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Chilingsworth
2013-01-17, 02:47 PM
Is such a thing possible?

Specifically, how much prosperity and citizen involvement in government is possible in a society that leans heavily towards Lawful Evil?

For the purposes of this thought experiment, human sacrifices (of criminals and enemy combatants) and use of undead (so long as they aren't made by killing law-abiding citizens against their will) are acceptable. (Not nessicarily "non evil," but not counted as black marks re propserity and the like.)

Basically, to put the question another way, what's the highest "standard of living" possible within a strongly LE-leaning society. Also, what's the maximum amount of diversity such a society can be expected to tolerate?

EDIT: Changed the title from "rebublic" to "society"

Specific example I'm working with:

An evil (probably Lawful Evil) leaning society that is nevertheless both prospecous and diverse. Essentially accepting any sentient (save perhaps members of a small number of groups with which it has extreme enmity) as a citizen with the full responsibilities, rights, and benefits. Is this possible?

In my specific case, I'm trying to overthrow a Tyr-worshiping theocracy, in revenge for their purge of Asmodeus worshipers and outlawing of public expression of all non-Tyr faiths. (Also, for the misery I beleive them to have caused me.)


Incidentally, before the purge (which was made possible due to the previous royal family's sudden death en masse, ala King Ralph) The church of Asmodeus was an accepted part of the country's culture, and leaned more towards lawful neutral than lawful evil.

In the current era (Tyran regime) (also the supposedly "good guys") The church of Tyr seems to lean more towards lawful neutral (at best) (rather than its supposed lawful good) as well.

Specifically:

-- As previously mentioned, they outlawed all non-tyran religions.

-- They then insituted a massive, decades-long purge of Asmodeus worshipers, even grabbing and putting to death worshipers who had done nothing that was previously illegal/particularly immoral. (As an example, the patron of my character's orphanage, which was well run, but got shut down when he was accused of asmodeu worship.)

-- They are willing to use torture as a means of getting information (this in a world where charm and anti-lie magic is at least potentially quite common) They also are quite happy to use gruesome methods of execution, such as drawing and quartering and immolation.

-- They are racist against anything that isn't a full-blooded human. Wheather this is offical policy or not, it is common among those with power, and tolerated by high officials. Incidentally, the former royal family was composed mostly of half-elves. Example: when my (half-elven) character's orphanage was shut down, the human children were taken to other orphanages. My character and the few other non-human/not fully human children? The captain of the contingent sent to investigate and shut the orphanage down threw them out onto the street.

-- There is at least some corruption in their legal system:
Example: My character (before game start) was something of a playboy/conman (wizard with enchantment spells and decent charisma) One of his pickups turned out to be the daughter of some noble "slumming" it. Daddy found out and pulled some strings to get him tried and convicted of the crime of slavery, which carried the sentence of death by immolation. Did my character commit a crime? Yes (seduction with magical aid) but that would have carried a lesser sentence (life time of hard labor at worst.) The fact that someone was able, for any reason, to pull strings for the eventual result does not speak well of the current regime.

The examples from my character's backstory have been Ok'd by my DM, so they happened and are valid for my purposes. Also, Tyr and Asmodeus are not as exactly as their FR/D&D canonical counterparts.

Zahhak
2013-01-17, 02:55 PM
{Scrubbed}

tuesdayscoming
2013-01-17, 03:00 PM
Think of the Empire from the Star Wars franchise: Lawful Evil through and through, but extraordinarily capable of managing dominion over a vast expanse of space. Are the Empire's citizens happy with their lot in life? I have no idea. But the Empire itself is, regardless, hugely prosperous.

LE is not going to mean the same thing in every context, though. Variations in governance will exist between every conceivable model for a LE society, and these variations will lead to dramatically different social outcomes. Compare, for instance, the Star Wars Empire with Drow society as described in DotU. Wildly different, but both self-sustaining, lawful-evil societies.

Kaveman26
2013-01-17, 03:05 PM
Or watch Rome on HBO. Octavian is portrayed as a ruthless and conniving schemer that is not all afraid to have his political rivals murdered. In the show Cleopatra prefers suicide to his "mercy". And he still inspired the Pax Romana.

Slipperychicken
2013-01-17, 03:32 PM
It really depends on how the alignment is played out. If it's widespread corruption, politicking, betrayal/rebellion, and favoritism, that can really stagnate the economy pretty hard. If it's a sincere matter of "do anything and everything for the good of the people", then that may improve prosperity at home... at the expense of out-groups (usually foreigners, religious and ethnic minorities).

randomhero00
2013-01-17, 03:34 PM
Think of the Empire from the Star Wars franchise: Lawful Evil through and through, but extraordinarily capable of managing dominion over a vast expanse of space. Are the Empire's citizens happy with their lot in life? I have no idea. But the Empire itself is, regardless, hugely prosperous.


My thoughts exactly. Just replace the droids with undead servants.

Edit: so they could be just as prosperous, if not more so than a LG society.

