Warblade Tier

[MukkTB]

Recently I've seen a lot of people skeptical about the Warblade's tier. As far as I can tell, it has slightly less damage than a Barbarian but more in combat tricks, and a handful of out of combat tricks. Scent, IHS, and mountain hammer are the out of combat utility I can think of. People are claiming its tier 4 because of how few out of combat tricks it actually has. They disregard its flexibility in combat saying, "Combat is one thing." I don't totally disagree with them but if you compare against a pounce charge Barbarian it is definitely more flexible in combat.

I'm left thinking Warblade is a very weak tier 3, just barely holding on.

Ill run through JaronK's test as I can remember it.

Dragons Lair (w/ Traps)
The Warblade could sit tight while the party transverses the dungeon to the lair. Then he is as useful as a fighter or a Barbarian. However if he felt like being proactive he could mountain hammer his own way in to the lair. It would just take a bit of time to mine. Better hope the constant hammering doesn't alert the dragon AND piss it off.

Orc Army (Defend the Town)
With a handful of White Raven maneuvers and stances he could be a general or a commander in the towns army. He could lead some glorious incredible charges. I'm talking charges so good that they might decide the battle on their own. Besides that he is a capable fighter. He could train people before the battle and he could kill a handful of orcs in personal combat.

Find the Rebels (In hostile Territory)
He might have diplomacy or sense motive. Probably not both at the same time. Mostly this kind of mission is going to suck for him. I don't think he has a tool in his belt to deal with this.

I don't know. 66% is may not be a passing grade for the tier 3 exams. I wish I could go read the brilliant gameologist thread but its not up ATM. Maybe JaronK can answer my questions.

[rockdeworld]

I forget what it said for Warblade in the "why each class is in its tier" thread, but I remember the Warblade was not the tier 3 example used for those tests (it was the beguiler). Keep in mind, though, that JaronK specifically called out the Warblade as being high in tier 3 because it's so strong, only missing out on Tiers 1 and 2 because spells are more powerful than maneuvers.

You can argue that combat is 1 thing, provided you provide categories of things that combat does not solve. Consider the game in terms of objectives.

Traps are one thing. That falls under "moving forward to accomplish the objective when the path ahead doesn't allow you to." A warblade has the high HP to eat some traps, and decent saves with his maneuvers, but afaik he can't find and evade them, or summon something to set it off.

Gathering information is another thing. It falls under "find out how to accomplish your objective." A warblade has ranks in diplomacy that he can probably use to decent effect (even if Cha is his dump stat), although it's not the same as casting Scrying. Note that he gains Blindsense with a stance, which is effectively "I always make my spot check."

A warblade can do movement, or in other words "getting to the place where you complete your objective." He can have ranks in climb and swim, so not completely useless there.

And then we have combat, aka "getting the job done." This is where the warblade really does have many roles. In The Logic Ninja's Guide to Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002), he lists 10 categories of useful spells. 9 of them are used in combat. "Utility" is the other, and it encompasses spells for the other 3 categories I mentioned. In other words, the warblade can do more than one thing very well in combat, and isn't useless outside of it, therefore he's tier 3.

tl;dr: Show me a problem that can't be solved by combat, and I'll show you filthy, filthy lies. :smallbiggrin:

At least, that's how I understand it.

[Artillery]

Warblade is solidly Tier 3.
D12 Hitdice
Full BAB
Class features that scale with level
Has out of combat utility
Add int to reflex save and many other things

Warblades potency depends on party make up, in a mostly martial/melee party they really help the party power through things. When in other parties they are just a very good martial class.

Other things that make firmly tier 3 are White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge. You can break action economy starting at level 5. Iron Heart surge is standard action and immensely useful, get out of paralysis, fatigue, etc.

Being able to replace a saving throw with a concentration check is very powerful.

Warblade is very nice as a dip for other classes too.

Crusader and Swordsage are also Tier 3 as well. I have experience with both Swordsage and Warblade and they do their duty in combat very well, with maneuvers they are able to be effective even against DR or things with high AC.

[JeminiZero]

Iron Heart surge is standard action and immensely useful

It can even save your party from certain situations, where the entire group is affected by an area of effect with duration. E.g. entire party caught inside a solid fog? IHS to end the Fog.

Edit: Come to think of it, it is one of the few reliable ways to turn off an Anti-Magic Field.

[Andezzar]

Iron Heart surge is standard action and immensely useful, get out of paralysis, fatigue, etc.Unfortunately you cannot get out of paralysis with IHS. To initiate a maneuver you need to be able to move - which you aren't while paralyzed.

