Help with a spell

[Melcar]

I was in the library last night, in the restricted section, and I read something rather odd about a rare piece of magic. It’s called as I understand it:
Arcing Death I came across the spell while reading and I didn't fully understand it.

Arcing Death
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft.+ 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: 1 target
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
One of the more unpleasant spells in the lightning specialist’s arsenal, this potent attack spell surrounds a target with several coruscating bands of electricity that deal 1d8 points of damage per caster level to the target, with a Fortitude save for half damage. In addition, the target is knocked unconscious for 1 round per caster level if the Fortitude save is failed, and is stunned for 1d6 rounds even if the Fortitude save is successful.
Material Component: A copper wire shaped into a ring.

Now, as I see it, only something immune to electricity will not be effected by the stun. Can someone elaborate on this please?

[Eldest]

What needs to be explained?

[Chilingsworth]

Well, anything that is immune to stunning will also be unaffected by the stun.

As for wheather something immune to electricity would be, I believe that's the case (if a damaging effect can't cause damage, it doesn't generally get to cause any secondary status effect, either, iirc.)

I could just be remembering the rules for injury poison, though.

Also, in which book did you find this spell. (Oh, and I'm assuming it's a D&D 3.5 spell. Is this correct?)

[Melcar]

How or what is not subject to the stun effect of the spell. And as I see it, only creatures immune to electricity is.

[Chilingsworth]

How or what is not subject to the stun effect of the spell. And as I see it, only creatures immune to electricity is.

Well, way I see it, there are five categories of creatures that won't be affected by the stunning:

1. Creatures immune to stunning outright

2. Creatures Immune to electricity

3. Creatures with enough electricity resistance to take no damage from the spell

4. Creatures that fail their saves and thus fall unconcious

5. Creatures the spell kills outright.

Also, again: what book is this spell from?

[Melcar]

The spell is from Encyclopedia Arcane (Evocation)

[Chilingsworth]

The spell is from Encyclopedia Arcane (Evocation)

Ah, 3rd party? That explains why I've never heard of it.

Also means there's almost exactly zero chance of my ever getting to use it.
Meh, probably just as well. :smallamused:

[Melcar]

I like usig anything I can get my hands on. To me it adds flavor!

[Flickerdart]

3. Creatures with enough electricity resistance to take no damage from the spell

Taking damage from the spell is not a trigger for the stun, so no amount of resistance will save you.

[Melcar]

Taking damage from the spell is not a trigger for the stun, so no amount of resistance will save you.

So only immunity to electricity will save you?

I know there are spells like Spell Reflection that would stop the spell. You could also counter the spell but besides that. I don’t see any way out of falling to the ground in agony. Do you???

[Chilingsworth]

Taking damage from the spell is not a trigger for the stun, so no amount of resistance will save you.

Ah. Was I confusing the specific rules for injury poisons/diseases as a general rule, then?:smallsigh:

[Eldest]

So only immunity to electricity will save you?

I know there are spells like Spell Reflection that would stop the spell. You could also counter the spell but besides that. I don’t see any way out of falling to the ground in agony. Do you???

Spell Resistance. Don't get hit. Be immune to stun. Fail your save and become unconscious. Those are your options for not getting stunned.

[Melcar]

Would you guys allow it?

[Garan]

I want to chime in just to add to the amount of people with the same avatar here.

But I probably wouldn't. It's too similar to other spells, and I would have to see it in action to know whether it is properly levelled. If you are insisting to your DM that he should allow it, this is something DMs hate and you probably won't get your way. If you are a DM asking whether you should allow it, it's up to you whether what it adds is worth the risk.

[Khedrac]

If any DM allows this spell they are just not thinking straight (or about to hammer you far too hard for your level).

Compare the spell with Power Word Stun (which is 3 levels higher):
Range - same
Limit on what it can stun: not immune to electricity v <151hp
Duration of stun - PWS is better
Other effects : damage + possible unconciousness v none

It's a far better spell and 3 levels lower

[Siosilvar]

The damage on that is secondary to the ridiculously long-duration debuffs. The spell is basically no-save-just-lose, outside of things immune to stun. Change the stun to 1d3 rounds on a failed save and none on a successful one (with no unconsciousness) and it seems like a reasonable 7th level spell - compare disintegrate at a level lower and power word stun at a level higher.