Diversity on the other hand...I see that as being quite a bit more difficult to achieve in a LE society.

A Tad Insane
2013-01-17, 03:56 PM
Firstly, a republic is just how the government works, i.e. having represetatives. Where a republic derives its power from is a different matter entirely.

Second, it's very easy fora LE country to be prospours. Just look a post WI germany and nazi germany.

Thirdly, the empire had stormtroopers, not droids!

Chilingsworth
2013-01-17, 04:07 PM
Firstly, a republic is just how the government works, i.e. having represetatives. Where a republic derives its power from is a different matter entirely.

Second, it's very easy fora LE country to be prospours. Just look a post WI germany and nazi germany.

Thirdly, the empire had stormtroopers, not droids!

Firstly, I'm aware of that. However, don't LE societies tend to be autocratic?

Secondly, not sure I should touch that.

Thirdly, didn't they have torture droids?

BlckDv
2013-01-17, 04:10 PM
The requirement for it to be a Republic is a bit of a spanner in the works, but far from a fatal one.

If the land was once a Republic, and maintains a fiction of being one while actually having fallen into some flavor of autocracy, it could be prosperous indeed. Tyrannies and Despotisms are very efficient governments, they are just not overly stable. For the lifespan of the original rulers and perhaps a few generations to follow that efficiency can easily manifest in high prosperity. Just woe to those whose lively-hoods are not approved of by the state.

Now, if you mean for the Rebublic name to not be a mask, it is harder. In an LE society which is ruled in fact as well as name by an elected board of leaders, graft, intimidation, bribes and corruption will be rampant. Individuals may be wealthy indeed, but the state as a whole is likely not to prosper as the dysfunction clogs up the works and makes it very inefficient.

{scrubbed}
Even Start Wars starts with the Emperor taking away the power of the Senate.

NothingButCake
2013-01-17, 04:10 PM
{Scrubbed}

Friv
2013-01-17, 04:13 PM
Any government can get quite prosperous by means of removing the people who are not prosperous or taking that prosperity from other people.

J-H
2013-01-17, 04:15 PM
It really depends on how the alignment is played out. If it's widespread corruption, politicking, betrayal/rebellion, and favoritism, that can really stagnate the economy pretty hard. If it's a sincere matter of "do anything and everything for the good of the people", then that may improve prosperity at home... at the expense of out-groups (usually foreigners, religious and ethnic minorities).

This. If everyone "buys in" to the system and slaps corruption and favoritism down hard, it works. There needs to be a tax requirement for voting, though, as otherwise those on the low end of the income spectrum will start voting for whoever promises them more stuff... and down that path lies unsustainable debt, half of the population getting all the benefits of government at no cost to themselves, corruption, etc.

Roland St. Jude
2013-01-17, 04:31 PM
Sheriff: Real world politics is an Inappropriate Topic on this forum, even when it intersects a gaming topic.

Chilingsworth
2013-01-17, 04:44 PM
Ok, can we please not get this thread locked?

Also, forget the republic. Let me try again is stating my goal:

An evil (probably Lawful Evil) leaning society that is nevertheless both prospecous and diverse. Essentially accepting any sentient (save perhaps members of a small number of groups with which it has extreme enmity) as a citizen with the full responsibilities, rights, and benefits. Is this possible?

In my specific case, I'm trying to overthrow a Tyr-worshiping theocracy, in revenge for their purge of Asmodeus worshipers and outlawing of public expression of all non-Tyr faiths. (Also, for the misery I beleive them to have caused me.)

Incidentally, before the purge (which was made possible due to the previous royal family's sudden death en masse, ala King Ralph) The church of Asmodeus was an accepted part of the country's culture, and leaned more towards lawful neutral than lawful evil.

In the current era (Tyran regime) (also the supposed "good guys") The church of Tyr seems to lean more towards lawful neutral (at best) (rather than its supposed lawful good) as well.

Specifically:

-- As previously mentioned, they outlawed all non-tyran religions.

-- They then insituted a massive, decades-long purge of Asmodeus worshipers, even grabbing and putting to death worshipers who had done nothing that was previously illegal/particularly immoral. (As an example, the patron of my character's orphanage, which was well run, but got shut down when he was accused of asmodeu worship.)

-- They are willing to use torture as a means of getting information (this in a world where charm and anti-lie magic is at least potentially quite common) They also are quite happy to use gruesome methods of execution, such as drawing and quartering and immolation.

-- They are racist against anything that isn't a full-blooded human. Wheather this is offical policy or not, it is common among those with power, and tolerated by high officials. Incidentally, the former royal family was composed mostly of half-elves. Example: when my (half-elven) character's orphanage was shut down, the human children were taken to other orphanages. My character and the few other non-human/not fully human children? The captain of the contingent sent to investigate and shut the orphanage down threw them out onto the street.