[Deophaun]

Yeah, IHS is broken in so many ways. It doesn't work for things it probably should work for (Nauseated? Too bad!) and works for things it definitely shouldn't (Gravity!)

One thing that I'm not sure if the Tier system takes into account is ease of multiclassing. Initiator classes are very friendly to dipping because you still get 1/2 your multiclassed levels added to your initiator level for determining both maneuver effects and the maximum maneuver level allowed. So, unlike other classes, it becomes more and more attractive to take a few levels in Warblade the higher level you are.

[Artillery]

Unfortunately you cannot get out of paralysis with IHS. To initiate a maneuver you need to be able to move - which you aren't while paralyzed.


Page 68 - Iron Heart Surge [Clarification]
Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the
following conditions each time it is initiated:
• Blinded, Confused, Dazzled, Deafened, Energy
Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Frightened, Immobilized, Knocked Down,
Nauseated, On Fire, Prone, Shaken, Sickened,
Slowed, Staggered, Turned.
• Any spell/power, spell-like/psi-like ability or
supernatural ability with a duration lasting longer than
one round, provided you are either being targeted by
the spell or are within the spell's radius.
• Any racial trait currently affecting the initiator (such as
Light Sensitivity or a vampire's weakness to sunlight).
The source of this detriment is not removed, only the
condition caused by the racial trait.
• Any extraordinary ability currently affecting the
initiator (such as the Frenzy ability of a Frenzied
Berserker, or the "Bleeding Wounds" inflicted by
certain creatures).
• Any ability hindering the initiator caused by an item
(alchemical, mundane, magical, or otherwise), such
as a caltrop wound.

Any effect not listed above is outside of Iron Heart Surge's
range of influence. These conditions cannot be removed, even
if their source is a spell's effect or similar ability (such as being
dazed by a psionic power, or being affected by a bard's
Fascinate ability).

Additionally, some effects can be reinstated at any point
during the rest of the round, after you have initiated Iron Heart
Surge (for example, a vampire's weakness to sunlight will
reinstate its effects at the end of the vampire's turn, unless he
uses his move action to exit the sunlight. The move action
would be possible immediately after initiating Iron Heart
Surge).

In case of Iron Heart Surge affecting a spell or other ability
that affects an area (such as the web spell), the entire effect is
ended for everyone involved when Iron Heart Surge resolves.


You can get out of paralysis from certain types of things. Most paralysis is an extraordinary effect. Iron Heart Surge requires no movement, it based purely off of "fighting spirit, dedication, and training".

[Amnestic]

You can get out of paralysis from certain types of things. Most paralysis is an extraordinary effect. Iron Heart Surge requires no movement, it based purely off of "fighting spirit, dedication, and training".

That looks like unofficial errata to me, since the actual ToB one on Wizard's site was released in 2008. Also it was mostly Complete Mage.

I mean, if you wanna use it for your group then that's fine of course, but I'm pretty sure it's not official.

[Darth_Versity]

Unfortunately that errata is a community based effort as WotC never released official errata fot Tome of Battle.

As a DM though, I use that errata in my games, even if its not official.

[Deophaun]

And that unofficial errata still screws it up. While it says it can remove the nauseated condition when initiated, it still doesn't allow you to initiate the maneuver while nauseated. If that were WotC official errata, it would be posted in the dysfunctional rules thread.

[Darth_Versity]

When the Errata needs Errata you know it's be produced by WotC! :smallwink:

[Larkas]

I don't know. 66% is may not be a passing grade for the tier 3 exams. I wish I could go read the brilliant gameologist thread but its not up ATM. Maybe JaronK can answer my questions.

This (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologist s.com%2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D4913.0&oq=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologists.com% 2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D4913.0&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) might be helpful.

[rockdeworld]

This (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologist s.com%2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D4913.0&oq=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologists.com% 2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D4913.0&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) might be helpful.
Hooray Google cache! Cookie for you Larkus.

[Andezzar]

You can get out of paralysis from certain types of things. Most paralysis is an extraordinary effect. Iron Heart Surge requires no movement, it based purely off of "fighting spirit, dedication, and training".First of all, what you quoted are not official errata and secondly while IHS would even without errata end paralysis, the maneuver cannot be initiated unless the initiator can move during paralysis:
To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move.Neither the rules for IHS nor the unofficial Errata change that.

One way how IHS could end paralysis is if the initiator was under the influence of a freedom of movement spell and was hit by a paralysis effect that had a longer duration than the FoM spell.

[TuggyNE]

When the Errata needs Errata you know it's be produced by WotC! :smallwink:

Better yet, the Errata to the Errata needed further corrections.