[Melcar]

Im both a DM and a player... not in the same campaign though! :smallsmile:

My concern is, that I like to add alot of things to the game, both as a Dm where I feel, that it adds flovor and gives depth to the game and as a player (wizard) where I like powerful spells. But Im not sure this one will help either.

[Daftendirekt]

I was in the library last night, in the restricted section, and I read something rather odd about a rare piece of magic. It’s called as I understand it:
Arcing Death I came across the spell while reading and I didn't fully understand it.

Arcing Death
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft.+ 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: 1 target
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
One of the more unpleasant spells in the lightning specialist’s arsenal, this potent attack spell surrounds a target with several coruscating bands of electricity that deal 1d8 points of damage per caster level to the target, with a Fortitude save for half damage. In addition, the target is knocked unconscious for 1 round per caster level if the Fortitude save is failed, and is stunned for 1d6 rounds even if the Fortitude save is successful.
Material Component: A copper wire shaped into a ring.

Now, as I see it, only something immune to electricity will not be effected by the stun. Can someone elaborate on this please?

I'm not sure what you were reading, Melcar, but this is very dark stuff. Very dark indeed.

[andromax]

It's not even close to balanced imo.

If it didn't do any damage it would be a huge upgrade to Deep Slumber.

The auto stun is just dumb..

Stay away from this source material.

[Melcar]

It's not even close to balanced imo.

If it didn't do any damage it would be a huge upgrade to Deep Slumber.

The auto stun is just dumb..

Stay away from this source material.

Are you saying you dont like it?? :smallwink:

[Melcar]

Arcing Death
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft.+ 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: 1 target
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
One of the more unpleasant spells in the lightning specialist’s arsenal, this potent attack spell surrounds a target with several coruscating bands of electricity that deal 1d8 points of damage per caster level to the target, with a Fortitude save for half damage. In addition, the target is knocked unconscious for 1 round per caster level if the Fortitude save is failed, and is stunned for 1d6 rounds even if the Fortitude save is successful.
Material Component: A copper wire shaped into a ring.



Would I be correct if I said that undead and constructs were immune to the spell, since its a fortitute save?

[Invader]

Yeah this is really unbalanced. Drop the automatic stun and reduce the unconscious effect to 1d4 rounds and it would be a little more reasonable.

[Invader]

Would I be correct if I said that undead and constructs were immune to the spell, since its a fortitute save?

Im not entirely sure. They'd either immune or be able to take the damage but be immune to the effects. I don't don't know if the damage is an effect of the spell or just the unconsciousness and/or stun.

[Agincourt]

Are you saying you dont like it?? :smallwink:

As a player or as a DM? As a player, I'd take it for the stun effect alone. Everything else just make it that much more ridiculous. As a DM, I would not allow this spell as is. It would definitely have to be higher level. Maybe level 8 or 9.

[Flickerdart]

Would I be correct if I said that undead and constructs were immune to the spell, since its a fortitute save?
Yes. Because the spell is not marked as Fortitude half (object; see text), it is incapable of affecting them.

[TuggyNE]

Would I be correct if I said that undead and constructs were immune to the spell, since its a fortitute save?

Amusingly, yes, you would.

That particular rule is so terribly general it's pathetic.

[Melcar]

Amusingly, yes, you would.

That particular rule is so terribly general it's pathetic.

But the stun is a (side)-effect of the high electrical damage. And since undead is not immune to electricity they(undead) should take the damage. Since you cant stun or knock out objects, they (again undead) wont be effected by the secondary effect!

That to me is the eay this should play out... any comments???

[Flickerdart]

But the stun is a (side)-effect of the high electrical damage. And since undead is not immune to electricity they(undead) should take the damage. Since you cant stun or knock out objects, they (again undead) wont be effected by the secondary effect!

That to me is the eay this should play out... any comments???
Irrelevant. The spell offers a Fortitude save and does not affect objects, so they're immune.

[Melcar]

Irrelevant. The spell offers a Fortitude save and does not affect objects, so they're immune.

But the electricity affects objects!

[Flickerdart]

But the electricity affects objects!
No it doesn't. Without the (object) tag in a spell's saving throw line, it can't even be cast on an object.

