Help with Swordsage THW Build

[bendking]

So, apperantly the world me and my friends wanted to do isn't working out, and I have to make a new character.. the bright side is I found my love - The Swordsage.
Now, I don't realy want to go TWF since it sounds kind of tedious, (though a good build and a selling point would be nice) and so I thought of a longsword/bastards sword perhaps.
Now, I looked at manuevers and stances and the things I like the most are Diamond Mind, Desert Wind, and Shadow Hand.
But unfortunately, I have no idea how to build this class Feature/Stat wise, and it'll be very helpful if someone could throw in a build or suggesstions, take in mind im not extremely experienced in the world of D&D so I might not understand some expressions.
Thanks ahead.

[RFLS]

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me, pick me! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259783)

I would highly recommend against THF with a Swordsage; Warblade or Crusader would be a more solid choice. Is there a particular reason you want Swordsage?

[Xaotiq1]

A few questions:

What stat generation method are you using?
What books are allowed?
What race are you considering?
Does the "THW" in the thread title mean, "Two Handed Weapon"?
Does your DM allow homebrew?
What role are you trying to fill?/What are the other players building?


Answering these questions will help everyone assist you.

[Darrin]

So, apperantly the world me and my friends wanted to do isn't working out, and I have to make a new character.. the bright side is I found my love - The Swordsage.
Now, I don't realy want to go TWF since it sounds kind of tedious, (though a good build and a selling point would be nice) and so I thought of a longsword/bastards sword perhaps.


Most TWF builds are a little too feat-starved to muck around with bastard swords. You're probably better off with twin shortswords. If you want something exotic, Spiked Chain + Armor Spikes/Unarmed Strike has some possibilities, but you'll probably need to dip into something else for some additional feats.

For maneuvers, TWF requires a full-round attack, so it can't be combined with most standard-action strikes. You'll want to focus on boosts and counters with just a couple of "utility" strikes.

Typical TWF Swordsage 20:

Race: Human, Azurin, or Strongheart Halfing
1) Swordsage 1. Feat: TWF. Bonus: Shadow Blade.
2) Swordsage 2.
3) Swordsage 3. Feat: Adaptive Style.
4) Swordsage 4.
5) Swordsage 5.
6) Swordsage 6. Feat: Craven.
7) Swordsage 7.
8) Swordsage 8.
9) Swordsage 9. Feat: Improved TWF.
10) Swordsage 10.
11) Swordsage 11.
12) Swordsage 12. Feat: Staggering Strike.
13) Swordsage 13.
14) Swordsage 14.
15) Swordsage 15. Greater TWF.
16) Swordsage 16.
17) Swordsage 17.
18) Swordsage 18. Feat: Martial Study/Stance.
19) Swordsage 19.
20) Swordsage 20.

[RFLS]

-snip-

He specifically said he wanted to go THF, not TWF.

[gallagher]

Well if you are doing THF, I highly suggest that you pretend that your SS is a rogue, and get a spike chain. You are already hearing arguments for TWF, but that requires a bunch of feats. Spike chain only requires one feat, has reach, can attack right in front of you, can be finessed and is generally a pretty boss weapon

[RFLS]

Well if you are doing THF, I highly suggest that you pretend that your SS is a rogue, and get a spike chain. You are already hearing arguments for TWF, but that requires a bunch of feats. Spike chain only requires one feat, has reach, can attack right in front of you, can be finessed and is generally a pretty boss weapon

Alternatively, if you don't like spiked chains, or your group has nerfed/banned them, I would recommend guisarme+spiked gauntlet. Still has reach and trip, but doesn't feel as...cheesy.

[gallagher]

Alternatively, if you don't like spiked chains, or your group has nerfed/banned them, I would recommend guisarme+spiked gauntlet. Still has reach and trip, but doesn't feel as...cheesy.

