I want to be an always-cat Tibbit non-fighter, but can't be Psion. Is it possible?

[Jigokuro]

I love Tibbits (from dragon compendium) in general, but especially the fact that before stuff like true seeing it is super hard (impossible?) to tell their cat forms aren't just normal cats.
I really want to take advantage of that in a funny manner by using hard to notice/indirect magics/abilities to aid the party while feigning being just a cat for as long as possible (I'll hire a mook or something to act as my observed pc while communicating the cat's actions covertly.) There is a problem, however. The only DM I'll be playing under any time soon doesn't like the concept of psionics and has a blanket 'doesn't exist at all' houserule to all his games. He allows everything else ever printed, just not psions; weird, I know.
So my question is straight forward enough, but difficult: how can I be an effective background caster type while needing every ability to effectively be silent+still, and not psionic?

[Theoboldi]

There is the surrogate spellcasting feat from savage species, which allows you to do somatic and verbal components as a cat or any other nonhumanoid. The prerequisites are a nonhumanoid form and 13 wisdom, so you should be able to qualify for it easily.

[GnomeGninjas]

Note: A ninja is a pretty weak class so this idea won't work out to well unless your group doesn't optomize much.

Be a ninja, take the feats: Don't Mind Me (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c), Improved unarmed strike and multi weapon fighting and expanded ki pool. Use a mouth pick weapon, I think it is in savage species. You might want to take a few levels in SA fighter to increase damage and base attack.

What you do: Walk into bad guy's space, use ghost step, full attack with 2 claws, 1 unarmed, and 1 mouth pick. Since you are invisible all of those attacks will be sudden strikes.



Another idea is to be a spell caster and take surrogate spell casting(savage species) and eschew materials.

[Ranting Fool]

I love Tibbits (from dragon compendium) in general, but especially the fact that before stuff like true seeing it is super hard (impossible?) to tell their cat forms aren't just normal cats.
I really want to take advantage of that in a funny manner by using hard to notice/indirect magics/abilities to aid the party while feigning being just a cat for as long as possible (I'll hire a mook or something to act as my observed pc while communicating the cat's actions covertly.) There is a problem, however. The only DM I'll be playing under any time soon doesn't like the concept of psionics and has a blanket 'doesn't exist at all' houserule to all his games. He allows everything else ever printed, just not psions; weird, I know.
So my question is straight forward enough, but difficult: how can I be an effective background caster type while needing every ability to effectively be silent+still, and not psionic?

Warlock! :smallbiggrin: All warlock stuff is spell like abilities so Still + Silent (Though people may notice when big blasts of energy zap from you) But could be quite funny :smallbiggrin:

[Prophes0r]

The Psionics reaction is completely normal in my experience. Psionics was created in an era when they were publishing content at a ridiculous pace, and didn't care what mixed with what, everything was a player option, including magic.

In all my years playing I have only encountered 2 groups that ever played with psionics at all. One of those replaced all magic with psionics. The other played a Darksun Campaign.

[Xenogears]

Dragon Flame Adept. Fire Breathing Kitty. Need I say more? You keep your stats while being a cat so your breath weapon is just as good in either form, most of your good spells are either non-combat ones or 24 hour buffs so you can just buff up early and then stay in cat form all day.

[Prophes0r]

You could possibly work it as a druid. There are plenty of ways to let wild shaped druids cast normally using their new form. It would not on it's own grant you the ability to silent/still cast, but you would at least be casting with sounds and movements appropriate for a cat.

You may be able to pull off the flavor of an Urban Druid or something too. And If you want straight caster craziness, there's always Druid/Wizard/Arcane Heirophant.

I'm trying to find the reference, but I don't think that feat limited you to only casting DRUID spells in wild shape either.

[Xenogears]

You could possibly work it as a druid. There are plenty of ways to let wild shaped druids cast normally using their new form. It would not on it's own grant you the ability to silent/still cast, but you would at least be casting with sounds and movements appropriate for a cat.

You may be able to pull off the flavor of an Urban Druid or something too. And If you want straight caster craziness, there's always Druid/Wizard/Arcane Heirophant.

I'm trying to find the reference, but I don't think that feat limited you to only casting DRUID spells in wild shape either.

If you are thinking of Natural Spell it doesn't limit you to druid only spells but it does require you to have wild shape and only applies while wild-shaped so it wouldn't actually do anything (even for druid spells) for a Tibbit in her cat form (unless she was actually just using wild shape to turn into a cat).

It wouldn't be too unreasonable to ask your DM to see if you can get a special Tibbit-Form Natural Spell Feat though. It wouldn't be terribly OP.

