An Impossible Situation: How Would You?

[sabelo2000]

Setting up the endgame for my campaign, and writing the final Boss encounters to take place maybe a year from now IRL. Taking the gloves off of course, because by this time the party will be near-Epic, so I figure it's their responsibility to respond to any situation I throw at them. Fair 'nuff.

That said, I'd like to be prepared for whatever they might, in turn, throw back at ME. So here's the first Boss encounter, designed to be non-combat and which will be familiar to anyone who's read Good Omens.

In order to retrieve the MacGuffin, the party is challenged by the god Olidamarra to "...an obscure variant of poker, in a pitch-black room with blank cards, for infinite stakes, against a dealer who never tells you the rules but who smiles all the time"

What would you do?

Assume the following:
The game, while impossible, is fair. I won't fudge any dice, and while Olidamarra can see what's printed on the blank cards, he can't see what's in the players' hands.

Winning means getting the MacGuffin: Losing means TPK of some sort.

Although he's Chaotic, Olidamarra swears by something inviolate (even for gods) to honor the terms of this challenge. He can't renege.

The party is high-level but not optimized. Most of the group is not deeply steeped in D&D, so Core books are the primary resource.

[Story]

The room being dark is easily bypassed, but I'm not sure how you'd get around not knowing the rules. I guess you somehow need to trick Olidamarra into failing a save, or get another god to help you, or go full Cheese Apothesosis.

[Feralventas]

Profession (Gambling).
Max out ranks.
Max out wisdom.
As many different-typed bonuses to the skill check as possible; enhancement, insight, competence, sacred, profane, anarchic, axiomatic, etc.

Beat chaos through mastery of the system, representing order incarnate.

Why in the dark if the cards are blank though? This doesn't seem like a game so much as an exercise in messing with mortals before killing them.

Edit: Alternative, tell him that it's a damn fool idea and offer a game of your own where he's required to play after diminishing himself temporarly to the state of mortality equal to those he plays against since otherwise he's clearly still being a coward unwilling to play fairly.

This is likely to get you killed in a lot of cases, but Olidamara is also the patron of bards and rogues and thieves, so refuge might be found in audacity.

[togapika]

If the cards are blank there isn't anything for Olidamarra to see. If he always smiles, it takes away facial expressions, which are a big part of poker players tells...

[avr]

Magic Jar & take over the dealer on the final hand, Legend Lore and/or Commune before the game to find out the rules, Moment of Prescience to beat the game thru pure luck, or even Wish to undo bad luck.

[NichG]

The impossibility here is more the understanding and generation of meaning behind a meaningless game. That is to say, the mortals are basically playing Calvinball against someone who can actually enforce the rules.

So, given that the game itself is meaningless (not impossible per se), I'd do what any good thief or con man should do in that situation. Utilize distraction. Olidammara might be swearing by something inviolate to the gods, but does that mean its also inviolate to mortals? I'd have someone steal the MacGuffin while Olidammara is ostensibly paying attention to the card game. To do so, I'd have to make the card game as well as the con as ridiculous as possible so that Olidammara wants to let the con progress, if only to see what is going to happen next.

If I do it right, Olidammara should see it coming from a mile away (or 20 weeks or whatever the domain future-telling gives him), but despite that should let it proceed up until the point where its too late because its just too awesome to stop.

Of course the details of such a con are context dependent to a large degree - where the MacGuffin is held, what it is exactly, what it does, where the poker game will be held, etc, etc, so I can't really propose details here.

[TuggyNE]

The impossibility here is more the understanding and generation of meaning behind a meaningless game. That is to say, the mortals are basically playing Calvinball against someone who can actually enforce the rules.

So, given that the game itself is meaningless (not impossible per se), I'd do what any good thief or con man should do in that situation. Utilize distraction. Olidammara might be swearing by something inviolate to the gods, but does that mean its also inviolate to mortals? I'd have someone steal the MacGuffin while Olidammara is ostensibly paying attention to the card game. To do so, I'd have to make the card game as well as the con as ridiculous as possible so that Olidammara wants to let the con progress, if only to see what is going to happen next.

If I do it right, Olidammara should see it coming from a mile away (or 20 weeks or whatever the domain future-telling gives him), but despite that should let it proceed up until the point where its too late because its just too awesome to stop.

Of course the details of such a con are context dependent to a large degree - where the MacGuffin is held, what it is exactly, what it does, where the poker game will be held, etc, etc, so I can't really propose details here.

There is much wisdom here.