On a rogue-like character, I think that a spike chain is has way less cheese in it than a guisarme and spiked gauntlet, but thats just like, my opinion, man

[andromax]

If you want to go 2H with a sword sage.. I recommend this little trick;

Get a Sunsword (It's the base item of the Sun Blade found in the DMG, it's 3k gp instead of 50k gp). The Sunsword can be found in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. It is a bastard sword, but can be wielded 'as a short sword.' Ordinarily this means that you jus wouldn't have to pay the EWP: Bastard sword feat. But to a Swordsage... it means Shadow Hand with a bastard sword. Now you can power attack and 2H and still get add your dex to damage. Pretty nifty.

I suppose that you could already do that with the cheese chain.. but Bastard swords are cooler.

[Morbis Meh]

Your best build for a two handed SS is as follows:

Human (or any other race that's a derivative of it) or A strongheart halfling or A whispergnome (if you're allowed flaws)

SS1:(Shadowblade) Bonus/Flaw (EWP: Spiked Chain)
SS3: (Weapon Finesse)
6: adaptive style or gloom razor


That's all you really need the rest you can choose what you like; however, remember that shadow blade ADDS dex to damage not switch it out for strength so you need a modifier of at least 0 (unless your DM states otherwise). You can trip via setting sun manuevers with your chain and be allowed to use your dex instead of strength thus making it viable to trip.

[RFLS]

On a rogue-like character, I think that a spike chain is has way less cheese in it than a guisarme and spiked gauntlet, but thats just like, my opinion, man

Spiked Chain can be used with Weapon Finesse and Power Attack, and can be used at 5 or 10 feet.
Guisarme can only be used at 10 feet, cannot be finessed, and you require a second weapon to pull it off, meaning you have to split your enhancement bonuses or stay out of close range.

Your opinion would seem to be wrong.

[bendking]

A few questions:

What stat generation method are you using?
What books are allowed?
What race are you considering?
Does the "THW" in the thread title mean, "Two Handed Weapon"?
Does your DM allow homebrew?
What role are you trying to fill?/What are the other players building?


Answering these questions will help everyone assist you.

Read alot of you comments, I appreciate the help, I think I might go spiked chain as a few suggested.
Onto the quoted message:
Stat generation of 32, no dice.
Basicaly all books but it's better not to have things that are far away from the basics or not very known.
Im considering a human.
THW Does indeed stand for "Two Handed Weapon"
DM Does not allow homebrew.
Other players are building a caster druid, support cleric, and third is uknown (will propably be a warrior type)
Im trying to fill a role of doing alot of damage, supporting the tank, while being stealthy (hopefuly)

[BowStreetRunner]

Something to keep in mind with regard to the Spiked Chain - it has a split personality.

On the one hand it is a two-handed trip weapon, which begs you to go high STR and take advantage of feats like Power Attack. On the other hand it is a finesse weapon, which begs you to go high DEX and take advantage of feats like Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade. In either case, it is a reach weapon that can also be used adjacent and it gives a bonus to Disarm.

My recommendation is to pick one (STR or DEX) and go with that, ignoring the temptation to try to do everything with it.

[Artillery]

Okay so go to feats based off the thread.

Adaptive Style
EWP: Spiked Chain
Weapon Finesse
Shadow Blade

Seeing as all of the dex you will have, combined with a reach weapon Combat Reflexes would be good. But you are still using a 2-handed weapon so power attack has great returns for damage.

What level are you starting off at?

[Darrin]

He specifically said he wanted to go THF, not TWF.

Yes, so I noticed.



Get a Sunsword (It's the base item of the Sun Blade found in the DMG, it's 3k gp instead of 50k gp). The Sunsword can be found in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. It is a bastard sword, but can be wielded 'as a short sword.'

Not quite. By strict RAW, you are only considered proficient with the lesser/unawakened sunsword if you are proficient with either the bastard sword or short sword. It's otherwise treated exactly as a +1 bastard sword. Only the really expensive 50K Legacy or DMG version has language that allows it to be wielded "as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use".



SS1:(Shadowblade) Bonus/Flaw (EWP: Spiked Chain)
SS3: (Weapon Finesse)
6: adaptive style or gloom razor


As with Weapon Finesse, EWP requires +1 BAB. Swordsage 1 doesn't qualify.

