Making Dragon hoards

[Dark_Ansem]

I am reading Draconomicon but I do not understand the calculations used for making the hoards: alone double and triple standard confuse me, let alone rolling. can someone explain it to me?

[Vaz]

Double/Triple Standard means that you cross-reference the value of treasure gained for a typical battle of that challenge rating, and then multiply that value by 3.

The Dragon's Hoards in Draconomicon represent what one might actually contain; rather than just being in pure Gold Coins, that value might include Magical Weapons (insert Weapon, with Magical Enchantments, remove value of Weapon+Enchantments from the running total of the hoard).

Some Dragon's appreciate beauty; so have beautiful things like Prom Dresses, and Handbags, and whatnot for when they slip into Human Form for a night about Town ready to make some Half-Dragon Babies. These may not be "useful" per se, for you (What kind of ultraman barbarian dragonmurdering childkiller wears a dress?), they add up to the Gold Value of the hoard. Other's might have Paintings, or Statues, or things too heavy to carry off, but that's essentially just flavour text.

If you're quite new to it, just work out the value of the total hoard, assume you were able to sell it at market value, and then got the full amount of gold, from which you can request purchase of weapons, armour, staffs, trinkets, and girls.

[Sudain]

Double and triple standard treasure: roll for treasure. Then do it again. And again. Then sum all of these treasures. You have a triple treasure horde.

there is a sheet in the dmg for rolling treasure. page 50ish IIRC.

[Starbuck_II]

I am reading Draconomicon but I do not understand the calculations used for making the hoards: alone double and triple standard confuse me, let alone rolling. can someone explain it to me?

Double means you roll twice instead of once of the treasure chart.

"Every monster has a treasure rating (indicating how much treasure it has, although for some creatures the rating is “None”). The tables found below are used to determine the specifics. After referencing the level and kind of treasure (coins, goods, items) found in the creature’s description, roll on the appropriate row and columns of the proper table.

When generating an encounter dealing with monsters away from their lair, remember that a creature only takes what it can easily carry with it. In the case of a creature that cannot use treasure, that generally means nothing. The monster safeguards or hides its treasure as well as it can, but it leaves it behind when outside the lair."

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Treasure

Pretend it is 4th level for example:
So around 1200 gp on average (double means average should be 2400 gp worth):
Anyway, roll 3 d100's (money, gems/art, goods/magic): double means roll twice.
Say you rolled 22, 45, and 98 (2400 sp, no gems, 1 minor magic item)

Since we rolled minor we have to look in DMG pg 216 since this isn't OGL:
We roll a 99 (wonderous): we roll a 65 so Gloves of Dex +2

Total treasure: 2400 sp, no gems, Gloves of Dex +2.
We roll again since this is a dragon:
40, 22, 45 (3600 sp, no gems, 1d4 mundanes)
we rolled (I rolled 3 )mundanes so we roll there:
1) 33 armor so we roll there 60 so full plate
2) 60 weapon, 30 masterwork melee (we'd roll then on which weapon but I'm going to go with falchion)
3) 10 alchemy, 76 tanglefoot bags (3)

So in the horde (double standard) would be:
6000 sp, 3 tanglefot bags, full plate, masterwork falchion, and Gloves of Dex +2.

Does this fit average? 600 gp, 1500 full plate, 300+ for weapon, 150 bags, 4000 gloves = 6600 gp.

Well above average but that is okay because dragon.


Now the Dragomicon version has its own charts to roll on, but the idea is the same.

[Zanthy1]

(What kind of ultraman barbarian dragonmurdering childkiller wears a dress?)

I see a new build in the making...

[Vaz]

Keep a weather-eye on the Iron Chef...

[Dark_Ansem]

so, let me se if I understand.
the first roll is to determine the actual total gold value of the hoard/treasure. Triple/Double Standard means that I roll the dice twice on the same CR row of gold?

