PDA

View Full Version : Why does D&D have no Gollum?



tbok1992
2013-01-18, 09:22 AM
I'm serious about asking this. Given that D&D ripped off everything else from LotR (Wraiths, Smaug-like dragons, elves, dwarves, "halflings", orcs, ect.), why has there never been a monster based on Gollum?

I mean, given that almost all other races have an evil counterpart (Elves have drow, dwarves have Duegar, gnomes sort of have Svinferblin), why didn't they make an evil counterpart race to the Halflings based on Gollum? I mean, it'd make sense, and be better than those stupid ones they introduced in the Book of Vile Darkness.

Yora
2013-01-18, 09:31 AM
I think Gollum is actually just a halfling ghoul.

Zombimode
2013-01-18, 10:10 AM
Because Gollum is not a race, but an unique individual. If anything he is a templated halfling.

Jay R
2013-01-18, 10:10 AM
Gollum is a unique character, not a race.

D&D didn't copy specific characters. There is no Bilbo, but there are (were) hobbits. There is no Gandalf, but there are wizards. There is no Smaug, but there are dragons. There is no Witch-King of Angmar, but there are wraiths.

Gollum is merely a hobbit (or near-hobbit, related to the Stoors), corrupted by centuries of contact with an evil artifact.

[Besides, early D&D parties killed everything they met. If we had encountered Gollum in an early game, Pity would not have stayed our hand. So he's just a random encounter - a low-level sneak, hardly worth noticing.]

Yora
2013-01-18, 10:11 AM
Ghoul-template halfling. :smalltongue:

Lord Il Palazzo
2013-01-18, 10:13 AM
I mean, given that almost all other races have an evil counterpart (Elves have drow, dwarves have Duegar, gnomes sort of have Svinferblin), why didn't they make an evil counterpart race to the Halflings based on Gollum? I mean, it'd make sense, and be better than those stupid ones they introduced in the Book of Vile Darkness.For starters, Gollum wasn't part of a race of Gollum-folk; he was a hobbit (or hobbit-like creature, if memory serves) who was transformed/corrupted into his current state. I think a halfling with some sort of acquired condition (maybe a template; I'm not familiar with how such things were implemented in early editions) would be how the game would model that rather than creating a whole race to represent one individual.

On preview, what Jay R and Zombimode said.

Dr Bwaa
2013-01-18, 10:14 AM
I think Gollum is actually just a halfling ghoul.

+1. Gollum is a one-of-a-kind creature: a halfling with an acquired template (e.g. ghoul). It wouldn't make a lot of sense to make a whole new race for him.

EDIT: oh god ninjas everywhere help

Hyena
2013-01-18, 10:14 AM
Actually, I believe he is Feral halfling.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-01-18, 10:29 AM
Pun-pun erased his memory and became Gollum.

nedz
2013-01-18, 01:38 PM
Because there is no One Ring — though it's an amusing plot concept.

What if some BBEG created an artefact which gave him power over all wielders of magic rings ? Almost all high level characters would be in his power Muhahahahaaa.

thirdkingdom
2013-01-18, 01:53 PM
According to a thread on another forum, started by Mike Mornard, one of the original people playing with Gygax in what would become OD&D, Gary hated the Lord of the Rings and specific references to LOTR were removed over time. So, the first printing (of Chainmail, perhaps? I can't recall) mentioned using a balrog as a PC. This was quickly changed.

tbok1992
2013-01-18, 09:32 PM
For starters, Gollum wasn't part of a race of Gollum-folk; he was a hobbit (or hobbit-like creature, if memory serves) who was transformed/corrupted into his current state. I think a halfling with some sort of acquired condition (maybe a template; I'm not familiar with how such things were implemented in early editions) would be how the game would model that rather than creating a whole race to represent one individual.

On preview, what Jay R and Zombimode said.

