So this player wants to play psionicist

[hymer]

In what so far looks to be a party of tier 4ishness (rogue or scout has been mentioned, and one guy is liable to play fighter), one player has asked whether he can play a psionic character. I've confirmed that he can, but reserved the right to deal with specific instances as they're brought before me.
I haven't played a psionicist since 2nd edition (very different animal), and I haven't had one in my game yet in 3.5 (though I've been in party with one - seemed a lot like a sorcerer with a little more nova potential).
So to those of you who know these psions and whatnot: Any hints at some potholes to watch out for? I'll go start on the two psi handbooks.

[Douglas]

Number one most important commonly overlooked rule for psionics: You cannot spend more power points at a time than your manifester level.

Sure, dumping 5 power points on Mind Thrust makes it deal 5d10 damage. No, your level 1 Psion can't do that yet, even if he does have enough bonus PP to have 5. It takes a 5th level Psion to do a 5d10 Mind Thrust, and by that point it's a reasonable amount of damage (keeping in mind that it's single target and save negates, not save for half).

[docnessuno]

While an approximation you could think as psions as sorcerers with easier access to action-economy breaking but lower game-breaking tricks.

The things to watch out are imho only the sinchronicity power (wich can be abused), infinite PP tricks and permanent body switches. Banning those outright won't really affect a Psion playability but will save you many headaches. I'd also put the "linked power" on a watch list but i'd avoid banning it outright.

Ruling out those, you will find psions very managable. They still have some tricks up their sleeves that will probably surprise you, but nothing that can completely ruin your games.

Edit: If you are playing Eberron, i'd strongly suggest to smack the "power link" Quori embedded shards with the banhammer. And also smack any player mentioning them with the DMG.

[HunterOfJello]

First things first, read through the Expanded Psionic Handbook so that you know exactly how the system works and what its internal limitations are. Many problems that appear when players play new classes can be attributed to no one at the table actually understanding how the mechanics work.

Second, print out the Errata for the Expanded Psionic Handbook and make sure that the player is aware of the changes that have been made. Complete Psionic is also a form of errata for the XPH since it changes quite a few things about different powers. Whenever you want to look up a power, look in CP first, then the XPH. It may not save time, but it will save heartache.

Third, psions vary greatly depending on which specialty they choose. (All of them choose a specialty.) Find out which one your player is favoring and investigate that one. Telepathy is the most popular and has all the normal pitfalls that Enchantment spells do (and more when you add in Mind Swapping).

Fourth, set all material from Complete Psionic as Conditionally Banned. That is, it is banned until you unban it. There's a lot of generally overpowered stuff in that book (Anarchic Initiate for one), so set that status up as a precursor.

[hymer]

@ douglas and docnessuno: Duly noted both, thanks. Since this guy (or gal more likely) will be going into an area where there are no psionicists besides him- or herself, will the lack of access to others of their ilk hamper them? Training seems no problem at a cursory glance, but there's a lot of stuff about psionic items, which the character probably won't get any of if s/he doesn't make them personally.

@ HunterofJello: *facedesk* I'll just outlaw the whole four-letter-word business. I've got a campaign to manage and detail, I'm not gonna read three whole books.

[docnessuno]

Fourth, set all material from Complete Psionic as Conditionally Banned. That is, it is banned until you unban it. There's a lot of generally overpowered stuff in that book (Anarchic Initiate for one), so set that status up as a precursor.

If you consider the only decent psion PRC as overpowered, i guess you are on the school that think Mystic theurges are overpowered too. And don't even let me started on the good Wiz/sor/Cle PRCs.

Edit:

@ douglas and docnessuno: Duly noted both, thanks. Since this guy (or gal more likely) will be going into an area where there are no psionicists besides him- or herself, will the lack of access to others of their ilk hamper them? Training seems no problem at a cursory glance, but there's a lot of stuff about psionic items, which the character probably won't get any of if s/he doesn't make them personally.
The lack of psionic items is obviously not optimal for a Psion, but won't cripple his character. I'd just make sure to let the player know it before he settles for a Psion.


Edit2:

@ HunterofJello: *facedesk* I'll just outlaw the whole four-letter-word business. I've got a campaign to manage and detail, I'm not gonna read three whole books.
Uless you are also banning the other complete books, i suggest you to avoid this. double standards are bad, and outside od the things i have already mentioned there is nothing really "broken" in Complete psionic. The Anarchinc initiate PRC for example is much more tame than corresponding PRCs for arcane casters (i'd rate it aroud the same power/utility than MotAO for a Sorcerer, not even coming close to PRCS like incantatrix or Iot7V).