[mcv]

Aren't there terribly underused spells that allow you to read invisible or magical writing? If Olidammara can read the cards, then with the right spell, so can the PCs. There's still the issue of the rules, though.

[Erik Vale]

I'll assume the game means nothing, becuase you can't win barring complete fluke given blank cards. I'll assume for the moment true seeing doesn't work because of "Insert gibberesh here" or "Is Artifact"

If I wanted to win, I would insist he play with my deck, which I will let him make to be blank to all eyes.
This deck happens to be one of many things, and then I would begin praying... Loudly... To Tymora... Did I mention loudly? And using all my luck feats? And my luck cleric domain? And using [Anything that grants rerolls or anything that helps luck here]?

Also, Olidamarra [Unless I'm completely wrong] shouldn't have future vision unless he picked it up after the dead guy stole his soul from Olidamarra [You know, the vestige... He juggles], otherwise the joke would have been ruined, however that's almost a moot point.

[S.K. Ren]

...Winning means getting the MacGuffin: Losing means TPK of some sort...

So RAW is they win if the get the MacGuffin, and they only lose if they TPK? Sounds like they can play the game as long as needed to win or steal the MacGuffin.



In order to retrieve the MacGuffin, the party is challenged by the god Olidamarra to "...an obscure variant of poker, in a pitch-black room with blank cards, for infinite stakes, against a dealer who never tells you the rules but who smiles all the time"

1) If it's pitch black;
They can't tell the cards are blank
They can't see him smiling
The cards likely have some other identification mark besides a visual one (Aura, Texture, Color, Smell)
Darkvision will be helpful, so will True Sight

2)Infinite Stakes, do you mean its a one round all in or they keep betting till they have nothing left resulting in multiple rounds? If they have multiple rounds then basically just memorize the rules by what he calls a win or loss and try to win on the final round. Kinda like calvin ball.

3)Obscure Variant? Knowledge check.

4) If you can make him deal a deck of many things make sure to ask him how many cards you each get and how many that is total to trigger the deck properly :P

[TypoNinja]

First level spell.

"Cheat"

Seriously though, if you have an epic level party they should have enough information gathering ability to learn how to play the game, legend lore, divinations, simple knowledge checks that high.

If they have access to Epic Spellcasating, and time enough to prepare (And foreknowledge) The wizard can pretty much just design an "I win" button spell. Hell lets just call it "Summon McGuffin" Take a Divination Seed, add a Teleportation seed, dial the range all the way up, allow no save or SR, and we have a winner.

Though you've given them a contest against a god of trickery. If it was me, I'd have the party Face stall while everybody else went and stole the McGuffin. Hes a god of trickery, whatever he really is after, it sure as hell isn't his stated goal.

[molten_dragon]

Use a scroll of commune to contact Olidamarra and ask him what the rules are.

Barring that, have summoned (intelligent) creatures play the game and watch them to figure out what the rules are.

Although my first choice would simply be to say screw the macguffin and find another way to kill the BBEG.

[Eldariel]

What Magi don't have, they produce.

If I were a Wizard: The rules might not be known to the players, but what about Gods? I can use Wish to cast Contact Other Plane in one standard action to glean a one-word version of the rules. I would turn to another Deity of Trickery; Boccob, Garl, Nerull, Hextor, Erythnul or some such, depending on who's most sympathetic to my cause/who's my deity and whose interests include us winning this game. I could also try a God of Knowledge though contacting Vecna seems like altogether a bad idea so I'd probably go with the Uncaring and see if he'd feel like caring today. I could use Commune to play 20 Questions with the rules. I might also use Legend Lore or Vision or something similar, again through Wish. Alternatively, depending on how bad I want to win I might go a bit higher with Wishes.

I would most certainly use Foresight to find a tip of the ends to any choice I make. I would simply use the spells that surpass all existent obscurity-generating effects to glean the path to victory. I would also roll Intelligence-checks with my epic Intelligence and massive Knowledges (further aided by Guidance of the Avatar or contemporaries, probably replicated by Limited Wish for efficiency) to try to deduct what I can with the rules I am given.


If I were a Cleric, I'd bring my own God into play with Miracle. I'd use most of the tricks I use with Wizard, just through different channels. I'd definitely play the game since I know Olidammara can outdo me in any brute force contest plus he's a God of Trickery. I'd play the game in a way he'd appreciate; might be I don't need to win to get what I want.

Using anything that directly affects the opponent is off the table so instead I'd focus all my magical prowess on deciphering and manipulating the game in my favor, as I have no doubt Olidammara is pouring all his foresight into it as well (I might not be able to defeat Portfolio Sense but I can match it).

