[3.5] Ways to learn spells from a different class list

[sleepyphoenixx]

What options are there for learning a spell of a different class list?

I know of Wyrm Wizards Spell Research ability for arcane casters and the Divine Magician ACF for clerics. Are there any others?

[Gavinfoxx]

Be an Archivist!

[Yuki Akuma]

Be an Archivist!

They don't learn spells from other class lists.

Their class list is just "Yes".

[sleepyphoenixx]

To clarify, i'm not looking for a class that can learn any spell.
What im interested in are things like giving Guidance of the Avatar to a Rogue/Wiz/Unseen Seer or Body outside Body to a Wildshaping Druid.

[Urpriest]

Unseen Seer can grab Divinations from off their spell list, since you brought it up.

[Morcleon]

There are some classes with advanced learning class features...

There's the Extra Spell feat (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/extra-spell--1044/). Debatable if you can get spells off another list (seems to suggest that you can, though).

There's also the drakehelm (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/drake-helm), an Eberron item. Gives four extra spells known up to fourth level.

[Curmudgeon]

There's the Extra Spell feat (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/extra-spell--1044/). Debatable if you can get spells off another list (seems to suggest that you can, though).
How would you "suggest" that would work? That is, what's the rule to let you determine the Bard level of a spell like Control Water? For a Wizard or Sorcerer that's a level 6 spell. For a Druid or Cleric that's a level 4 spell. Where's the rule which specifies the Bard level of some spell which isn't on the Bard spell list?
Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Or, to put it another way, what's the highest level Druid spell a Bard can currently cast? Because you've got to answer that — with an actual number — before you can determine "one lower than" that; Extra Spell gives you no benefit until you can do that arithmetic.

[Morcleon]

How would you "suggest" that would work? That is, what's the rule to let you determine the Bard level of a spell like Control Water? For a Wizard or Sorcerer that's a level 6 spell. For a Druid or Cleric that's a level 4 spell. Where's the rule which specifies the Bard level of some spell which isn't on the Bard spell list?

There is no set rule. You could technically pick either the higher or lower.


Or, to put it another way, what's the highest level Druid spell a Bard can currently cast? Because you've got to answer that — with an actual number — before you can determine "one lower than" that; Extra Spell gives you no benefit until you can do that arithmetic.

A 16th level bard knows 6th level spells. Thus, with the extra spell feat, you may learn a druid spell up to 5th level.

[Curmudgeon]

There is no set rule. You could technically pick either the higher or lower.
Then you could also pick "42" as the level, for any spell, if there's no rule.

[Morcleon]

Then you could also pick "42" as the level, for any spell, if there's no rule.

Except for the fact that control water is either a 4th or 6th level spell. Also, a bard is incapable of casting 42nd level spells.

It's a matter of common sense and discussing it with your DM. :smallwink:

[Story]

Extra Spell was errata'd to only be from your class list, making it pretty much useless.

Recaster also gets 2 spells from any list. It's like Wyrm Wizard but you only lose one level and it's restricted to Changelings.

Rainbow Servant gets the entire Cleric list.

[Zeful]

A 16th level bard knows 6th level BARD spells. Thus, with the extra spell feat, you may learn a BARD spell up to 5th level.

Corrections in red.

[WhatBigTeeth]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19855390/Ways_to_Expand_a_Spell_List,_resurrected

[Sacrieur]

I always thought wizards could learn other spells through RP means, you were just limited when you leveled up and selected spells.

I think there's a spell that allows you extract spells from someone's blood.

[Curmudgeon]

Except for the fact that control water is either a 4th or 6th level spell.
Control Water is a 4th level Druid Spell and a 6th level Sorcerer spell, but that says nothing about its Bard level.
Also, a bard is incapable of casting 42nd level spells.What does that have to do with Extra Spell? Should a Ranger get Miracle as a level 4 spell because they're incapable of casting 9th level spells? "42" is the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_%28Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy%29#Answer _to_the_Ultimate_Question_of_Life.2C_the_Universe. 2C_and_Everything_.2842.29). That, at least, is a citable reference. What rule can you cite which gives the corresponding Bard level for a Druid spell?

