40x144]) 5760hp (max hp)
AC: 137 (+144, -8size, +1 dodge), flat-footed 137, touch 3
Abilities: Str 109 (+49) Dex 10 (+0) Con 91 (+40) Int 90 (+40) Wis 97 (+43) Cha 90 (+40)
Attack: ?
Grapple:?
Saves: ?
Full attack: 8d6+49 bite, 4d8+25 claw, 4d6+25 wing, 4d8+74 tail slap, 8d6+74 crush, 4d6+74 tail sweep
breath weapon:
*21Con Damage, Fortitude Half, Save 122
*time expulsion: 21 rounds
Spell resistance: ?
Caster Level: 55
Damage Reduction: 20/Epic + 20/- ?
Slow aura: 210 feet (10xage category)
CR: 108
Spells: unknown, no timestop nor haste, however, thanks to natural abilities
feats: again, unknown because some divine ranks have to be added.

[rweird]

Bolded Changes.


Time Dragon (incomplete)
Size: Colossal+
Age Category: Great Wyrm+ (9 age categories, 21 categories total)
HD: 144d12 (1728+[40x144]) 5760hp (max hp)
AC: 137 (+144 natural, -8 size, +1 dodge), flat-footed 137, touch 3
Abilities: Str 109 (+49) Dex 10 (+0) Con 91 (+40) Int 90 (+40) Wis 97 (+43) Cha 90 (+40)
Attack: Bite +186 melee (8d6+49), or tail slap +186 melee (4d8+73)
Grapple:?
Saves: ?
Full attack: Bite +186/+186 melee (8d6+49), 2 claws +181 melee (4d8+24), 2 wings +181 melee (4d6+25), and tail slap +181 melee (4d8+73)
breath weapon:
*21Con Damage, Fortitude Half, Save 122
*time expulsion: 21 rounds
Spell resistance: 144 [?, for the CR it has, it is more than sufficient]
Spells: As a 55th level sorcerer
Special Attacks: tail slap, crush, tail sweep, slow aura, breath weapon, Spell-like abilities, spells, [others?]
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction: 20/Epic (I'd have it be 25/epic) and DR 20/-, Spell resistance 144 [?, for the CR it has, it is more than sufficient] spell-like abilities, spells, [others?]
CR: 108
Spells: unknown, no timestop nor haste, however, thanks to natural abilities
feats: again, unknown because some divine ranks have to be added. Improved Spell Capacity x11 [bonus feat]

[Dark_Ansem]

Bolded Changes.

thanks. in order to reach a CR of 144 how many divine ranks would you add and how much does it imply?

[rweird]

thanks. in order to reach a CR of 144 how many divine ranks would you add and how much does it imply?

SRD Divine Ranks doesn't have a set CR increase. In a way, it really depends (level fighter 1 with Alter Reality and Hand of Death could give a 20th level party some difficulties, while if it has divine weapon focus, it'd be around even with a CR 3).

I personally would guess DvR 6 would add around 36 to CR, though it really depends on the SDAs chosen.

[Dark_Ansem]

well, on divine ranks I really have no idea, so if you could help me I'd greatly appreciate it.
no too flashy powers, I'd say. This Alter Reality seems extremely difficult to do properly.

[rweird]

well, on divine ranks I really have no idea, so if you could help me I'd greatly appreciate it.
no too flashy powers, I'd say. This Alter Reality seems extremely difficult to do properly.

Could you explain exactly what you don't understand?

Alter Reality is a way for a deity to pretty much do anything. It is something that makes it so killing it is really hard, and it can pretty much do anything, as opposed to other things that just give it nifty abilities.

[Dark_Ansem]

well I'd rather have it nifty abilities, rather than Alter Reality, I'd say

[rweird]

This is a list of SDAs, it gets 8, you can develop your own too: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm

[Dark_Ansem]

so in the end how many ranks and abilities should I give the dragon so that it gets a 144CR?

[rweird]

so in the end how many ranks and abilities should I give the dragon so that it gets a 144CR?

I said my guess is DvR 6, though there really isn't a set in stone thing to determine CR boost/DvR.

I really don't know.

[Dark_Ansem]

in the Deities and demigods handbook it says...

Deities do not have Challenge Ratings. Entities of this sort are
so far above the realm of mortal heroes that determining their
level of power in relation to mortals becomes almost meaningless.
If you feel the need to calculate a Challenge Rating for a deity, try
adding its total Hit Dice to its divine rank. The result may or may
not be an accurate estimate of what level of characters could challenge
the god; regardless, you should not use this Challenge
Rating for determining experience point awards for characters
who do defeat the deity.

is this a good suggestion?