[Starbuck_II]

so, let me se if I understand.
the first roll is to determine the actual total gold value of the hoard/treasure. Triple/Double Standard means that I roll the dice twice on the same CR row of gold?
Average value not total.
No, you rolling twice or three times this if you double or triple.

I rolled twice because I forgot most dragons are triple standard.

[Gavinfoxx]

Some Dragon's appreciate beauty; so have beautiful things like Prom Dresses, and Handbags, and whatnot for when they slip into Human Form for a night about Town ready to make some Half-Dragon Babies.

But if the implication is that the dragon is female, that means she wants to actually get impregnated...? I thought that most dragons are supposed to not want to rear biped young?

[Dark_Ansem]

I know, Red and Gold dragons have double standard, like the epic dragons. Shadow Dragon instead has a triple standard.

[Urpriest]

I know, Red and Gold dragons have double standard, like the epic dragons. Shadow Dragon instead has a triple standard.


Red Dragon click to see monster
Type: Dragon (Fire)
Environment: Warm mountains
Organization: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary or clutch (2-5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 4; very young 5; young 7; juvenile 10; young adult 13; adult 15; mature adult 18; old 20; very old 21; ancient 23; wyrm 24; great wyrm 26
Treasure: Triple standard

Not sure how you got that impression.

[Vaz]

But if the implication is that the dragon is female, that means she wants to actually get impregnated...? I thought that most dragons are supposed to not want to rear biped young?

Shapechange works on the plumbing to, does it not? That, or the Dragon gets a blue lighted.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, but the Alternate Forms that some dragons have tends to keep the gender, I believe. And most dragons don't have Shapechange, especially not at the ages they might want to be sowing wild oats...

[Vaz]

Fair point. Still, lots of gold and a charisma synergy go well with Diplomancy Cheese.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I wouldn't mind a plot which has one of the 'likes to socialize with normal people' steel/brass/song/mercury (one of the four), male (in this case, or who has a male Alternate Form, which should be pretty rare...) dragons going to a town or city somewhere and saying something like, 'I wish to live a life with other people around, and to be part of a society. I don't want to hide who and what I am. I will protect your village from threats beyond your capability, and bless any of your daughters who you wish to be brides, with supernaturally and physically powerful children, as members of my race in this area are exceedingly rare.'

And then after a few centuries, there is a very very prosperous town with lots of people with varying amounts of dragon blood in them, and everyone refers to him as 'grandfather'...

[Vaz]

Apart from Prosperous, sounds a bit like the village next but one where I was from.

[Gavinfoxx]

Apart from Prosperous, sounds a bit like the village next but one where I was from.

What? That didnt make sense...

[Vaz]

I was suggesting that a village near me IRL is all interelated. They are all "cousin this cousin that" and never seem to widen the genepool.

[Dark_Ansem]

my bad, I read it wrong.

[Dark_Ansem]

can someone post a sample Red Dragon Great Wyrm hoard including the calculations used?

[Dark_Ansem]

no sample one for "standard" great wyrm red dragon?

[Vaz]

A Great Wyrm Red Dragon has CR 26. On page 286 of the Draconomicon, it gives you an example CR26 Dragons Horde, valued at 423K GP, individually listed, with GOld and Platinum Pieces in addition to the non-monetary wealth which includes everything from pottery bowls to magical equipment and scrolls etc.

To make your own, you don't need to use the exact copy there, but making a list of items worth, say, 2/3rds of the total value, and then saying the rest is in money is a better way of handling the goods reward rather than saying "you have 400K Gold to spend between you, go to town". If they each have a 60K Item you have decided to give them between a party of 5, and 20K gold to spend, it becomes less broken than them going to town with 80K to purchase Power Build #324 they've found written on the internet.

While I'm sure people don't mind helping you make one, when all the information is there already if you look, and is fairly self explanatory if you take the time to read it, not many people enjoy someone asking "do this for me". If you explain exactly where you're going wrong, and what you're struggling with, then that makes it easier to help; it's like someone coming in and asking "I can't do it, you do this for me".

