Killing a Wizard.

[EugeneVoid]

I know that killing a wizard is nigh impossible. At least an intelligent wizard. A smart wizard will be nigh unstoppable, because he's never flat-footed (Foresight), always goes first (Celerity), and can just timestop to buff the **** out of himself and blast away (Maze, etc), summons, set up walls, whatever. Even if you do manage to kill him, it's probably a simulacrum or an astral projection or whatever. My question is, what is the only possible way to fight [High-Level spellcasters] without being a spellcaster yourself? Is it possible? I was thinking of ways to make it harder for them to cast spells like grappling, and silencing, and stuff. Anti-magic fields? Extreme initiative modifiers, Eternal Blade (island in time), and Uber-charging?

[Rogue Shadows]

Be Pun-Pun or the DM. That's about it.

[Toy Killer]

I find being the DM helps :smalltongue:

[EugeneVoid]

Fine, let's get rid of the factor of simulacrums, mindraping people to act as him, astral projections, and all that jazz. Is it possible to kill him, if he himself is actually there?

[Story]

Not likely. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267555)

[Toy Killer]

It's unfortunate, but true.

In the end, the wizard's design is to have phenomenal cosmic power in a very fragile box.

However, in making that fragile box, WotC kept augmenting it and adding to it's integrity until the Fighter looked up from his whetstone and asked "Wait, what's my job now?" and the wizard looks back and Roars "Silence!".


kill his familiar and he loses a large amount of power, staple in mythologies from around the world. Losing a familiar in the game: he might lose a recently gained level.

Silence him and he can't cast spells! and... here's a list of spells you can cast while silent.

No spell book! Steal it and make him a commoner tomorrow! Oh? my book? Which one? I have a plethora of books and magical defenses over every single one. It's only true weakness is DM Fiat!

Fine, set up conditions where he can't use magic! Grappling in an antimagic field!... Or... the Wizard will trigger any number of contigencies he's set up for this very situation. and that very situation and the other very situations...

He has no hit points, throw barbarians at him until he dies! Oh, did you think the Wizard doesn't have friends of his own? even if he was by himself, he has plenty of summon spells at hand for just this kinds of situation (Which, honestly, is almost any kind of situation).

Luck! Pure honest to goodness luck! He can't make every save, go first every time and win every fight (Except for when he can), eventually he has to need more scrolls to keep going, more time for casting and will eventually die! or he just leaves, gathers himself back together again and swings back for round two. It's a battle of attrition and you he's back to full in 8ish hours.


In the end, it's just easier to smile and nod and tell the wizard he's so very pretty and we all appreciate the fact the cosmos runs through his veins while the rogue picks locks and the barbarian breaks things and the party does party stuff together.

[Twilightwyrm]

First, lets establish something: This "wizards are unkillable/uncapturable" thing people casually toss around only applies to wizards in the 15-16+ range (depending on what they prepared, and when they cast it). They become more difficult to kill/capture at 9th level when Teleport comes online, but Dimensional Anchor, or massive first round damage mitigates this. So killing them before this level basically hinges on you getting the surprise round, not actually as hard as it sounds. Second, let's establish something further: wizards are not actually that difficult to kill, per se. More so than many other classes perhaps, but barring them knowing your exact plan of attack, killing them is very doable. The issue is capturing or catching them, because they can probably escape danger more easily than any other class, other T1s included. So for the moment, I will focus on this. Third, we should finally establish something about wizard intelligence, especially with regards to NPC wizard: The high Intelligence common to wizards does NOT necessarily make them super prepared, super observant, super contingency planners, or any of these traits that one would give them to justify out predicting everything you do. A bit more so than most people perhaps, but a wizard is a scientist, scholar, or the like, not an omnicompetent superspy. Much like you'd expect of actual scientists or scholars, wizards are individual who have dedicated their lives to the study of something, and even high level wizards who have fought hordes of enemies are realistically still going to spend much more of their time occupied with the implications of thus and such a bit of research on the school of conjuration, or whether this spell or that spell would be a good candidate for further research and development, or (if they are indeed villainous), reviewing the elements of their master plan, than they are on whether or not some obscure type of warrior can penetrate their magical defenses. Characters and DMs (and especially DMs) should take this into account when establishing a wizard as a villain, barring some in game reason for the wizard to be as paranoid as some would make them out to be.
Now, a high level Wizard may indeed have Foresight, but it only last for 3 and a half hours (at 20th level), and they have no way of knowing when to cast it (depending on the nature of the "future" in your campaign, and how predictable it actually it). This is unless it is Extended (in which case it is about 6 1/2 hours), which depending on the wizard it can be, but contrary to popular belief, there is no reason to believe every wizard does (NPC ones anyways). Assuming this can be circumvented, you still have to deal with the Celerity+Time Stop combination (which can allow for a Teleport to run away, at least). The manners of outright countering this are...slim to none, so if you are visibly more powerful than this wizard, you aren't likely to catch them. There was an item, in the Magic Item Compendium if I recall correctly, that allowed a person to steal an enemy's spell as an immediate action (and didn't require actual spell casting ability). In theory, such an item would be used to steal the Greater Celerity, or the Time Stop depending, and use it to lock down the wizard in some manner. I say in theory, because I cannot seem to find said item at the moment, so unless you do, "some item that does something like this" won't likely be enough to convince your DM to let you acquire one.
So at this point your best bet is the wizard having the same hubris about their own power that many seem to share, and opt to either buff them self and attack you, or better yet, just attack you. Assuming you survive the attack (not as hard as it sounds), you (and hopefully the allies that you have (did I mention this probably shouldn't be attempted alone?)) can proceed to either negate their defenses and cut off escape options, or if you are able, beat them into dust. If they are Astrally Projected, and on the Astral Plane, you can cut their silver chord with a githyanki silver sword. If not on the Astral Plane, you can either Dispel their physical form (doesn't solve your problem, but gets them back to their original body, albeit temporarily). If they are a cloned, capturing the main individual allows for location of the clone, and killing leaves them vulnerable for 24 hours. A Simulacrum will have only half the wizards levels, meaning it won't have access to high level spells, and may not even have access to teleport. All this would take a decent amount of planning, and some good luck, but it is indeed doable.