If I were any kind of caster, of course, I'd have done a lot of research beforehand maybe giving me a tip of what to do to win. If I can't read the cards no matter what I do, I'd use someone who can. My deity if nothing less will do.


If I were a Rogue; detailed before. A Rogue would want an indirect solution here. Though distracting a God is a risky proposition, if I pull a heist or a con worthy of Olidammara himself I might just get it done.

Any Rogue-style caster (Cleric of Olidammara!) would also go for the same, just with different tools. Trick the God of Trickery is the game here. There needs to be a complex, deep plan that covers the relatively simple true plan underneath, preferably complete with a mindwipe to make all players forget about the plan (only remember it by signs as it comes into fruition based on the complex cover plan, so as to deny Olidammara knowledge of it; though again, you might have to contend with Portfolio Sense), done in a plane where Divination is a prohibited school (hell, probably Sigil; Gods have no place there so you can enjoy relative privacy).


If I were a Fighter...well, I'd cry and moan and go play another game since I have no place here. Unless I have a magic item appropriate for the job at hands. Seriously, if I were a Fighter I'd probably just metagame myself a part in solving the puzzle or become an errand boy for the Rogue.

Might want to give any Fighter-types some magic items appropriate for the job here since otherwise they'll be reduced to rolling ability checks and Knowledges with their probably-not-amazing stats.

[Telok]

Keep it simple.

Use an epic Sleight of Hand roll to swap the cards for a Deck of Many Things and let the dealer deal. If the dealer doesn't want to deal cards than he's forfeiting the game.

[J-H]

Psions have some relevant time-rewinding powers to help re-do any flubbed rolls or plans.

[Slipperychicken]

Tell him to stop f***ing with you and fork over the McGuffin. If that fails, do what you do best: Kill, disable, or bypass the bad guy, and take the McGuffin. Maybe you need a quest or two beforehand to gain a favor from Olidamarra's powerful foes to make it easier.

Now that wasn't so hard, was it?

[Zanthy1]

So RAW is they win if the get the MacGuffin, and they only lose if they TPK? Sounds like they can play the game as long as needed to win or steal the MacGuffin.


1) If it's pitch black;
They can't tell the cards are blank
They can't see him smiling
The cards likely have some other identification mark besides a visual one (Aura, Texture, Color, Smell)
Darkvision will be helpful, so will True Sight

2)Infinite Stakes, do you mean its a one round all in or they keep betting till they have nothing left resulting in multiple rounds? If they have multiple rounds then basically just memorize the rules by what he calls a win or loss and try to win on the final round. Kinda like calvin ball.

3)Obscure Variant? Knowledge check.

4) If you can make him deal a deck of many things make sure to ask him how many cards you each get and how many that is total to trigger the deck properly :P

I like the first part about just buying time and stealing the MacGuffin. Call it game.

Also, I love the reference to Calvin Ball!

[shaddy_24]

Tell him to stop f***ing with you and fork over the McGuffin. If that fails, do what you do best: Kill, disable, or bypass the bad guy, and take the McGuffin. Maybe you need a quest or two beforehand to gain a favor from Olidamarra's powerful foes to make it easier.

Now that wasn't so hard, was it?

I think that killing a god is probably more difficult than working out the game he's trying to play. If nothing else. Olidammara tends to appreciate a good con or trick, even played against him. You may not always enjoy the final result, but you've probably got a better chance of survival than just trying to kill him.

[Slipperychicken]

I think that killing a god is probably more difficult than working out the game he's trying to play. If nothing else. Olidammara tends to appreciate a good con or trick, even played against him. You may not always enjoy the final result, but you've probably got a better chance of survival than just trying to kill him.

The god of trollface is holding the McGuffin hostage, and declaring a game which amounts to "heads I win, tails you lose". The adventurers don't have time for his nonsense, and would have better odds getting someone powerful to help recover it. If the McGuffin is actually important, they can most likely find another god willing to help out.

[prufock]

In a game sense, I would have all party members acquire and optimize Leadership. Get as many followers as possible, and make sure they are included in the game.

Every round, someone goes all in. Everyone else in the party folds. Olidammara's move. He either folds or calls. If you have enough followers, you should, after a time, hit upon a great hand that Oli will call. And he HAS to call some of them, or he'll lose his stake to ante/blinds. Statistically, if you have enough followers, one of them will win.

