Bardsader advice

[Gwendol]

So, inspired by recent discussions I've decided to delve into the world of ToB more fully and have started fleshing out a Bardsader for an upcoming game.

Starting level unknown, but likely 3 or 5.
Most books approved, no dragon magazine. Eberron setting material questionable.

My thoughts:

Race: Human (Silverbrow, if going DFI)
Level progression: Bard 2/Crusader 1/Bard 4/Crusader X

Feats:
1: Melodic casting + DFI or something else: either going for EWP spiked chain and combat reflexes, or a more traditional melee, such as sword and board or THF.

3: Song of the white Raven

6: Extra song

9: Lingering song (if going DFI, otherwise extra maneuvers)

? Not sure I need to plan any further.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you can get it approved (it comes from an Eberron book, but the feat itself is not Eberron-specific at all), I'd delay taking Crusader until you've taken at least 3 levels of Bard, so you can take Song of the Heart. Song of the White Raven isn't all that useful at level 3, because it doesn't actually give you an IC boost until ECL 8, but Song of the Heart gives you an immediate boost, and can be qualified for as soon as you pick up Inspire Competence.

(Yes, the other aspect of Song of the White Raven - activating your music as a swift action - is nice. But it isn't actually as good as you'd think, because you'll probably want that swift action for Inspirational Boost.)

Personally, my favorite version is as follows:

DFI version, Bard 4/Crusader 5
1- Extra Music/Melodic Casting, DFI
3- Song of the Heart
6- Song of the White Raven
9- Lingering Song

Non-DFI version, Bard 4/Crusader 5
1- Extra Music, Melodic Casting
3- Song of the Heart
6- Song of the White Raven
9- Extra Granted Maneuver

You could just as easily do Bard 3/Crusader 6, as both will end up with the same IL at the end. I prefer Bard 4, because second level spells are fun, but YMMV.

[Gwendol]

I like glitterdust as much as the next guy so, yeah! Toying with the idea of continuing into abjurant champion at some point.

[Keld Denar]

Bard 4 gives you 4 music per day, which should be enough since you aren't twisting Dragonfire. It still keeps full BAB, minus the one for Bard 1.

You don't really need Song if the White Raven until 6, and waiting till 9 makes very little difference (+2 base at 9 vs at 8). I'd try to get Power Attack in there so you can dump some of the excess to hit you will get from IC.

You don't even need Melodic Casting on most Bardscader builds. The only 1st level spell you should be casting is Insp Boost right before you sing, and you only have 1 second level spell per day, assuming a Cha between 14 and 21. Heck, you don't even need Cha (or ranks in perform) much. A Cha of 12 is fine, and 3 ranks in Perform is about all you need. Focus your resources on other stats like Str and Con. You don't even need Concentration since your only spell really is swift, and you don't have any Diamond Mind maneuvers.

Basically, trim out the fat from your build. Bard is only there to get the most out if IC. Forget the rest. If you lean down the Bard, you will ultimately get more out of the build. You are a Crusader with IC, not a Bard.

If you do have at least a 14 Cha, Alter Self is probably your best bet. It has lots of out of combat uses, will last 40 minutes, and doesn't rely on a save. If you really want to Glitterdust people, get a wand. The DC will probably be similar, assuming you don't buy up Cha like I'm recommending.

[Piggy Knowles]

I agree with pretty much everything Keld said, except for this:

1. Extra Music is still useful for levels 1-3, and very handy if you plan on doing things like Healing Hymn + wands of CLW after combat. And it's essential if you're DFI focused. It could be skipped in a non-DFI build, but it's still going to come in handy.

2. Melodic Casting is still pretty clutch, IMO. The reason isn't because of your bardic casting (which Keld correctly points out is not really something you'll want to be doing much of in combat). The reason is because of using spell trigger items. Slapping a wand chamber onto a weapon is a nice way to expand your usefulness, and that option is more or less closed to you without Melodic Casting.

[Gwendol]

Thank you both!

Update: We start at lvl 6, and I'm building a dragon-themed character (half-dragon or dragonborn, or silverbrow, will strive to get dreadful wrath), a champion of Bahamut.

Dragonborn of Bahamut seems fitting: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1

[Keld Denar]

If you do Silverbrow, don't do Dragonborn. You lose your bonus human feat, and all you really gain is the aspect, since Silverbrow are already dragonblooded. If you do go Dragonborn, pick a race like Dwarf or Half-Orc or even Water Half-Orc that will gain some significant boost.