[JaronK]

Well, here's how I'd see that test:

1) Dragon's Lair. The Warblade's got enough diplomacy to ask someone in the nearby town (if there is one) about the dragon and maybe get useful information, but that's not a huge thing. On the way in, he's got his save replacing maneuvers to keep him from being screwed over by traps and the like, he can smash through obstacles, and in any combat where he can't just smack people around he can at least White Raven Tactics on whoever is being more useful. Once at the Dragon, he can buff the party a bit in addition to the normal fighting. Pretty useful the whole time, though some times more than others.

2) Orc Army: White Raven maneuvers let him make everyone around him rock, and he even has the diplomacy to help with morale and the like (see Heroes of Battles for that sort of thing). Very solid here.

3) Rebellion: Still has enough social skills to get by. Not great, but reasonably effective. And when fighting is needed, he'll of course be solid.

The whole time, he's more or less effective. Sometimes great, some times less so, but effective none the less. That's about right.

More importantly, those were just examples. Overall, it's rare for a Warblade to actually be completely unable to contribute.

JaronK

[Lanaya]

Yeah, IHS is broken in so many ways. It doesn't work for things it probably should work for (Nauseated? Too bad!) and works for things it definitely shouldn't (Gravity!)

I don't see how it works on gravity; gravity isn't a spell, effect or condition and doesn't have a duration, both of which are required for IHS.

[JaronK]

Technically, in D&D gravity is a planar trait that has an effect on the character, and the duration is generally permanent.

IHS is a bit silly.

JaronK

[Draz74]

Technically, in D&D gravity is a planar trait that has an effect on the character, and the duration is generally permanent.

In technical game terms, I think "having no expiration date set" is different from having "a duration of permanent." And I haven't ever seen Planar Traits described with a "Duration: " line in their descriptions. So I think the gravity loophole is a flop.

If I am incorrect, be so kind as to point out some effects that, by contrast, do not have a duration. There must be some, or else IHS wouldn't bother to include a clause about durations.

[Larkas]

I would argue that only something that can be dispellable can be considered as having a duration of "permanent", but then I'd be going by what I feel in my gut, not by RAW. Anyways, I think that gravity should be understood as "instantaneous", strange as it may be. Not stranger than all the other "instantaneous" effect that are effectively more permanent than "permanent" effects, but I digress.

[Keld Denar]

People forget about Warblade skills. 4+ Int with Int as a tertiary stat means that most Warblades will have about 6 points pet level, 7 if human. Their class list is decent too. Survival, social skills, and a few others, on top of good combat skills like Tumble and Balance.

[Andezzar]

I would argue that only something that can be dispellable can be considered as having a duration of "permanent", but then I'd be going by what I feel in my gut, not by RAW. Anyways, I think that gravity should be understood as "instantaneous", strange as it may be. Not stranger than all the other "instantaneous" effect that are effectively more permanent than "permanent" effects, but I digress.No, gravity is and should be permanent. You are permanently pulled downwards (or in another direction depending where you are) by gravity, but the floor may stop you from moving downwards some of the time.
I think you are talking about the "permanent" result of HP/ability damage. The thing is the damage is indeed instantaneous but the reduced HP/ability score may remain longer.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Extra senses (Scent/Blindsight), save-boosters, pseudo-flight, terrain destruction, and various ways of fighting, all built-in to the class. Tier 3.

[Sacrieur]

Over in the homebrew forums there's an argument that warblade is tier 4. I agree. So is swordsage and crusader.

Because combat versatility is not general versatility, and general versatility is a trait for tier 3.

But also that this isn't a bad thing. It's a good thing, so that warblade can fit in where he belongs with other pals just like him. And in a party, you don't need someone who can do everything: that's why people form parties.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Over in the homebrew forums there's an argument that warblade is tier 4. I agree. So is swordsage and crusader.

Because combat versatility is not general versatility, and general versatility is a trait for tier 3.

But also that this isn't a bad thing. It's a good thing, so that warblade can fit in where he belongs with other pals just like him. And in a party, you don't need someone who can do everything: that's why people form parties.

Tier 3 doesn't mean you're able to do everything. It means you're able to do a lot of things. Warblades can leap large chasms, gain indefinite-duration detection of invisible/stealthy people, tear through a wall, haggle, resist Enchantment spells, and still fight better than a fighter.

[Flickerdart]

Combat is not just one thing; there are different kinds of encounters. A barbarian is very good at encounters that give him a charge vector to the enemy, but his usefulness in other kinds of encounters drops dramatically. A warblade, on the other hand, is extremely flexible in combat due to his variety of maneuvers and extremely good refresh mechanic.

[Sacrieur]

Combat versatility is not general versatility.