True, but I do think the idea of Gollum could serve as a good basis for a race of Halfling-evil-counterparts, spindly, emaciated and insane halflings corrupted by some greater power. I mean, it'd be better than those stupid Jerran.

Also, I did hear before how Gygax hated Lord of the Rings and only included stuff from it at Arneson's instence, so that's probably the reason why. So, sort of on that kick, I have another question relating to the game's origins.

I remember reading on /tg/ that there was a famous female science fiction author who actually did a lot of work on the Drow, though they were originally just supposed to be very pale elves. Though, she wanted to take it farther as a sort of Bizarro-Gor, such as the fact that Driders were originally supposed to be the sterile male drow, with the females reproducing with actual spiders.

Does anybody know who that was, because I seem to have forgotten it? I think it may have been Andre Norton, but I could be wrong.

joe
2013-01-19, 03:22 AM
First Edition did introduce a creature called the Skulk, which is decidedly Gollum-like. It made it's way into 2nd and 3rd editions. Not so sure about 4th, but I'm sure someone on this forum would know for that.


I mean, it'd be better than those stupid Jerran.

I always thought the Jerran were supposed to be a throwback to the halfling cannibals from Dark Sun. I know they're never stated as such, but that was the impression I got.

ActionReplay
2013-01-19, 10:36 AM
Why does D&D have no Gollum? Why it does. You just can't see him. He is wearing his precious at the moment.

LibraryOgre
2013-01-19, 10:50 AM
I'm serious about asking this. Given that D&D ripped off everything else from LotR (Wraiths, Smaug-like dragons, elves, dwarves, "halflings", orcs, ect.), why has there never been a monster based on Gollum?

Of the ones you list, only halflings and orcs made their first appearance in LotR. The others have long lists of antecedents in the religions and folklores of Europe; hardly surprising, given Tolkien's education.

nedz
2013-01-19, 12:04 PM
Of the ones you list, only halflings and orcs made their first appearance in LotR. The others have long lists of antecedents in the religions and folklores of Europe; hardly surprising, given Tolkien's education.

Well he did redefine Elves and Dwarves into what we now think of as them. Also the various kinds of elves, though Drow are not Moriaquenda.

Treblain
2013-01-19, 02:59 PM
Hobbit, kobold, orc, ogre, goblin, troll, gnome, gremlin, and so on were all words for creatures of European folklore, but the folklore was rarely consistent on what exactly they were, and the words got recycled by fantasy authors. Some fantasy fiction, including LotR, keeps to this, hence why there are multiple names for everything. IIRC, Tolkien didn't really make any distinction between orcs and goblins, for example.

Khedrac
2013-01-19, 04:39 PM
IIRC, Tolkien didn't really make any distinction between orcs and goblins, for example.Close but not quite true - "goblin" was the common* name for the race, "orc" was the elven name for the race (not sure which elven tongue though).
*Here "common" means the language spoken in the Shire.

I'm glad you mentioned "hobbit" as an old term - that's something I only found out very recently.

Slipperychicken
2013-01-19, 04:54 PM
Gollum is what happens when you reach Sanity -10.

Flickerdart
2013-01-19, 04:57 PM
Because there is no One Ring — though it's an amusing plot concept.

What if some BBEG created an artefact which gave him power over all wielders of magic rings ? Almost all high level characters would be in his power Muhahahahaaa.
A similar artifact series already exists - the Orbs of Dragonkind are powerful items, but the wielder of the Gold orb can dominate the holder of any other within a mile.

GolemsVoice
2013-01-19, 05:08 PM
It's also much harder to make a civilization out of Gollum. Yout could take the Orcs and Hobbits more or less straight from the books, and change next to nothing, while Gollum, per se, isn't a race or a civilization.

JadedDM
2013-01-19, 09:19 PM
I always thought the Meazel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meazel) was meant to be like Gollum. They are subterranean, look like Gollum, and their name even kind of sounds like 'Smeagol.'