[Melcar]

No it doesn't. Without the (object) tag in a spell's saving throw line, it can't even be cast on an object.

Well it says one target. That could be any target unless it says one living target it might be objects.

[Flickerdart]

Well it says one target. That could be any target unless it says one living target it might be objects.
It mightn't.


(object)
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects.

Without the tag, a spell cannot be cast on an object.

[Melcar]

It mightn't.



Without the tag, a spell cannot be cast on an object.

Would you seriusly rule, that any damaging [elemental] evocation spell or [force] would not be able to affect lets say a door or a vase, jar or a wine glass because is doest say object in the saving throw line???

Ofc I know that most evocation spell with an elemental discripter is a reflex save, but overlook that now, at this moment to answer the question?

[Flickerdart]

Would you seriusly rule, that any damaging [elemental] evocation spell or [force] would not be able to affect lets say a door or a vase, jar or a wine glass because is doest say object in the saving throw line???

Ofc I know that most evocation spell with an elemental discripter is a reflex save, but overlook that now, at this moment to answer the question?
Most of those spells are area of effect spells, and thus don't need the descriptor because they don't target anything. The rest have provisions for being used against objects. Some, like Ray of Frost, do not, but it deals no damage to objects anyway because cold deals 1/4 damage and D&D rounds down. Magic Missile specifically can't be targeted at objects.

Rules are rules, even for poorly thought-out spells. Considering that this spell stuns targets, it's perfectly reasonable to model it as a taser. Try to tase a door, and see how long it takes to destroy it. I'll wait.

[Melcar]

Most of those spells are area of effect spells, and thus don't need the descriptor because they don't target anything. The rest have provisions for being used against objects. Some, like Ray of Frost, do not, but it deals no damage to objects anyway because cold deals 1/4 damage and D&D rounds down. Magic Missile specifically can't be targeted at objects.

Rules are rules, even for poorly thought-out spells. Considering that this spell stuns targets, it's perfectly reasonable to model it as a taser. Try to tase a door, and see how long it takes to destroy it. I'll wait.

Im not sure I agree totally. Lightning Bolt, does damage doors, so I would deem Arcing Death's electrical damage. Because you get that damage wether or not you save, or have immunity to stun.

[jindra34]

Im not sure I agree totally. Lightning Bolt, does damage doors, so I would deem Arcing Death's electrical damage. Because you get that damage wether or not you save, or have immunity to stun.

Your still missing the point that creatures lacking a CON score are immune to any effect that offers a fortitude save and does not state it can effect objects. And that spell would be pushing the limits of a 9th level spell do to its effects and the fact that it does uncapped d8's of damage.

[ericgrau]

Yes but the solution to that is for the spell to state that it can damage objects, like any electricity spell should.

Undead are still immune to stunning though.

[jindra34]

Yes but the solution to that is for the spell to state that it can damage objects, like any electricity spell should.

Undead are still immune to stunning though.

This isn't homebrew here. We aren't offering advice on how to make the spell better, we are explaining how (a 3rd party, relatively OP, and horribly written) spell works. So no adding or changing tags or descriptors.

[ericgrau]

Oh I thought we were past that point already, on account that the horrible 3rd party spell was horribly broken and makes no sense anyway.

Well then. Undead are immune to the entire spell, objects cannot even be damaged by the gigantic hot bolts of electricty, and everyone else without SR has no hope of winning.

[Melcar]

Whould anything change if the element changed to fire or acid, like an Arch Mage would be able to do? Whoud that change anything?

[jindra34]

Whould anything change if the element changed to fire or acid, like an Arch Mage would be able to do? Whoud that change anything?

That would be a definite no.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the object targetting issue; note that it's only targetted spells that have that restriction. A spell has to have both a target line and the (object) tag in its save line to aim at an object. If it has a target line but no object tag it can't hit an object. If it has no target line, then it's not a targetted spell and doesn't need the (object) tag.

Ligthning bolt doesn't have a target line, it's an AoE. It can be hurled into objects just fine, provided they aren't attended. Feel free to zap-fry a wooden door with that spell. Just realize that since the one in the OP is a targetted spell that doesn't have the (object) tag that the same door is perfectly safe from it.