Anyway, retooled for THFing with Spiked Chain:

Race: Human, Azurin, or Strongheart Halfing
1) Swordsage 1. Feat: Adaptive Style. Bonus: Shadow Blade.
2) Swordsage 2.
3) Swordsage 3. Feat: EWP Spiked Chain.

After that... the only feats I can come up with are all depressingly PHBish: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, etc. A Knock-Down combo would probably work well (if you use the SRD version), but it's much easier to get to by dipping Fighter or Barbarian.

Is Unarmed Swordsage available? If so, you could TWF with Spiked Chain/Unarmed Strike, add a little Snap Kick, maybe garnish a bit with Power Attack.

[bendking]

Yes, so I noticed.



Not quite. By strict RAW, you are only considered proficient with the lesser/unawakened sunsword if you are proficient with either the bastard sword or short sword. It's otherwise treated exactly as a +1 bastard sword. Only the really expensive 50K Legacy or DMG version has language that allows it to be wielded "as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use".



As with Weapon Finesse, EWP requires +1 BAB. Swordsage 1 doesn't qualify.

Anyway, retooled for THFing with Spiked Chain:

Race: Human, Azurin, or Strongheart Halfing
1) Swordsage 1. Feat: Adaptive Style. Bonus: Shadow Blade.
2) Swordsage 2.
3) Swordsage 3. Feat: EWP Spiked Chain.

After that... the only feats I can come up with are all depressingly PHBish: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, etc. A Knock-Down combo would probably work well (if you use the SRD version), but it's much easier to get to by dipping Fighter or Barbarian.

Is Unarmed Swordsage available? If so, you could TWF with Spiked Chain/Unarmed Strike, add a little Snap Kick, maybe garnish a bit with Power Attack.

I think i'll go a stealthy human Swordsage, Unarmed sounds very imba and kinda boring.
I'll use the newer Swordsage Handbook given here to give some more features but your first 3 levels plan sounds abour right.
And I assume EWP means Exotic Weapon Fighting?

[gallagher]

Spiked Chain can be used with Weapon Finesse and Power Attack, and can be used at 5 or 10 feet.
Guisarme can only be used at 10 feet, cannot be finessed, and you require a second weapon to pull it off, meaning you have to split your enhancement bonuses or stay out of close range.

Your opinion would seem to be wrong.

I mean I am not here to argue our opinions on something that cannot be factually proven (thus, can't be right or wrong), a rogue using a martial weapon, and using free actions to be able to let go with one hand so you are threatening in front of you at all times seems to be cheesier because it doesnt fit the mold of the thief character as much as one using a length of chain.

being more powerful doesnt make it cheesier, especially since it costs something to get.

[RFLS]

being more powerful doesnt make it cheesier, especially since it costs something to get.

....wow. The level of wrong in that statement....

Anyway. Cheese would be high end optimization. Spiked chain is a straight up better mechanical choice. Assuming your group understands the mechanics of the game, a spiked chain will always be cheese before guisarme+locked gauntlet is. Cheese has absolutely nothing to do with character concept.

[bendking]

Guys, i'd be happy if this wasn't a cheese fight, I just want some help, haha.
And please, RFLS, oh mighty Handbook creator, bestow thine divine knowledge hither.


Ooh! Ooh! Pick me, pick me! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259783)

I would highly recommend against THF with a Swordsage; Warblade or Crusader would be a more solid choice. Is there a particular reason you want Swordsage?

Because it fits my character, and mostly because who doesn't like cool ninja casting shadow moving monster burning badasses?

[Artillery]

I mean I am not here to argue our opinions on something that cannot be factually proven (thus, can't be right or wrong), a rogue using a martial weapon, and using free actions to be able to let go with one hand so you are threatening in front of you at all times seems to be cheesier because it doesnt fit the mold of the thief character as much as one using a length of chain.

being more powerful doesnt make it cheesier, especially since it costs something to get.

Um, a Rogue can't use a Guisarme, its a Martial Weapon. They only have simple weapon proficiency and specific other weapons.

The Spiked Chain in that case is just strictly better, because you still need to pay a feat for it.

