Four Druids 1-20

[isotunknown]

We're about to embark on a campaign in which four of us will play four druids. The DM has promised a highly challenging adventure. She said that we should expect an optimized campaign designed to put us to the test. All WoTC products allowed, some homebrew permitted (at DM's discretion), the DM's fiat is final.

Of note: Leadership, Shapechange, and most time related spells/effects are banned.

Because the adventure is being tailored for us, we're trying to figure out how to prepare for where we are weakest and how to deal with those weaknesses.

For instance, we are concerned about how we'll find and deal with traps. We are also concerned about how we'll manage aggressive wizards/sorcerers. Can you help us think about how to deal with these challenges?

Also, what should we be preparing for that we might be overlooking?

Thanks in advance.

[Yogibear41]

Detect Snares and Pits 1st level spell from players handbook could help some in regards to certain types of traps. Does the campaign have a primary goal? or are you just out doing druid things as a group?

[Urpriest]

At higher levels, the Summon Elemental reserve feat is great for dealing with traps, if messy.

[Chilingsworth]

As for traps, you'll eventually have sufficent summons to trip them for you. If you'd rather not use your spells that way, you can take the Summon Elemental feat at level 9 (or later) to have a spammable elemental of any of the four core types (air, earth, fire, water.)

As for enemy spellcasters... entangle, briar web, and careful animal companion selection and pack tactics should help some there... At least until you get access to your own "I win" buttons.

Another option would be to have someone go for the arcane hieropahnt PrC (races of the wild.) Basically, a wizard/druid theurge class that doesn't suck.

[isotunknown]

Thanks.

The objective has not been made clear to us. We've just been told to expect to take four druids to level 20 and to face a campaign designed to give druids their do. We've been told to prepare for anything and that not only will we have to prepare well, but that we'll have to play well. We've been told that time will be of the essence. She said she will be trying--throughout much of the adventure--to give us the sense of a page-turner, that we will much of the time feel that we will be running to something or from something or having to address a problem quickly. This particular DM is a huge fan of Red Hand of Doom and liked the pressure the party was under in that campaign. We expect a similar pace.

[Chilingsworth]

So, is this taking place in a published or a homebrew setting?

[isotunknown]

At higher levels, the Summon Elemental reserve feat is great for dealing with traps, if messy.

You're suggesting using, say, an earth elemental to go ahead and trigger the traps. That's a good idea. Of course, I suppose there are times when we might wish not to set off the trap. But I like the idea of taking advantage of earthglide.

[isotunknown]

As for traps, you'll eventually have sufficent summons to trip them for you. If you'd rather not use your spells that way, you can take the Summon Elemental feat at level 9 (or later) to have a spammable elemental of any of the four core types (air, earth, fire, water.)

As for enemy spellcasters... entangle, briar web, and careful animal companion selection and pack tactics should help some there... At least until you get access to your own "I win" buttons.

Another option would be to have someone go for the arcane hieropahnt PrC (races of the wild.) Basically, a wizard/druid theurge class that doesn't suck.
Thanks.

What do you think is best for those "pack tactics"?

Unfortunately, PRCs are prohibited; druids 1-20 only.

The setting is homebrew, but includes sources from all the published WoTC products. My guess is that she'll stick us in a place we've never been before to keep us from metagaming. I fully expect her to use homebrew creatures or 3rd party creatures, classes, items, etc. We know that the WoTC lot is going to be available within the world (minus that which she designates as cheese or nonsense).

[demigodus]

Druids don't get any easy ways to get rid of ability drain or negative levels. Watch out for those

[jaybird]

Greenbound Summoning, perhaps?

[Urpriest]

You're suggesting using, say, an earth elemental to go ahead and trigger the traps. That's a good idea. Of course, I suppose there are times when we might wish not to set off the trap. But I like the idea of taking advantage of earthglide.

If you can talk to them (have someone in the party know Terran) you might be able to instruct them to simply go into the wall and look for traps. They don't have a rogue's ability to search, but they do have a unique view of the situation, so things like pits at least should be fairly obvious.

[TroubleBrewing]

I recommend four different animal companions, specced for different things. At least two flyers, maybe one with a burrow speed? At higher levels this becomes less of an issue, obviously, but right out of the gate it helps to have options.

In terms of party roles, you've got BFC, DPS, tanking, and stealth. There are the secondary roles of corpse and healer to be considered. Any druid can grab solid battlefield control spells, so that shouldn't be an issue. Likewise for damage. Tanking is a bit trickier, but can be done in a pinch. The feat Dragon Wildshape covers at least two of those roles at 12th level. Stealth/scouting is just a Wildshape away. Summon Elemental Reserve obviates the need for a corpse, and healing can be accomplished easily if the duty is shared among all party members.