If you got shifted to another plane, what could you do?

If you got trapped in a force cube, what could you do?

If you got hexed, what could you do?

If there are too many enemies for you to handle, what could you do?

--

A tier 3 class should be able to do something useful in most of those situations. A warblade, as I reckon, without extremely creativity, can't. Key word being useful.

He's really not as versatile as people are construing him to be. He's good at fighting and not much else.

[Flickerdart]

If you got shifted to another plane, what could you do?
Not a requirement for T3, most of them couldn't deal with this.



If you got trapped in a force cube, what could you do?

Martial Study: one of the teleport maneuvers, qualified for early due to full IL progression.



If you got hexed, what could you do?

IHS



If there are too many enemies for you to handle, what could you do?

That one Tiger Claw maneuver that lets you jump as a swift action is great for getting out of tough scrapes, but Mithral Tornado and similar maneuvers are a good start on the solution of "make there be few enough enemies that you can handle them".

[Larkas]

If you got shifted to another plane, what could you do?

As a Warblade? Not much. But then again, a Binder couldn't do much either. Nor could a Dread Necromancer. Or a Duskblade. Or a Psychic Warrior. Or a Wild Shape Variant Ranger. Not to mention Crusaders and Swordsages. Bards and Beguilers can escape the Plane of Shadows using Shadow Walk, and might be able to pull something off with UMD, but that's it. A Factotum can use Plane Shift, and as such is the only one from the list that could consistently do something about it. One day later, that is, and powers help it if it lands on an Inner Plane.

[Andezzar]

pseudo-flight,I must have missed it, how do you do it as a warblade?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I must have missed it, how do you do it as a warblade?

Leaping Dragon Stance. Combine with Sudden Leap if you need an extra boost. Easily enough to reach Flyby Attackers (the majority of flying monsters before you reach the point where you can get Wings of Flying).

[Devmaar]

Balance on Air stance helps here too

[Hiro Protagonest]

Balance on Air stance helps here too

1. That's Shadow Hand. The prerequisites means heavy feat investment.

2. Comes too late anyway.

[Starbuck_II]

Not a requirement for T3, most of them couldn't deal with this.


Flickdart, never forget IHS is your friend. (but don't IHS your friendship: that could end badly)

[nedz]

This (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologist s.com%2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D4913.0&oq=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologists.com% 2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D4913.0&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) might be helpful.Hooray Google cache! Cookie for you Larkus.

IEF404 now :smallmad:

[Larkas]

IEF404 now :smallmad:

Google Cache is a little temperamental. Try again tomorrow.

[Gray Mage]

Not a requirement for T3, most of them couldn't deal with this.


Plane shift offers a save, though, so Warblades could prevent it a bit easier with Moment of Perfect Mind.

[limejuicepowder]

Plane shift offers a save, though, so Warblades could prevent it a bit easier with Moment of Perfect Mind.

I would go so far as to call that a near auto-save, as long as it's available: most warblades are going to invest heavily in concentration, as diamond mind is probably the best overall discipline. By the time the warblade is facing a plane-shifting opponent, his concentration check should easily be +20 or more.

[Snowbluff]

I would go so far as to call that a near auto-save, as long as it's available: most warblades are going to invest heavily in concentration, as diamond mind is probably the best overall discipline. By the time the warblade is facing a plane-shifting opponent, his concentration check should easily be +20 or more.

Also, since it's a check and not a save, you can't get a failure on a Nat 1, right?

[Gray Mage]

Also, since it's a check and not a save, you can't get a failure on a Nat 1, right?

Yes, this is explicitly stated on the maneuver.

[Flickerdart]

Flickdart, never forget IHS is your friend. (but don't IHS your friendship: that could end badly)
Wouldn't IHSing friendship turn the plane into a dead magic zone?

[Larkas]

Wouldn't IHSing friendship turn the plane into a dead magic zone?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhlkhtpi2z1qaha6c.png

[Darth Stabber]

Wouldn't IHSing friendship turn the plane into a dead magic zone?

Your prize sir.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/list/000/117/963/5000Internets.jpg

[Snowbluff]

Your prize sir.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/list/000/117/963/5000Internets.jpg

Dude, do you even have that many Internets to give out? Or is this lie Bison-Dollars?

[toapat]

2) Orc Army: White Raven maneuvers let him make everyone around him rock, and he even has the diplomacy to help with morale and the like (see Heroes of Battles for that sort of thing). Very solid here

JaronK

you made a mistake. the Orc Army challenge is actually Helping them prepare, not helping them fight the army.

in that, the Warblade's skill list has to do the heavy lifting. Which contains Craft.