Short Version: Wizards are harder to catch than they are to kill. If they run, there is little you can do. If they fight, assuming you can weather their initial attack, killing them becomes much easier.

[EugeneVoid]

What is a list of persisted buffs that a wizard will have on? (Wizard 20, not incantatrix or anything).

[Darth Stabber]

Given that high level wizards generally have high ranks in a variety of knowledge skills, they are likely to understand the the threats posed by a wide variety of creatures, and thus have several basic counterstratagems ready to go. Also the school of divination is likely to present a very strong defence (forewarned is forearmed), allowing a higher likelyhood of having more specificly tailored counters readied. That being said I do love to callenge players with paranoid wizards from time to time. Infact most wizards above 15th level tend to have very high levels of paranoia when I run games, but I rarely use them, preferring psionics, martial adepts, meldshapers, and spontaneous casters.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What is a list of persisted buffs that a wizard will have on? (Wizard 20, not incantatrix or anything).

Protection from evil maybe.

Without using a prestige class to apply it to higher level spells, persistent isn't worth the feat slot.

We've actually been discussing this the last couple of days in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267555)

[Flavel]

What about a poison that damages intelligence?

I'm not up on the poisons but I believe a wizard's fort save is usually low.

If a wizard's int score dropped substantially that could complicate his/her/it's ability to cast the higher level spells.

[Story]

Having to eat or breathe is for wimps.

[Flickerdart]

We already have a wide assortment of active wizard-slaying threads for your perusal:
ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265730) takes it all the way with the maximum amount of cheese possible...success is arguable.
How to Make a Wizard-killer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267555) explores less extreme, almost equally unsuccessful options.
Why play anything else? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267020) discusses exactly why wizards are strong and where they might be lacking (hint: nowhere much) in comparison with other classes.

{Scrubbed}

[Phelix-Mu]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Wait, is there a rule about not duplicating existing topics?

So, killing a high-level wizard. I see a couple successful options out there.

1.) Lure wizard into a very large dead magic zone. Weakness of this approach is that they don't always exist in every setting, and that the wizard may know about them. However, you could probably engineer some magic-intensive method for dropping a wizard into a dead magic area, but this basically goes to my second suggestion...

2.) Make friends with or be a better wizard. No matter how strong someone is, it's a truism that there is always a bigger, badder bad*&% out there. Making friends with this superior wizard (cleric/druid/reasonable substitution) is far from impossible. Convincing the better wizard to kill the target wizard might take more doing, but hey, this is what role playing is for.

3.) The ultimate bypass is to go right to the source and pull an Elminster on the god/dess of magic in your setting. Sure, target wizard is superbad and scary, but you are sleeping with the god/dess that supplies target wizard with magical energy. Again, highly based on setting, but it probably stands a better chance of working than just gearing up a fighter and trying to oust Mr. Cosmos from his wizard throne.

[J-H]

Bait. What wizard will run away when he's all that stands between you and whatever he values more than his life (family, adventuring companions, city, etc)? Find out what he is willing to die for and then help him do it.

[Garan]

Be DM, but don't be unreasonable about it.

I tend to be very strict about with books are allowed. This isn't intended to be domineering, this is intended to make it less complicated. I also use a modified version of UA's spell point system (wizards prepare spells to fill their allotted SP for the day, and then act as normal). When a player starts to do things that might make them unkillable, I take a look at how my system is structured. Is there something they're missing (that there is a simple counter to what he is doing)? Or is this a legitimate exploit in the rules? If so, what is allowing them to do this? Is there a serious imbalance that needs to be addressed (the SP system I have does that to an extent)

So when you ask how to kill a wizard, first why you need to ask that question.

['Able' Xanthis]

You need a sword. A very Special sword. It is called the Artblade one of the Three Great Elfblades of the Cormanthyr Elven Empire. When drawn this Sword will judge you against a set of values, one being that you be of elven blood. When drawn by an unworthy one, or someone who has no elven blood, the person becomes wrapped in a dead-magic zone for 3d6 years.

After this find an Artificer/Archivist of some skill and ask for an Everdancing Staff of Heavenly Lightning that strikes where you point and activates on a command word, never touch this staff yourself. Have a friend activate it and scry on you whilst you fight the enemy with Special Celestial Lightning Artillery Backing you up.

This should help out a little, it does mix 3.0 and 3.5 so most don't let it happen I'm sure, but this is the method me and my friends used to kill the Evil Overlord of Darkness in a campaign once. It was fun trying to find all the right peaces and stuff.

To find the swords current whereabouts;
Bardic Knowledge Check DC; 48
Knowledge (Arcana/Nobility/History) DC; 55

[Story]

How does the field work exactly? How big is it? It sounds like you'd run into all the same problems an AMF has.

['Able' Xanthis]

How does the field work exactly? How big is it? It sounds like you'd run into all the same problems an AMF has.

It's about the depth of a Mage Armor, a field that is literally half an inch from you outer most possessions. No magic can affect you within it, that means healing fails as well as other things. It stops rays of screw you, save-or-die, and all effects that are created by magic. The only effects that stick are battlefield control, which is still a mother but that does drop a normal magic users powers considerably.

[Flickerdart]

It's about the depth of a Mage Armor, a field that is literally half an inch from you outer most possessions. No magic can affect you within it, that means healing fails as well as other things. It stops rays of screw you, save-or-die, and all effects that are created by magic. The only effects that stick are battlefield control, which is still a mother but that does drop a normal magic users powers considerably.
Surrounding yourself in a dead magic zone is the stupidest thing you could do when fighting a wizard. Because then he just casts Forcecage surrounded by Walls of Iron or Stone and then you suffocate, or buries you under a mile of earth with Undermaster. If he's feeling feisty, he'll set the air around you on fire before doing this. A competent opponent can easily avoid this tactic through magic items (immunity to suffocation or a teleportation effect) but you cut off those avenues of escape for some reason.