In terms of combat 'jobs', my recommendation is one summoner (so as not to bog the game down), two dedicated Wildshapers, and one dedicated proper caster, perhaps with one of the Initiate feats out of Eberron or FR material. With no Leadership available, perhaps a party member with Initiate of Nature to rebuke/command a plant army would be a suitable replacement?

[Chilingsworth]

Thanks.
What do you think is best for those "pack tactics"?


Well, I'd start with four wolves as your 1st level companions. Then when dealing with spellcasters (who at this point should be similiarly low level) have them surround the foe in flanking positions.

The fact that they're adjacent to the enemy will prevent them all being hit with a burst effect (unless the caster of said burst doesn't mind hitting the enemy spellcaster, too.) The fact that they'll be on opposite corners of the caster will make sure he/she has no direction in which to move that doesn't provoke (and no 5ft step to take that leaves them unthreatened.) This placement should also prevent them all being caught in a cone effect (again unless the caster is also caught in it.) Finally, wolves get to trip when they attack. Between the four wolves, they should have an excellent chance of tripping the foe. When he/she tries to get up, four attacks of opportunity are provoked. Also, any wolves that get to attack after the caster is knocked prone get a +4 bonus to hit. They also get flanking as already mentioned.

For added fun, add in summons to taste.

By the time this stops working, you'll have better companions and lots of other tricks online.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dragon Wild Shape (Drac) offers a lot of benefits if you have access to non-core dragons. Look at planar and gem dragons and the Mist, Mercury & Steel Dragons from Dragons of Faerun for a good selection of immunities, special abilities and breath weapons of all kinds.

Initiate of Nature (PGtF) adds a few situationally useful spells to your list and lets you rebuke and command animals and plants for more minions.

Rashemi Elemental Summoning (UE) beefs up your air and earth elemental summons with better stats and various special abilities.

Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) turns your animal summons into plant creatures with higher stats, DR and some useful spell-like abilities.

Aberration Wild Shape (LoM) gets you access to useful utility forms like Rust Monster and Will-O’-Wisp ((Ex) Invisibility and Immunity to Magic).

Frozen Wild Shape (Frost) gets you Cryohydra form with 12 natural attacks.

Also of note are the Initiate feats from ECS for access to spells druids don't get normally.
Gatekeeper Initiate adds Protection from Evil, Dimensional Anchor and Mind Blank.
Greensinger Initiate adds charm, displacement, Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness.

For Animal Companions:

Ape gets 10ft reach.
Fleshraker Dinosaur gets a whole bunch of poisonous attacks that synergize well with Venomfire.

[Gavinfoxx]

Riding Dogs trained for War are strictly better than wolves...

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354

Someone should get a Swindlespitter at level 1.

[docnessuno]

Shifter druid racial 1st substitution level is pretty much the only way for a straight druid to get standard action SNA. You have to give up your animal companion, wich hurts, but the benefits are quite nice overall. I'd suggest at least 1 shifter character with a summoning-focused build (greenbound summoning, ashbound, rashemi elemental summoning, maybe augument summoning) taking the 1st and maybe the 4th racial sub levels (avoid the 5th as the plague).

[isotunknown]

Thanks all for these suggestions so far.

I'm suspecting we're going to have to have some magic item based way to identify or deal with traps--though I'm not aware of any.

I agree that ability drain and negative levels will also be a problem after the fact. Before hand, Sheltered Vitality and Death Ward should help prevent these things. The problem is dealing with them after the fact. Again, if folks have magical suggestions, that would be great.

Our DM is fair and very logical. There's no Kobayashi Maru, unless we're stupid enough to put ourselves there. Traps will be purposive and thought out, but also in enough supply to cause problems for us. The puzzles we face will have solutions if we're clever, observant, and--of course--lucky.

Frankly, its the traps that worry me most, at the moment, as I see no way to move quickly through an adventure and still avoid them. We could take a charge ahead approach and accept the traps as they come, because there will be little time to search for traps or secret doors, etc.--only stopping when we smell a rat.

Relying on spells like Omen of Peril could be helpful in some circumstances, but it doesn't sound like much of a solution to me.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, for secret doors you could have at least one elf of some kind.

Also for some secret doors and some traps, (those involved with stone) you could have someone play a dwarf. (Hey, Pikel was a cool character!) Have your elf and your dwarf max ranks in search, invest in search skill items (and masterwork items of search, if your dm allows.) You should have no touble finding secret doors, or traps in stonework. (hint: many dungeons are built out of stone.)