[rweird]

in the Deities and demigods handbook it says...

Deities do not have Challenge Ratings. Entities of this sort are
so far above the realm of mortal heroes that determining their
level of power in relation to mortals becomes almost meaningless.
If you feel the need to calculate a Challenge Rating for a deity, try
adding its total Hit Dice to its divine rank. The result may or may
not be an accurate estimate of what level of characters could challenge
the god; regardless, you should not use this Challenge
Rating for determining experience point awards for characters
who do defeat the deity.

is this a good suggestion?

I suppose so, though getting to to CR 144 doesn't really matter, I don't expect anyone to be level 137 or higher when they face it.

Still, for this, it won't work because DvR 0 would increase its CR by 36, but making it DvR 1 (way better than DvR 0) would only increase CR 1 more (DvR 0 can't really be worth more than +15 CR at best [worse than Paragon, which is +15 CR]).

I could see it being a threat with DvR 1, 6, 11, 16, or 20. Maybe add 3 to CR for each DvR? (DvR 12)

At this level, CR is rather meaningless. It will be add hoc unless you're playing a really high level game.


I'd say consider how powerful a god you want it to be, and choose Divine Rank accordingly (CR is weird, and the higher level you go, the more unbalanced it gets, at this level, you probably could call it CR 144 as is, or CR 144 with 20 Divine Ranks).

[Dark_Ansem]

thanks. but I'd rather be precise, as 144 is a number associated with time, that is why I am being obsessed with it :D

[rweird]

thanks. but I'd rather be precise, as 144 is a number associated with time, that is why I am being obsessed with it :D

The problem is, CR is not precise at this level. I have no idea how to get a good CR for it, because there is nothing to compare it to in terms of power, and a divinity doesn't give good CR. Really, in the end, you have to guess and do trail and error.

Deities & Demigods method probably would work rather well if it has class levels instead of a bunch of dragon HD.

I kind of guessed it was a number associated with time, though I really can't help you with CR.

[TuggyNE]

The problem is, CR is not precise at this level. I have no idea how to get a good CR for it, because there is nothing to compare it to in terms of power, and a divinity doesn't give good CR. Really, in the end, you have to guess and do trail and error.

That's the understatement of the month; CR becomes nothing more than dartboarding by maybe 30 or 40 at the latest. The difference between CR 144 and CR 288 can scarcely be determined objectively, and it's almost impossible to meaningfully understand anything anywhere near that level of power. (For example, it's difficult to be sure that the most powerful beings in literature are all that much more than CR 25.)

[rweird]

That's the understatement of the month; CR becomes nothing more than dartboarding by maybe 30 or 40 at the latest. The difference between CR 144 and CR 288 can scarcely be determined objectively, and it's almost impossible to meaningfully understand anything anywhere near that level of power. (For example, it's difficult to be sure that the most powerful beings in literature are all that much more than CR 25.)

True, all true. I agree.

[Dark_Ansem]

why is that?

[rweird]

why is that?

In D&D 3.5, character's power does not scale linearly, a 20th level wizard isn't 20 times as powerful as a 1st level wizard, a 20th level wizard is 400 times as strong, if not stronger, and it is hard to judge a monster that would be a challenge for a 144th level party because there aren't 144th level parties, and if so, they'd not be all that much better than a 50th level party (they'd pretty much be immune to anything, you'd have to find something they aren't immune to to kill them, though it pretty much is the person not knowing how to get immune to something that makes the person killable).

Also, not all monsters are equal in power.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires

The second is almost double the first's CR, though the Titan Elder would pretty much always win if they fight because the Titan Elder has Astral Projection and Teleportation the Hecatoncheires can't match, so it can't deliver a killing blow, the Titan it has 29 levels of spell casting, while the hecatoncheires only has a few SLAs and melee.

[Dark_Ansem]

as you put in your sig, any spellcasting capacity can tide dramatically the course of battle.

[rweird]

as you put in your sig, any spellcasting capacity can tide dramatically the course of battle.

Yes, though spellcasting improves in no significant way beyond 20th level really (unless you use epic spellcasting, in which case it improves a small amount every 10 levels, though it is massively broken regardless), and can be used to kill that Time Dragon pretty much just as well at 30th, 144th, 288th, or 1000th level (CL increases help some, though boosting CL is easy).