[_flint_]

For one of the Iron Chefs I started working on a "black cat" themed character; a tibbit spellthief who later went into death delver(as per the contest rules). Not very strong, but a fun concept. An other option would be shadowcaster(tome of magic). I'm AFB ATM, but I'm pretty sure that you can use their pseudo casting while in cat form.

The most powerful build i would suggest would be a wizard(or other caster) using some trick to get free silent, still spells (incantatrix comes immediately to mind)

[Psyren]

Warlock may be a bad idea as Tibbits can't use somatic components in cat form.

Binder could work well - their abilities function just as effectively in cat or humanoid form. A Shadowcaster Tibbit with Still Mystery would work extremely well also, because Still Mystery auto-stills your entire repertoire rather than working like metamagic.

[_flint_]

Warlock may be a bad idea as Tibbits can't use somatic components in cat form.

Binder could work well - their abilities function just as effectively in cat or humanoid form. A Shadowcaster Tibbit with Still Mystery would work extremely well also, because Still Mystery auto-stills your entire repertoire rather than working like metamagic.

Great minds think alike:smallsmile:

Thought I should also point out that the cat form of the tibbit would actually synergise very well with the shadowcaster's stealth abilities

[Psyren]

You need Still Mystery to use mysteries in cat form - mysteries have somatic components otherwise. But unlike Still Spell, Still Mystery turns off somatic components for all your mysteries forever with no level adjustment or casting time increase. There's no reason not to take the feat.

[JeminiZero]

Also possible: Arcane Swordsage. Just don't abuse the DM's goodwill in letting you use that option.

[Ranting Fool]

Warlock may be a bad idea as Tibbits can't use somatic components in cat form.

Binder could work well - their abilities function just as effectively in cat or humanoid form. A Shadowcaster Tibbit with Still Mystery would work extremely well also, because Still Mystery auto-stills your entire repertoire rather than working like metamagic.

I thought ALL warlock abilities count as Spell-Like and so are both still and silent. Am I wrong in this and if so could you please point me to the rules on this.

[willpell]

@ Ranting Fool: It says explicitly in Complete Arcane that Eldritch Blast (and Invocations I think) are unlike most SLAs and do in fact require somatic components. You can ignore ASF from light armor with regard to this, so it's easy to forget, but it is meant to seem like spellcasting despite being much simpler, so you do have to wave your hands around funny.


In all my years playing I have only encountered 2 groups that ever played with psionics at all. One of those replaced all magic with psionics. The other played a Darksun Campaign.

Pity that. I for one have come to love Psionics as an alternative to magic in my vaguely-Greyhawk-derived campaign. I don't like the default fluff of Psionics, but it's an elegant set of mechanics which contrasts nicely with the bloat of arcane and divine spellcasting, creating two very distinct flavors.

[Vicerious]

I thought ALL warlock abilities count as Spell-Like and so are both still and silent. Am I wrong in this and if so could you please point me to the rules on this.

Invocations are spell-like abilities that explicitly have somatic components. It's in the description of Weapon and Armor Proficiency in the warlock's class entry in Complete Arcane, and referenced again in the description of Invocations in same.

[Darrin]

Warlock or Dragonfire Adept + Surrogate Spellcasting. Either one is full of win: Cat with LASERBEAM EYES, or Cat that BREATHES FIRE.

[Amnestic]

I thought ALL warlock abilities count as Spell-Like and so are both still and silent. Am I wrong in this and if so could you please point me to the rules on this.

Invocations (Warlocks+DFAs SLAs) have somatic components.


Warlock or Dragonfire Adept + Surrogate Spellcasting. Either one is full of win: Cat with LASERBEAM EYES, or Cat that BREATHES FIRE.

Surrogate Spellcasting doesn't apply to SLAs, the feat specifically calls out Spells rather than just Somatic Components.

[only1doug]

Invocations (Warlocks+DFAs SLAs) have somatic components.



Surrogate Spellcasting doesn't apply to SLAs, the feat specifically calls out Spells rather than just Somatic Components.

Quite easy to convince the GM to houserule that one in though, Its not going to be gamebreaking to allow a warlock to use a feat designed for a Tier 1 caster.

[Amnestic]

Quite easy to convince the GM to houserule that one in though, Its not going to be gamebreaking to allow a warlock to use a feat designed for a Tier 1 caster.

Oh absolutely, but recommendations like that need a caveat specifying :smalltongue:

[Darth Stabber]

If you are thinking of Natural Spell it doesn't limit you to druid only spells but it does require you to have wild shape and only applies while wild-shaped so it wouldn't actually do anything (even for druid spells) for a Tibbit in her cat form (unless she was actually just using wild shape to turn into a cat).