[WhatBigTeeth]

Because you've got to answer that — with an actual number — before you can determine "one lower than" that; Extra Spell gives you no benefit until you can do that arithmetic.
This argument becomes much less compelling when you acknowledge that the similar Expanded Knowledge feat raises the same unanswerable question, but still works on other classes' power lists.

[Zeful]

I always thought wizards could learn other spells through RP means, you were just limited when you leveled up and selected spells.

I think there's a spell that allows you extract spells from someone's blood.
Yes that is how the various wizard rules for spell scribing are supposed to work. It should be self-evident due to the wording of that sentence that that's not how it works in practice at all.

And technically, any class can learn any spell, but requires DM approval after you have spent something like 1000 gold and week per spell level.

[Story]

Why would anyone go through that before getting DM approval? Or are you talking about a particularly vindicative DM screwing with the players?

[Zeful]

Why would anyone go through that before getting DM approval? Or are you talking about a particularly vindicative DM screwing with the players?

No, I'm talking about the actual spell research rules in the DMG. The player spends time and money to represent the cost of doing this kind of experimentation, and the DM decides if it actually works because 1.) this allows for the realistic approach as not all research is successful and 2.) relegating this to a check would be bad game design as players can make up all kinds of stupid spells.

In short, it's based on sensible story telling maxims that not everything the players do should just succeed because they are the players and that the DM should just give them things with no struggle. Which EVERYONE who ever comments on the rules misses as the point by several hundred billion light years, including you.

[Psyren]

This argument becomes much less compelling when you acknowledge that the similar Expanded Knowledge feat raises the same unanswerable question, but still works on other classes' power lists.

Because Expanded Knowledge explicitly allows this. Extra Spell does not.

Psionics are balanced around potentially any manifester (regardless of theme) being able to access any effect within their power level range. A psychic rogue can potentially summon, a kineticist can potentially heal, a psychic warrior can potentially shapeshift and an ardent can potentially blast. Magic was designed, if not to prevent the above outright, to at least require a few more hoops.

[docnessuno]

Quick! Hide this debtate before Toapat finds it!

On a more serious note, as already mentioned, the Recaster PRC can grab 2 spells from any spell list and add it to their main spellcasting list. And it's a pretty awesome PRC overall.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Because Expanded Knowledge explicitly allows this. Extra Spell does not.
You appear to be responding to the argument that Extra Spell allows access to other spell lists because it is similar to Expanded Knowledge, which does that. That's not my argument.

My post is meant to illustrate that Curmudgeon's argument is baseless because it is founded on an assumption which is simply not true: that all the details of cross-list materials would be made clear in the feat if cross-list spell learning were allowed. Expanded Knowledge provides an easy illustration that such an assumption shouldn't be the case: a Psychic Rogue could take Expanded Knowledge for Graft Weapon and be in exactly the situation Curmudgeon describes with Control Water, but that situation would not imply that Graft Weapon is an inappropriate selection for the feat.

[Psyren]

The problem is that Extra Spell does not override the RAW of the given class. For example, wizard was mentioned in this thread:


A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Extra Spell does not override this rule; You get a new spell, but it doesn't say anything that allows you to ignore this.\

Compare to the Psion:


Choose the powers known from the psion power list, or from the list of powers of your chosen discipline. You cannot choose powers from restricted discipline lists other than your own discipline list. You can choose powers from disciplines other than your own if they are not on a restricted discipline list. (Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge do allow a psion to learn powers from the lists of other disciplines or even other classes.) A psion can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level.

And even without the explanation given within the Psion entry itself, Expanded Knowledge provides this clarity on its own.

[JBento]

Depends on how you want to interpret wordings.

Spellcraft skill says that, if you're a Wizard, you can learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll.

In Arcane Magical Writings section, it's further mentioned that after you decipher a writing, "If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll." UMD is mentioned nowhere in this section, so your guess as to HOW is as good as mine (since this is under ARCANE MW section, one can assume it refers to Arcane scrolls only, but between nagas, sorcerer-casting dragons, and cooperative item crafting, that's not an impedimento to, well, anything worth mentioning, especially becauseeeeeee...

...sorcerers and bards can do this out of the box, as noted: "With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

Long story short, it's all up for grabs, though perhaps the "nos" grab a few more than the "yesses."