['Able' Xanthis]

Surrounding yourself in a dead magic zone is the stupidest thing you could do when fighting a wizard. Because then he just casts Forcecage surrounded by Walls of Iron or Stone and then you suffocate, or buries you under a mile of earth with Undermaster. If he's feeling feisty, he'll set the air around you on fire before doing this. A competent opponent can easily avoid this tactic through magic items (immunity to suffocation or a teleportation effect) but you cut off those avenues of escape for some reason.

As I said above the power of battlefeild control is still in the wizards arsenal, a powerful thing it is. Forcecage can't effect the DMZ as the DMZ is an area of effect, in this case centered on the subject, where magic just stops working. This isn't suppression or anything like that it is an area where the magic doesn't exist. While in the DMZ you could walk through a Sphere of Annihilation as it is an affect created by or of magic, and the Sphere would be disrupted by you doing so. Walls would work though and yes you give up the power of Magic Items when you draw the sword and are proven Unworthy.

This example is literally the big surprise. That one moment of the Evil Bad Guy Wizard slamming two tons of hurt down on the fool who had the audacity to enter his throne room and call him out. Then that fool puts three feet of steel in BBEG, then grapples and tries to beat the guy into submission. This tactic was literally all the characters in that game had left, and if giving up magic isn't desperate I don't know what is.

Your next argument is going to be "Oh, well you killed my Doom-bot!", right?

[TuggyNE]

Forcecage can't effect the DMZ as the DMZ is an area of effect, in this case centered on the subject, where magic just stops working. This isn't suppression or anything like that it is an area where the magic doesn't exist. While in the DMZ you could walk through a Sphere of Annihilation as it is an affect created by or of magic, and the Sphere would be disrupted by you doing so.

I'm a little puzzled by this, honestly, as I'm not aware of any rules distinction between a dead magic zone and an antimagic field, except the area involved. Given that force effects and artifacts such as the Sphere of Annihilation don't really care about the latter, are you quite certain this will do what you describe?

In any case, the usual tedious short list of counters to AMF'ed opponents shows up, perhaps a bit shorter than usual; damaging instantaneous conjurations like the Orb line and perhaps hail of stone, undead and construct minions, BFC instantaneous conjurations like the various Walls, called creatures, indirect action with telekinesis, and perhaps a few others. What's more, according to the apparent scope involved, some other tactics seem to be viable for once: summoning, buffing, maybe even using mind-controlled minions.

I for one have no desire to, with no magic items, spells, or powers, fight a wizard who's still capable of using wall of iron to hit me over the head, call up a solar to trash me with a big sword, or turn into a dragon and eat me.

[SowZ]

I'm a little puzzled by this, honestly, as I'm not aware of any rules distinction between a dead magic zone and an antimagic field, except the area involved. Given that force effects and artifacts such as the Sphere of Annihilation don't really care about the latter, are you quite certain this will do what you describe?

In any case, the usual tedious short list of counters to AMF'ed opponents shows up, perhaps a bit shorter than usual; damaging instantaneous conjurations like the Orb line and perhaps hail of stone, undead and construct minions, BFC instantaneous conjurations like the various Walls, called creatures, indirect action with telekinesis, and perhaps a few others. What's more, according to the apparent scope involved, some other tactics seem to be viable for once: summoning, buffing, maybe even using mind-controlled minions.

I for one have no desire to, with no magic items, spells, or powers, fight a wizard who's still capable of using wall of iron to hit me over the head, call up a solar to trash me with a big sword, or turn into a dragon and eat me.

Of course, like Batman, to beat him you have to catch him with something he didn't plan for. Perhaps the BBEG really didn't think of this and it was the element of surprise. Sure, you can optimize a little or just keep effects like that sword in mind and play smart to avoid such tactics. But it sounds like a cool end to the campaign and a good idea, depending on the situation.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about a poison that damages intelligence?

I'm not up on the poisons but I believe a wizard's fort save is usually low.

If a wizard's int score dropped substantially that could complicate his/her/it's ability to cast the higher level spells.

Poisons have the noteable issues of being both expensive and difficult to deliver. You have to be able to hit the wizard for there to be a chance of the poison taking hold and the int damage it does won't likely take enough off of his int to meaningfully effect his spellcasting at high levels, providing he hasn't come up with some form of immunity.

It's an effective low-level tactic, but it loses steam fairly quickly.

[Pilo]

Hire her/him for a quest then pay her/him with a very powerful magic staff which is cursed and act like a Sword, Berserking (ie Staff, Berserking).

[Norin]

Hire her/him for a quest then pay her/him with a very powerful magic staff which is cursed and act like a Sword, Berserking (ie Staff, Berserking).

The wizard would have plenty of options available to figure that one out i guess.

[Ravens_cry]

A social rogue could social engineer their way into the wizard's confidence and then kill them in their sleep with a coup de grâce.

[Norin]

A social rogue could social engineer their way into the wizard's confidence and then kill them in their sleep with a coup de grâce.

But the wizard is protected in his sleep too?

Alarm spells, etc.

[Yora]

How about a really big bomb? 40d6 sonic damage, no save.

[Ravens_cry]

But the wizard is protected in his sleep too?

Alarm spells, etc.

Like I said, social engineer. Find out the password and/or find a way to be inside the wards when cast (use your imagination:smallwink:) kill the wizard.

[Aharon]

Poisons have the noteable issues of being both expensive and difficult to deliver. You have to be able to hit the wizard for there to be a chance of the poison taking hold and the int damage it does won't likely take enough off of his int to meaningfully effect his spellcasting at high levels, providing he hasn't come up with some form of immunity.

It's an effective low-level tactic, but it loses steam fairly quickly.