I dont know of a base class without craft or the option to take craft.

[Snowbluff]

you made a mistake. the Orc Army challenge is actually Helping them prepare, not helping them fight the army.

in that, the Warblade's skill list has to do the heavy lifting. Which contains Craft.

I dont know of a base class without craft or the option to take craft.

You are joking, right? Have you read the craft rules? I think just finding clubs will get you more done than trying to make masterwork weapons for people.

[toapat]

You are joking, right? Have you read the craft rules? I think just finding clubs will get you more done than trying to make masterwork weapons for people.

im just pointing out a mistake in JaronK's argument memory, which is specifically a pre-battle challenge.

Also, from what ive heard, ya, craft blows without fabricate to stamp Walls of Iron into equipment.

My class quick reference seems to show that they dont have search or spot on their skill list, so they even have problems locating branches suitable for improvising as clubs

[Snowbluff]

im just pointing out a mistake in JaronK's argument memory, which is specifically a pre-battle challenge.

Also, from what ive heard, ya, craft blows without fabricate to stamp Walls of Iron into equipment.

My class quick reference seems to show that they dont have search or spot on their skill list, so they even have problems locating branches suitable for improvising as clubs

Okay.

The only time I used craft was in a survival campaign. I made a shortbow. Took like 3 days.

[toapat]

did i sound like i was defending craft as being well balanced towards the challenge


because i was only pointing out that "Help the City prepare against an army of orcs" was not "Help a city fight against an army of orcs". In that context, the leadership maneuvers of White Raven discipline dont work because they dont last.

Technically the wording also screws bards and marshals over.

[TuggyNE]

because i was only pointing out that "Help the City prepare against an army of orcs" was not "Help a city fight against an army of orcs". In that context, the leadership maneuvers of White Raven discipline dont work because they dont last.

Technically the wording also screws bards and marshals over.

OK uh... arguing by exact wording with the guy who actually wrote the wording seems like an exercise in extreme futility. If he wants "help the city prepare" to include "help with the actual fighting too", well, why not?

[Darth Stabber]

you made a mistake. the Orc Army challenge is actually Helping them prepare, not helping them fight the army.

in that, the Warblade's skill list has to do the heavy lifting. Which contains Craft.

I dont know of a base class without craft or the option to take craft.

It's almost funny, you would think making martial scripts could help a little, but there is a caveat: warblade doesn't even qualify for scribe martial script without dipping crusader or swordsage.


Dude, do you even have that many Internets to give out? Or is this lie Bison-Dollars?

I took out a loan from the first national bank of anonymous... anonymously. Suckers.

[Sacrieur]

Alright, you guys got me, warblade is tier 3 if you can do it right (tier 4 if you don't know what you're doing, I suppose).

[nedz]

Alright, you guys got me, warblade is tier 3 if you can do it right (tier 4 if you don't know what you're doing, I suppose).

This is not a valid criteria. A classes tier does not depend upon the player's OP Fu. By your argument I've seen several Tier 5 Wizards.

[Draz74]

This is not a valid criteria. A classes tier does not depend upon the player's OP Fu. By your argument I've seen several Tier 5 Wizards.

The vernacular agrees with this use of Tiers, even if it wasn't their original intent. I've seen numerous people refer to Tier 5 Wizards, Tier 4 Paladins, etc.

[toapat]

well, why not?

because one such exception renders the entire tier system useless.

[JaronK]

How so? It seems to me that it renders one incorrect reading useless.

Yes, when I said "help prepare a town against an invasion" I included actually fighting the invasion. In fact, in the tier system FAQ, in the section on what a Fighter could do in that situation, it includes : "Situation 3: Again, his class doesn't help much, but at least he could be pretty useful during the main battle as a front line trooper of some sort. Hack up the enemy and rack up a body count."

So what I meant was essentially that the PCs had to deal with the invasion of Orcs, but that they had a full week to prepare and the town was there to help so they could create defenses, train soldiers, create minions, alter the terrain, and so on.

Here's the link if you needed the reference: it's in the FAQ section. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559

JaronK

[Starbuck_II]

The vernacular agrees with this use of Tiers, even if it wasn't their original intent. I've seen numerous people refer to Tier 5 Wizards, Tier 4 Paladins, etc.

How do you build a Tier 5 Wizard? Even a blaster is tier 4 because he still has potential to scribe scrolls or use wands they come across (and this is class feature unlike UMD).

[toapat]

How so? It seems to me that it renders one incorrect reading useless.


because that is not what the thing says. That is going out of the bounds of the defined challenges and if is taken, invalidates the entire system as a result of being special consideration, even if you gave it to the fighter also.