-- There is at least some corruption in their legal system:
Example: My character (before game start) was something of a playboy/conman (wizard with enchantment spells and decent charisma) One of his pickups turned out to be the daughter of some noble "slumming" it. Daddy found out and pulled some strings to get him tried and convicted of the crime of slavery, which carried the sentence of death by immolation. Did my character commit a crime? Yes (seduction with magical aid) but that would have carried a lesser sentence (life time of hard labor at worst.) The fact that someone was able, for any reason, to pull strings for the eventual result does not speak well of the current regime.

The examples from my character's backstory have been Ok'd by my DM, so they happened and are valid for my purposes. Also, Tyr and Asmodeus are not as exactly as their FR/D&D canonical counterparts.

Terraoblivion
2013-01-17, 05:02 PM
Republic is not synonymous with democracy and all it really refers to is a state where the position of head of state isn't hereditary. It's perfectly possible to have a republic ruled in an oligarchic fashion by a small junta that holds all formal power or a small nobility making up only a few percent of the population hold all political power. The latter is in fact what Roman government in the early republic was like and it is from this government that the term republic comes, being a case of linguistic drift from the original res publica, meaning public matter or concern.

Also, the method of government is less important to the alignment of a state than what laws they pass and how they're enforced. So if the legislation is full of harsh punishment, structural discrimination and justice is meted out without mercy, yet also efficiently, diligently and according to established legal codes, you'd be looking at a lawful evil government, regardless of how appointments are made.

J-H
2013-01-17, 05:23 PM
An evil (probably Lawful Evil) leaning society that is nevertheless both prospecous and diverse. Essentially accepting any sentient (save perhaps members of a small number of groups with which it has extreme enmity) as a citizen with the full responsibilities, rights, and benefits.
I suggest taking the Roman Republic/early Empire as your template.
Other than Carthage, most of the areas they conquered weren't ones that had attacked them first. Although they did end up being ruled by an Empire rather than a Senate, that didn't happen until they'd already conquered quite a bit of territory with their legions.

As per this map-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Republica_Romana.svg

They did deal harshly with opposition, and impose taxes on the conquered people to fund their military, but they also allowed native religions and ethnic groups to persist (as long as they didn't challenge Rome's authority) and even buy Roman citizenship. However, women still had fewer rights, children weren't "official" until adopted (father could kill them), there were slaves (not up on the details of that), and there were some social classes in Rome (patricians & plebians being the main ones). Plenty of "evil" to go with the "lawful and organized."

Kane0
2013-01-17, 09:09 PM
My first view was a game of monopoly where everyone cheats in small ways.
I'm sure there was a pair of evil societies outlined in the BoVD somewhere too.

1337 b4k4
2013-01-17, 09:23 PM
Prosperous lawful evil is certainly possible, but it may depend on your thresholds for prosperous and evil. Nazi Germany is the obvious example, but I would argue that by modern standards, you could make a case that pre-emancipation US or any other country with a robust slave economy would qualify. The key thing to remember is that most "prosperous" evil societies are prosperous because they benefit a large segment of the population while being excessively evil to a smaller subset. By comparison non prosperous evil societies tend to be oppressive of all the population, except the "chosen few"

ArcturusV
2013-01-17, 09:40 PM
I like what you got going there Chillingsworth. Sounds very interesting.

I think the problem with the "Evil" alignment is the same thing that gets done with the Lawful Good alignment (It's usual portrayal as Awful Stupid). Evil, particularly Lawful Evil, should care in some fashion about efficiency. I see this less as an alignment about getting all the power for yourself, by any means necessary, but an alignment where people believe the most qualified naturally should rule, and use any means necessary to ensure things run as needed.

I'd see the image of the Lawful Evil Society being less hereditary. Only if so much that genetics does not make for a fit leader. And a Lawful Evil society, much more so than a Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good society, should be geared towards having a fit leader.

A rough governmental system that I could see fitting for a Lawful Evil society would be like this:

There is an Emperor. The Emperor is not a hereditary title but is instead one of the Princes who is chosen by a meeting of Dukes when the old Emperor steps down/is fired (out of a ballista... for ineptitude/dereliction of duty perhaps).

Four "Princes". These four Princes are again, not a hereditary title (Though sometimes tend to be because of the advantages that wealth and power gains in possibly raising educated men/women). There is one prince for the four bases of Power in the Empire, Civilian Administration, Military Administration, Mystical Affairs, and Internal Security. These four Princes advise the Emperor, set a lot of official policy, get stuff done, etc. When a Prince dies/retires/is elevated to Emperor/is fired for incompetence, the Dukes will generally elect a candidate to replace them. Due to the upheaval this process has (One cornerstone of the empire is not being minded effectively while the seat is empty), it's not an action taken lightly. Anyone, from a notable local hero to the son of the Emperor could easily become a Prince.

Dukes. These hold regional power and are responsible for making sure their area contributes to the goals set by the Princes, and that local security and authority are enforced. Dukes are appointed by the Emperor with the Princes able to offer council and suggestions (Or overturn an appointment if all four disagree with the Emperor, and usually a sign he's about to be fired).