It wouldn't be too unreasonable to ask your DM to see if you can get a special Tibbit-Form Natural Spell Feat though. It wouldn't be terribly OP.

I have a tibbit dread necromancer in my current party, and I let her take natural spell to cast spells as a cat, and it hasn't really broken anything, just made her slightly harder to hit, but she has crappy AC anyway. There is now a rumor around one town of death's cat haunting the city at night. The only issue she has is that she can't grab her onyx when she's in cat form, and has to take humanoid form to animate dead.

[Darrin]

The only issue she has is that she can't grab her onyx when she's in cat form, and has to take humanoid form to animate dead.

Sounds like she needs a collar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c).

[Ranting Fool]

Invocations are spell-like abilities that explicitly have somatic components. It's in the description of Weapon and Armor Proficiency in the warlock's class entry in Complete Arcane, and referenced again in the description of Invocations in same.

Thank you very much for pointing this out.... when one of my players started a warlock I remember telling him he still had to "wave his hands about" but then he questioned me on it since they are SLA's and I couldn't for the life of me remember where I read it that warlocks can't blast things while tied up. Well I doubt he's going to like this much but it's hardly going to cripple his character.

[koboldish]

Surrogate spell, eshchew materials, take levels in sorcerer and rogue, then go into Spellwarp Sniper. Shoot lasers from the eyes of a kitten!

Note: I didn't come up with this idea, but at the moment, I cannot remember who did. They are wonderful, and thanks to them.

[Hirax]

Savage species has gloves of man. Though expensive, they allow you to use your paws as though they were fully functional hands. A wizard2/thug sneak attack fighter1/ranger2/unseen seer 10/abjurant champion5 gets BAB 16, 9th level spells, great skills, and sneak attack. Grab the gloves of man and a collar of umbral metamorphosis and you'll be the sneakiest, deadliest, ninja wizard cat ever.

[8wGremlin]

Have you looked in to being a Binder?
Yes you would have to bind a Vestige, probably in human form, but once done, might be good.

Or perhaps totemist or incarnate?

[Gildedragon]

Hah! Binder kitty sounds ridiculous and cool. Kitten with horns or goat legs is kinda hard to hide though

Edit: a scion of dantalion kitty is nightmare fuel I reckon. Useful with the read minds at will tho

[Eldest]

Surrogate spell, eshchew materials, take levels in sorcerer and rogue, then go into Spellwarp Sniper. Shoot lasers from the eyes of a kitten!

Note: I didn't come up with this idea, but at the moment, I cannot remember who did. They are wonderful, and thanks to them.

Add on Deceptive Spell from Cityscape, if you want, and you can have the spells seem like they're coming from your mook "owner."

[subject42]

Warlock may be a bad idea as Tibbits can't use somatic components in cat form.

Binder could work well - their abilities function just as effectively in cat or humanoid form. A Shadowcaster Tibbit with Still Mystery would work extremely well also, because Still Mystery auto-stills your entire repertoire rather than working like metamagic.

If you can get access to the Zceryll vestige, I would go 100% with Binder here. Hiding in bushes and silently spawning Chtuloid monsters from beyond the frozen stars has a nice, catlike feel to it.

[Valdor]

I actually once played a Marshal Tibbit. that that I was an actual pers an actual person. Of course the players knew but they kept the knowledge set aside. All they knew was they became more awesome when they have the cat around so the adopted it and took it with them on their travels. racking up your kills wit racking up your kills with it but it was a a fun thing to roleplay. I am sure that anyone could find a way to make this some what powerful when it comes to combat

[willpell]

If you can get access to the Zceryll vestige, I would go 100% with Binder here. Hiding in bushes and silently spawning Chtuloid monsters from beyond the frozen stars has a nice, catlike feel to it.

How is a cat drawing the summoning seal or speaking the vestige's name and title?

[Psyren]

Edit: a scion of dantalion kitty is nightmare fuel I reckon. Useful with the read minds at will tho

You need to be human (or half-human) to be a Scion; he's very humanocentric.

You can host Dantalion normally as a tibbit but you can't enter his PrC.


How is a cat drawing the summoning seal or speaking the vestige's name and title?

You only have to do that once per day - wake up before the party gets out of bed and handle your business in humanoid form. Or do it at midnight, cats are nocturnal anyway.

The cool thing about pact magic is how unrestricted it is. You don't need 8 hours of rest or a specific time of day - just something to draw with, a minute of free time, the ability to speak and a free spot in your soul.

[Thiyr]

How is a cat drawing the summoning seal or speaking the vestige's name and title?