[Gavinfoxx]

Or just have one person be a Human with Able Learner...

Maybe one of the druids could get the Urban Companion feature to swap out animal companion for Familiar, and then get Improved Familiar and something with some skills?

[Story]

Or just have one person be a Human with Able Learner...

That won't get you trapfinding.

[Gavinfoxx]

That won't get you trapfinding.

True. But he isn't going to be getting Trapfinding anyway. He's going to need another method of dealing with traps.

[Spuddles]

10 foot pool for traps.

Have an animal like a mule walk 20 feet ahead of you. If it dies, it gets fed to your war dogs.

Warbreed your animal companions- from monster manual 2. Handle animal check, add a HD and all the armor proficiencies. Use it at first level to basically have level 2 fighters.

[Chilingsworth]

True. But he isn't going to be getting Trapfinding anyway. He's going to need another method of dealing with traps.

Dwarves get trapfinding for traps in stone.

[Acanous]

10 foot pool for traps.


I don't see how carting around a kiddie pool will stop a Disintigrate...

[Amphetryon]

Can't Druids gain a Domain via ACF? Kobold Domain for the win.

[ericgrau]

While druids are ok at low levels expect levels 1-4 to be a pain. Coordinate your spells and attacks. Shillelagh, entangle, obscuring mist and/or cure light wounds (for the melee) are probably good options. Spell compendium adds beast claws, enrage animal and snake's swiftness.

[Urpriest]

You'll have a couple levels before traps get too bad, anyway. Lower level traps don't typically have passwords or other "only let X through" conditions, so they're only going to be placed where people won't be tripping over them on a regular basis. With good scouting you can figure out how the people who live wherever you're attacking avoid the traps.

[Story]

Can't Druids gain a Domain via ACF? Kobold Domain for the win.

They can also get it through Planar Touchstone, but that isn't until 9th level.

[Spuddles]

While druids are ok at low levels expect levels 1-4 to be a pain. Coordinate your spells and attacks. Shillelagh, entangle, obscuring mist and/or cure light wounds (for the melee) are probably good options. Spell compendium adds beast claws, enrage animal and snake's swiftness.

War beast riding dogs in hide, and sandblast (druid version of color spray).

[Invader]

Greenbound summoned bears of any type plus bite of the were"XX" plus bulls str, is pretty much guaranteed to grapple any humanoid and lock it down.

Infact, 4 summoned greenbound creatures with ashbound and augment summoning feats should win just about every fight unless the enemy as a means to dismiss your summons.

[killem2]

By chance are you all starting as one group and know each other? Is it possible to pool resources?

I also would be interested if the use of flaws are allowed, no big deal if they aren't. But I do think Natural Bond is going to be really awesome here for the animal companion early on from each of you, but you each could also pick up wild cohort, and each be rolling with two animals each.

Take wolves to start with, and watch them go crazy tripping everything in sight!

Or, take a bunch of swindle spitters, then upgrade to flesh rakers and go insane!

[Rubik]

Mules are a bargain at 1st level. They're passable meat shields, and they only cost 8 gp.

And Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) might just be your best friend (literally!).

[Jack_Simth]

Riding Dogs trained for War are strictly better than wolves...
Not strictly better. They have a slightly slower move score, and don't have any stealth skills (but then, wolves don't get Jump or Swim as trained skills, so...). Most of their base combat statistics are equal or better (AC, saves, HP, attack, damage, special attacks), but they're not strictly better. Usually better, sure. Strictly better in a stand-your-ground fight, sure. Strictly better, no.

But yes: Go with Riding Dog animal companions at 1st, for the most part.

[ericgrau]

You can only start with 1 trick though and that takes 6. Give it 5 more weeks and you're golden though. I've seen some interesting reasoning to claim all riding dogs come trained for war, but it involves acknowledging one rule (purchasing them) and ignoring the others like the monster manual entry and druid entry.

[Story]

Can't you just write the extra tricks into your backstory?

[ericgrau]

You could also write 6 weeks of profession checks in your backstory for some extra gold, hey free 70 gp at level 1. It's kinda fishy. That and you'd need skill focus to successfully take a 10 on your checks at level 1 to finish in 6 weeks. Otherwise you'd need about 4 weeks longer on average.

[isotunknown]

Can't Druids gain a Domain via ACF? Kobold Domain for the win.

Not seeing how to do that, but it seems like a good solution if possible.


They can also get it through Planar Touchstone, but that isn't until 9th level.

I'm not familiar with that. how would it help?