[Dark_Ansem]

so even a hgh CR could be trashed by an epic spellcaster?

[TypoNinja]

so even a hgh CR could be trashed by an epic spellcaster?

a 42nd* level caster could easily product a combo of the Dispel and Slay seeds to kill this dragon(or anything with 160HD or less) from more than a mile away, with a save the dragon can't make.

On the off chance it doesn't work the first time for some reason you get to try again, and risk nothing because of Astral Projection.

Killing a CR over 100 above you ought to be good for several billion XP.

*I choose 42nd level caster so that his simulacrums would all be 21st level.

[Dark_Ansem]

heheh a good example. I bet that Divine ranks would help in preventing total slayage.

[rweird]

TypoNinja: Your assuming the dragon doesn't Astrally Project itself or whatnot though and you can get LoE on the dragon with your massive ritual from miles away (and if you're closer, the dragon would realize what's happening and teleport away, [and if he wants to counter-attack, travel through time, and kill the wizard when he is born]).

Dark_Ansem: Long and short, yes, though it can have problems, level is irrelevant, just capabilities (for example epic spellcasting) and what defenses they have (usually restricted by player knowledge of the game).

[TypoNinja]

TypoNinja: Your assuming the dragon doesn't Astrally Project itself or whatnot though and you can get LoE on the dragon with your massive ritual from miles away (and if you're closer, the dragon would realize what's happening and teleport away, [and if he wants to counter-attack, travel through time, and kill the wizard when he is born]).


Pointless tangent. Its combat between two high level casters, whoever had the best preparation wins. We could turn this thread into 50 pages of "Defense you didn't think of". "Counter".

Dragon's biggest limiting factor is that he casts as a Sorcerer so has a very limited spell list, my money is on the wizard in the long run as hes more likely to come up with an attack the dragon has no answer for.

[rweird]

Pointless tangent. Its combat between two high level casters, whoever had the best preparation wins. We could turn this thread into 50 pages of "Defense you didn't think of". "Counter".

Dragon's biggest limiting factor is that he casts as a Sorcerer so has a very limited spell list, my money is on the wizard in the long run as hes more likely to come up with an attack the dragon has no answer for.

True, though my money is on the time dragon due to it being able to travel into the future/past, and Astrally Project a time traveling form for it to explore the universe, and just show up when the wizard is born and kill him (or before the wizard reaches X point and learns of the dragon).

[Vaz]

Wu Jen 13/Incantantrix 3/Archmage 5. Archmage SLA's Body Outside Body.

Wu Jen cast's Body Outside Body, Incantatrix Persists, Archmage SLA's allows 10 castings of Body Outside Body which each gets Persisted, so each clone can generate 40 Clones, so on and so forth, ad infinitum. (Round 1; Wu Jen casts BOB to make 4 Clones. R2; 4 Clones Cast BOB SLA to make 16 Clones, 20 Total. R3 20 Clones Cast BOB SLA to make 80 Clones, 100 Total. R4, 100 Clones cast BAB SLA to make 400 Clones, 500 Total. R5; 500 Clones cast BOB SLA to make 2000 Clones, 2500 Total. R6; 2500 Clones cast BOB SLA to make 10000 Clones, 12500 Total. First Generated Clones have now expended all spell slots (-4 Clones from Total casting BOB); R7; 12496 Clones cast BOB SLA to make ~50k Clones....); that's 50,000 clones, all sacrificing 8th level spell slots within 7 rounds. These clones all sacrifice their Epic spell slot (so 50K times -19, for -950K Mitigating Factor, from 7 rounds; if we say that roughly, the number of participants is multiplied by 5 each round; then after 14400 Rounds (24 hours), you are looking at Infinity; roughly 4*(5^14399) Clones (with a mitigating factor of 76*(5^14399); and it doesn't stop there either, it can carry on until you computer breaks.

Each clone grants additional Spellslots to an Epic Spell of Invisibility-to-everything with a DC of your-screen-ran-out-of-pixels (seriously, you go into e numbers in excel after 14 Rounds for the Mitigating Factor; you have a mitigating factor of -92773437500 DC (-92.7 Thousand Million) after 14 rounds of generating clones.