[HunterOfJello]

@ douglas and docnessuno: Duly noted both, thanks. Since this guy (or gal more likely) will be going into an area where there are no psionicists besides him- or herself, will the lack of access to others of their ilk hamper them? Training seems no problem at a cursory glance, but there's a lot of stuff about psionic items, which the character probably won't get any of if s/he doesn't make them personally.

There are a few types of manifesters/psionicists in 3.5. If the person wants to play the Psion class, then it will be perfectly fine to be the only psion around. If the person wants to play the Erudite class, then it will be a major problem. However, few people ever actually play Erudites from what I've seen. (Note: the Erudite class can be found in the back of Complete Psionic)



~~~~~


Another thing worth noting is that the default mechanics in place for psionics and magic are that they do interact with one another. Dispel psionics works on magic, Dispel magic works on Psionics, power resistance = magic resistance, etc. However, some people play where "Psionics is different". I advise against this. Don't allow your player to convince you to allow that and don't trick yourself into thinking that it would be a good idea to allow it.

[Yora]

Psions don't really need other sources of psionic power other than their own mind. Getting their hands on psionic "scrolls" and "wands" would be difficult, but pretty much all other magic items work for psions just as well as for any other classes. Other uniquely psionic items are usually related to fighting other psions, so they are of no use when there are few other psions around anyway.

[docnessuno]

There are a few types of manifesters/psionicists in 3.5. If the person wants to play the Psion class, then it will be perfectly fine to be the only psion around. If the person wants to play the Erudite class, then it will be a major problem. However, few people ever actually play Erudites from what I've seen. (Note: the Erudite class can be found in the back of Complete Psionic)

~~~~~

Another thing worth noting is that the default mechanics in place for psionics and magic are that they do interact with one another. Dispel psionics works on magic, Dispel magic works on Psionics, power resistance = magic resistance, etc. However, some people play where "Psionics is different". I advise against this. Don't allow your player to convince you to allow that and don't trick yourself into thinking that it would be a good idea to allow it.

While i didn't agree on your previous comments i agree on those. Erudite is not game-breaking unless you are using the spell-to-power variant, but it still can be a good idea to outlaw it untill you familiarized with psionics.
And while i love the "psionic is different" variant (gives a real AD&D feeling), it's incredibly hard to balance it properly, so don't allow it unless you know what you are doing very well.

[Andreaz]

I suggest you do a few things...
1) unify completely psionics with other magics. Just like spellcraft covers arcane and divine, it can also cover psionics. Leave Power Resistance, Psicraft and Use Psionic Device in the trash.

2) You are right, they feel like sorcerers. They can bring more power "at once", but their power never scales for free (no damage = caster level, for example...gotta pay for each die). As long as the manifester level and PP cost rule is not forgotten you'll be fine.

3) The truly broken tricks (infinite pp, sinchronicity) are already stated, so stay away from those.

4) Thrallherd is a nasty bastard :p Avoid it if you avoid Leadership.

5) Have fun! Psionics are a blast, and my personal experience is that they are far easier to incorporate in the game than arcanists. The only real hurdle is their "feel", but that's only a problem if you don't like Psykers, Jean Grey and airbenders :p

[Psyren]

There are a few types of manifesters/psionicists in 3.5. If the person wants to play the Psion class, then it will be perfectly fine to be the only psion around. If the person wants to play the Erudite class, then it will be a major problem. However, few people ever actually play Erudites from what I've seen. (Note: the Erudite class can be found in the back of Complete Psionic)

It's also online. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1)


I suggest you do a few things...
1) unify completely psionics with other magics. Just like spellcraft covers arcane and divine, it can also cover psionics. Leave Power Resistance, Psicraft and Use Psionic Device in the trash.

Power Resistance I agree with, but for the other two, it can be interesting to make psions and mages slightly alien from each other. A -4 penalty on one side to identify the other's abilities or fool their items is a good compromise; it's similar to the same penalty applied to practitioners and opponents of shadow magic.

[Andreaz]

Good point.

[Keld Denar]

Friends don't let friends manifest Synchronicity. Or Affinity Field. Those are about the two most broken powers in the game. Some stuff is strong (you might want to place some practical limits on Psionic Minor Creation WRT creating organic poisons), but its not too out of line with what a wizard can do. They do have some weird yet interesting powers like Quiessence and Time Hop, but they are more or less balanced assuming your players don't get TOO creative with them. No more than creative use of Shrink Item or similar.