By chance are you all starting as one group and know each other? Is it possible to pool resources?I believe we're allowed to coordinate on equipment and character building.


I also would be interested if the use of flaws are allowed, no big deal if they aren't. But I do think Natural Bond is going to be really awesome here for the animal companion early on from each of you, but you each could also pick up wild cohort, and each be rolling with two animals each. Flaws are allowed.

[killem2]

I believe we're allowed to coordinate on equipment and character building.

Flaws are allowed.


I was going to say if you can pool money, go for a wand, but if you start at level 1, that is impossible :(, but someone should get one soon.


Knowing that you can use flaws that will help a lot. I would definitely pick up strongheart halfling or human for the feats. Taking wild cohort will give you each one extra animal which will scale almost as well as your druid companion.

Now, I personally am leaning towards either the wolves or the heavy horse. I say the heavy horse because it takes up a bit more room on the field to help with flanking with your other companions. Maybe that isn't exactly needed but it could be.

8x Swindle spitters could light up an entire battle field with spit. It depends on what you are fighting i guess, because fort saves seem to be easiest to make.

If all out power isn't what you need, you could each get owls and use them as scouts.

The big advantage is however, when you get up to higher levels, trade those wolves/dinoes or whatever in for the flesh rakers. At that point, the DM will prolly cringe at 8x charging rakers pinning down all the opponents.

With the flaws, and the race, you could easily pick feats that augment spell casting if you wanted to make sure that part of the druid quartet was set.

Or you could all, get your slings, point blank shot + precise shot it up and rain bullets , on the same token, If you want, you could worship a forgotten realms God named Mielikki. Worshipping her allows Druids to use Ranger proficiencies for free. That could get you guys composite long bows. (or at least in the future!)

[Yogibear41]

Are you allowed to use templates or alternate class features?

Im currently playing a Werebear druid with the alternate class variant from Unearthed arcana that gives up wild shape for monk type armor bonuses and ranger favored enemies ( die abberations die!)

Sure I might not have all those fancy wild shapes once I get to a high level, but what beats a werebear with 40ish str and spells? :D (my DM rules you can talk in hybrid form so I can cast spells as normal)

plus at low levels the damage reduction can make you an amazing meat shield.

[Gandariel]

Since Druids are really powerful throughout the whole 20 levels and noone in the party will ever feel underpowered or anything, you might as well try to differentiate from each other as much as possible.

Have one or two Wildshape-focused Druids, one Summon and buff-focused one and a pure caster.

Since your DM allows homebrew, you might ask him to do some extra "ACFs".
For example, the pure caster might forgo the animal companion or wildshape for extra spells or bonuses.

[Gotterdammerung]

An often overlooked magic item will solve your trapfinding worries.

It is located on page 127 of the Dragon Compendium.
It costs 24,000 gold and often you can talk a party into splitting up that cost since its something that helps everyone.

It is called "The Keeper's Guide".

The fluff is that some clerics were bad at keeping up with all the traps in their temple so they made a ring that allows an ordinary person to find traps as if they were a rogue. The ring also gives a +3 insight bonus to search checks made to find traps.

Check out the Spy Glass on pg 141 in the same book. I always find it very useful for dungeon crawls.

Now on to this druid thing. I have some questions. Do you have to stay straight druid with no prestiging? What are the rules for prestige classes and multi classing in this here campaign?


Aside from that, general stuff about druid. If you leave it alone you have a pretty decent animal companion, strong adaptability from wild shape and spells, and a little bit of everything from spells with a focus on buffs and battlefield control.

But with druid you can take any one of those aspects and raise it at the expense of the other aspects.

I would recommend 1 druid focus on battle field control/ and buffing

1 druid focus on nuking

1 druid focus on wildshaping

and 1 druid stay hybrid to float.


Everyone can light cover healing.


I can't really get more detailed until my questions are answered.

[isotunknown]

Are you allowed to use templates or alternate class features? I believe so. What did you have in mind?



Now on to this druid thing. I have some questions. Do you have to stay straight druid with no prestiging?
Yes, I do.

What are the rules for prestige classes and multi classing in this here campaign? No prestige classes or multiclassing.

[Yogibear41]

Lycanthropes mostly, pretty much the epitome of being a nature boy (or girl) IMO and since you will have an alternate form anyway giving up wildshape for stuff becomes less of a disadvantage because you still have your animal/hybrid form. There is the savage progression that allows you to take the animal hit dies as a character class instead of shooting your ECL up a ton instantly too.

The Feral template could also be beneficial and could even fit story wise too
its from Savage Species and gives some pretty good bonuses for only a +1 LA