Mandates. The next rung down on the ladder. Mandates are small regions of the Empire, usually more like one settlement and the surrounding territory. Mandates are ruled by a mirror of the Princes (One for each category), and are tasked with the details of carrying out Imperial Rule. Mandates tend to be ruled by citizens of note from the local area, carrying with them not only the authority contributed to them by the Dukes, but also a measure of respect due to their status as outstanding and already respected members of the community.


So a government that works slightly like that. The "Evil" comes into play due to how they generally behave, rather than the fact that is an "Empire". Though more accurately you can say it tries to hold to the ideals of a Meritocracy. Sometimes this falls apart. You have the local "Internal Security" directorate though which is tasked, among other things, to seek out corruption and excise it, painfully. I figure an "Empire" ordered like this might be fairly stable, all things considered, with a balance of power and authority. Local rebellions less likely not necessarily due to pogroms and murder but by being ruled by people they respect. Also due to the way Mandates are set up anyone could have become part of the ruling class, if they were sufficiently skilled, renown, and popular.

One of those classic methods of making sure people stay where they are, even if the regime is "Evil", is by giving that option to promote, grow, and become powerful inside that system to everyone else. Especially if your Empire was aware of this tendency. Say that the Empire itself was forged in a rebellion against an oppressive hereditary regime.

So the Empire ended up being "Evil" less through actions like Racism, or mass torture and executions. But it was Evil through it's actions. It was an aggressive government, more than willing to put it's boot up the ass of it's neighbors in order to get what it felt it needed or deserved. Less constant war though and more intimidation and bullying, warring only if they can't get what they want through easier means. I mean why go to war with everyone when you can just ask them for something? Or at the very least conduct a one time minor raid on a border outpost and use the decimation of it to intimidate them into getting what you want?

Since the basis for advancement in it isn't centered on who you were born to be, but who you choose to be? (Though with power again comes more opportunities for the next generation to build off your success, naturally) It should be a fairly prosperous nation. When people know they can be rewarded for their hard labor directly, they tend to work harder.

Chilingsworth
2013-01-17, 09:58 PM
Awesome example of what I was looking for.

That's great, thanks a bunch!

Ok, now I just need help in combining that with the rough sketch of a military structure that's spread over much of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267323) thread.

Also, I'd be interested in what you have to say about my skills (or lack thereof) in army building. :smallbiggrin:

Also, the empire in question will have large numbers of undead in it, especially in its ruling classes (though not the whole of the ruling class.)

ArcturusV
2013-01-17, 10:02 PM
I'll take a peek.

Sergeantbrother
2013-01-18, 08:36 AM
I really don't think that being Lawful Evil is going to limit prosperity or diversity at all. Any "evil empire" from fiction or history would likely be considered both Lawful Evil and prosperous.

Diversity mightbe a little different, as being lawful does mean that there are going to be certain traditions, values, customs, or traits that will be valued by the society and being evil means that they are willing to harshly enforce those values. That doesn't necessarily mean that certain sorts of diversity aren't possible. You already mentioned that the nation are human supremacists essentially, which would certainly be a limiting factor on diversity in the typical D&D world, but there is no reason that a Lawful Evil society has to be racist (specieist?) or religiously intolerant. In fact, it could be that the edicts of the rulers state that various different races and religions must be accepted into the nation and tolerated.

Really, alignment should not be that much of a limiter on prosperity or diversity, or any major aspects of a nation for that matter. I think you should come up with the traditions, values, motivations, and cultural traits of a nation separately from the prevailing alignment - then alignment should be used to access how they approach those values and what they do to achieve their goals.

ArcturusV
2013-01-18, 08:43 AM
Clarification Sergeantbrother:

It's not the Human Speciest style Empire that is/was the Evil Empire. They overthrew the Evil Empire, put the royal family to the sword from the sounds of it, then started their purges.

Though I mostly agree. In/competence isn't anywhere on the Alignment Chart I've ever seen.

Except old school Chaotic Neutral when it was being described as literally being a madman incapable of making any sort of rational judgement.

J-H
2013-01-18, 01:34 PM
I just found this while looking for high level gear suggestions. Very good treatise by a Paizo designer on D&D economics. Politics is economics+ideology+geography+personalities, and economics rules more often than most people realize.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10821

Chilingsworth
2013-01-18, 04:53 PM
Clarification Sergeantbrother:

It's not the Human Speciest style Empire that is/was the Evil Empire. They overthrew the Evil Empire, put the royal family to the sword from the sounds of it, then started their purges.

Actually, it's:

The prior regime (the half-elven royal family) was of unknown, but afaik definately not evil alignment. The religion was polytheistic, with both tyr and asmodeus as accepted members of the pantheon.
The royal family came to an end by means unknown to me, but at least supposedly not due to members of the current regime (they just took advantage of the power vaccum/moved to restore order before the country fell apart.)