[Psyren]

Synchronicity is actually fine so long as you never allow more than one standard from it, don't allow its cost to be reduced and never allow its casting time to be reduced below a standard. So in other words, ban all metapsionics with it; its intended purpose, to allow you to ready an (unspecified) action in response to an unspecified trigger, is useful without being overpowered.

[docnessuno]

Synchronicity is actually fine so long as you never allow more than one standard from it, don't allow its cost to be reduced and never allow its casting time to be reduced below a standard. So in other words, ban all metapsionics with it; its intended purpose, to allow you to ready an (unspecified) action in response to an unspecified trigger, is useful without being overpowered.

I agree, but banning a single power is easier then creating a number of exception for that power. And the ban won't cripple a psion at all.

[Starbuck_II]

@ douglas and docnessuno: Duly noted both, thanks. Since this guy (or gal more likely) will be going into an area where there are no psionicists besides him- or herself, will the lack of access to others of their ilk hamper them? Training seems no problem at a cursory glance, but there's a lot of stuff about psionic items, which the character probably won't get any of if s/he doesn't make them personally.

He needs the standard arcane stuff (+X headband, Con belt to boost low hp, etc)
He may want a wand of X (Dojre is psionic wand term), but as long as he has the basics he can always just craft the others.

[kestrel404]

In what so far looks to be a party of tier 4ishness (rogue or scout has been mentioned, and one guy is liable to play fighter), one player has asked whether he can play a psionic character. I've confirmed that he can, but reserved the right to deal with specific instances as they're brought before me.
I haven't played a psionicist since 2nd edition (very different animal), and I haven't had one in my game yet in 3.5 (though I've been in party with one - seemed a lot like a sorcerer with a little more nova potential).
So to those of you who know these psions and whatnot: Any hints at some potholes to watch out for? I'll go start on the two psi handbooks.


@ HunterofJello: *facedesk* I'll just outlaw the whole four-letter-word business. I've got a campaign to manage and detail, I'm not gonna read three whole books.

Most of the advice in this thread has been good, but it sounds like you don't want to learn the psionics system. Note that you don't have to read EVERYTHING all at once, but you're gonna want to sit down and read the non-fluff poriton of the XPH, or at the very least the D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) psionics, section before you run your first game. While psions are LIKE spellcasters, they are dissimilar enough that you're gonna want to know what the differences are in advance.

That's just general advice any time you're going to be seeing a completely new system. Here's some advice I've got for psionics specifically:

As noted, there are only a couple of really broken powers (and honestly, they're not even close to as broken as wizard powers of the same level). They're all pretty high level, so don't worry about it for early levels.

The Erudite is an interesting alternate base class to the psion. It's a psion that learns powers the way a wizard learns spells. It has two factors that limits it and people always forget them. First, you ONLY learn 2 power per level for free and they must be from the general psion list. Everything else you need to pick up from a power stone or another psionic character. If there are no other psions in your campaign, then Erudite as a class is just like a psion with a bunch of built in limitations and no specialization. Second, as soon as you pick up more levels in any class other than Erudite, you can no longer learn new powers outside of those 2/level you get. So Erudites basically can't use prestige classes (or at least not more than 10 levels worth on a 20th level character). And the 'class features' that an erudite gets are basically the same as a wizard gets - a bonus feat every 5 levels.

My only other advice is to be open minded. A psion is no more powerful than a sorceror, and often less so. If your psion is doing things an equal level sorceror would have a hard time doing, he's probably read one of the rules wrong (like he's using more PP than he's allowed to). As long as you trust the guy not to be a weenie, and he's willing to read and play by the rules, let him play his psion.

(And have the guy who's gonna play a fighter read the Tome of Battle. Seriously.)

[Psyren]

I agree, but banning a single power is easier then creating a number of exception for that power. And the ban won't cripple a psion at all.

It's not "a number of exceptions." Just add "this power cannot interact with metapsionics" and poof, 99% of the abuse is gone.

Some powers just need a clause like that, like Bestow Power needing the "cannot be cast from an item" and "cannot be made cheaper than the amount transferred" clauses. (Though it only got the latter in Pathfinder.)


He needs the standard arcane stuff (+X headband, Con belt to boost low hp, etc)
He may want a wand of X (Dojre is psionic wand term), but as long as he has the basics he can always just craft the others.

