Weilding large greatsword?

[tim01300]

Playing 3.5 core rulebooks only, I have a player who wants to wield a large great sword. From what we can find this would allow him 3d6 damage but with only a plenty of -2 for it being out one out of his medium size. Is this allowed? I feel like it must not be but I can not find a clear explanation in the DM book or player handbook to prove to him wrong.

Any help? :smalltongue:

[Boci]

It's not allowed, as a large one handed weapon becomes a two handed weapon in the hands of a medium creature, so no large two handed weapons. However i would allow it, as they are gaining an extra 3.5 points of damage in return for -2 to hit. By contrast power attack would give you 4 damage for the same trade, and you could adjust it.

[Deophaun]

It's not allowed, because a greatsword is already a two-handed weapon. He would need the Monkey Grip feat or something similar to reduce the effort needed to wield it.

That said, it's not like wielding a large greatsword at a -2 penalty is overpowered. Consider that the extra +2 to hit you'd use with a regular greatsword would go into Power Attack, you're actually losing .5 damage per hit by wielding the oversized version.

Edit: And Swordsaged.

[tim01300]

Ok thanks for the quick feedback guys.

[Jeraa]

As has been mentioned, you can't wield a large greatsword as a medium creatures. (Not with Core rules only at least.) Here is the relevant rule:


The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

[TuggyNE]

Strongarm Bracers are normally superior to Monkey Grip. :smalltongue:

[Deophaun]

Strongarm Bracers are normally superior to Monkey Grip. :smalltongue:
A kick to the groin is normally superior to Monkey Grip, but the feat is 100% on point to illustrate the requirement. Strongarm Bracers are not.

[mattie_p]

Since we've already left core, powerful build of the half-giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants). Might be available in core only, if you consider the SRD (Expanded Psionics Handbook) to be core.


Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

[Vizzerdrix]

I always did love using a large morningstar with my clerics. Good times.

[Artillery]

If you don't want the Psionic stuff of half-giant you could look at the Goliath from Races of Stone, it also has powerful build.

[tim01300]

Ok new question from the same player. Keeping to the core books mind you, I told him he couldn't use the sword and explained it and he already had decided that instead he wants to purchase a ring with enlargement spell permanently cast on it. We are starting at level 4 and the DM's guide says level 4 character wealth should be at 5,400. He did the math from the DM's guide and says this ring should only cost 2,000 to make (I have not checked this yet). This would make him a large character all the time. The bonus to strength, grapple, use larger items. The offset being decreased AC and a slight increase to the cost of weapons and armor.

Surely this ring must cost more than 2000 gold right?

Its a campaign that we havn't even started with several new players, So I am hoping for him not to overwhelm them or make the game seem unfair.

I feel he is trying to break our game before we even start.

Also side question, the monkey grip feat, what books or expansions do I find that in? He was wanted to read it.

[Deophaun]

Surely this ring must cost more than 2000 gold right?
4,000 according to the DMG's chart. He's forgetting that, since the spell has a 1 minute/level duration, you double the cost.

In truth, since it's a custom magic item, it's however much you think it's worth.

It's not necessarily that OP. By level 6 i wouldn't have a problem with a character that was large all the time. A good rule when starting at higher level is that no item can be worth more than half your total wealth.

Also side question, the monkey grip feat, what books or expansions do I find that in? He was wanted to read it.
Monkey Grip is in Complete Warrior. It's pretty terrible except for some extreme corner cases (like you can already wield a Gargantuan-sized Greatsword and want to wield a Colossal one). Even then, if you can get that optimized, you can probably come up with better options.

[Zanthy1]

If he really wants to be large, has he considered playing a large critter from the Monster Manual? He would take a LA hit, but if he is planning on going large hit em with a big weapon fighter build, he shouldn't care much about that.