The current regime: Supposedly Lawful Good, but acts lawful neutral (at best) Tyr-worshiping theocracy. Roughly speaking a typical fantasy feudal-style government. Treats its human, Tyr-worshiping citizens well enough, but marginalizes non humans (and half-humans/plane (or other) touched humans). Also bans public worship of anyone but Tyr. Generally tolorates private worship of any of the old pantheon except Asmodeus. Actively purged asmodeus worshipers, even those that were a benefit to the community (and most were at worst harmless.) Uses harsh interrogation methods on suspects and criminals, inspite having other (more effective) methods available. Commonly uses horrific methods of execution (for those they judge to be the worst criminals, but still not a Good aligned policy.)

Future Regime: The regime my party and I are trying to found. Will lean towards Lawful Evil (due to sponsorship by a resurgent (and ticked off) church of Asmodeus, congrats on radicalizing the Asmodeus worshipers, Tyr-loving scum!) Will come to power by (among other things) aiding an invasion by orcish horde, assassinations, and general terrorist activities. I want it to be at least as tolorant of religious differences as the Tyran regime (i.e. tolerating private worship of any diety other than Tyr, so long as those worshipers obey the laws, fulfill their duties as citizens, work for the good of the state, and don't act to convert others to their religion and/or try to make their religions significant powers in the country.) (That's roughly what I understand the Tyr regime's relationship to other religions to be, except replace "Tyr" with Asmodeus) I also want the new regime to treat all its citizens well, regardless of race (or species, if we get some non-humanoid sentients as citizens, I'd want us to welcome them. They can be useful to the state, afterall. And, if they can and are willing to serve the country, they deserve the benefits of citizenship.) Also, this new regime will use (non sentient) undead as power sources and weapons. Sentient undead will be citizens. Also, criminals will be dealt with harshly, but pragmatically (e.g. torture will only be used for information gathering if rapport building and magical means prove ineffective.)

Umm... hope that clears up some confusion, and doesn't cause more of it. :smallwink:

Winter_Wolf
2013-01-18, 07:59 PM
Sounds like the campaign's Tyr regime has become the thing it hates. Species-ism, lip service tolerance to private worship, intolerance of overt public worship of non-Tyr, gruesome executions and torture; sounds like generally pretty crappy behavior for a supposedly lawful good theocracy.

If this society is otherwise prosperous, I think you *have* your prosperous (lawful) evil society already! They just have a different deity to rally around.

Honestly your proposed Asmodeus theocratic hostile takeover would be a step up, because at least it's (probably) openly and unabashedly evil, instead of the "we're the good guys, so it's okay" party in charge.

Chilingsworth
2013-01-18, 08:09 PM
Sounds like the campaign's Tyr regime has become the thing it hates. Species-ism, lip service tolerance to private worship, intolerance of overt public worship of non-Tyr, gruesome executions and torture; sounds like generally pretty crappy behavior for a supposedly lawful good theocracy.

If this society is otherwise prosperous, I think you *have* your prosperous (lawful) evil society already! They just have a different deity to rally around.

Honestly your proposed Asmodeus theocratic hostile takeover would be a step up, because at least it's (probably) openly and unabashedly evil, instead of the "we're the good guys, so it's okay" party in charge.

That's basically what I've been thinking. Thing is, individually, many of them do seem to be Lawful Good (a paladin we fought even tried to get us to serrender, promising us "Tyr's mercy," (i.e. "painless execution,") if we did so. Acording to my DM, the current regime is more "Lawful Neutral with some good tendencies" than "Lawful Good." I expect the regime I replace them with to end up being "Lawful Neutral with (admittedly heavy) Evil tendancies" or, at worst "(pragmatic) Lawful Evil." Rather than "hurr hurr, we worship devils, we'll torture you cuz... devils!" Lawful Evil.

And, yeah... I wouldn't be surprised if the new regime sees less use of torture (or at least, increased use of gentler methods of interrorgation, which are really more reliable anyway.) There will still be gruesome executions, though. Just... different ones (don't want to ruin the body for undead creation, or waste the potential feed for our hungrier undead citizens. :smallwink:)

Mando Knight
2013-01-18, 08:36 PM
It depends on your definition of prosperous. Prosperity for those in charge? Most definitely. Prosperity for "the little guy" is almost out of the question, though. It may be promised, but why support the "happiness" of lazy weaklings? Egalitarianism, morality, etc. are "cute" ideas, but when they get in the way of the results desired by the leadership, expect them to be ruthlessly cut down.

Evil isn't merely a black and red recolor of Good, it's an entirely different way of thinking.

tomandtish
2013-01-18, 08:47 PM
Think of the Empire from the Star Wars franchise: Lawful Evil through and through, but extraordinarily capable of managing dominion over a vast expanse of space. Are the Empire's citizens happy with their lot in life? I have no idea. But the Empire itself is, regardless, hugely prosperous.

LE is not going to mean the same thing in every context, though. Variations in governance will exist between every conceivable model for a LE society, and these variations will lead to dramatically different social outcomes. Compare, for instance, the Star Wars Empire with Drow society as described in DotU. Wildly different, but both self-sustaining, lawful-evil societies.