Alternatively, if it has access to dirt, draw it on the ground with claws, and then speak its name in feline, what with Binding not requiring you to say it in a specific language. While _technically_ they can't do that in cat form due to how "a tibbit's cat form is unable to speak or use her paws to manipulate fine objects", i'd not say drawing in the dirt is fine object manipulation, and it's silly that normal cats can speak feline, tibbits in humanoid form can speak feline, but tibbits in cat form can't speak the language they are _born_ knowing, making it a very reasonable house ruling to let them speak only feline in cat form.

[Gildedragon]

How is a cat drawing the summoning seal or speaking the vestige's name and title?
Scritches on the dirt + pearl of speech...
or feline or while humanoid.


Psyren: As to the scion of dantalion. Yeah I know, nonetheless it'd be creepy as canola to have a cat with a whole bunch of torso faces.

[OracleofWuffing]

Hah! Binder kitty sounds ridiculous and cool. Kitten with horns or goat legs is kinda hard to hide though
Well, I think I know somebody that hasn't seen a kitty run and hide from THE TICKLE HANDS!

...

Rats, I made my cat run away and hide again. :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Signs aren't a problem for a tibbit:


You can hide a sign by mundane or magical means without penalty.

Their shapeshift makes them take the form of a housecat; as housecats typically don't have horns, extra eyes etc., the signs would be subsumed into their kitteh forms if they wished it.

[Darth Stabber]

Now I want to build a tibbit totemist, gear him up, and watch my player's minds explode when I describe it to them. Imagine a tiny cat like creature with claws and tentacles and wings and such.

[Psyren]

Now I want to build a tibbit totemist, gear him up, and watch my player's minds explode when I describe it to them. Imagine a tiny cat like creature with claws and tentacles and wings and such.

At Tiny though, and with their strength penalty you won't be doing a ton of damage with the melee ones. (I mean, you'll be impressive for a cat, but...) The exceptions are things like the breath weapons that don't care about size.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, three thoughts.

1: Bard with subsonics if you happen to be able to get the Dm to agree that the subsonics feat allows you to use badic music with out actually making any noise. From there, pick up melodic casting and prioritize CHA, and take two levels of seeker of the song and optimize inspire courage. Next, make an affiliation that let's you gain the benefits of Invisible spell with out increasing the casting time, If you can talk your DM into the ritual of blood form one of the eberron books (Forget which one.) being another benefit (refluffed, obviously.), then that's the Icing on the cake. Dip one level into Witch hunter, and your Cha all but replaces your Con, and you've got a spell casting and music focused bard, but no one in the PC's group will have any idea your doing anything! It feeds into "hey, I don't have a clue why, but were way more awesome when it's around, so let's keep it around!"


2: Make an artificer, focus on making neat stuff for the party. Bring along an NPC as planned, who you give wands and potions and scrolls too and who has max UMD ranks to use those sorts of things. And just always be around, so everyone assumes the NPC is the Artificer and the cat is just a pet he likes having around.

3: Make a Crusader with a level in Warblade and a level in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian. Now, Take Item Familiar on a Collar of Perpetual attendance. Make the collar double as an amulet of mighty fists. It gives you special property, dex to damage. From there, string another necklace of about 24 animated fine sized objects around your neck. Pick up the following feats. Power attack, stone power, Vital Recovery, Weapons Finesse, Karmatic Strike, Combat reflexes, Robilars Gambit, and if you can at all talk the DM into them, Confound the Big Folk and Underfoot combatant, along with gain martial stance, Giant Killing style. Use aid another actions form the animated objects to fuel power attack and stone power and the penalty for using multiple natural weapons with no feats to reduce the penalty. Use Warblade to acquire the best stuff form Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and Tiger Claw, and to house your mountain hammer maneuver (You don't need it readied though, which is good, since you have better combat maneuvers most of the time anyway.) and of course Pounce + a White Raven or devoted spirit charging maneuver is a great way to get on top of a target. Laugh as your borderline unkillable kitty shreds it's way through encounters.


Though I admit the last one's not subtle.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Radical opinion - Shadowcaster with the Still Mystery feat (since mysteries don't have material or verbal components to begin with, and the feat removes the somatic component without affecting the casting time or level).

Become - the beshadowed kitteh. Bonu points if you start taking Child of Night levels.

[DMVerdandi]

Now I want to build a tibbit totemist, gear him up, and watch my player's minds explode when I describe it to them. Imagine a tiny cat like creature with claws and tentacles and wings and such.

LOL. Incarnum Cat.

Player1: Hey kitty, you got yourself a little helmet! Daww... Wonder what your little kitty helmet is made out of.

Kitty: The souls of aborted babies.

:smallredface:

grumpy cat.