For 26.400 gp, you can have a minor schema of Heroes' Feast. In addition to providing a delicious breakfast, it makes you immune to poison and fear. It's one of my go-to purchases if I play characters that care for a high standard of living, upt here with Magnificent Mansion. I think it can be reasonably bought from 9th level onward, even earlier if you contribute xp to crafting.

[Yora]

Poisons have the noteable issues of being both expensive and difficult to deliver. You have to be able to hit the wizard for there to be a chance of the poison taking hold and the int damage it does won't likely take enough off of his int to meaningfully effect his spellcasting at high levels, providing he hasn't come up with some form of immunity.
Poison gas. I don't think there is a way to teleport out or to activate a contingency spell before you have to make the first saving throw.

['Able' Xanthis]

Of course, like Batman, to beat him you have to catch him with something he didn't plan for. Perhaps the BBEG really didn't think of this and it was the element of surprise. Sure, you can optimize a little or just keep effects like that sword in mind and play smart to avoid such tactics. But it sounds like a cool end to the campaign and a good idea, depending on the situation.

That's basically it.


For 26.400 gp, you can have a minor schema of Heroes' Feast. In addition to providing a delicious breakfast, it makes you immune to poison and fear. It's one of my go-to purchases if I play characters that care for a high standard of living, upt here with Magnificent Mansion. I think it can be reasonably bought from 9th level onward, even earlier if you contribute xp to crafting.

Hmm, cool stuff, and a brilliant reasoning for its use.


Poison gas. I don't think there is a way to teleport out or to activate a contingency spell before you have to make the first saving throw.

If they are using Aharon's logic it'll be hard, but I can still spy those incubation periods biting some wizards in the bum. Serously there are some strange incubation times in this game, 3d4-3 days. Aharon's Wizard wouldn't feel a thing, maybe, unless he doesn't Hero's Feast while at home.

[Axier]

If the wizard hires anyone to do anything, pose as an assistant of some kind. House cleaner, something. Have prestidigitation from magical training, Minor creation as a psionic ability wiht hidden talent. Make poison, and kill him when he trusts you. You could do this at level 1 commoner, technically.

If the wizard never really trusts anyone, then come to him as a businessman. Encourage trust through trade. Unless the wizard is pure evil, he will likely still need something from the outside world honestly.

If the wizard is pure evil and never trusts anyone, then yea, you are pretty much boned, but they are still just human, and will make a mistake at some point.

[only1doug]

If the wizard hires anyone to do anything, pose as an assistant of some kind. House cleaner, something. Have prestidigitation from magical training, Minor creation as a psionic ability wiht hidden talent. Make poison, and kill him when he trusts you. You could do this at level 1 commoner, technically.

If the wizard never really trusts anyone, then come to him as a businessman. Encourage trust through trade. Unless the wizard is pure evil, he will likely still need something from the outside world honestly.

If the wizard is pure evil and never trusts anyone, then yea, you are pretty much boned, but they are still just human, and will make a mistake at some point.

And if the Wizard has access to Hero's feast (As Aharon's below for example), why would they ever not have immunity to poison, even on a non adventuring day?


For 26.400 gp, you can have a minor schema of Heroes' Feast. In addition to providing a delicious breakfast, it makes you immune to poison and fear. It's one of my go-to purchases if I play characters that care for a high standard of living, upt here with Magnificent Mansion. I think it can be reasonably bought from 9th level onward, even earlier if you contribute xp to crafting.

[Yora]

The big magic word is "if". To assassinate a wizard you need a plan to only kill this one wizard. Not a plan that could kill every wizard there could ever be.
All we are doing is mentioning an attack and then replying with a counter. But the wizards won't have the luxury to come up with a counter after the attack, they would have to have it in place before they know what's comming at them.

[Twilightwyrm]

Incidentally, getting access to Anti-Magic Ray (without another wizard or sorcerer, this is not easy) goes miles towards making your job easier. The wizard can still use spell trigger/completion items, but their contingencies are ineffective (or as ineffective as they would be if they were within an Anti-Magic Field),, their personal buffs are gone, and they can no longer cast spells, and unlike with Anti-Magic Fields, they can't just do the sensible thing and move out of it. (And you don't hurt yourself by trying to engage them in one) This is, of course, assuming a straight wizard with no PrCs to speak of.

[Elderand]

Take random peasent, mindrape it to love the wizard, abuse love's pain.
Make sure to have made yourself nigh impossible to scry beforehand.

I know it's cheesy but it is one of the few near sure fire way to kill a theoretical wizard who always has the perfect defense to everything prepared

[Story]

Hire her/him for a quest then pay her/him with a very powerful magic staff which is cursed and act like a Sword, Berserking (ie Staff, Berserking).

Analyze Dweomer


The big magic word is "if". To assassinate a wizard you need a plan to only kill this one wizard. Not a plan that could kill every wizard there could ever be.
All we are doing is mentioning an attack and then replying with a counter. But the wizards won't have the luxury to come up with a counter after the attack, they would have to have it in place before they know what's comming at them.

The point is that a high level Wizard is so versatile and powerful that they'll probably have most of these counters available all the time.

Plus Divination.

[Flickerdart]

As I said above the power of battlefeild control is still in the wizards arsenal, a powerful thing it is. Forcecage can't effect the DMZ as the DMZ is an area of effect, in this case centered on the subject, where magic just stops working. This isn't suppression or anything like that it is an area where the magic doesn't exist. While in the DMZ you could walk through a Sphere of Annihilation as it is an affect created by or of magic, and the Sphere would be disrupted by you doing so. Walls would work though and yes you give up the power of Magic Items when you draw the sword and are proven Unworthy.

This example is literally the big surprise. That one moment of the Evil Bad Guy Wizard slamming two tons of hurt down on the fool who had the audacity to enter his throne room and call him out. Then that fool puts three feet of steel in BBEG, then grapples and tries to beat the guy into submission. This tactic was literally all the characters in that game had left, and if giving up magic isn't desperate I don't know what is.