Actually I would question the term of the Empire as a LE society. To me, to be a lawful evil society, most of the persons in it have to be LE. Most of the people in the Empire are probably neutral (esp. given the way the prequels show Palpetine came to power), and it's only a relative few at the top who are actually evil. Drow society is a much better example of an evil society.

So let me see if the Op will clarify: when you say an evil prosperous society, do you mean one where the leaders are evil? Or the whole republic? In looking at your post, you seem to be talking about the latter, but I'm not 100% certain.

Either way, while not LE, drow society does seem to be a good example. Take out the backstabbing. The Knights of Takhasis from Dragons of Summer Flame might also be good to reference.

ArcturusV
2013-01-18, 10:53 PM
You promise the happiness, or the ability to attain happiness (Which is a fine distinction that often gets forgotten) you cut down immensely on sedition and insurrection.

Things that lead to the downfall of the "Evil Empire" typically are:

Hubris. Thinking they can never falter and thus will throw away resources because they don't need it, pick fights with far more people than they can actually handle, refuse "humiliating" treaty terms with foreign neighbors meaning anything but total and complete surrender of the other side.

Oppression. If you work to really, really oppress a single faction, you build up resentment in your population. Not only among the group you oppress, but those who may sympathize with them, as well as push more moderate/neutral people into the Rebellious faction. Fear only goes so far before it pushes people into actively opposing you. And no matter how well armed, trained, and powerful your own group is, it's hard to fully stamp out a rebellion. Not to mention it wastes precious resources and manpower that could have been more effectively used.

Corruption. When leaders themselves are corrupt, it spreads down the chain and quickly creates an atmosphere where even basic, VITAL tasks end up being not done, or done in very poor regard. It promotes a society where good, effective leadership is often marginalized or fully pushed out of the rank structure to promote people who are sycophants or manipulators rather than actually good at their assigned tasks.

When you combine all three? Well, your regime tends to end fairly quickly. As is it sounds like the Tyr regime is going down this road right as we speak and is going to fall eventually. You would think that the Asmodeus Regime would learn a thing or two based on what caused the Tyrs to fall. Or maybe not. Stupidity is another thing that isn't on the Alignment Chart (Though it tends to be the domain of Lawful Good).

Chilingsworth
2013-01-18, 11:22 PM
You promise the happiness, or the ability to attain happiness (Which is a fine distinction that often gets forgotten) you cut down immensely on sedition and insurrection.

Things that lead to the downfall of the "Evil Empire" typically are:

Hubris. Thinking they can never falter and thus will throw away resources because they don't need it, pick fights with far more people than they can actually handle, refuse "humiliating" treaty terms with foreign neighbors meaning anything but total and complete surrender of the other side.

One of the things I'm trying to avoid

Oppression. If you work to really, really oppress a single faction, you build up resentment in your population. Not only among the group you oppress, but those who may sympathize with them, as well as push more moderate/neutral people into the Rebellious faction. Fear only goes so far before it pushes people into actively opposing you. And no matter how well armed, trained, and powerful your own group is, it's hard to fully stamp out a rebellion. Not to mention it wastes precious resources and manpower that could have been more effectively used.

Again, I'd rather avoid this where I can, but the new regime's treatment of follwers of Tyr and the fact that it will be run by the church of an Archdevil turned god will mean there we aren't oppression-free. Also, before his conversion, my character would have qualified as a more (much more) moderate individual with potential Asmodean sympathies.

Corruption. When leaders themselves are corrupt, it spreads down the chain and quickly creates an atmosphere where even basic, VITAL tasks end up being not done, or done in very poor regard. It promotes a society where good, effective leadership is often marginalized or fully pushed out of the rank structure to promote people who are sycophants or manipulators rather than actually good at their assigned tasks.

This is the thing I want most to avoid. I figure we must have skilled leadership, and those leaders should care about the country rather than merely lining their own pockets.

When you combine all three? Well, your regime tends to end fairly quickly. As is it sounds like the Tyr regime is going down this road right as we speak and is going to fall eventually. You would think that the Asmodeus Regime would learn a thing or two based on what caused the Tyrs to fall. Or maybe not. Stupidity is another thing that isn't on the Alignment Chart (Though it tends to be the domain of Lawful Good).

My character is definately learning from the Tyrans. He realises how their oppression radicalized him and drove the church of Asmodeus further into the realm of evil. He believes that this revolution is what the Tyrans deserve for their overreach and wishes the new regime to avoid similiar overreach.

(responses in bold, sorry for the difficult in quoting this creates.)

As to what I mean by "Evil Society," I expect at a minimum for the leadership to be fairly evil (heads of the church of Asmodeus, afterall.) I expect LE to be a common alignment among the populance, and LN, LE, and NE to be the dominant alignments for the country as a whole. (Again, Church of Asmodeus as dominant religion, also presence of relatively large numbers of sentient undead among the citizenry. (I'm guessing maybe 1-5% of the population, maybe as high as 25%) I expect my character (and likely the other caster in our party, the cleric who I currently seem to have the strongest relationship with) to be among those undead. If another player can bring his dread necromancer back (as opposed to replacing the character) we'll have a third undead former PC. In any case, these two or three characters will definately be in leadership positions in the new regime. (Though our boss, the last surviving cardinal of Asmodeus, might be THE leader in the end.)