[herrhauptmann]

Ok new question from the same player. Keeping to the core books mind you, I told him he couldn't use the sword and explained it and he already had decided that instead he wants to purchase a ring with enlargement spell permanently cast on it. We are starting at level 4 and the DM's guide says level 4 character wealth should be at 5,400. He did the math from the DM's guide and says this ring should only cost 2,000 to make (I have not checked this yet). This would make him a large character all the time. The bonus to strength, grapple, use larger items. The offset being decreased AC and a slight increase to the cost of weapons and armor.

Surely this ring must cost more than 2000 gold right?

Its a campaign that we havn't even started with several new players, So I am hoping for him not to overwhelm them or make the game seem unfair.

I feel he is trying to break our game before we even start.

He might break the game, but only in the sense of slightly overshadowing your blaster-wizard, or sword+board fighter, and druid without natural spell. Primarily by doing slightly more damage:

+2 strength, with a 2handed weapon, that's +1 or +2 damage.
Bigger weapon. Average of 3.5 damage.
-2 Dex. His AC and reflex saves both drop by 1.
-1 attack from size. This counters his strength boost, so he doesn't hit harder.
-1 AC from size. This is in addition to his dex penalty, so AC drops by 2 total.
+4 on trip/disarm/sunder/bullrush for size.
Reach. This is the best reason to be large.
He's got 10ft reach. With a spiked chain, he can hit everyone in 20ft. With a reach polearm, he can use it on people 15 and 20 ft away, and use his spiked gauntlet on people 5 and 10 ft away.
Remember, if he goes Ogre or something like suggested, he can't use enlarge person for size huge. (Psionic expansion however...)

There's honestly other things he could buy for more power/utility. Even in core.

If you give him the ring, you know that everything he has will enlarge, and go back to normal size when he drops it or lets it go? Unfortunately, the reverse is not true, when he picks up a +2 sword (worth more than his current allowed wealth), it's not going to resize for him. WIll he just remove his ring, pick up the sword, then put his ring back on? If so, how many times a day is this permanent enlarge person going to be allowed to activate? As many times as he wants?
Alternately, he could take the sword/armor of an ogre boss. But as soon as he takes off the ring, or gets dispelled, he can't use his ogre gear.
Furthermore, looks like he's pricing that ring at the minimum caster level, 3, second level spell from a third level caster 1st level spell from a 1st level caster. At level 5, a boss wizard will be at least level 7, more than enough to reliably dispel his ring. DC 12, by a caster with a 1d20+7 (or more) on his dispel check.
I don't recommend dispelling him every fight, but if you feel he's too powerful, it could be a good way to take him down a notch and let everyone else contribute.

A fun debuff in a game? Enlarge person on a wizard or a small rogue.

[Deophaun]

HFurthermore, looks like he's pricing that ring at the minimum caster level, 3, second level spell from a third level caster.
1. First level spell from a first level caster.

[Douglas]

The continuous and/or use-activated spell effect pricing guideline is one of the most notoriously broken "rules" - and it's really more of a suggestion than a rule - in the entire game. It should always be subject to DM judgment, and a player should never assume he can use it without specific approval. Using it with level 1 spells at caster level 1 is a particularly common way for it to be ridiculously overpowered.

With that said, compare it to the Strongarm Bracers from Magic Item Compendium, which grant the weapon size increase without the improved reach and strength and grapple bonuses. They cost 6000 gp. Even considering the dexterity and attack/AC penalties, it's clear that permanent Enlargement is worth considerably more than 2000.

[Deophaun]

With that said, compare it to the Strongarm Bracers from Magic Item Compendium, which grant the weapon size increase without the improved reach and strength and grapple bonuses.
Compare the cost of a profane bonus to saving throws versus the cost of a resistance bonus. Same deal here. Enlargement is actually pretty easy to get. Level 1 wiz/sorc spell, potions, cleric domain. That's what you have to compare it to. 4000 gp buys a lot of charges for a wand of enlarge person. At 1 min/level, it's still a viable pre-buff at CL1 if the party bothers to scout ahead. It's the things that then stack on top of it that are harder to come by.

Plus, strongarm bracers work just fine in your typical dungeon. Enlarge person may be more problematic.