Flickerdart
2013-01-19, 10:17 PM
Sounds more like a disease to me.

nedz
2013-01-19, 10:24 PM
The Meazel is from 1E's FF so it's most likely a 3rd party monster from White Dwarf.

Flickerdart
2013-01-20, 12:24 AM
The Meazel is from 1E's FF so it's most likely a 3rd party monster from White Dwarf.
Monsters of Faerun for 3e, actually.

nedz
2013-01-20, 06:26 AM
Monsters of Faerun for 3e, actually.

Er No.
Check JadedDM's link.
The picture shown is scanned from the 1E FF p63.
Credited to Dermot Jackson.

The 3E version first appeared in Monsters of Faerun sure, but the monster is older.

Flickerdart
2013-01-20, 11:11 AM
{{scrubbed}}

tbok1992
2013-01-20, 11:50 AM
It's also much harder to make a civilization out of Gollum. Yout could take the Orcs and Hobbits more or less straight from the books, and change next to nothing, while Gollum, per se, isn't a race or a civilization.

This is true, but I think it could be done. An underground civilization of withered, warped, insane hobbits changed by evil powers, who are pretty much the butt-monkeys of The Underdark with a Climb Speed and Low-light vision sounds good to me. Maybe the hirearchy of their crude "civilization" could be based on the mental disorders had by each of them.

Ashtagon
2013-01-20, 12:13 PM
I always imagined D&D goblins to be the "evil halfling" trope.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-01-20, 03:00 PM
According to a thread on another forum, started by Mike Mornard, one of the original people playing with Gygax in what would become OD&D, Gary hated the Lord of the Rings and specific references to LOTR were removed over time. So, the first printing (of Chainmail, perhaps? I can't recall) mentioned using a balrog as a PC. This was quickly changed.
A balrog...PC???

TuggyNE
2013-01-20, 07:03 PM
A balrog...PC???

Yes. Monstrous PC races have a long and noble history in D&D. :smallwink:

nedz
2013-01-20, 07:12 PM
Bah, a high level Elf can take out a Balrog any day :smallcool:

That must have been in the very early days though. Balrogs Balors were Demon Type VI "Balor" in the AD&D 1E MM — and they were only 6+6 HD — that's 6d8+6 in modern parlance. Power creep is not a new thing.

Ashtagon
2013-01-21, 12:57 AM
Bah, a high level Elf can take out a Balrog any day :smallcool:

That must have been in the very early days though. Balrogs Balors were Demon Type VI "Balor" in the AD&D 1E MM — and they were only 6+6 HD — that's 6d8+6 in modern parlance. Power creep is not a new thing.

Take that in a context where characters were expected to be retiring around 10th level. As a rule of thumb, I'd double the HD of any creature from a 1e bestiary when converting it to 3e.

Jay R
2013-01-21, 10:55 AM
That must have been in the very early days though. Balrogs Balors were Demon Type VI "Balor" in the AD&D 1E MM — and they were only 6+6 HD — that's 6d8+6 in modern parlance. Power creep is not a new thing.

Earlier than you know. The type VI demon (called a Balrog originally and then a Balor in ADD) didn't appear until the third supplement of original D&D came out (Eldritch Wizardry). This was a couple of years before AD&D.

But Balrogs existed in the original 3-booklet whitebox edition. The mention of a Balrog PC came in Men and Magic - the first book in the white box. According to Monsters and Treasures (the second book in the white box), Balrogs were 10d6. (All hit dice were d6 until the first supplement Greyhawk changed that.)

SilverLeaf167
2013-01-21, 01:54 PM
While I agree that Gollum really resembles a ghoul visually, and maybe their names sound a little similar as well, that's pretty much where the resemblance ends. I'm pretty sure Gollum isn't undead, nor does he have a paralyzing touch.