Your next argument is going to be "Oh, well you killed my Doom-bot!", right?
Wrong.

"A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell."

Antimagic doesn't affect Instantaneous Conjurations and Walls of Force, and Forcecage shares properties with it. Walls of Force can be used to suffocate the character instead of Forcecage, and he still wouldn't be able to escape. You also wouldn't be able to affect artifacts, so walking into a sphere of annihilation simply kills you dead.

[Yora]

The point is that a high level Wizard is so versatile and powerful that they'll probably have most of these counters available all the time.

Plus Divination.
People say that a lot, but never has anyone been able to show how it supposedly is done.

[Flickerdart]

People say that a lot, but never has anyone been able to show how it supposedly is done.
Scrolls. Bound or summoned minions with SLAs. Having loads and loads of spell slots simply for existing. When a single spell can shut down an encounter, those slots go a long way. And when they do run low, it's painfully simple to replenish them just by hopping into a Rope Trick as early as level 5 when you can Extend it, and at later levels, use an MMM or simply teleport back to home base. Every time he prepares spells, he can pick an entirely different layout from what he did last time, tailored for what he wants to do that day, and because of the mobility options available to him, he can make sure that thing is the only thing he does. He doesn't need to, though - most spells are a counter to a great many opponents.

It's really difficult to compete with something like that when you only get a choice of abilities upon gaining a level, and can't change those abilities without taking weeks to retrain.

[Twilightwyrm]

Scrolls. Bound or summoned minions with SLAs. Having loads and loads of spell slots simply for existing. When a single spell can shut down an encounter, those slots go a long way. And when they do run low, it's painfully simple to replenish them just by hopping into a Rope Trick as early as level 5 when you can Extend it, and at later levels, use an MMM or simply teleport back to home base. Every time he prepares spells, he can pick an entirely different layout from what he did last time, tailored for what he wants to do that day, and because of the mobility options available to him, he can make sure that thing is the only thing he does. He doesn't need to, though - most spells are a counter to a great many opponents.

It's really difficult to compete with something like that when you only get a choice of abilities upon gaining a level, and can't change those abilities without taking weeks to retrain.

So in other words, by relying almost entirely on outside help. Unless you make all those scrolls yourself, and unless you have a means of coercing absolute control over every one of those summoned minions at all times, you are relying on the good graces of someone to function as a "God", and in the case you describe, probably a great many someones. Even an Int of 30 is only gaining you a single extra 9th level spell slot, and given approximately half of your spells slots will be less than...omnipotent, to say the least, gaining a bunch of low level spell slots from a high Int only garners you so much.

[Hirax]

Psh, an int of 30 is for dilettantes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266107).

[Toy Killer]

Isn't it possible to disable summoning from occurring in particular areas? I thought Magic Circle Against _____ did, but looking at it, I see that I'm wrong.

[Story]

If you don't think having such defences is plausible, why not create a build and try a duel?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Isn't it possible to disable summoning from occurring in particular areas? I thought Magic Circle Against _____ did, but looking at it, I see that I'm wrong.

I recall seeing a feat or spell that repelled/hedged out elementals, and prevented their summoning in the affected area. ECS, maybe?

Might a forbidding effect disable summoning?

[Toy Killer]

Magic circle prevents them from crossing in, but doesn't prevent them from being summoned from within. Cast a separate way, it keeps them in but literally doesn't stop them from *poof*ing out (Unless you take extra time and Anchor them within it).

[Flickerdart]

So in other words, by relying almost entirely on outside help. Unless you make all those scrolls yourself
Level 1 bonus feat, baby.


and unless you have a means of coercing absolute control over every one of those summoned minions at all times
Necrotic Domination, bro.


and given approximately half of your spells slots will be less than...omnipotent, to say the least, gaining a bunch of low level spell slots from a high Int only garners you so much.
A 1st level spell (Silent Image) stops all mindless opponents in their tracks with no save. A 1st level spell (True Strike) practically guarantees an attack will hit. A 1st level spell (Obscuring Mist) lays down a cover that lets you get away or do something nasty without being seen. These are all useful throughout the game, and there are many more low-level spells like them. Just because you're high level doesn't mean all of your other spells have stopped being useful.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Like I said, social engineer. Find out the password and/or find a way to be inside the wards when cast (use your imagination:smallwink:) kill the wizard.
That still relies on the wizard not having mind-reading (and Dispel for that pesky ward against it), and not having a Contingent Dimension Door of "if anything is about to harm me, activate" (I'm not even going to bother with the rogue getting into the wizard's magical abode).

So in other words, by relying almost entirely on outside help. Unless you make all those scrolls yourself, and unless you have a means of coercing absolute control over every one of those summoned minions at all times, you are relying on the good graces of someone to function as a "God", and in the case you describe, probably a great many someones. Even an Int of 30 is only gaining you a single extra 9th level spell slot, and given approximately half of your spells slots will be less than...omnipotent, to say the least, gaining a bunch of low level spell slots from a high Int only garners you so much.

Level 1 wizard class feature: Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Also, Summon spells means Summon Monster. Bound? Well, this is more of an afterthought than anything, but carefully worded contracts and such work.

Oh, and this:

By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

[nedz]

Poisons have the noteable issues of being both expensive and difficult to deliver. You have to be able to hit the wizard for there to be a chance of the poison taking hold and the int damage it does won't likely take enough off of his int to meaningfully effect his spellcasting at high levels, providing he hasn't come up with some form of immunity.

It's an effective low-level tactic, but it loses steam fairly quickly.

No no no: you target his dump stat — Str or Cha or something.

It's like the Great Wyrm and Dex thing.

I'm not sure it will help all that much, but it is a better approach.

[nedz]

You might have more joy with a TWF SpellThief ?

You might be able to steal 7 spells with a full-attack, and Discover spell should tell you which ones to go for.

You just need a way of getting off a full round of sneak attacks.