To develop the spell, make it Instantaneous (so it can't be dispelled and requires an opposed check according to the spell DC (which courtesy of all of our free clones is infinity high)); can be done by the Heal Spell. Epic spells durations are always the shortest duration possible; go figure the thought process behind that. Once the spell is cast, you can then go to town. Make yourself Diminutive, and make every possible sort of bonus with bonuses to hide, and make it Instantaneous once more. Increase your Stats in similar manners; they're not Permanent, they're instantaneous, so don't max out at +5 and aren't required to be Inherent. Throw in a Ward Spell seed so that any attacks of the Deity actually fail. By the time the Dragon realises that the little experiment your character had to create an Epic Invisibility spell was used to allow yourself the ability to develop spells capable of giving you stats to poke Pun-Pun in the wrong-un, you're unfindable (with a Hide bonus in the millions, and un-locateable undispellable, diminutive invisibility); as are all your clones, and you're free to Pun Pun away.

TL;DR, Epic spellcasting is on the table at 21st level. At 21st level, within 14 Rounds, the Dragon is as good as dead.

[rweird]

Vaz: As before, your assuming you can find the dragon in its native time and get the first strike. Also, clones explicitly don't have spell casting, still, if you need to pull of Pun-Pun shenanigans to beat it, I think that this just escaped actual game powers, and the dragon would do all the Pun-Pun stuff as soon as it can time travel (I think dragons count as scalykind). Even if it doesn't do that, it could cross its own timeline again and again to get infinite clones that age it to Great Wyrm (one seed can advance creatures in age categories, using heal seed to make it instantaneous, as you did) as soon as it is born and do all sorts of Epic Spellcasting shenanigans.

As a sitting duck, you could beat it, and with enough cheese you might be able to, though it can do all that as well. Epic characters are really powerful and can kill stuff like that, though that has the stuff thats killing being Pun-Pun level, while the opponent sits around and has a build no-where nearly as powerful.

[Dark_Ansem]

divine ranks would definitely help.

[rweird]

divine ranks would definitely help.

Yeah, I suppose they would. Alter Reality and Rejuvenation would make him pretty much un-killable (and have the ability to cast pretty much every spell). It really depends on if you want him to be able to be beat, if not, give him DvR 16 and Divine Splendor, along with what I previously mentioned.

[Dark_Ansem]

that divine splendor is just cheat :P

[rweird]

that divine splendor is just cheat :P

Not really, staying 200 feet away should be easy-ish at that level, if not a given.

[Dark_Ansem]

another exam due soon, but not forgotten about this.

[kiryoku]

Here are the rules stated by the epic handbook on advanced dragons.

SIZE
-Lesser dragons
become colossal after two virtual age category or 6HD
become colossal+ after four or 12HD

-normal dragons
Become colossal after one or 3HD
become colossal after four or 12HD

-Greater dragons
become colossal+ after four or 12HD

-Epic dragons
already colossal+ to not increase after that.

-AC natural +1 for each HD it gains

-breath weapon increases +2 die for each virtual age category, +1 die for brass and white.

-Spell resistance +2 per virtual age category for normal dragons, +3 for epic, +6 for prismatic dragons.

-speed fly gets +50 at colossal+ and goes down to clumsy if it isn't already.

-DR goes up by +5 for every two virtual age categories. +10 for epic dragons.

-Caster level +2 for every virtual age category.

-feats 1 every 4HD like normal.

-ability scores go up +2 str and con for each virtual age category. +2 Int, Wis, and Cha for every two virtual age category.

Thats all it gives them by advancement.

[Dark_Ansem]

now I don't understand, however: 1 point of CON damage by the Time Dragon's breath to how many hp does it quantify? is it 1:5 or more?

[rweird]

now I don't understand, however: 1 point of CON damage by the Time Dragon's breath to how many hp does it quantify? is it 1:5 or more?

None, it decreases the person's Con score, meaning they'd get less bonus HP, and eventually a penalty to HP/HD, once con reaches 0 a creature dies. It is negative levels that are 1:5.

Going with mods it is effectively 2 con damage:HD HP decrease, this is assuming Con is odd, if even it'd do HD damage after the first point is lost, then 2 con damage: HD HP decrease.

[Dark_Ansem]

wait, I don't understand... can you re-explain it in a simpler way? or a practical example?

also, the rules for advancing dragons say breath weapon "advances of 2 dice" for each virtual age category. however, can CON damage be considered a damage dice?

[rweird]

wait, I don't understand... can you re-explain it in a simpler way? or a practical example?

also, the rules for advancing dragons say breath weapon "advances of 2 dice" for each virtual age category. however, can CON damage be considered a damage dice?