I do agree that he's some sort of halfling with special properties. Perhaps a lot of Taint from the ring?

nedz
2013-01-21, 03:02 PM
Earlier than you know. The type VI demon (called a Balrog originally and then a Balor in ADD) didn't appear until the third supplement of original D&D came out (Eldritch Wizardry). This was a couple of years before AD&D.

But Balrogs existed in the original 3-booklet whitebox edition. The mention of a Balrog PC came in Men and Magic - the first book in the white box. According to Monsters and Treasures (the second book in the white box), Balrogs were 10d6. (All hit dice were d6 until the first supplement Greyhawk changed that.)

Where they at any point 6d6+6 ?

Jay R
2013-01-21, 07:41 PM
Where they at any point 6d6+6 ?

Not that I know of.

Whitebox: 10d6
Greyhawk: 10d8
Eldritch Wizardry: 8d10
AD&D 1E: 8d8 + 8

After that, I'm not sure.

Acanous
2013-01-21, 09:04 PM
Wait, drow who breed with Spiders? Whaaat?

ShadowFireLance
2013-01-21, 09:09 PM
Wait, drow who breed with Spiders? Whaaat?

Oh Tiamat, The Image, The IMAGE, BRAIN BLEACH!

Ravens_cry
2013-01-22, 12:11 AM
Wait, drow who breed with Spiders? Whaaat?
Where do you think Drider came from?:smallamused:

Slipperychicken
2013-01-22, 12:51 AM
Wait, drow who breed with Spiders? Whaaat?

Considering all the strange creatures and bizarre sexual deviance in D&D (Half-Dragon Ooze, anyone?), I'm not at all surprised by Drow getting it on with giant spiders. Kind of squicked out, but by no means surprised :smalltongue:

JustinA
2013-01-22, 02:49 AM
I mean, given that almost all other races have an evil counterpart (Elves have drow, dwarves have Duegar, gnomes sort of have Svinferblin), why didn't they make an evil counterpart race to the Halflings based on Gollum? I mean, it'd make sense, and be better than those stupid ones they introduced in the Book of Vile Darkness.

The BoVD "evil halflings" are modeled on the Gollum archetype: Halflings transformed by corrupted magic that turned them into "angry, bitter, and savage" individuals who are "scary, untruthful, and sneaky"? That's Gollum. About the only thing Cook didn't do was give each of them a magical ring at character creation.

Prior to that you also have the cannibal, cave-dwelling halflings from Dark Sun.


I think Gollum is actually just a halfling ghoul.

I also agree with this. Not a precise match. More of a half-wraith. But definitely an undead-like transformation of a living creature.

awa
2013-01-24, 05:42 PM
I thought dark sun haflings lived in jungles and were supposed to be some kinda darkest Africa pygmy knock off.

RedWarlock
2013-01-24, 11:35 PM
I thought dark sun haflings lived in jungles and were supposed to be some kinda darkest Africa pygmy knock off.

Have you SEEN anything about Dark Sun? Where would they possibly have room for jungles? It's a dying desert world, after all.

The closest thing I can recall to Gollum are the Meenlocks from FR, at least in the "wretched, hunched degenerate" creature category.

The other big problem with Gollum is that he's not actually that threatening to the average PC. For Frodo and Sam he's sneaky and underhanded, but they're hardly trained for adventure, and even then they manage to overpower him. Compared to full-size Men or other beings, he's a nuisance, but not much more.

To make Gollum into a threat to a party of adventurers, he'd be a group of similar creatures, like goblins or kobolds, but that doesn't really fit his nature, and changes the definition of what you're trying to make.

Ashtagon
2013-01-25, 12:33 AM
Actually, awa is right about Dark Sun halflings (at least for 2e era). They don't hail from the main campaigning areas.

awa
2013-01-25, 12:41 AM
Did they change the setting for 4th edition?

Ashtagon
2013-01-25, 03:47 AM
Did they change the setting for 4th edition?

I would not be astonished if they had. Consider what happened to the Forgotten Realms.