If you had meant for the challenge to be "Help a City Prepare and Fight off an army of Orcs", then edit the topics to say that, and make sure everyone is considered again for the challenge.


How do you build a Tier 5 Wizard? Even a blaster is tier 4 because he still has potential to scribe scrolls or use wands they come across (and this is class feature unlike UMD).

Only use limited utility spells like Detect <alignment> and other such less then useful divinations.

[Flickerdart]

It's not "prepare the city to fight the orcs and then leave". By aligning yourself with the city, only the most pedantic of readings would not count "wait until the orcs come and then murder a bunch" as helping the city, because hey, that also invalidates every single citizen.

[JaronK]

because that is not what the thing says. That is going out of the bounds of the defined challenges and if is taken, invalidates the entire system as a result of being special consideration, even if you gave it to the fighter also.

If you had meant for the challenge to be "Help a City Prepare and Fight off an army of Orcs", then edit the topics to say that, and make sure everyone is considered again for the challenge.

Look at every single example I gave in response to that scenario, and it should be pretty obvious what the scenario was (and yes, every single one of those examples included what the class provided during the fight). And realize you're basically trying to argue RAI with the writer, which is a bit bizarre.


How do you build a Tier 5 Wizard? Even a blaster is tier 4 because he still has potential to scribe scrolls or use wands they come across (and this is class feature unlike UMD).

It's not that the Wizard is T5, it's that it could be played as though he were T5. If the player decided he was a fire wizard because fire is cool and only used fireballs, lesser orbs of fire, and maybe summon monster spells that got fire creatures, and basically nothing else because his roleplay said he could do nothing else, he could easily play like a "I like big swords" Fighter who just uses a pair of large bastard swords via Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Monkey Grip.

JaronK

[Flickerdart]

"I like big swords"
I like big swords and I cannot lie
You other brothers can't deny
When a sword's carried in with an itty bitty grip
And a huge blade in yo' face
You get sprung!

[toapat]

It's not "prepare the city to fight the orcs and then leave". By aligning yourself with the city, only the most pedantic of readings would not count "wait until the orcs come and then murder a bunch" as helping the city, because hey, that also invalidates every single citizen.

no, it doesnt, the challenge is helping the city prepare, It isnt taking into account what you can do in combat. It is supposed to be a bard-centric challenge, which due to the fact that it is worded entirely as a challenge for pre-combat, that leaves the entire list of effective classes in the challenge as T1s, T2s, paladins, rangers, and anyone who can make armies.

Edit: You do realize that using RAI invalidates your system because it is a clear instance of bias?

[Flickerdart]

no, it doesnt, the challenge is helping the city prepare, It isnt taking into account what you can do in combat. It is supposed to be a bard-centric challenge, which due to the fact that it is worded entirely as a challenge for pre-combat, that leaves the entire list of effective classes in the challenge as T1s, T2s, paladins, rangers, and anyone who can make armies.
Considering that the writer disagrees with you, and everyone else who's read that sentence disagrees with you, and all of the examples disagree with you, I'm going to have to go ahead and just say that your interpretation is wrong.

[JaronK]

Toapat, I'm going to post the exact scenario as given by the tier system original post. Do you see any class where I *don't* mention what they could contribute during the fight, other than the Commoner whose class contributes nothing anyway?

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Okay, so, here we go.

Tier 6: A Commoner. Situation 1: If he's REALLY optimized, he could be a threat to the dragon, but a single attack from the dragon could take him out too. He can't really offer help getting to said dragon. He could fill up the entire cave with chickens, but that's probably not a good idea. Really, he's dead weight unless his build was perfectly optimized for this situation (see my Commoner charger build for an example). Situation 2: Well, without any stealth abilities or diplomacy, he's not too handy here, again unless he's been exactly optimized for this precise thing (such as through Martial Study to get Diplomacy). Really, again his class isn't going to help much here. Situation 3: Again, no help from his class, though the chicken thing might be amusing if you're creative.

Tier 5: A Fighter. Situation 1: If he's optimized for this sort of thing (a tripper might have trouble, though a charger would be handy if he could get off a clear shot, and an archer would likely work) he can be a threat during the main fight, but he's probably just about useless for sneaking down through the cave and avoiding any traps the dragon has set out without alerting said dragon. Most likely the party Rogue would want to hide him in a bag of holding or something. Once in the fight if he's optimized he'll be solid, but if not (if he's a traditional SAB build or a dual weilding monkey grip type) he's going to be a liability in the combat (though not as bad as the Commoner). Situation 2: As the commoner before, his class really won't help here. His class just doesn't provide any useful tools for the job. It's possible (but very unlikely) that he's optimized in a way that helps in this situation, just as with the Commoner. Situation 3: Again, his class doesn't help much, but at least he could be pretty useful during the main battle as a front line trooper of some sort. Hack up the enemy and rack up a body count.

Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

Tier 3: The Beguiler. Situation 1: Again, getting through the cave is easy, perhaps easier with spell support. And again, if he's really prepared in advance, Shivering Touch via UMD is a possibility. But he's also got spells that could be quite useful here depending on the situation, and if he's optimized heavily, this is going to be pretty easy... Shadowcraft Mage, perhaps? Or Earth Dreamer? Either way, he's got a lot of available options, though like the Rogue he's somewhat squishy (and that Dragon won't fall for many illusions with his Blindsense) so he still needs that party support. Situation 2: Again, with his skills he's all over this one, plus the added ability to cast spells like charm makes this one much easier, allowing him to make contacts in the city quickly while he figures out where this guy is. Situation 3: Like the Rogue, he can get strategic advantages and be all over the Diplomacy. He's not quite as good at assassinating people if he takes that route (though sneaking up invisible and then using a coup de gras with a scythe is pretty darn effective), but using illusions during the fight will create some serious chaos in his favor. A single illusion of a wall of fire can really disrupt enemy formations, for example.

Tier 2: The Sorcerer. Situation 1: It really depends on the Sorcerer's spell load out. If he's got Greater Floating Disk, Spectral Hand, and Shivering Touch, this one's going to be easy as pie, since he can just float down (and carry his party in the process) to avoid many traps, then nail the dragon in one shot from a distance. If he doesn't he'd need scrolls with the same issues that the UMD Rogue and Beguiler would need. If he's got Explosive Runes he could create a bomb that would take out the Dragon in one shot. If he's got Polymorph he could turn the party melee into a Hydra for extra damage. If he's got Alter Self he could turn himself into a Skulk to get down there sneakily. Certainly, it's possible that the Sorcerer could own this scenario... if he has the right spells known. That's always the hard part for a Sorcerer. Situation 2: Again, depends on the spell. Does he have divinations that will help him know who's part of the resistance and who's actually an evil spy for the Tyranical Govenerment? Does he have charm? Alter Self would help a ton here too for disguise purposes if he has it. Once again, the options exist that could totally make this easy, but he might not have those options. Runestaffs would help a bit, but not that much. Scrolls would help too, but that requires access to them and good long term preparation. Situation 3: Again, does he have Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone to make fortifications? Does he have Wall of Fire to disrupt the battlefield? How about Mind Rape and Love's Pain to kill off the enemy commanders without any ability to stop him? Does he have Blinding Glory on his spell list, or Shapechange, or Gate? Well, maybe. He's got the power, but if his spells known don't apply here he can't do much. So, maybe he dominates this one, maybe not.

Tier 1: The Wizard. Situation 1: Memorize Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch, and Spectral Hand. Maybe Alter Self too for stealth reasons. Kill dragon. Memorize Animate Dead too, because Dragons make great minions (seriously, there's special rules for using that spell on dragons). Sweet, you have a new horsie! Or, you know, maybe you Mind Rape/Love's Pain and kill the dragon before he even knows you exist, then float down and check it out. Or maybe you create a horde of the dead and send them in, triggering the traps with their bodies. Or do the haunt shift trick and waltz in with a hardness of around 80 and giggle. Perhaps you cast Genesis to create a flowing time plane and then sit and think about what to do for a year while only a day passes on the outside... and cast Explosive Runes every day during that year. I'm sure you can come up with something. It's really your call. Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there. Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer.

Based on that, do you really think the scenario was "prepare, but then leave"? Or was it "prepare for the battle, and fight in that battle"? Consider this a test of your ability to understand the intent of written information.

JaronK

[toapat]

Considering that the writer disagrees with you, and everyone else who's read that sentence disagrees with you, and all of the examples disagree with you, I'm going to have to go ahead and just say that your interpretation is wrong.

1: My interpretation is as straight as it is written, just because that wasnt the intention of JaronK doesnt change that

2: Because he is using his intentions, the system is shown to have a specific instance of bias, Bias in what should be an unbiased list, which invalidates the list entirely.


Based on that, do you really think the scenario was "prepare, but then leave"? Or was it "prepare for the battle, and fight in that battle"? Consider this a test of your ability to understand the intent of written information.

JaronK

My interpretation was: Do what you can do with class features to help them prepare against the horde of orcs. If that comes down to using Create Food and Water for a siege, or casting Persisted Haste on 10 people, it counts. However, Fighting itself is not helping the city prepare, It is helping the City FIGHT in the war.