Recalculate HP with the new CON mod whenever CON is reduced. If CON is reduced to 0, the creature dies.

I personally would consider CON damage dice (so if it is 1/age category, advancing it 3 age categories would be +3 CON damage), though by RAW, it wouldn't advance (run is weird that way).

[Dark_Ansem]

considering it's 2/category, that would be a +6...

so it harms maximum hp, it can be said.

[rweird]

considering it's 2/category, that would be a +6...

so it harms maximum hp, it can be said.

I think you're giving the time dragon 9 age categories though, or +18, for a total of 42 Con.

[Dark_Ansem]

no wonder why it's so deadly. so in fact it prompts for a recalcuation of maximum hit points, aye? at least it's only damage and not drain.

[Dark_Ansem]

In addition to that, I'd like to know how should I advance the hellfire wyrm: not with the standard advancement rules, I'd say, for dragons, since he has no great wyrm stage. and the phoenix :P

[TypoNinja]

In addition to that, I'd like to know how should I advance the hellfire wyrm: not with the standard advancement rules, I'd say, for dragons, since he has no great wyrm stage. and the phoenix :P

If its not a true dragon with age categories then it just advances by type, as indicted in its entry. Sometimes with size increases. In this case, it does get bigger.

It'll get more HD, and what comes with HD (skill points, feats, BAB, saves, higher DC's on HD based abilities, ect) but no special bonsues that come with age catagories, like sizing up, breath weapon damage, stat increases.

The Phoenix oddly enough has no advancement listed.

Though if you really wanted to, simply applying more HD of the type is easy enough.

[Dark_Ansem]

thanks! but how can I re-calculate the new damage dices of, say, the breath weapon or the special qualities in general?

regarding Time dragon: I read that CON damage can never go below 1 hp, is that correct? that breath weapon cannot kill?

[rweird]

If a character's Con is reduced to 0, they die.

For advancing Hellfire Wyrm and Phoenix, there is no set advancement, sometimes the damage seems arbitrary, though sometimes you can find a pattern (HD, 1/2 HD, 1/3 HD, 2/3 HD, sometimes CR instead of HD, CON modifier, etc), the trick is to see what it is. None of those increases are included in the rules though, and some seem arbitrary (especially 20d6), and just are chosen, in which case scaling them is a pain and I have no advice really.

[graymachine]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm has the C+ natural attack damages, HP, (6.5*HD [If your giving average HP])+(Con*HD).

Ex (55HD Red Dragon, Con 41 {+15}): Hit Dice: 55d12+825 (1183 hp), 55*15=825 (con mod*55), 6.5*55=357.5 (round to 358) [HD*6.5], 825+358=1183 hp.

The monster maker i linked you too earlier gives HD*6 instead of HD*6.5, so you'll have to fix that.

Shouldn't it have a few more hp? Not that it matters much when the hp is in the four digits, but the first HD should be full hp, not half, right?

I'm thinking of hp from class levels.

[Dark_Ansem]

If a character's Con is reduced to 0, they die.

For advancing Hellfire Wyrm and Phoenix, there is no set advancement, sometimes the damage seems arbitrary, though sometimes you can find a pattern (HD, 1/2 HD, 1/3 HD, 2/3 HD, sometimes CR instead of HD, CON modifier, etc), the trick is to see what it is. None of those increases are included in the rules though, and some seem arbitrary (especially 20d6), and just are chosen, in which case scaling them is a pain and I have no advice really.

what I mean is that I checked in the rules and, I probably have mis-interpreted, but I thought I read that CON damage can never make CON drop lower than 1

[TuggyNE]

what I mean is that I checked in the rules and, I probably have mis-interpreted, but I thought I read that CON damage can never make CON drop lower than 1

Not so, but far otherwise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss). Some spells that give temporary penalties, such as ray of enfeeblement, have a clause that forbids them from hitting 0, but otherwise the only restriction is that they never go below 0.

[137beth]

Yes, though spellcasting improves in no significant way beyond 20th level really (unless you use epic spellcasting, in which case it improves a small amount every 10 levels, though it is massively broken regardless), and can be used to kill that Time Dragon pretty much just as well at 30th, 144th, 288th, or 1000th level (CL increases help some, though boosting CL is easy).