Unarmed Swordsage is nice, if you get light armor proficiency from another class you still get to keep your wis to AC; according to RAW. Dipping Warblade a few levels later in to grab Iron Heart Surge and White raven Tactics is a good idea. Its plenty of nice side perks too.

[Vaz]

Is there a 2 Handed Weapon for Shadow Hand? If so; Shadow Blade Stance+Weapon Finesse gives Dex to Attack and Damage. If not... a Sizing Morphing Skillful Weapon allows you to change what your weapon is, what size it is, and you gain Weapon Proficiency.

[Artillery]

Is there a 2 Handed Weapon for Shadow Hand? If so; Shadow Blade Stance+Weapon Finesse gives Dex to Attack and Damage. If not... a Sizing Morphing Skillful Weapon allows you to change what your weapon is, what size it is, and you gain Weapon Proficiency.

Yes, the Spiked Chain. That is the only one.

[RFLS]

Guys, i'd be happy if this wasn't a cheese fight, I just want some help, haha.
And please, RFLS, oh mighty Handbook creator, bestow thine divine knowledge hither.

Because it fits my character, and mostly because who doesn't like cool ninja casting shadow moving monster burning badasses?

Fair enough. My suggestions are at the bottom of this post.


Is there a 2 Handed Weapon for Shadow Hand? If so; Shadow Blade Stance+Weapon Finesse gives Dex to Attack and Damage. If not... a Sizing Morphing Skillful Weapon allows you to change what your weapon is, what size it is, and you gain Weapon Proficiency.

Oddly enough....spiked chain :smallamused:

Anyway. Spiked chain is, as has been noted, the most mechanically sound choice for what you're after. However, there are a few other things you can do that are closer to your "stealthy ninja with a sword" image. You'll notice that the bastard sword is a weapon of the Diamond Mind school; which is not the "stealth" school. This is fairly easy to deal with, actually. What you do is pick most of your stances as Shadow Hand, as that's where the school's stealth bonuses generally lie. You then pick most of your strikes from Diamond Mind. You have to keep in mind here that, for your "Discipline Focus" class feature, you're not limited to one school. Therefore, you can pick Diamond Mind for Weapon Focus and Insightful Strike, and Shadow Hand for Defensive Stance. You'd need to pick up Shadow Blade at some point, keeping in mind that it adds your Dex mod to damage, but does not replace Strength.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Warblade's easier for a more conventional THF user, but Swordsage can power a perfectly viable two-hander. Especially with a trip focus.

NG Human wolf totem barbarian:

Lvl Class Feats BA Stances/Maneuvers
1 Barbarian 1 Wolf Berserker, Extra Rage 1
2 Barbarian 2 Improved Trip 2
3 Fighter 1 Knockdown, Combat Reflexes 3
4 Fighter 2 Power Attack 4
5 Swordsage 1 4 Flame's Blessing, Counter Charge, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Flashing Sun, Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap
6 Swordsage 2 Law Devotion 5 Child of Shadow, Mountain Hammer
7 Swordsage 3 6 Soaring Raptor Strike
8 Soldier of Light 1 7
9 Soldier of Light 2 Serenity 8
10 Swordsage 4 9 Comet Throw, Searing Charge, Rabid Wolf Strike
11 Swordsage 5 9 Leaping Dragon Stance, Strike of the Broken Shield
12 Swordsage 6 Curling Wave Strike 10 Dancing Mongoose, Shadow Stride, Shadow Jaunt
13 Swordsage 7 11 Mirrored Pursuit
14 Swordsage 8 12 Ballista Throw, Rabid Bear Strike, Comet Throw
15 Swordsage 9 Robilar's Gambit 12 Step of the Dancing Moth Leaping Flame
16 Swordsage 10 13 Shadow Blink, Swooping Dragon Strike, Mountain Hammer
17 Swordsage 11 14 Salamander Charge
18 Swordsage 12 Defensive Sweep 15 Raging Mongoose,One with Shadow, Flashing Sun
19 Swordsage 13 15 Hydra Slaying Strike
20 Swordsage 14 16 Ghostly Defense, Tornado Throw, Feral Death Blow, Soaring Raptor Strike

Str>Dex/Con/Wis>>Int/Cha

Add the cookie-cutter Barbarian+ variants if you want, but it should work as-is.