And Piggy, good call on the spell trigger items. I always forget that. A wand chamber with a wand of Whirling Blade would be ideal to give a Bardscader a nice ranged attack.

What is your party? If they are mostly PAing fighters, clerics, barbs, and wizards, normal IC will probably be plenty, and I'd skip DFI. IC, when channeled through 2:1 PA results in about 3 damage per plus per swing. This is weapon damage, so if the base strike is enough to overcome DR, this damage is pretty much irresistable. It also affects things like ranged touch attacks. DFI does nothing for those. If your team is mostly flurrying monks, TWFers, multiattacking druids and totemists, then the damage per strike from DFI is much more significant.

If you can, not taking DFI will give you two more feats to play with, since you won't need Extra Music really anymore, and normal IC is almost as good for some character types.

[Gwendol]

Yes, I noticed humans get a bit shortchanged for dragonborn. Right now I'm thinking half-drow or half-orc, though the cha penalty of the latter will hurt. I'm not sure dragonborn is worth it, but I like the fluff.

I'm definitely dropping DFI, and my feats up to level six are:
Power attack
Dreadful wrath (flaw)
Melodic casting
Word of creation

Bardic knack ACF
Healing hymn
Hymn of fortification

Any tips for maneuvers and stances? Can I pick and choose from different schools?

[Keld Denar]

I never liked Words. To much RP restrictions. You Getty a similar benefit at low levels with Song of the Heart.

Dreadful Wrath likes to charge or Full Attack, IIRC which doesn't really work with most maneuvers. It does work delightfully with White Raven charging maneuvers, though.

If you build Bard4/Crusader16 in that order, you do get to start play with 2nd level maneuvers at ECL5 or greater. I'd pick Foehammer and Mountain Hammer at that point. Blyth are similar, but both are good. Probably Martial Stance for your first stance. You don't NEED any White Raven stances for Song of the White Raven as long as you aren't planning on starting the song as a swift action, which you can't do with the Inspirational Boost spell anyway.

The Cha penalty for Half-Orc isn't that bad. If you put a 14 in Cha, you have a +1 after the penalty. That gives you a bonus 1st level spell (more Insp Boosts). That's all you really need. If you have extra points, or a great roll, a 16 there results in a 14 after the penalty which gives you a bonus 2nd level slot so you can cast 1 2nd level spell pet day, but you can get the same thing with a simple +2 Cha cloak.

Again, a Bardscader really doesn't need Cha like a normal Bard. It is tertiary behind Str and Con, and maybe behind Dex as well.

[DEMON]

Right now I'm thinking half-drow or half-orc, though the cha penalty of the latter will hurt.

Would Half-Drow allow for the Half-Elf Bard substitution level? Soothing Voice seems to me like a better option than Countersong.

[Gwendol]

I guess it would, will check that out.

[Gwendol]

Ok, so ended up with a silverbrow human bard 4/crusader 2

Feats:
PA, Cleave, Dragonfire inspiration, Dreadful Wrath, Song of the White Raven

I ended up not taking Song of the Heart, or Word of Creation due to game limitations.

Skill tricks:
Collector of stories
Nimble charge

ACF's:
Bardic knack
Healing hymn
Hymn of fortification
Spellbreaker song

Maneuvers and stances:
Martial spirit
Leading the charge

Leading the attack
Charging minotaur
Mountain hammer
Foe hammer
Battle leaders charge

Notable equipment:

Chain shirt +1
Dastana +1
Ring of protection +1
Badge of valor
Greatsword +1 with wandchamber for wand of whirling blade
anklet of translocation
handy haversack

WRT equipment, is there anything particularly useful considering the build? I have a few thousand left, and was planning on spending those on consumables (wands, etc).

[Keld Denar]

Cloak of Resistance +1 is almost always a wise purchase. Also, Healing Belt and a Wand of Lesser Vigor are great value purchases.

Can you change Leading the Attack to Crusader Strike? That would probably be more useful.

Another very useful feat for any Crusader is Extra Granted Maneuver. It cycles through your maneuvers a bit faster and allows you to use your higher level maneuvers more often.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, those wands are on the shortlist. Extra granted maneuver is on for level 9.

Edit: now that came out wrong. What I meant to say was thank you, I'll get the items. The wand looks good but I didn't know the spell was on the bard list? My current choice was a wand of CLW.

[Gwendol]

I need leading the attack for battle leaders charge. Also, granting allies +4 to the attack will always be good.