ArcturusV
2013-01-18, 11:35 PM
The trick with oppression is to always have an Opt Into the Society button. You can use and abuse as needed. But if there is a way, a legit, open, honest, legal way for anyone to move up in the society, then they should be allowed to. And having that path is what cuts down a lot on the insurrection and sedition that oppression breeds.

Also since you want to avoid corruption, said Opt Into the Society button needs to be merit based at the least. I wouldn't suggest holding it to only membership in the Church. If someone is otherwise say, Lawful Good, but proves himself worthy to the nation and a capable leader? Go ahead and use him.

One thing you might want to avoid as well is having a huge Tyrian Worshiper fed bonfire at your coronation. Hold appropriate trials for the leadership, not rigged trials, but honest ones. They've done enough evil from the sounds of it that an open trial can easily find them worthy of Execution (And raising as mindless undead). Give Tyr worshipers (Other than the leadership) a more or less peaceful ultimatum. Amnesty for the past on condition of conversion from or disregarding their faith. If they choose not to, they may take voluntary exile. Hell even have the Empire cough up some gold to help them move out. You don't want them. Nor do you want them lingering around plotting your downfall. And parting on more or less peaceful terms should help cut that down.

Always going to be a few who are all Religiously fired up to smite you for being evil. But hell, nothing saying Evil can't do things peacefully in it's own interests. The initial investment in getting your direct opposition to either drop it's false faith (And the Trial should show that the Tyrian Doctrine was twisted to evil anyway, shaking their resolve, particularly if it is in no way rigged), or move on with no real regrets pays off in the long run.

Chilingsworth
2013-01-18, 11:57 PM
The trick with oppression is to always have an Opt Into the Society button. You can use and abuse as needed. But if there is a way, a legit, open, honest, legal way for anyone to move up in the society, then they should be allowed to. And having that path is what cuts down a lot on the insurrection and sedition that oppression breeds.

Also since you want to avoid corruption, said Opt Into the Society button needs to be merit based at the least. I wouldn't suggest holding it to only membership in the Church. If someone is otherwise say, Lawful Good, but proves himself worthy to the nation and a capable leader? Go ahead and use him.

One thing you might want to avoid as well is having a huge Tyrian Worshiper fed bonfire at your coronation. Hold appropriate trials for the leadership, not rigged trials, but honest ones. They've done enough evil from the sounds of it that an open trial can easily find them worthy of Execution (And raising as mindless undead). Give Tyr worshipers (Other than the leadership) a more or less peaceful ultimatum. Amnesty for the past on condition of conversion from or disregarding their faith. If they choose not to, they may take voluntary exile. Hell even have the Empire cough up some gold to help them move out. You don't want them. Nor do you want them lingering around plotting your downfall. And parting on more or less peaceful terms should help cut that down.

Always going to be a few who are all Religiously fired up to smite you for being evil. But hell, nothing saying Evil can't do things peacefully in it's own interests. The initial investment in getting your direct opposition to either drop it's false faith (And the Trial should show that the Tyrian Doctrine was twisted to evil anyway, shaking their resolve, particularly if it is in no way rigged), or move on with no real regrets pays off in the long run.

I expect the tyran leadership to actually die fighting. Being Lawful Stupid, they're going to militarily resist until this happens. Unfortunately, this means no trials. The other problem is that they did a fairly good job of hiding their worst atrocities: all the criminals they deemed worthy of torture other than us (afaik) have been successfully executed (or sent to a lifetime of labor in saltmines, but that may also be a death sentence.) So, my party are, afaik, the only surviving witnesses. (We're the first people to escape from their maximum security prision, where the executions were conducted.) There are still living half-elves, of course. They might be able to attest to lesser crimes (oppression, racism, etc) but I doubt their testimony would be sufficent to warrant the death penalty. I'll definately offer any Tyrans surviving the revolution the chance to convert/forsake their religion or take voluntary exile, though.

Also, the people that ran said prision are prettymuch all dead (we razed the place)

ArcturusV
2013-01-19, 12:11 AM
There's always a Speak with Dead low level cleric spell. I'm sure some guys murdered pointlessly will be more than willing to provide testimony from beyond death. And there's gotta be evidence out there somewhere, the guys who originally ransacked/razed the orphanage (Flip 'em for promises of Immunity... then hang them for the crime later because you're evil and he deserves it).

Yeah, I don't think they'd necessarily go quietly. I expect full mouth foaming "SMITE THE EVIL!" last stands going on. But if you know you want to have them alive for a trial or the like it shouldn't be that difficult to prepare for it, spells like Hold Person, alchemical items, merciful weapons, etc. Or just starve them out in a siege so they all fall into Starvation Comas and pick up their bodies.