[Psyren]

Diopsids (Dragon Compendium) can wield large weapons.

[mattie_p]

If you are not comfortable with an item, make him pay for a casting of Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm), followed by Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm).

Costs:
Enlarge Person (CL9): 90 gp (Note, I am assuming a wizard capable of casting Permanency will not voluntarily decrease caster level for the purposes of charging less).
Permanency (CL9): 2950 gp (450 gp + 500 xp at 5 gold per XP, per the spellcaster services rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices))

Total cost: 3040 gp for two spells.

Pro: Street Legal in Core (PHB only)

Cons: Dispellable, cannot suppress at will.

[GrognokMagrok]

4,000 according to the DMG's chart. He's forgetting that, since the spell has a 1 minute/level duration, you double the cost.

In truth, since it's a custom magic item, it's however much you think it's worth.

It's not necessarily that OP. By level 6 i wouldn't have a problem with a character that was large all the time. A good rule when starting at higher level is that no item can be worth more than half your total wealth.

Monkey Grip is in Complete Warrior. It's pretty terrible except for some extreme corner cases (like you can already wield a Gargantuan-sized Greatsword and want to wield a Colossal one). Even then, if you can get that optimized, you can probably come up with better options.

The weightless weapon enchantment from arms and armor comes to mind. For psionic warriors that abuse expansion(like me) slapping that on a sizing weapon is priceless.

[sleepyphoenixx]

For a comparison, the Belt of Growth (MIC) costs 3,000gp for 1/day Enlarge Person. It's CL 10 though, so that influences the price accordingly.
4,000gp for an all-day items sounds reasonable to me. Enlarge is good (for melee), but not that good.

[OldTrees1]

Pricing is made difficult because several classes of items are imbalanced relative to each other (See Weapons vs Metamagic Rods). So one needs to pick something to compare it to.

The Hathran Mask of continuous True Seeing is 75K gp (5th level, 1min/cl spell)
IIRC Freedom of Movement can be bought as +1 Freedom of Movement Bracers of Armor for 25K gp (4th level, 10min/cl spell)
Based upon these I would buy Swift action toggled Enlarge Person for 10K gp (convieniently just less than 3x the dispellable option).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Pricing is made difficult because several classes of items are imbalanced relative to each other (See Weapons vs Metamagic Rods). So one needs to pick something to compare it to.

The Hathran Mask of continuous True Seeing is 75K gp (5th level, 1min/cl spell)
IIRC Freedom of Movement can be bought as +1 Freedom of Movement Bracers of Armor for 25K gp (4th level, 10min/cl spell)
Based upon these I would buy Swift action toggled Enlarge Person for 10K gp (convieniently just less than 3x the dispellable option).

I think 10k is excessive. 5k sounds more reasonable, especially for a toggled version (which can still be dispelled) instead of a continuous one (which could just be supressed).

Keep in mind that True Seeing also has a costly component and is far more essential and also useful in a far greater variety of situations.
For Freedom of Movement you also have to factor in that the price is only 25k if that's the only armor enhancement you get. 40k (as for the ring) is a more reasonable cost to use as a baseline, but again FoM is far more necessary and useful.
There's also the question what True Seeing and FoM have to do with Enlarge pricing. You should be comparing to other items that grant it and evaluate the price accordingly.

Enlarge just doesn't give you that much. A bit more damage and more reach mainly, with the ability scores and size modifiers roughly balancing against each other.
Take the Belt of Growth, reduce the CL (no one needs CL 10 on that - it's too much for one fight and not enough to last for two), improve it to 3-4 uses/day and turn activation into a swift action and 3-6k sounds like a reasonable price to me (personally i tend toward the lower end of that). Personally i'd offer it continuous for the same price, because the difference between that and 4 swift action uses/day is negligible.

[TheFurith]

The weightless weapon enchantment from arms and armor comes to mind. For psionic warriors that abuse expansion(like me) slapping that on a sizing weapon is priceless.

Weightless weapon? Tell me you can't put that on a flail....