This is very, very, wrong. Sorry. Actually, spells/day increases faster at epic levels than it does at nonepic levels, because of the availability of magic items. For example (note: there is no published WBL for epic games that I am aware of, though there is gold/encounter in the ELH. For my games, since the gold/encounter chart in the ELH gives a nearly perfect exponential regression, I usually just assume that the players keep 90% of their wealth).

At level 30, they have a WBL (using my approximation) of 4.7 million. Gold at epic levels buys both stat-boosting magic items (which gives you bonus spells for high ability scores), items which cast spells (everyone has UMD--get one rank in it, then get a magic item which gives a bonus to UMD, +30 to a skill from one item is available by level 20, so this is easy), and give spellcraft-boosting items to power your epic spells. Also, note that while WBL continues to increase exponentially, the cost of increasing numbers on magic items is quadratic, so the power level you can afford increases faster than any polynomial.

Continuing with the examples you gave, at level 144, WBL will be roughly 323 billion gold. If you put even 1/10th of that into a single item boosting your primary casting stat, you can afford an item with a +1798 enhancement bonus to an ability score. This gives an additional 224 bonus spells at every level you can cast. You can get even higher by mixing multiple types of modifiers. And then you still have 90% of your WBL to spend on scrolls/wands, wondrous items which give you a ton of immunities, and spellcraft bonuses for epic spells.
(In case you are wondering, the WBL for level 1000 is roughly 8.7*10^46. At that point, the power level is just silly. Then again, the power level was already rather silly at level 144, so...)

I should also probably add that giving a CR 144 monster "DR X/epic" is entirely pointless--almost everything at those levels is either a nondamaging spell effect or an epic weapon. Finally, when advancing a monster by adding HD, especially at epic levels, you should not use the core advancement rules to determine CR. The one and only way to determine if it is an appropriate threat is to playtest it against characters with similar abilities to your players (you could even test-run with your player's character sheets--the fight will likely go down quite differently when the real players are making different choices than you would have, so this doesn't really kill any suspense for your point of view).

[TypoNinja]

This is very, very, wrong. Sorry. Actually, spells/day increases faster at epic levels than it does at nonepic levels, because of the availability of magic items. For example (note: there is no published WBL for epic games that I am aware of, though there is gold/encounter in the ELH. For my games, since the gold/encounter chart in the ELH gives a nearly perfect exponential regression, I usually just assume that the players keep 90% of their wealth).

At level 30, they have a WBL (using my approximation) of 4.7 million. Gold at epic levels buys both stat-boosting magic items (which gives you bonus spells for high ability scores), items which cast spells (everyone has UMD--get one rank in it, then get a magic item which gives a bonus to UMD, +30 to a skill from one item is available by level 20, so this is easy), and give spellcraft-boosting items to power your epic spells. Also, note that while WBL continues to increase exponentially, the cost of increasing numbers on magic items is quadratic, so the power level you can afford increases faster than any polynomial.

Continuing with the examples you gave, at level 144, WBL will be roughly 323 billion gold. If you put even 1/10th of that into a single item boosting your primary casting stat, you can afford an item with a +1798 enhancement bonus to an ability score. This gives an additional 224 bonus spells at every level you can cast. You can get even higher by mixing multiple types of modifiers. And then you still have 90% of your WBL to spend on scrolls/wands, wondrous items which give you a ton of immunities, and spellcraft bonuses for epic spells.
(In case you are wondering, the WBL for level 1000 is roughly 8.7*10^46. At that point, the power level is just silly. Then again, the power level was already rather silly at level 144, so...)

I should also probably add that giving a CR 144 monster "DR X/epic" is entirely pointless--almost everything at those levels is either a nondamaging spell effect or an epic weapon. Finally, when advancing a monster by adding HD, especially at epic levels, you should not use the core advancement rules to determine CR. The one and only way to determine if it is an appropriate threat is to playtest it against characters with similar abilities to your players (you could even test-run with your player's character sheets--the fight will likely go down quite differently when the real players are making different choices than you would have, so this doesn't really kill any suspense for your point of view).

WBL is published in the ELH. And DMG I think that might be for NPC's though. The chart stops at 40 however. Honestly though at that point it doesn't matter, If you haven't figured out how to bend an economy over your knee by 40th level you deserve to be broke.

And spellcasting progression after 20 levels significantly drops off. There are no new spell levels, the only thing you are worried about is keeping caster level high, and there are plenty of ways to boost that. Caster levels are king in a build because the idea is to get to 9s as fast as possible, once you are there that's kind of it.