[Flickerdart]

You just need a way of getting off a full round of sneak attacks.
See, this is exactly the problem. If you can reliably land a full round attack on a wizard, and you're not crap at dealing damage, he's dead - even though wizards tend to have a decent Constitution score, that HD is definitely not doing them any favours. Getting close to him and then being able to land your attacks is the difficult part.

[Twilightwyrm]

Level 1 bonus feat, baby.


I'm well aware of that, thank you. But unless you like eating the XP cost, relatively negligible as it may be for individual scrolls, the amount of scroll production you are talking about would take its toll. So like I said, unless you plan on doing all that yourself, you'll be wanting some assistance, even if it as simple as vendors in the campaign setting that are regularly supplying you.

[Flickerdart]

I'm well aware of that, thank you. But unless you like eating the XP cost, relatively negligible as it may be for individual scrolls, the amount of scroll production you are talking about would take its toll. So like I said, unless you plan on doing all that yourself, you'll be wanting some assistance, even if it as simple as vendors in the campaign setting that are regularly supplying you.
XP is a river - craft yourself down a level, and use the extra XP you get from encounters to craft more. Being behind isn't a huge deal when you're a wizard with a scroll case the size of a library.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Poison gas. I don't think there is a way to teleport out or to activate a contingency spell before you have to make the first saving throw.
As a DM, sure. How do you go about delivering poison gas as a would be assassin though?

If the wizard hires anyone to do anything, pose as an assistant of some kind. House cleaner, something. Have prestidigitation from magical training, Minor creation as a psionic ability wiht hidden talent. Make poison, and kill him when he trusts you. You could do this at level 1 commoner, technically.

If the wizard never really trusts anyone, then come to him as a businessman. Encourage trust through trade. Unless the wizard is pure evil, he will likely still need something from the outside world honestly.

If the wizard is pure evil and never trusts anyone, then yea, you are pretty much boned, but they are still just human, and will make a mistake at some point.
The problem with this idea, aside from the fact there are no instant kill poisons and even the most virulent con poisons won't get him on the first save, is that wizards can be entirely self-sufficient. Called creatures can be sent to gather resources, unseen servant takes care of basic house-work, and if he really must deal with other people he has ways of doing it from afar without ever putting himself in jeopardy. Taking down a wizard that's not an adventuring wizard is several times more difficult than taking out one that is and is almost entirely dependent on him making a mistake before he discovers you're after him. Once he knows he has an enemy actively pursuing his demise he'll start to take action against you.

No no no: you target his dump stat — Str or Cha or something.

It's like the Great Wyrm and Dex thing.

I'm not sure it will help all that much, but it is a better approach.

Even then you're looking at doing 8 points of ability damage before he can manage to undo the damage or buff his dump stat into being more difficult to hit. Poisons that do that much damage on the initial hit are rare and -very- expensive. You'd be better off getting him hooked on drugs and making your move when he's baked.

I'm not saying poison can't work, I'm just saying its high-risk, high-cost compared to many of its alternatives.

[Story]

Taking down a wizard that's not an adventuring wizard is several times more difficult than taking out one that is and is almost entirely dependent on him making a mistake before he discovers you're after him. Once he knows he has an enemy actively pursuing his demise he'll start to take action against you.

You can always attempt to lure him out with a giant book on a fishing rod.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Lots of ranks in Know (History) + Ancestral Relic to tap item creation rules for an item of Teleport Through Time?

[Twilightwyrm]

Level 1 wizard class feature: Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.
Also, Summon spells means Summon Monster. Bound? Well, this is more of an afterthought than anything, but carefully worded contracts and such work.


Scrolls cost XP. Even in small amounts, in order to maintain an adequate supply of these protections you can end up expending large amounts of XP. (To say nothing of scroll availability in the first place)

Summon Monster? That can do what exactly? Yes, you get access to some spells and SLAs, but they're hardly gamebreaking, or even in most cases particularly powerful, especially not as a consistent means of defense. No, the power of Summoning in this case is going to be the allies you can bind. And these allies must be negotiated with individually, and more to the point, must be relied upon to fulfill their negotiations. (It should be noted that the called creature is not, by the RAW anyways, actually under any compulsion to do anything you say, other than promising to preform the service or being compelled to listen to your offer. By the RAI it is likely intended, but there is no actual specified mechanic to force it to make good on that promise) So, like I said, you are depending on the good graces of, generally, a lot of someones.
As for the tidbit from Emperor Tippy, I've been on this form, I've seen it a million times. While it is a nice sentiment, it is really just a non-poetic ode to the virtues of wizards. As an actual argument for their power goes, it proves nothing. For example: I'm sure it is entirely possible for a sufficiently specialized Wizard/X to walk around with general protection from most harm. But saying it is the case, and demonstrating that it is the case, are very different matters, and a demonstration that quote is not. So, with all due respect to Emperor Tippy, I'm not sure what exactly his words prove here.

[Ravens_cry]

That still relies on the wizard not having mind-reading (and Dispel for that pesky ward against it), and not having a Contingent Dimension Door of "if anything is about to harm me, activate" (I'm not even going to bother with the rogue getting into the wizard's magical abode).

Slight of Hand, the Elephant statue focus. After all, there is no direct harm in not having it.
The rest is just social engineering. A high enough Bluff can get around general mind reading.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Slight of Hand, the Elephant statue focus. After all, there is no direct harm in not having it.

Ah, there's a focus. Well, Eschew Materials if it works, a Contingency against pickpocketing if it doesn't.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can always attempt to lure him out with a giant book on a fishing rod.
That's definitely an idea, though something a bit more thought out in regards to a bait and attack plan might be in order.:smallamused:

Scrolls cost XP. Even in small amounts, in order to maintain an adequate supply of these protections you can end up expending large amounts of XP. (To say nothing of scroll availability in the first place)

Summon Monster? That can do what exactly? Yes, you get access to some spells and SLAs, but they're hardly gamebreaking, or even in most cases particularly powerful, especially not as a consistent means of defense. No, the power of Summoning in this case is going to be the allies you can bind. And these allies must be negotiated with individually, and more to the point, must be relied upon to fulfill their negotiations. (It should be noted that the called creature is not, by the RAW anyways, actually under any compulsion to do anything you say, other than promising to preform the service or being compelled to listen to your offer. By the RAI it is likely intended, but there is no actual specified mechanic to force it to make good on that promise) So, like I said, you are depending on the good graces of, generally, a lot of someones.