[Psyren]

Depends on how you want to interpret wordings.

Spellcraft skill says that, if you're a Wizard, you can learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll.

In Arcane Magical Writings section, it's further mentioned that after you decipher a writing, "If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll." UMD is mentioned nowhere in this section, so your guess as to HOW is as good as mine (since this is under ARCANE MW section, one can assume it refers to Arcane scrolls only, but between nagas, sorcerer-casting dragons, and cooperative item crafting, that's not an impedimento to, well, anything worth mentioning, especially becauseeeeeee...

...sorcerers and bards can do this out of the box, as noted: "With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

Long story short, it's all up for grabs, though perhaps the "nos" grab a few more than the "yesses."

The key word in your quote is attempt - if the scroll's spell is not on your list+you don't use UMD, that attempt will automatically fail. I can attempt to climb Mount Everest, that doesn't mean I'll actually make it up there.

"With permission" for sorcs and bards may as well be homebrew. Of course it's all up for grabs if you allow that.

[Garan]

There is Limited Wish which can duplicate any spell level 5th or lower, (Wish does 6th or lower, but is 9th as opposed to 7th so it's less effective in this usage).

[Story]

Of course, the argument's largely irrelevant, since Extra Spell was errata'd to specifically not let you get other spells.


There is Limited Wish which can duplicate any spell level 5th or lower, (Wish does 6th or lower, but is 9th as opposed to 7th so it's less effective in this usage).

Yeah but they have those awful XP components. Miracle on the other hand is amazing. Probably the best spell in the game apart from Shapechange.

[Curmudgeon]

Of course, the argument's largely irrelevant, since Extra Spell was errata'd to specifically not let you get other spells.
... except it wasn't. You're probably thinking of the FAQ, which most specifically isn't official errata. Those answers, like Customer Service responses, are just the personal opinions of some guys who were Wizards of the Coast employees at the time. In fact, the only part of the FAQ that's official is the selection of questions, chosen from many thousands of submissions to illustrate particular rules issues.

[Story]

Oh sorry, I thought it was in the errata, not the FAQ. Nevermind.

[Clistenes]

I would say that, using the method of research of new spells described in the DMG I think you could:

If you are a cleric, learn any druid spell at the same level.

If you are a druid, learn any cleric spell at the same level.

If you are a cleric, learn your domain spells as normal cleric spells with level +1 (for example, a 5th level domain spell can be learned as a 6th level cleric spell).

If you are a cleric, you can learn a wizard spell as a cleric spell with level +2 (I have taken Antimagic Field as inspiration).

If you are a wizard, you can learn a cleric or druid spell with level +2 (except cure spells or heal).

Of course, it's just my opinion, and not an official rule.

[Garan]

I would say that, using the method of research of new spells described in the DMG I think you could:

If you are a cleric, learn any druid spell at the same level.

If you are a druid, learn any cleric spell at the same level.

If you are a cleric, learn your domain spells as normal cleric spells with level +1 (for example, a 5th level domain spell can be learned as a 6th level cleric spell).

If you are a cleric, you can learn a wizard spell as a cleric spell with level +2 (I have taken Antimagic Field as inspiration).

If you are a wizard, you can learn a cleric or druid spell with level +2 (except cure spells or heal).

Of course, it's just my opinion, and not an official rule.

According to this, there is no point in a cleric using this for any 7th level, since they can just miracle that.

[Acanous]

According to this, there is no point in a cleric using this for any 7th level, since they can just miracle that.

Well yeah, but then you're a 17th level caster with Miracle.

I'm pretty sure this is intended to help out 9th level Clerics learn Fireball etc.

[Clistenes]

According to this, there is no point in a cleric using this for any 7th level, since they can just miracle that.


Well yeah, but then you're a 17th level caster with Miracle.

I'm pretty sure this is intended to help out 9th level Clerics learn Fireball etc.

Yes, this would allow a cleric to cast teleport as a 7º level spell and invisibility as a fourth level spell (of course you would have to study for 7 weeks to get teleport and for 4 weeks to get invisibility.

By the way, is there any trick a sorcerer can do to create scrolls with spells he doesn't know if he has a spellbook with those spells?