The answer to wizards

[Garan]

Two words: Death touch.

All a cleric with the Death domain has to do is touch the wizard in question, and then if the wizard has fewer hitpoints remaining than 1d6/cleric's level, it dies. No save. Instantly. So unless the wizard can completely prevent themselves from being touched, they can die very easily.

['Able' Xanthis]

Nice work Garan. Now do it with a tier 4!

[JaronK]

Well, it's the preventing being touched thing that's the issue.

JaronK

[Garan]

Nice work Garan. Now do it with a tier 4!

I don't see anyone going around complaining that clerics are overpowered, even though according to the tiers they are just as overpowered as wizards.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, it's the preventing being touched thing that's the issue.

JaronK

This. If you can lay a hand on the Wizard, the Wizard has already messed up. They have too many ways of preventing anything from getting near them. So, in regards to "So unless the wizard can completely prevent themselves from being touched, they can die very easily." They can and do prevent themselves from being touched!

[WhatBigTeeth]

Death touch is terrible (touch range, death effect, living-only, cleric level-dependent, only 1d6/level), but if you're a Cleric, you can do pretty much the same things as a wizard anyway. So just do those.

[Killer Angel]

Two words: Death touch.

All a cleric with the Death domain has to do is touch the wizard in question, and then if the wizard has fewer hitpoints remaining than 1d6/cleric's level, it dies.

Of course you can kill the wizard, if and if.


Nice work Garan. Now do it with a tier 4!

That's easy!
One word: Greatsword.

All a barbarian has to do is to go in melee with the wizard and if the wizard lacks an immediate defense...

[Norin]

I don't see anyone going around complaining that clerics are overpowered, even though according to the tiers they are just as overpowered as wizards.

Well as i see it, high tier is more about amazing versatility (of course high power comes from using that versatility as well).

But yeah, using a Tier 1 to kill a wizard should not be an amazing feat really.

Death touch seems pretty nice though, i agree. :smallwink:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Aside from the difficulties of of touching a paranoid wizard, the kind people discuss and complain about, and Cleric being Tier 1 so they should stand a chance.

Isn't the standard 28 point buy Wizard Stat array something like 8,14,14,16,12,10 with those 2 points of Wisdom being the most flexible? That death touch will more than likely fizzle even if you got the drop on the wizard with no anti touch contingencies or immunity to death effects.

[TuggyNE]

That's easy!
One word: Greatsword.

All a barbarian has to do is to go in melee with the wizard and if the wizard lacks an immediate defense...

OK, I snickered.

But really... a moderate-high op defensively-oriented Wizard build may well be able to get AC in the 80s or 90s, touch AC somewhat lower, and 87.5% miss chance plus layered project images/astral projections/whatever, as well as 240' fly (average) or better, and one or more (Crafted) contingencies.

And that's not even counting burning limited wish or shapechange-casting to get death ward up.

[SowZ]

Two words: Death touch.

All a cleric with the Death domain has to do is touch the wizard in question, and then if the wizard has fewer hitpoints remaining than 1d6/cleric's level, it dies. No save. Instantly. So unless the wizard can completely prevent themselves from being touched, they can die very easily.

A simple death ward enchantment would save the target. At any rate, it is no easier to kill a wizard with death touch than it is to kill him with a rogue's sneak attack or a barbarian swing. If the cleric can close range and touch him, he dies. If a rogue can get one volley of sneak attacks off, he dies. If the barbarian can get one good charge attack in, he dies. Either way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Even if you can manage a successful touch attack, no mean feat btw, it's not a guaranteed kill.

A d6 averages 3.5. A wizard has a d4 HD but he also usually has at least +2 con.

That's 4.5 hp's per level Vs the death touch's 3.5. It'll succeed less than half of the time and it doesn't do -any- damage if it fails. Seems like a hell of a gamble to me and I'm a risk-taker when I play.

[Aasimar]

I thought the answer to Wizards was Paizo?

[Bit Fiend]

I thought the answer to Wizards was Paizo?

That's the first proper answer to wizards I heard in years. :smallamused:

[TopCheese]

I thought the answer to Wizards was Paizo?

Hahahaha

Sure let's say they answered, but if the question was "what is 2+2?" then Paizo said "The bluebird is bright orange and penguins can fly!".

[Vaz]

All a cleric with the Death domain has to do is touch the wizard in question

I spy a problem...

[Eldariel]

Aside from the difficulties of of touching a paranoid wizard, the kind people discuss and complain about, and Cleric being Tier 1 so they should stand a chance.

Isn't the standard 28 point buy Wizard Stat array something like 8,14,14,16,12,10 with those 2 points of Wisdom being the most flexible? That death touch will more than likely fizzle even if you got the drop on the wizard with no anti touch contingencies or immunity to death effects.

8/14/14/18/8/8, with possible racial adjustments, usually. The 25pb version is generally 8/14/14/17/8/8 though other permutations exist.

