on the topic of on death scenes

[scurv]

Well, My maps are already drawn, And my group now effectively has no rogue.

I can understand the players being a little upset at the rogue taking first dibs from the loot when no one is looking. But I wonder how many saving throws, healing potions BBQ's and impalement's before we get a new rogue in the party.

[ArcturusV]

Sounds like you ran into the problem that most DMs (And PCs) have with Rogues.

Somehow Rogue players equate "Good Rogue RPing" with "Out to screw the party as much as possible".

Which is never good. Because, well, people then go kill the rogue or the rogue kills people in their sleep and the party is down a man or two, or has been decimated beyond all repair.

As a veteran DM I can say the best solution I usually find to a Rogue acting that way?

Reach over the DM Screen and punch him in the arm, hard, and say "Don't be a **** to your friends and teammates."

You really shouldn't tolerate behavior like that.

[Figgin of Chaos]

See, we wouldn't have this problem if we called them "Scouts" or "Explorers." Those don't imply crime and selfishness.

[Kamai]

Shame that people don't get it sometimes, and just use stupid things (usually Rogues or Paladins) to ruin fun. At worst, you could houserule the ranger and bard to have trapfinding if the archetype just causes problems in your group.


See, we wouldn't have this problem if we called them "Scouts" or "Explorers." Those don't imply crime and selfishness.

Maybe Explorers, but Scouts definitely don't point at the Rogue archetype first, and for me would scream an alternate name for Ranger. The "Sneak" is a corny name for it, but rather unambiguous. I do agree that it took some time personally to detach the Rogue skillset from the lawless thief.

[scurv]

In general I do not mind rogues taking their own Tax, Truth be told i put alot of frikken traps in my dungeons and i refuse to pull them because it was a non-rogue who opened the door.

Although in this case the player is tired of re-rolling rogues and made a wizard.

[ArcturusV]

Even if there were a lot of traps. Typically the Rogue wasn't going to get there alone without a caster, maybe a meat shield to block and tackle the inhabitants out of the way. I mean it's a cooperative effort and stealing from the group's loot (Then demanding an equal share after the reduced value), THEN as they tend to do, steal anything shiny they wanted that didn't make it into their share but the failed to realize they wanted until someone else showed how cool it was... as happens sometimes with magic items...

Not very cooperative.

Plus it kinda has this Diva "I'm the most important" quality to it that is bound to make the other players around the table grumble. I know I personally don't like it when other players pull that. Nor the feeling that I'm getting gimped on WBL just because of it.

Probably not THAT long if you have a Wizard now, and a Cleric or Druid. Between them they should be able to bypass traps easy enough sans Rogue.

[Traab]

Add on an extra effect to all gear and curse the gold with it. "Invisible to bastard thieving rogues" There, now he has to rely on the honesty of the rest of the group for a change instead of the other way around. When the rogue complains say, "Hey, I can answer that ic or ooc. IC, The wizard/lich/bandits/dragon that runs this dungeon have had problems with thieves and have taken steps to hide the loot better. Ooc, if you want to be a *^%$ then I can do that too."

[Jay R]

The same problem exists in the other direction.

I'm currently playing a Second Edition Thief, who has never stolen anything in his life.

I am sardonically amused that the Paladin has warned people about him, and told him that she doesn't respect what he does.

I'm wondering if she will ever notice that the "Thief" has always been more honorable, more honest, and braver than any other member of the party, including herself.

[willpell]

See, we wouldn't have this problem if we called them "Scouts" or "Explorers." Those don't imply crime and selfishness.

Well the class was called "Thief" before 3E, so it's already been made more politically correct. The word Rogue does kind of imply "out for yourself", but it's hardly a mandate to screw your buddy. The players who do so probably wouldn't behave any differently if they played Wizards; they'd just use Mage Hand or Invisibility to swipe your ill-guarded valuables, or if they were Fighters they'd make an Intimidate check to mug you, or if they were Monks they'd...well, you get my point.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. Though I usually house rule so that you aren't allowed to use social skills on other PCs (Unless for a directly positive effect for all party members). Had too much trouble with people who had insane Diplomacy or Intimidate builds trying to use them to screw over party members as well.

But not as often as the Rogue does via blatant theft.

Heh. Yeah Jay R, that's always a hoot. That and if you're an evil party member as the party's paladin keeps trying (Unsuccessfully) to corner you and smite you. Even though most of the party considers you just as good and at least more helpful than said paladin.

Paladin: "He's Evil! He's going to betray us all, that's what Evil people do!"

Evil Cleric: Naaaaah. I like you all, well except him. And honestly I wouldn't accomplish half the stuff I have without you all helping me. You're my friends, you're cool. No sacrificing you to dark gods.

Paladin: EVIL! LIES! *foaming at the mouth*

Party Bard: Weeeeelll he does have an odd tendency to desecrate remains of our enemies, and slit the throats of prisoners we take... but he's also been helpful and by our sides for months now and totally trustworthy.

[scurv]

Socrates and the Ring of Gyges anyone?

And yes, A rogues chance to steal from the group can bevery limited. First with no bags of holding Large items will be problematic to swipe, Second rogues tend to spend most of their time mostly in the sight of the party. And I do have sufficant cursed items to make the thief of those....something i look forward to as a DM. Not to mention at a point the party could very well notice the rogue has fuller bags.

But there are times when a rogue will have his moment of glory when no one is about and he can swip that bag of gems.

Same as when i give the fighter his moment of glory and the one on one dual.

Same as the cleric gets with face time with divine mandated tasks.

Same as the wizard gets when it is magic time of some weird puzzle or another for them to apply spells to for a solution.

[ArcturusV]

The difference being though that while other Moments of Glory are undoubtably good for the character in question, they're also good for the party as a whole.

Fighter just Badassed his way past an encounter all by himself? Good, that means the party has less to worry about. Cleric got some Divine Mandated Boon? It makes him more effective and allows him to help the party out more at worst, may have more direct benefits like solving hanging plot points. Wizard goes and One shots an encounter with a timely sleep spell so all he has to do is Coup de Grace everything dead? Again, same as the fighter, his moment of glory just directly benefited the party. The rogue's? Not so much. He could also have his moment of glory in other ways, like sneaking into some enemy's chamber, past his traps/guards, and deliver a Sneak Attack Coup de Grace to a villain's sleeping body. Or argue that his moment of glory is bypassing a heavily trapped corridor leading to the Crown Jewels of Somewhere, letting his party waltz in and see he 15 different brands of Instant Death lay broken, sprung, and nullified by the Rogue. Or being able to swipe the magic wand off an enemy wizard and using it to Fireball said wizard unto death with a smile on the Rogue's face.

Lots of ways to do those crowning moments of glory. Which I love doing for PCs when I'm a DM. Try to always give my players ones at regular (And deserved) intervals.

[Jay R]

Regardless of what the rules say, most characters fall into one of three alignments: Lawful Snotty, Neutral Thieving, and Chaotic Back-Stabbing.