[Twilightwyrm]

While less potentially explosively powerful than a TWF Swordsage, a THW Swordsage is actually a viable concept, if a little difficult to pull off in execution (I'm actually playing a Barbarian/Swordsage like this right now). There are a few choices you must make though, first being whether or not you want to be a charger, and second being whether or not you want to multiclass.
If you want straight swordsage, you can still use Tiger Claw maneuvers to pull off a charger build, you get Duel Boost at the end, and with the Aptitude weapon enchantment (which you should probably be getting anyways) if you don't want a spiked chain, you can still use Shadow Blade on your weapon, but the right configuration becomes tricky. A Build would look something like the Spiked Chain build already given.

If on the other hand, you do want to multiclass, then things become a bit easier. Dips in Barbarian and Exotic Weapon Master, as well as potentially others, give some marked increases in power. Here is a sample charger Swordsage build:
Human Swordsage 16/Barbarian (w/ Spirit Lion Totem) 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Something with Full BAB
1st EWP (Bastard Sword), Adaptive Style, Weapon Focus (Diamond Mind) (B)
3rd Power Attack
6th Battle Jump (OR Improved Bullrush)
9th Leap Attack (OR Shock Trooper)
12th (Vice Versa, OR Shadow Blade)
15th (Vice Versa OR Optional)
18th (Vice Versa, OR Optional)
There are a few things that bare explanation. Bastard Sword is used because it is the most accessible Exotic Weapon that falls into the status of potentially counting as both One-Handed and Two-Handed for the purpose of Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow, tripling PA damage just by using it in two hands. Otherwise, the Spiked Chain might well be mechanically superior, but I would say in this case the extra damage can outweigh this consideration. Next, you'll notice I've listed Improved Bullrush and Shock Trooper as more optional for a Swordsage. This is because the addition of Martial Discipline Weapons makes then less immediately necessary. Having Shadow Hand on your weapon (assuming you are in a Shadow Hand stance) means a more or less constant +3 to hit. Add Tiger Claw for +1 more, and this jumps to +6 whenever you are activating a Tiger Claw maneuver or Boost (which should be often). Add a third when you are activating a boost/maneuver in combination with a tiger claw boost/maneuver, and you suddenly have a +9 to hit. This means that, while at the point that you get a +16 or higher BAB Shock Trooper will be much more helpful, at lower amounts your addition of a high STR score, Weapon Focus, and other potential to hit enchantments means that you will be hitting things more often than not anyways, even when you sacrifice all your BAB for power attack. This makes Shock Trooper less immediately necessary. Finally, even if you aren't making a charger, giving your TWF Swordsage Battle Jump isn't a bad plan. With the amount of Tiger Claw Maneuvers that either modify your jump checks, or require that you get a high jump check, adding in a charge to the damage doesn't really hurt.

[bendking]

Well, im pretty much sold to the whole Shadow Hand THF with Spiked Chain, so can someone specify a bit on how I build that kind of character? Keeping in mind we don't have a skill monkey in our party.
And we're playing 3.5e, if I didn't make it clear, kinda thought it was obvious, but sorry anyway.

[bendking]

Uh, please?

[Telonius]

I'd suggest:

1 Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade
3 EWP: Spiked Chain
6 Weapon Finesse
9 Craven
12 Combat Expertise
15 Improved Trip
18 (Whatever you like. Staggering Strike, Darkstalker, Leadership, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative ... whatever floats your boat)

Unfortunately both Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Finesse require BAB +1. If your group houserules that away (many do) I'd take them both at first, and fill in Shadow Blade at 3rd, Adaptive Style at 6th.

[bendking]

I'd suggest:

1 Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade
3 EWP: Spiked Chain
6 Weapon Finesse
9 Craven
12 Combat Expertise
15 Improved Trip
18 (Whatever you like. Staggering Strike, Darkstalker, Leadership, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative ... whatever floats your boat)

Unfortunately both Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Finesse require BAB +1. If your group houserules that away (many do) I'd take them both at first, and fill in Shadow Blade at 3rd, Adaptive Style at 6th.