All other 20+ level casting increases come from feats, Automatic Metamagic, Extra slot, ect. Its worth running around PrC's to fish for unique or otherwise hard to acquire abilities from class features (demon wrecker is amazing). And you need to keep your caster level in shouting distance of your class level but since you learn no new spells, and gain no new levels of spells, bonus caster feats are more useful than caster levels much of the time.

And as you rightly pointed out magic items. Actual casting classes become somewhat less useful.

[137beth]

WBL is published in the ELH. And DMG I think that might be for NPC's though.
The one in the ELH is for NPCs. Not sure why they "forgot" to include one for PCs...

And spellcasting progression after 20 levels significantly drops off. There are no new spell levels, the only thing you are worried about is keeping caster level high, and there are plenty of ways to boost that. Caster levels are king in a build because the idea is to get to 9s as fast as possible, once you are there that's kind of it.
So what, you don't count metamagiced spells with spell levels higher than 9th:smallconfused: Those can be pretty darn important. Heighten spell is really nice when you want to raise DCs (though an item to boost your casting stat is still usually better). Again, while the class itself does not continue to gain spells, the increase in spells from magic items substantially more than makes up for this. But yea, caster level is ultimately more important than spells/day--it makes your spells harder to dispel/resist, and anything which can't negate your spells is screwed. Unless your DM is making you craft all your own items, the best way to get spells with a really high caster level is, once again, from items.

The nice thing about epic levels is that aside from epic spells, the game becomes more balanced: all those class features and feats the bard has are nearly meaningless compared with its WBL, so it isn't much better than a commoner of the same level (of course, when the wizard strolls in and unleashes their epic spells to negate everything...)

As for "breaking" WBL, this is the one thing keeping epic character's power in check, so a careful DM will prevent economy-breaking cheese. Just like we shouldn't assume a monster is over-CRed when it loses to pun-pun, we shouldn't assume that economy breaking tricks will necessarily work. They do require a skilled DM to prevent, but they are by no means certain.

[TypoNinja]

The one in the ELH is for NPCs. Not sure why they "forgot" to include one for PCs...

So what, you don't count metamagiced spells with spell levels higher than 9th:smallconfused: Those can be pretty darn important. Heighten spell is really nice when you want to raise DCs (though an item to boost your casting stat is still usually better). Again, while the class itself does not continue to gain spells, the increase in spells from magic items substantially more than makes up for this. But yea, caster level is ultimately more important than spells/day--it makes your spells harder to dispel/resist, and anything which can't negate your spells is screwed. Unless your DM is making you craft all your own items, the best way to get spells with a really high caster level is, once again, from items.

The nice thing about epic levels is that aside from epic spells, the game becomes more balanced: all those class features and feats the bard has are nearly meaningless compared with its WBL, so it isn't much better than a commoner of the same level (of course, when the wizard strolls in and unleashes their epic spells to negate everything...)

As for "breaking" WBL, this is the one thing keeping epic character's power in check, so a careful DM will prevent economy-breaking cheese. Just like we shouldn't assume a monster is over-CRed when it loses to pun-pun, we shouldn't assume that economy breaking tricks will necessarily work. They do require a skilled DM to prevent, but they are by no means certain.

What are you going to do with a metamagiced slot over 9th? A Mailman already runs the table without it, and automatic metamagic feats give you completely free metamagic, 10th level slots are a waste of time when you could take improved metamagic instead and just chop a level off all your metamagics.

Heighten? Why bother? Dice caps are caster level not spell level, and if your desire for higher DC's wasn't satisfied with the +1000 to a stat item, then you might as well just chain gate some wishes and punpun yourself and be done with it.

I suppose if your casting stat was high enough you might want it just for the extra spells, nothing stops you from preparing more 9ths in your 10th after all, but at that point I think I'd rather dump WBL on a Staff, or Pearls of Power than spend precious feats.

[rweird]

This is very, very, wrong. Sorry. Actually, spells/day increases faster at epic levels than it does at nonepic levels, because of the availability of magic items. For example (note: there is no published WBL for epic games that I am aware of, though there is gold/encounter in the ELH. For my games, since the gold/encounter chart in the ELH gives a nearly perfect exponential regression, I usually just assume that the players keep 90% of their wealth).