Also, Paizo actually buffed Wizards (or casters vs. mundanes) pretty substantially:
- 2 more HP per level (~7-8 more on level 1 due to higher hit die and the death system)
- Extra skills from Int-boosting items
- Between Elves, Humans and demi-Humans, default Int +2 race. Also great racial features and Traits for extra "feats".
- Extra feats, plain and simple. Wizards always made the most out of feats in Core and they certainly don't complain about extras.
- Exclusive access to Flight (before, non-casters could at least use flight items but now you need to be able to fly before you can invest in the skill and it's not a class skill for them anyways and casters get Perfect maneuverability out of Overland Flight due to the way the Fly-skill works)
- Much more expansive (and quite powerful) Improved Familiar-list.
- Summon Monster-line became absolutely ridiculous; you get easy access to efficient healing, really powerful SLAs, etc. all at the small cost of a full-round action where you wait until next turn to get your stuff (even their casting time got changed so that instead of having to cast a full round you have a swift action leftover). So effectively Wizard's means of breaking action economy got stronger. Old SMIX is about SMVII in PF.
- There are few very convenient spells for increasing survivability (Greater False Life for instance). Only ones you really lost were Polymorph-line (PAO still does some good stuff and Shapechange isn't awful either but they're obviously but shadows of their old selves) and some slightly nerfed ones like Glitterdust or Grease. Planar Bindings, Simulacrum, Contingency, etc. weren't really significantly touched.


In short, casters have much more margin for error and plain more resources, and some of their already-good spells became ever more powerful while only one of the Completely Broken lines was significantly nerfed.

Also, some of the key abilities mundanes are supposed to have are much harder to come by for them now; flight in particular is so much more difficult with the Fly-skill than it used to be.

[Twilightwyrm]

OK, I snickered.

But really... a moderate-high op defensively-oriented Wizard build may well be able to get AC in the 80s or 90s, touch AC somewhat lower, and 87.5% miss chance plus layered project images/astral projections/whatever, as well as 240' fly (average) or better, and one or more (Crafted) contingencies.

And that's not even counting burning limited wish or shapechange-casting to get death ward up.

If I might ask, how? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is possible, but I appear to be missing the how. So I suppose I could use some elaboration.

[DMVerdandi]

8/14/14/18/8/8, with possible racial adjustments, usually. The 25pb version is generally 8/14/14/17/8/8 though other permutations exist.

Also, Paizo actually buffed Wizards pretty substantially:
- 2 more HP per level (~7-8 more on level 1 due to higher hit die and the death system)
- Extra skills from Int-boosting items
- Between Elves, Humans and demi-Humans, default Int +2 race. Also great racial features and Traits for extra "feats".
- Extra feats, plain and simple. Wizards always made the most out of feats in Core and they certainly don't complain about extras.
- Exclusive access to Flight (before, non-casters could at least use flight items but now you need to be able to fly before you can invest in the skill and it's not a class skill for them anyways and casters get Perfect maneuverability out of Overland Flight due to the way the Fly-skill works)
- Much more expansive (and quite powerful) Improved Familiar-list.
- Summon Monster-line became absolutely ridiculous; you get easy access to efficient healing, really powerful SLAs, etc. all at the small cost of a full-round action where you wait until next turn to get your stuff (even their casting time got changed so that instead of having to cast a full round you have a swift action leftover). So effectively Wizard's means of breaking action economy got stronger. Old SMIX is about SMVII in PF.
- There are few very convenient spells for increasing survivability (Greater False Life for instance). Only ones you really lost were Polymorph-line (PAO still does some good stuff and Shapechange isn't awful either but they're obviously but shadows of their old selves) and some slightly nerfed ones like Glitterdust or Grease. Planar Bindings, Simulacrum, Contingency, etc. weren't really significantly touched.

Don't forget about crafting.
It took the exp costs right out, and with it, wizards can make scrolls like no one's business. Now they REALLY have an answer to everything. Make 2 scrolls for every spell you have, and craft when you get down time to replace them.

Not to mention staves can be recharged.
Makes them into artificer-lite.

[Piggy Knowles]

Two words: Death touch.

All a cleric with the Death domain has to do is touch the wizard in question, and then if the wizard has fewer hitpoints remaining than 1d6/cleric's level, it dies. No save. Instantly. So unless the wizard can completely prevent themselves from being touched, they can die very easily.

Miss chance. Deflection bonuses to AC. Concealment. Greater Mirror Image. Scintillating Scales. Celerity. Abrupt Jaunt. Astral Projection. Immunity to death effects. Easier access to alternate modes of travel such as flight. Contingent spell effects. An optimized wizard may not have all of these up at any given time, but she'll probably have at least a couple available.

Clerics have a greater chance of taking down a well-prepared wizard than just about any other class, but Death Touch isn't why.

[Togo]

Nice work Garan. Now do it with a tier 4!

Fighter 7/divine crusader 1

Most spells either have a save or a to-hit requirement, which is generally a touch or ranged touch. Very few have both. Death touch isn't that unusual in that regard, except that it's an ability available to spellcasters, rather than a spell.