This sounds pretty cool, but what about stat-wise? We are using 32 method, no stat rolling.
Also, i'm not exactly adept in the Tripping Rules, would you mind explaining a bit?
Also, how hard should I dump Charisma? It's basically useless for me, so should I make it 8, 6, or even lower?

[Telonius]

Basics of the Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) attack:

Attempting a Trip is an attack.
1. Make a melee touch attack (unarmed, or with a weapon if it's a Trip weapon). If you're both unarmed and lacking the Improved Trip feat, this provokes an attack of opportunity.
2. If it hits, make an opposed check: your strength, versus the target's strength or dexterity, whichever is better. (Modifiers for size or exceptional stability apply).
3. If you win the check, he's prone; if you lose, he usually gets a chance to trip you back.
4. If he's prone, and you have the Improved Trip feat, you get an immediate attack (as though you hadn't used up the attack by attempting the trip).

Now, as a Swordsage making Trip attacks, you're most often going to be doing that in conjunction with Setting Sun strikes. The really nice thing about Setting Sun is that most of them change step 2: instead of "your strength," you can use "your dex" if that's higher. Since you have Shadow Blade (Dex to damage) and Weapon Finesse (Dex to hit), this means that Strength is basically a dump stat for you.

I'd suggest these stats:

Str 8
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 11

Str is dump, Dex is your primary stat, Con is useful for everybody, and you're a melee combatant with a d8 hitdie. You need 13 Int minimum for Combat Expertise, and you mentioned a lack of skillmonkey; so get the bonus skillpoints by having an even 14. Wisdom is kind of useful (AC bonus, strikes) but it's usually not enough to justify use of scarce points. Charisma is slightly above average, since it sounds like you don't want to completely dump it. If you're okay with an 8 Cha, you can have an 18 Dex.

[Elric VIII]

Have you considered doing both THF and TWF?

I have a design for a Swordsage in the works that uses two-handed weapon along with unarmed strikes and uses power attack as the bonus damage. This works because unarmed strike is a light weapon that can be used to pwoer attack. I have a level of Barbarian, along with Pugilist Fighter (Dragon 310) as a monk replacement, due to alignment restrictions.

I'm using Barbarian for pounce and to represent the "inner demon" of the character, but it's not strictly necessary. If your group does not approve of pounce, I might recommend taking Snap Kick so you can get mini-pounce.

Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Bloodline 1*/Swordsage 8/Fighter +1/Master of Nine 5/Swordsage 4.

Due to the extreme feat demand I use flaws to make it fit. The base race is human.

*Bloodlines come from Unearthed Arcana or the SRD. A minor bloodline is basically a LA that you can take after a certain amount of levels that does not count toward your ECL (so you eventualyl even out with the group). Among other things it grants a free feat at level 8. If you already have that feat you can choose any other feat in its place. I use the Demon Bloodline for Power Attack and because it fits nicely with the character.

Note that the way this works with level-based calculations is that it counts as a level of Swordsage meaning your IL is equal to your level. If your DM also rules that it counts as a level of Mo9 as well (which it technically does due to poor wording) you can get an IL of 1 higher than your level. Also, if it counts as a level of Mo9, you get an extra maneuver readied because the class states you get "one additional maneuver readied per level."


1: Extra Rage, Dodge, Imp Initiative, Power Attack
2: Improved Unarmed Strike**, Endurance**, TWF
3: Adaptive Style
6: Blind Fight
8: Improved Bullrush
9: Shock Trooper
11: Snap Kick (Fighter feat)
12: Improved TWF
15: Greater TWF
18: Martial Study/stance (You have an IL of 18 here because of the bloodline)

**Free from the fighter ACF.
***Replacement feat from Bloodline.

The reason I have the Mo9 where it is is because of the maneuvers I wanted to get out of it. I don't remember exactly what they are at the moment, but you can get it as early as level 8 in the build or delay it until the end to get more 9th level maneuvers (Although SS alone can get 7, if you count the Martial Study).