Scrolls cost a pittance of XP. The XP gained in the encounters that require their use should more than make up for it.

Calling creatures is still relying on others, true, but it can be relying on a completely different "other" each time. An creature that has no vendetta against you personally and who is being reasonably paid for his time and effort. It doesn't have to be infallible, but it unquestionably does cut off insinuating yourself into the mage's household as a viable avenue of attack.

Slight of Hand, the Elephant statue focus. After all, there is no direct harm in not having it.
The rest is just social engineering. A high enough Bluff can get around general mind reading.

Craft contingent spell is a thing, so SoH'ing his contingency (note the singular as it's a limit of the spell that the feat doesn't have) away isn't always going to be a valid option. For a wizard that likes to rely on contingent spell effects it'll never be an option.

The "high enough" for bluffing mind-reading is over 100. It's difficult at best for a non-caster unless we're talking diplomancer.

[Ravens_cry]

Ah, there's a focus. Well, Eschew Materials if it works, a Contingency against pickpocketing if it doesn't.
Eschew Material most certainly does not work and you can only have one Contingency at a time.

[Flickerdart]

Eschew Material most certainly does not work and you can only have one Contingency at a time.
Unless you use Craft Contingent Spell. Runesmith, among others, can obviate the focus requirement.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Eschew Material most certainly does not work and you can only have one Contingency at a time.

Craft Contingent Spell then. Or put it in an extradimensional space that doesn't have the "item you're looking for conveniently rises to the top" clause.

[Flickerdart]

Craft Contingent Spell then. Or put it in an extradimensional space that doesn't have the "item you're looking for conveniently rises to the top" clause.
That clause only applies to the wearer of the item, anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

Unless you use Craft Contingent Spell. Runesmith, among others, can obviate the focus requirement.
Then you are fighting a runesmith, not a wizard.
Craft Contingent spell does make things harder, but not every spellcaster will have it.

[Hirax]

It's worth pointing out that a wizard having instant refuge up is a realistic possibility. 100 XP is a small price to pay for a spell that will basically save you in all but the worst of scenarios.

[Story]

Well it's a possibility, though not all wizards will have it due to the cost and the popularity of banning Evocation. And not everyone's a Shadowcraft Mage either.

[Hirax]

Eh, I've always thought enchantment was the better school to ban. Mother cyst gives you better spells than the normal dominate/charm line. There are some gems you miss like mindrape, but everything has a cost. Enchantment is a much smaller school, too (only divination is smaller). If you go by PHB+SpC, evocation has around twice as many spells as enchantment, for wizards.

[Flickerdart]

Then you are fighting a runesmith, not a wizard.

In what way is a wizard 15/runesmith 5 not a wizard?

[chaos_redefined]

E.Tippy's phrase is actually best considered in reverse. It is out of character for a wizard to have openings. If a wizard has openings, it's merely because the player doesn't have an intelligence of 30+, or because the game can be kept moving if we don't talk about those things. In both cases, it's metagaming.

['Able' Xanthis]

Wrong.

"A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell."

Antimagic doesn't affect Instantaneous Conjurations and Walls of Force, and Forcecage shares properties with it. Walls of Force can be used to suffocate the character instead of Forcecage, and he still wouldn't be able to escape. You also wouldn't be able to affect artifacts, so walking into a sphere of annihilation simply kills you dead.

Dang It! I missed your riposte, Fliker, and a darn good one at that. Here is my counter.

A dead-magic zone was an area of space in which magic ceased to function, it can stop magic in a way that disabled enchantments or prevented spells from being maintained or cast. It is compared to both a Anti-Magic Field and a Null-Magic Field which isn't explained well thus must be compared to the Null-Psionics Field which I would like to point something out.

Replace anything with Psionics with magic and Power with spell

A null psionics field suppresses any power or psionic effect used within, brought into, or manifested into its area, but does not negate it.

I've underlined the relevant data, and yes I was wrong before when I said that a Dead Magic Zone isn't suppression of magic, I took the wording literally as I had not the books needed to reference a full debate.

[Story]

Sounds like the only difference with an AMF is that it may work against Prismatic X and Wall of Force. Still easily bypassable.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Dang It! I missed your riposte, Fliker, and a darn good one at that. Here is my counter.

A dead-magic zone was an area of space in which magic ceased to function, it can stop magic in a way that disabled enchantments or prevented spells from being maintained or cast. It is compared to both a Anti-Magic Field and a Null-Magic Field which isn't explained well thus must be compared to the Null-Psionics Field which I would like to point something out.

Replace anything with Psionics with magic and Power with spell

A null psionics field suppresses any power or psionic effect used within, brought into, or manifested into its area, but does not negate it.

I've underlined the relevant data, and yes I was wrong before when I said that a Dead Magic Zone isn't suppression of magic, I took the wording literally as I had not the books needed to reference a full debate.

Where do you see a DMZ being compared to a Null-Psionics field?

[TuggyNE]

A null psionics field suppresses any power or psionic effect used within, brought into, or manifested into its area, but does not negate it.

That's essentially the same wording as antimagic field.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.

['Able' Xanthis]

This example is literally the big surprise. That one moment of the Evil Bad Guy Wizard slamming two tons of hurt down on the fool who had the audacity to enter his throne room and call him out. Then that fool puts three feet of steel in BBEG, then grapples and tries to beat the guy into submission. This tactic was literally all the characters in that game had left, and if giving up magic isn't desperate I don't know what is.