[Hirax]

The wizard quite possibly has burly HP due to shapechange, and possibly bite of the werebear. This would be very hard to pull off against a persistomancer, but not impossible. Edit: I'm also not sure whether there's a way for you to learn whether your HP > target's reliably in a combat situation, so you're also gambling by even trying.

[Namfuak]

Fighter 7/divine crusader 1

Most spells either have a save or a to-hit requirement, which is generally a touch or ranged touch. Very few have both. Death touch isn't that unusual in that regard, except that it's an ability available to spellcasters, rather than a spell.

This post brings up the good point of what specific level are we shooting for here? As someone else mentioned, a level 1 wizard is actually pretty vulnerable, since even with something like mage armor he is pretty easily hittable by melee and even ranged attacks. On the other hand, a 20th level wizard likely isn't.

[Vaz]

At that level, you yourself have also got to get through his guys who stand in the way.

A Barbarian running towards an enemy spellcaster guarded by other barbarians still has to survive those barbarians.

[Hirax]

This post brings up the good point of what specific level are we shooting for here? As someone else mentioned, a level 1 wizard is actually pretty vulnerable, since even with something like mage armor he is pretty easily hittable by melee and even ranged attacks. On the other hand, a 20th level wizard likely isn't.

Well, polymorph is available at level 7, so there's a good HP rocket right there. Though it's not likely to be up 24/7, so that's a plus.

[huttj509]

I don't see anyone going around complaining that clerics are overpowered, even though according to the tiers they are just as overpowered as wizards.

You've never heard of CoDzilla?

[The Glyphstone]

"Show me on the effigy where the Death cleric touched you..."

[Garan]

"Show me on the effigy where the Death cleric touched you..."

I'm glad I'm not the person that had to make that joke. It was pretty much implied from the beginning.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

"Show me on the effigy where the Death cleric touched you..."

I'm glad I'm not the person that had to make that joke. It was pretty much implied from the beginning.

So, the answer to wizards is molesting them as children? I suppose that could lead to them growing up without the self-confidence to be a really OP wizard.


Of course some of them will be motivated by this and become true TO paranoid wizards so they can never be victimized again.

Dark Blue for dark jokes.

[Flickerdart]

Fighter 7/divine crusader 1

Most spells either have a save or a to-hit requirement, which is generally a touch or ranged touch. Very few have both. Death touch isn't that unusual in that regard, except that it's an ability available to spellcasters, rather than a spell.
A Fighter 7/Divine Crusader 1 has an effective Cleric level of either 1 (if we are being generous and decide that DC levels count) or 0. So it would only work on a wizard with 1d6 HP remaining.

[Iron Tarkus]

An ability that doesn't work on targets that are not already almost dead...

I'm thinking a better answer is in order. Surely a Cleric can do far better than this. The AMF shell build for example would be much better for Cleric vs Wizard where you're the Cleric. The Wizard can still shoot Orbs at you but you still have all your buffs. It's not an assured win but you have favorable odds.

[White_Drake]

This made me think of Tsukiko. Really LOVE the undead.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't see anyone going around complaining that clerics are overpowered, even though according to the tiers they are just as overpowered as wizards.

Uhm, they are overpowered, and people complain about them being so all the time?

[Hirax]

Uhm, they are overpowered, and people complain about them being so all the time?

I agree with this. Wizards are arguably more overpowered, which is why they're people's go to reference when talking about how casters are overpowered.

[Story]

Surely a Cleric can do far better than this. The AMF shell build for example would be much better for Cleric vs Wizard where you're the Cleric. The Wizard can still shoot Orbs at you but you still have all your buffs. It's not an assured win but you have favorable odds.

If they're not in the AMF, that means they can be targeted by spells normally. The only thing it would protect against is summons and some types of AOEs.

And besides, Wizards can do doughnut AMFs too.

[TuggyNE]

If I might ask, how? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is possible, but I appear to be missing the how. So I suppose I could use some elaboration.

Piggy Knowles' listing is pretty comprehensive, although it leaves out Abjurant Champion, which is quite useful for cranking AC up.

[WhatBigTeeth]

If they're not in the AMF, that means they can be targeted by spells normally. The only thing it would protect against is summons and some types of AOEs.

And besides, Wizards can do doughnut AMFs too.
Initiate of mystra is the usual cleric AMF shell reference, probably what's being discussed here. It doesn't exclude the caster from the AMF, just lets the caster use his own spells despite the AMF. That's a trick that's much more difficult for a wizard to handle than doughnut AMFs

But if we're talking wizard v. cleric, they're casting pretty much the same effects, and if either doesn't have a particular trick up their own sleeve, they can use crafting, calling, miracles, anyspell, substitute domain, shapechange or wishes to access those effects anyway.

In a battle between the two, it's more a matter of which player overlooked a type of attack to defend against than a matter of which class has better tools.

[Story]

Ah, good old Cheater of Mystra. I figured that would be banned if Incantrix is.