[bendking]

Basics of the Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) attack:

Attempting a Trip is an attack.
1. Make a melee touch attack (unarmed, or with a weapon if it's a Trip weapon). If you're both unarmed and lacking the Improved Trip feat, this provokes an attack of opportunity.
2. If it hits, make an opposed check: your strength, versus the target's strength or dexterity, whichever is better. (Modifiers for size or exceptional stability apply).
3. If you win the check, he's prone; if you lose, he usually gets a chance to trip you back.
4. If he's prone, and you have the Improved Trip feat, you get an immediate attack (as though you hadn't used up the attack by attempting the trip).

Now, as a Swordsage making Trip attacks, you're most often going to be doing that in conjunction with Setting Sun strikes. The really nice thing about Setting Sun is that most of them change step 2: instead of "your strength," you can use "your dex" if that's higher. Since you have Shadow Blade (Dex to damage) and Weapon Finesse (Dex to hit), this means that Strength is basically a dump stat for you.

I'd suggest these stats:

Str 8
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 11

Str is dump, Dex is your primary stat, Con is useful for everybody, and you're a melee combatant with a d8 hitdie. You need 13 Int minimum for Combat Expertise, and you mentioned a lack of skillmonkey; so get the bonus skillpoints by having an even 14. Wisdom is kind of useful (AC bonus, strikes) but it's usually not enough to justify use of scarce points. Charisma is slightly above average, since it sounds like you don't want to completely dump it. If you're okay with an 8 Cha, you can have an 18 Dex.

Actually I want to dump Cha a bit, im not going to be a diplomat or bluffer, and it has not mechanical use to my character nor class.
But thanks alot, this seems like a good plan, so what do I do with the spare 2 points after dumping Cha to 8 and going 18 Dex?

[Telonius]

You wouldn't actually have any spare points. Higher stats are worth more than lower ones; it costs 3 points to bump a score up from a 17 to an 18.

[bendking]

You wouldn't actually have any spare points. Higher stats are worth more than lower ones; it costs 3 points to bump a score up from a 17 to an 18.

Got it.
One question though, isn't it strange that Swordsage can potentialy have more Skill Points than a Rogue? I mean, he is better at fighting already, now he is a better skill monkey?

[RFLS]

Got it.
One question though, isn't it strange that Swordsage can potentialy have more Skill Points than a Rogue? I mean, he is better at fighting already, now he is a better skill monkey?

Wait, you mean to say that not only is Swordage better designed, it's more powerful? I don't understand!

[BowStreetRunner]

If you want to be the party skill-monkey and are looking to pick up Trapfinding, a dip in any of the classes that grant it wouldn't actually hurt your martial adept progression very much. Rogue, Scout, Ranger (ACF from Dungeonscape), Beguiler, Factotum, and Ninja all offer this class feature.

[bendking]

Wait, you mean to say that not only is Swordage better designed, it's more powerful? I don't understand!

Isn't it OP that he has both more skills and better at combat than the rogue?
Never mind, I asked it in another topic and people said it should be x4
Also, if I take at level one both EWP and Weapon Finesse (Human, and house-ruled that I can take them both without BAB +1), what should I take at level 3 - Adaptive Style or Shadow Blade?

[bendking]

Umm.. Guys?

[WhatBigTeeth]

With the suggested stat array, until you have shadow blade, your spiked chain is going to do a mean 4 damage per hit. That's terrible.

If you're forcing a finesse route to two-handed weapon use, you'll need EWP, Shadow blade and weapon finesse all ASAP, just to be on the same ground as a two-handed swordsage who had prioritized strength instead.

Adaptive style will have to wait.

[bendking]

With the suggested stat array, until you have shadow blade, your spiked chain is going to do a mean 4 damage per hit. That's terrible.

If you're forcing a finesse route to two-handed weapon use, you'll need EWP, Shadow blade and weapon finesse all ASAP, just to be on the same ground as a two-handed swordsage who had prioritized strength instead.

Adaptive style will have to wait.
Got it, Shadow Blade it is, thank you.