Interstingly, i actually found a hole in your logic: Chicken Infested lets you make cheap rations for the city

[Flickerdart]

1: My interpretation is as straight as it is written, just because that wasnt the intention of JaronK doesnt change that
Nope.



2: Because he is using his intentions, the system is shown to have a specific instance of bias, Bias in what should be an unbiased list, which invalidates the list entirely.
Doesn't follow from 1, even if 1 were true.

[lsfreak]

I don't see how it works on gravity; gravity isn't a spell, effect or condition and doesn't have a duration, both of which are required for IHS.

The big loophole with IHS is that, iirc, "effect" isn't really described anywhere. Spells and conditions are defined all over the place, but effect is nowhere else (or at least, nowhere consistently) a technical word like this. And pretty much anything can be described as an effect. You're right that it takes a little finagling to get around the duration thing, but any world where material reality started, rather than permanently existed, arguably has a duration.

[Story]

How do you build a Tier 5 Wizard? Even a blaster is tier 4 because he still has potential to scribe scrolls or use wands they come across (and this is class feature unlike UMD).

Technically, you could swap out Scribe Scroll for something silly like Improved Shield Bash if you wanted to. Of course new players wouldn't know about options like that.



It's not that the Wizard is T5, it's that it could be played as though he were T5. If the player decided he was a fire wizard because fire is cool and only used fireballs, lesser orbs of fire, and maybe summon monster spells that got fire creatures, and basically nothing else because his roleplay said he could do nothing else, he could easily play like a "I like big swords" Fighter who just uses a pair of large bastard swords via Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Monkey Grip.

Is this by any chance a reference to Another Gaming Comic?

[Flickerdart]

The big loophole with IHS is that, iirc, "effect" isn't really described anywhere. Spells and conditions are defined all over the place, but effect is nowhere else (or at least, nowhere consistently) a technical word like this. And pretty much anything can be described as an effect. You're right that it takes a little finagling to get around the duration thing, but any world where material reality started, rather than permanently existed, arguably has a duration.
To be especially bulletproof, the IHS is used by a race with an environmental weakness. So a Drow Warblade is quantifiably affected by the sun (it dazzles him, which is a condition) and so can end the sun using IHS.

[nedz]

The vernacular agrees with this use of Tiers, even if it wasn't their original intent. I've seen numerous people refer to Tier 5 Wizards, Tier 4 Paladins, etc.

I've used the phrase in a number of threads in the past. It was always meant ironically, with perhaps a shade of exaggeration for rhetorical effect.


Is this by any chance a reference to Another Gaming Comic?
Nope — someone I have played with.


It's not that the Wizard is T5, it's that it could be played as though he were T5. If the player decided he was a fire wizard because fire is cool and only used fireballs, lesser orbs of fire, and maybe summon monster spells that got fire creatures, and basically nothing else because his roleplay said he could do nothing else, he could easily play like a "I like big swords" Fighter who just uses a pair of large bastard swords via Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Monkey Grip.
JaronK
Who was not even that varied.
Magic Missile, Fireball and Lightning Bolt were his spells — even at level 14. He did once cast Gaseous Form — which got him a round of applause.:smallsigh:
Now he may have prepared other spells, we just never saw them.

[Andezzar]

To be especially bulletproof, the IHS is used by a race with an environmental weakness. So a Drow Warblade is quantifiably affected by the sun (it dazzles him, which is a condition) and so can end the sun using IHS.No, he cannot end the sun. He can only end the effect the sun has on him and all other drow.

[Flickerdart]

No, he cannot end the sun. He can only end the effect the sun has on him and all other drow.
"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." If sunlight is considered to be an effect (which is causing the dazzled condition), then it ends. Not just for the people it's affecting adversely, but for everyone.

[Artillery]

"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately." If sunlight is considered to be an effect (which is causing the dazzled condition), then it ends. Not just for the people it's affecting adversely, but for everyone.

PLEASE, please... Lets not get into this talk. Then we will get into Planar effects like gravity. Or if it can be used against paralysis because Iron Heart Surge is a purely mental action, but maneuver's require being able to move etc.

As always, rule 0, its up to DM discretion with IHS. Go through and ask through various effects if he will allow it to end them.

[Flickerdart]

PLEASE, please... Lets not get into this talk. Then we will get into Planar effects like gravity. Or if it can be used against paralysis because Iron Heart Surge is a purely mental action, but maneuver's require being able to move etc.

As always, rule 0, its up to DM discretion with IHS. Go through and ask through various effects if he will allow it to end them.
In case you hadn't noticed, we already glossed over gravity. Please don't try to police discussions.