He can craft some of the magic (wondrous) items too - using the rules in MiC, Animal Affinity can be used to craft a headband of intellect, for instance.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, you don't have to read everything. Psions, similar to sorcerers, pick their powers known on a per level basis. They get a few more, but the mechanics are similar. Thus, the only powers you really need to read are the ones the player learns. Erudite does complicate that a bit though. Other than that, just read the basics (psionic overview) and maybe the stuff regarding Psionic focus, which is a little, but not very, confusing.

[Rubik]

Avoid the Complete Psionic "errata" like the plague. It's stupid and nerfs psionics unnecessarily.

[ericgrau]

I dunno there was at least 1 power that did way way too much damage for its level and that got much needed errata.

Besides the common mistakes I think you can handle the few powers with power creep on a case by case basis. Anything that your group can't do without psionics, take a good look at it and decide whether or not it's still fair compared to what the rest of the party can do.

Though if he's a pure psion in a party that doesn't have any casters, he'll stick out purely by virtue of being unique. More than a 2nd caster would. If he's merely fulfilling a new role then don't swing the nerf bat, as useful as filling a new role may be. Diversity is a good thing to encourage.

[Rubik]

I dunno there was at least 1 power that did way way too much damage for its level and that got much needed errata.I'm pretty sure it's Energy Missile you're talking about, and the original power augment is such that each power point spent augments the DC by 1. I've heard people say that's overpowered, but a lot of other people are fine with it. After all, it's a blasty power (which is substandard direct damage anyway), and it's a discipline power (which should be stronger than a standard power regardless). I'm okay with the original wording, myself.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm pretty sure it's Energy Missile you're talking about, and the original power augment such that each power point spent augments the DC by 1. I've heard people say that's overpowered, but a lot of other people are fine with it. After all, it's a blasty power (which is substandard direct damage anyway), and it's a discipline power (which should be stronger than a standard power regardless). I'm okay with the original wording, myself.

Agreed, CP has too many nerfs.
Weakens a few powers, weakens all Astral Construct (not not limiting arcane summoning for same reasons), etc.

If you ignore the nerfs CP is a good book.

[Rubik]

Agreed, CP has too many nerfs.
Weakens a few powers, weakens all Astral Construct (not not limiting arcane summoning for same reasons), etc.The supposed "reason" Astral Construct was nerfed down to 1 construct at a time was because the writer of that portion didn't like how his party's wilder could use wild surge to create really powerful constructs.

I have no idea how the "solution" fixes the "problem," however.

[icefractal]

Energy Missile, you could keep in un-nerfed form. Energy Stun should probably be nerfed to the standard DC rate though. It's still a decent power without the crazy-high DCs, and auto-stun can be problematic.

The Astral Construct nerf though - throw that in the trashcan, it's poorly considered and unfair, considering that all spellcasters (especially Druids) can summon to their hearts' content.

[Novawurmson]

Take a look at the "Psionics is Overpowered (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=37.html)" essay. It reinforces most of what has been said here and adds a little more.

[ericgrau]

The problem with energy missile is not only the damage which is a little higher than normal, it's the hitting 5 targets part. Most fights will have at least 3 foes, if not 5 or more. 13.5-22.5 damage per manifester level per round is a bit much, even at save for half. At CR EL 7 all the foes put together might have 110 hp, and a level 5 kineticist is doing 67.5-112.5 damage per round. Save half but that still averages around 55-95 per round. From 1 party member. So he wins the fight all by himself with no party help in 2 rounds, sometimes 3. When it dominates fights it isn't "just damage" anymore. It will break anyone's campaign except in very high or theoretical optimization discussions. From the OP's description this does not describe his group at all. In fact he may be competing against other damage dealers and putting them to shame.

[Spuddles]

If you are curious how a psion will play, it is dependent on the powers picked, but I consider psionics the ToB of casters. Thanks to augmentation, it's hard to screw up power selection, and blasting is generally more efficient.

Expect a little more damage out of your psionic casters, but they won't have as much endurance if it's overchannel energy missile every round.

Erudites are broken in that how their key mechanic works is unclear. If interpreted conservatively, they are probably functionally weaker than a psion. If interpreted liberally, they're balls to the wall crazy. They are noticeably terrible at first level, and the next 3 to 5, if you go with a middle road interpretation.

Psions get some really neat, and powerful, tricks. Psicrystals can be used as a source of extra feats; psy reform means 15 min and trivial xp later, and someone gets to repick skills, feats, powers/spells. Share pain/vigor with a psicrystal means a huge pool of extra hit points. Schism is an extra power every round.