At level 30, they have a WBL (using my approximation) of 4.7 million. Gold at epic levels buys both stat-boosting magic items (which gives you bonus spells for high ability scores), items which cast spells (everyone has UMD--get one rank in it, then get a magic item which gives a bonus to UMD, +30 to a skill from one item is available by level 20, so this is easy), and give spellcraft-boosting items to power your epic spells. Also, note that while WBL continues to increase exponentially, the cost of increasing numbers on magic items is quadratic, so the power level you can afford increases faster than any polynomial.

Continuing with the examples you gave, at level 144, WBL will be roughly 323 billion gold. If you put even 1/10th of that into a single item boosting your primary casting stat, you can afford an item with a +1798 enhancement bonus to an ability score. This gives an additional 224 bonus spells at every level you can cast. You can get even higher by mixing multiple types of modifiers. And then you still have 90% of your WBL to spend on scrolls/wands, wondrous items which give you a ton of immunities, and spellcraft bonuses for epic spells.
(In case you are wondering, the WBL for level 1000 is roughly 8.7*10^46. At that point, the power level is just silly. Then again, the power level was already rather silly at level 144, so...)

I should also probably add that giving a CR 144 monster "DR X/epic" is entirely pointless--almost everything at those levels is either a nondamaging spell effect or an epic weapon. Finally, when advancing a monster by adding HD, especially at epic levels, you should not use the core advancement rules to determine CR. The one and only way to determine if it is an appropriate threat is to playtest it against characters with similar abilities to your players (you could even test-run with your player's character sheets--the fight will likely go down quite differently when the real players are making different choices than you would have, so this doesn't really kill any suspense for your point of view).

True, though I mean if I am a Wizard 20/Archivist 10, and buy Int boosting stuff for Wizard 20, I'd do about as good as a Wizard 30 with appropriate boost, though I'd be able to cherrypick the best divine spells of 5th level or lower (though I'd have to work harder to overcome SR), at 144th level, a commoner with PC WBL would look very much like a wizard, just using scrolls and stuff instead of actual spells.

As for your custom item, ELH caps at +12 for those, if you want to continue, you could, though I have no clue what kind of DM would allow that.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this thing is intended to be fought by 144th level PCs, I'm not sure why he wants to make it, though my presumption is not Epic play, and the group isn't that optimized.

Epic doesn't balance, as much as require multiclassing to stay effective (and PCs never do that, right?), eventually it might balance, though by that time, the DM would have to spend hours making encounters. At 30th level, it is entirely possible to get an AC of like 200, while another has an AC of 80, same for attack rolls and saving throws.

[137beth]

Yea, WBL trumps all, which classes you take levels in isn't as important.

As for your custom item, ELH caps at +12 for those, if you want to continue, you could, though I have no clue what kind of DM would allow that.
Wha?!? No, it is pretty clear that there is no "cap" on epic magic items. They don't list infinity many values for items, just like they don't make an infinity long table for epic class advancement. What I described on this thread only uses the basic aspects of magic item cost determination--with more customization/rulings on spells, you can potentially do better, but I avoided discussing it specifically to avoid bringing up a debate on this thread about DM rulings.

Epic doesn't balance, as much as require multiclassing to stay effective (and PCs never do that, right?), eventually it might balance, though by that time, the DM would have to spend hours making encounters. At 30th level, it is entirely possible to get an AC of like 200, while another has an AC of 80, same for attack rolls and saving throws.
Levels 21-35 aren't really any less balanced than level 20. After that, balance actually starts to improve, as WBL begins to overshadow everything else.


Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this thing is intended to be fought by 144th level PCs, I'm not sure why he wants to make it, though my presumption is not Epic play, and the group isn't that optimized.
If it isn't being used in epic play, it probably shouldn't have stats.

[rweird]

I've mentioned it shouldn't be statted if he doesn't want it to be fought, though he wants to stat it anyways. Balance may improve, though the range of numbers becomes broader and broader (I've seen 50th levels with AC 62), it becomes more how much you can optimize than what class you are, true, though it still is how much you can optimize. Think that it all would work out if you want, with epic spellcasting allowed or whatnot, though I don't think that you'd be able to easily find 4 144th level PCs with any save, AC, or attack bonus within 30 points of one another (unless explicitly made to be so close), if someone spends there WBL on a +1500 Int item, while another on +750 Dex, Con, Strength, and a super magic weapon, the second guy would still have difficulty making the first guy's saves, though the second guy would have like 10 times the HP, an AC 200 higher, and have +800 to hit opposed to +200 of the wizard.