That and being the "Good" guys it's likely, though not guaranteed, that they maintained some record of what they did in some place. Lawful types tend to be high on all the organization and paperwork. And good people want others to be able to witness their deeds and use it as an example of behavior, so that others might follow their path. Typically at least.

Then again the quote also goes, "Only the ____ were stupid enough to put all their war crimes on paper." Then again the fact that someone did means the mistake exists and it's not too far out of left field to think another group would.

Particularly if they don't see anything wrong with their purges, "Pssh, he was EVIL and worshiped Asmodeus. Of course I smote him and burned down everything he ever owned."

Chilingsworth
2013-01-19, 12:43 AM
Now I'm even sadder that we burninated the prision with all its records...:smallfrown:

Although, they didn't raze the orphanage: They shut it down (the patron of that place might worship Asmodeus! We have to save the children! What's this... the children are fine and doing well? Umm... He still has been accused of Asmodeus worship, close the place down! We'll save you, children!), and relocated the children to other orphanages... except for the nonhuman ones, (Dirty half-elven punks, go away! No one would want the likes of you!) who they turned onto the street. I doubt it was offical policy to do that, though.

I'll definately be on the lookout for records of their activities. One of the things I'll get to do with the "evil organisation" I've been allowed to found is spread disinformation. I'll make frequent use of this ability to call out the Tyrans for their decidedly non-good behavior. (not sure it should be called "disinformation" in that case, though.)

Oh, idea: I'll try to provoke the purge-happy Tyrans into collecting some random people on charges of Asmodeus sympathies/worship. Maybe even get them to think some small village(s) have converted. Then help make people afraid of their government's insane, tyrranical behavior. :xykon:

ArcturusV
2013-01-19, 12:50 AM
Who knows? If they make a habit of doing things like that though, most people probably won't question the charges as the average joe on the street can go, "Hey... didn't those Tyrians go kill good old Kindly Bob? That old priest who helped cure my kid of Sandfever two years ago?" Making it much more likely for people to believe the charges in public opinion. Plus guys always like to watch executions. Gives the peasants something fun to do. Particularly if your method of execution involves public actions like stoning.

Disinformation works best when there is a basis for it. Like how I pegged one PC in a campaign as a "Big Bad Evil Guy" that in our epilogue we summarily tried to defeat. He already publicly established behavior of believing he could do no wrong. That the ends justified the means. And that anything which served his own purposes was fair game, other people existed only in so far as they served his desires.

As such it wasn't too much a leap when I turned most of his friends, contacts, allies, and vassals against him by planting knowledge of how he used and abused things. Even when I twisted facts slightly to point out that he was causing a Demon Apocalypse just so he could rule a nation, no one doubted it.

Chilingsworth
2013-01-19, 01:14 AM
I have no idea how common the knowledge of the punishments for the worst criminals (branding with an "F" for forsaken followed by lifetime hard labor in the saltmines or death (either beheading, drawing and quartering, or immolation)) is. I do know that these things are (or at least were, we burned the place down:smallamused:) handled at a prision facility that was quite isolated, definately not publically.

The purge itself started around 60 years prior to campaign start, reached its peak about 50 years prior, and had basically ended roughly 30-is years prior, as I understand it. There are definately still people alive that remember it, though (even humans can live to 400 years without magical aid in this world.)

Also, now that Asmodean activity has restarted, it should be possible to provoke the Tyrans to restart the purge, at the very least on a small scale (or several small scales.)

Also, your framing of that character sounds made of win! :smallbiggrin:

ArcturusV
2013-01-19, 01:23 AM
Oh, everyone loved the frame job. Except the PC in question. But he loved it in an after the fact matter when the shock of "... and all your friends turn around and try to smite you..." wore off.

Yeah. You can, or should perhaps, try to work on a small scale, see if you can get a village to switch to Asmodeus's worship. Even openly declare it. Have someone set up a public shrine to him, etc. That is sure to get an armed response. And the propaganda coup you might get from Tyrians overreacting to what might just be the act of a lone nut who is otherwise a respected member of the community is just the sort of action you want.

Especially if they go to extremes like burning down an entire village or going on extensive witch trials of everyone there and burning them at the stake. You may be sacrificing a follower or a village asset now to the cause, but it can pay off a lot more in the long run.

Chilingsworth
2013-01-19, 01:36 AM
Another option would be to rescue the villagers (if they were actually allies) to show people that we stand by our friends.

Possibly the best option would be to provoke the Tyrans into annihilating a village, let them do it. Then publicise it and provoke them into annihilating another one, but saving it. That way, people see the full brunt of the atrocities the Tyrans are capable of, and see that the Asmodeans will stand by our friends and allies.

ArcturusV
2013-01-19, 01:38 AM
That too. I am usually loathe to throw away pawns myself. Unless it accomplishes a much bigger capture. As Lawful Evil that SHOULD be your ideal. You don't throw away your pawns, but if they must be sacrificed to accomplish victory, go for it.

And that sounds very appropriate to the situation.