They also can do pretty neat stuff, like control light, control fire, see with their ears, and manifest touchsight (a sort of blindsight/tremorsense hybrid). While not earth shattering like binding a nightmare for 9th level spells at level 9, or shapechange, or chaingating, or even a web spell, it's pretty useful and potent stuff.

[Spuddles]

The problem with energy missile is not only the damage which is a little higher than normal, it's the hitting 5 targets part. Most fights will have at least 3 foes, if not 5 or more. 13.5-22.5 damage per manifester level per round is a bit much, even at save for half. At CR 7 all the foes put together might have 110 hp, and a level 5 kineticist is doing 67.5-112.5 damage per round. Save half but that still averages around 50-85 per round. From 1 party member. So he wins the fight all by himself with no party help in 2 rounds, sometimes 3. When it dominates fights it isn't "just damage" anymore. It will break anyone's campaign except in very high or theoretical optimization discussions. From the OP's description this does not describe his group at all. In fact he may be competing against other damage dealers and putting them to shame.

Assuming that all targets are tightly bunched enough for that to work, none of them have power resist/energy resist, and there is only a couple fights a day, sure.

But if the DM is doing a good job and putting multiple encounters out, psions run out of juice pretty fast. You can't rope trick to safety at level 5, not without a wizard and some extend metamagic.

Given the more mechanically advantageous options out there, I like that psionics blasting has enough little edges to make it worthwhile both as a power known and as an action/pp investment- augmentation, switch between energy types, different energy effects, generally better precision.

OP should be warned about energy missile, but it's hardly "theoretically optimization". An elf wizard casting meteor storm at first level is TO. Shooting 5 monsters grouped together that all fail their ref save, lack sr and energy resistance, and doing 5d6 damage to each is called fireball.

Simply spreading opponents out a little, sprinkling in energy/power resistance, and having more than 2 encounters a day will make energy missile less impressive .

[hymer]

Whoah, lot of people responding. Thanks all! Some responses:

@ Andreaz & Psyren: Thanks for the info and discussion, very useful.

@ Kel Denar, Psyren and docnessuno: I’ll keep those powers in mind (though Affinity Field is quite a way off, though I hope we’ll get there in the end), and I’ll have a little conversation if Synchronicity gets picked. Isn’t that a Police song, btw?

@ Starbuck II: Thanks, I won’t be too worried there, then.

@ kestrel404: Thanks for the pointers, especially on the Erudite. That obviously wouldn’t fly in this campaign, he’d be a lot better off playing a psion.
(I resent that particular attitude regarding ToB, though. Nothing personal, you’re not alone in saying what you do. But I have players, friends, whose grasp of the system is tenuous at best; who prefer not to be buffed, because they can’t parse the math; who find power attack calculations overwhelming. Glibly telling them to drop their favourite class and read ToB would be presumptive at best.)

@ Rubik: Those errata sound interesting, where can I find them? :smalltongue:

@ ericgrau: Thanks. I prefer to talk softly and just have the bats and hammers in view, so we agree there. :smallsmile: I’ll keep an eye out for energy missile and have a soft talk with the player regarding it if (when) it comes up.

@ Spuddles: Thanks. I’m not worried about Erudite, since it requires other psionic people or things to work. There won’t be any.
Isn’t the crystal something of a liability, too? I seem to remember some controversy on how, if at all, you replace them.
Sounds allright, though, to hear you tell it.

[Spuddles]

There are no penalties for losing one, but how you get one back is mysterious. If using a psicrystal as a feat battery, then it doesn't really matter what happens if you lose it because you won't lose it.

Personally, a feat that gives you a liability isn't very cool. If it took 24 hours and 25xp/lvl to get one back, that would be fairly reasonable, imo. If you give it familiar rules (100s of xp; wait a year and a day), don't expect it to be used. But then, it is a really useful ability in a party full of tier 4s. You may not want it used.

High damage at midlevels is going to be a problem, if your players haven't optimized much. But AoE damage + great cleave is actually really powerful. In the above example of two energy missiles killing 5 cr 7 opponents; it could just be one energy missile and 4 cleaves. In which case, the party will love him.

Psions burn out of juice, fast. I cannot emphasize that enough. So if you want the rest of the party to do stuff, wind the psion a little.

I regularly play T2 & T1 in parties with T4 & T5, but we all have fun because I am a wizard- I am supposed to come up with a solution. They are a fighter or a rogue- they are supposed to be cutting and cleaving and picking locks.