[Dark_Ansem]

how do I increase the total value of the hoard accordingly to higher CR?

[Vaz]

By looking at the level up, and the level down. Find out the increase percentage, and increase by that.

For example, if CR 26 is say 100K, CR 25 is 90K and CR 27 is 110K, then the increase is 10K each time, so CR 28 should be 120K.

If CR25 was 50K, CR 26 was 100K and CR 27 was 200K, it's doubling, so CR28 would be 400K.

Just work out the difference increase, and you're sorted.

[Dark_Ansem]

it does not follow a ration IMHO. this is the scale of the higher challenge ratings (each value is added in k values to the previous total).
42 (cr 26-27)
39 (cr 25-26)
36 (cr 24-25)
30 (cr 23-24)
30 (cr 22-23)
27 (cr 21-22)
21 (cr 20-21)

[Vaz]

So, 20-27 is 8 different challenge ratings. Give or take a few, outliers, that's a rough increase of around twice the amount from 240-465 (15k difference, whatever).

Each step up in CR therefore roughly equates to a 30K step up between the next level. This is backed up in the numbers you've given, it hovers around 3 as the median step up in between each level. At lower than CR20, the system breaks down slightly, as that same equation results in 8K step ups at each level, but an 8K reward for a CR1 monster would be not right, so it's more curved and quadratic.

CR28 is 8 steps up from CR20, so 8*30 = 240K. 240K + 240K = 480K.

You wanted something along the lines of an advanced CR120 Wyrm in your other thread I think? So that would be 100 steps up from CR20, so 100*30 = 3M+ 240K = ~3.25M. The numbers aren't too accurate because 1) every dragon is different, and 2) you're the DM, you can slightly fudge it; perhaps roll a D20, if it the value is odd, subtract, if it's even add it (in Kgp - so rolling a 15 would subtract 15Kgp from total, and rolling a 10 would add 10K to the total).

Short and sweet.

[Dark_Ansem]

thanks :)
the 144 dragon is an Epic Dragon, time Dragon. the others are a Red/Shadow dragon and a Gold one. how would you adjust it.

[Dark_Ansem]

or perhaps the criteria depends, rather than dragon hp, from challenge ratings?

[Shining Wrath]

When determining treasure for monsters there are random tables used to generate said treasures. There are tables for various categories of treasure, and then sub-tables depending on what you roll on the main tables.

Ignore the subtables for a moment. The main tables determine "Does the party get something in that category", and then the subtables determine what that something might be.

For a dragon, roll on each main table (the "category" tables) twice or thrice. Every time the main table indicates a something, follow ordinary rules to determine what the something is. Since you'll be rolling more often to see if there is something, the odds are much better that you'll generate several somethings.

[Dark_Ansem]

yeah but I'm having difficulties, in fact, in determining the relationship between HD/CR and total hoard. not to mention, when it says "triple/quadruple" standard.

[Shining Wrath]

yeah but I'm having difficulties, in fact, in determining the relationship between HD/CR and total hoard. not to mention, when it says "triple/quadruple" standard.

That's in the DMG. It's also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm#standard)

The encounter level is the CR of the (single) monster. If you're throwing multiple monsters at them, try this (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) to determine total CR.

For example, a party of 5 with ECL=7 against one monster of CL 7 with 5 CL 3 minions is a very difficult encounter, effective CL 9. The standard treasure for CL 9 is 4500 GP, divided among the various categories. If the CL 7 beastie is a dragon you will be giving out probably 9000 or 13500 GP worth of goodies, with great emphasis on the word probably, because if you roll one way the party gets nada, and if you roll the other way they can walk off with 360 PP, 12 pieces of art worth 12000 GP each, and 3 +1 Holy Bastard Swords.

[Dark_Ansem]

thanks. can you identify a progression, for higher CR/EL?

of course, if it says "double, triple, or quadruple standard" I just have to multiply the value by 2, 3, 4, right?