I didn't feel like writing this again. :smallsigh:

As for where that comes from it is just from the Forgotten Realms Wiki, the only place where you'll find the DMZ explained in any detail. The DMZ as I know, and how I explained it before, it is a DM's interpretation of the DMZ.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I didn't feel like writing this again. :smallsigh:

As for where that comes from it is just from the Forgotten Realms Wiki, the only place where you'll find the DMZ explained in any detail. The DMZ as I know, and how I explained it before, it is a DM's interpretation of the DMZ.

Given the grammatic error they made in copying it (unless you paraphrased that instead of copying it) I'm inclined to disbelieve that the null-psionics comparison is RAW. My copy of the FRCS makes no mention of psionics at all in its explanation of DMZ's.

[Hirax]

PGTF mentions psionics briefly, only to say that psionics do not use the weave, and yet despite that in Toril you operate under the assumption of transparency between psionics and non-psionic magic. It's in the table of contents.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Using tax and debt collectors, every one know you cant ecsape them.

[Garan]

Using tax and debt collectors, every one know you cant ecsape them.

Because death is totally avoidable.

[The Shadowmind]

To kill the Wizard, you must first find the wizard.
Method to accomplish: Vecna-Blooded Template Cloak of Mysteries. Get the Wizard to try to scry you.
Now that you know where who and were the Wizard is, if he is a race that sleeps, then Lucid Dreaming Skill. The Wizard is most vulnerable while Sleeping, because this is an rare method of attack, and then by a creature that is a hole in divination.
You'll want the Empty Form (Ex) from Void Incarnate, to stop the Force Cage nonsense. A Legacy item with the Cunning Property, Schism for Font of Power from Metamind and Temporal Reiteration for Constant Timeless Body. Anticipatory Strike helps with the Celerity Battle.


Be an Illithid Savant, who eats other Illithid Savants.

[TuggyNE]

To kill the Wizard, you must first find the wizard.
Method to accomplish: Vecna-Blooded Template Cloak of Mysteries. Get the Wizard to try to scry you.
Now that you know where who and were the Wizard is, if he is a race that sleeps, then Lucid Dreaming Skill. The Wizard is most vulnerable while Sleeping, because this is an rare method of attack, and then by a creature that is a hole in divination.
You'll want the Empty Form (Ex) from Void Incarnate, to stop the Force Cage nonsense. A Legacy item with the Cunning Property, Schism for Font of Power from Metamind and Temporal Reiteration for Constant Timeless Body. Anticipatory Strike helps with the Celerity Battle.


Be an Illithid Savant, who eats other Illithid Savants.

Or, in short, the way to beat a wizard who is moderately optimized is to use heavy cheese; the way to beat a wizard who is rather well optimized is extreme cheese; it may or may not be possible to kill a fully-optimized wizard, even with another fully-optimized wizard.

(In Emperor Tippy's games, the process of killing an epic wizard consumes essentially an entire campaign arc, 20+ sessions.)

[Darth Stabber]

Eh, I've always thought enchantment was the better school to ban. Mother cyst gives you better spells than the normal dominate/charm line. There are some gems you miss like mindrape, but everything has a cost. Enchantment is a much smaller school, too (only divination is smaller). If you go by PHB+SpC, evocation has around twice as many spells as enchantment, for wizards.

I usually use the domain wizard acf, give up nothing, still get extra spells.

You are right about mother cyst though, that feat is great, though I find it's better for sorcerers and fixed list casters (like dread necromancers for whom it is perfect).

[The Shadowmind]

Or, in short, the way to beat a wizard who is moderately optimized is to use heavy cheese; the way to beat a wizard who is rather well optimized is extreme cheese; it may or may not be possible to kill a fully-optimized wizard, even with another fully-optimized wizard.

(In Emperor Tippy's games, the process of killing an epic wizard consumes essentially an entire campaign arc, 20+ sessions.)

Well if you can get immunity to Force Effects and Cloak of Shadows for another method that still allows getting Psion(Seer) 20 then that might work.
Hypercognition and Metafaculty will give you the Wizard's Location, since only epic abilities truly block it. And will cause what spells the Wizard has prepared and cast to be know thus removing schrodinger Wizard problem. Expanded Knowledge: Anticipatory Strike and Linked Power Synchronicity with Metamorphosis, Greater granted by Psychic Chirurgery for Dire Turtleness.
Then Reality Revision:Transport Travelers to get to the Wizard's Location.
And since the Psion is also a heavy Int-focuses class then it's intelligence should be on par with the Wizard.

[Story]

In other words, it takes a full caster to beat a Wizard.

[The Shadowmind]

In other words, it takes a full caster to beat a Wizard.

As Uncle said, "Magic must defeat Magic."

[Rogue Shadows]

In other words, it takes a full caster to beat a Wizard.

And not even all full casters. I'd love to see the Healer or Warmage that could take one down.

In any one given conflict, I think a Sorcerer could probably do it, especially if they just met on the street randomly and decided to fight it out 'cause the Sorcerer insulted the wizard's mother. But even then, that's just for any one given conflict with no forewarning on either's part, just the wizard running off his "default" spell list and buffs for the day.

Overall, wizard still beats sorcerer.

[Togo]

In what way is a wizard 15/runesmith 5 not a wizard?

Statements that are only applicable to runesmiths are not applicable to all wizards.

[Flickerdart]

Statements that are only applicable to runesmiths are not applicable to all wizards.
Which is not something I ever claimed.

[genericwit]

If you're open to homebrew, the Fighter Incarnate's [fighter fix] Magekiller path has a focus [kind of like incarnum chakra binds] that allows you to take a standard action as an immediate action to damage a caster who has started a spell [thereby interrupting the spell] which can be combined with an ability that allows you to take a full attack as a standard action [Weaponmaster I believe]. Combine that with the Marksman [archery based] path that allows you to do up to an extra 1O damage per arrow, the splitting weapon property, and the pierce magical protection and pierce magical concealment and you can interrupt celerity or teleportation or whatever other shenanigans.

Otherwise, I dunno, some other caster or something?