Of course this is assuming that all variants of poker, even the obscure ones, have a similar betting structure, and that you're playing no limit.

[jindra34]

The god of trollface is holding the McGuffin hostage, and declaring a game which amounts to "heads I win, tails you lose". The adventurers don't have time for his nonsense, and would have better odds getting someone powerful to help recover it. If the McGuffin is actually important, they can most likely find another god willing to help out.

Yeah first step should definitely be to get an impartial (and different) other god to act as dealer/hand caller. Simply so that there can be some semblance of 'fairness'

[Flickerdart]

In a game sense, I would have all party members acquire and optimize Leadership. Get as many followers as possible, and make sure they are included in the game.

Every round, someone goes all in. Everyone else in the party folds. Olidammara's move. He either folds or calls. If you have enough followers, you should, after a time, hit upon a great hand that Oli will call. And he HAS to call some of them, or he'll lose his stake to ante/blinds. Statistically, if you have enough followers, one of them will win.

Of course this is assuming that all variants of poker, even the obscure ones, have a similar betting structure, and that you're playing no limit.
Considering that every time you lose, you need to win at least as many times, that won't work. When your follower goes all in, Oli only needs to put that much money down, not all that he's got.

[genericwit]

Time Stop + Quickened Read Magic [or something to read the cards] + gem of true seeing or whatever + telepathy so that you can run around the room, read the cards every hand, and tell all party members what everyone has. Obviously, this trick would only work as many times as the party wizard can cast time stop, but even without knowledge of the rules [which could perhaps be surmised through some sort of knowledge check--maybe with the feat Research?]. It could be used for really high stakes hands or something.

That'd be my first attempt, but I'm not super creative.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Have him temporarily renounce his powers to make it fair then kill him? If you're not allowed to kill him of he renounces his power you can mindrape him to learn the rules. Although I'm not sure about the renouncing power having him without divine ranks lowers his saves I believe.

[rweird]

For one thing, Olidamarra for all intents and purposes has infinite wealth, he has Time Stop at-will, and Alter Reality to duplicate Wish/True Creation for whatever he wants. He will keep on reaching into his pocket and pull money out.

For another thing, Olidamarra can see what everyone's hand is, in fact, he can see everything within miles of him. He'll know exactly what everyone's hand is, and for that matter, the order of the deck, i suppose he could not use that ability though for the duration. For that matter, he also can read minds, has sense motive ~70, and bluff ~70 (probably higher), both of which can be increased by at least 30 if he has the mind.

As a PC, i think i might summon something (anything w/ greater teleport SLA) to steal the artifact while i get someone else to take Olidamarra up on his crazy deal, and then walk away.

[Kerilstrasz]

"...an obscure variant of poker, in a pitch-black room with blank cards, for infinite stakes, against a dealer who never tells you the rules but who smiles all the time"

Variant of poker... so.. the player for his first hand/bet, player bets low.. and
keeps bet low in upcoming hands until he,at some point, understands the rules..
then he keeps playing and at his best hand(i ll Xplain later) he bets for that thing
he wants plus all the other he lost till now as an "all-in" bet.


...and while Olidamarra can see what's printed on the blank cards, he can't see what's in the players' hands.

Since "Olidamarra can see what's printed", the cards just appeared to be blank...
true sight my be helpful here...
so now the player can see his cards & knows (by trial & error) the rules...
now how he knows how he has the best hand and he can go all-inn...
it's a card game.. so either both players draw cards, either they just appear
on their hands, they dont know what they have until they see em...
read thoughts???? no need to "read" his strategy or anything... just those
symbols or numbers he things at the moment he reads his cards... like: "Oh..
a 9 and a Ace"...

as for the pitch black room... a candle maybe? :P

[Grollub]

Have him temporarily renounce his powers to make it fair then kill him? If you're not allowed to kill him of he renounces his power you can mindrape him to learn the rules. Although I'm not sure about the renouncing power having him without divine ranks lowers his saves I believe.

+1 for this... get him to renounce his powers "so its a fair game", when he does kill him.

If he doesn't.. tell him his game is bogus, and you have a better game to play.. then make up some game you can win ( aka Bill and Ted when they play Death ) ( maybe battleship or twister ?? lol )

[Gildedragon]

Interesting premise, odd to the mind in a few ways, mostly because you have several oxymorons stemming from the adherence to a particular definition.

So far you've only set one restriction on Armadillo's power:
Can't see what's in the players' hands

Here is where the players have a chance to actually do something

They can sleight of hand a whole bunch of cards into their hand, boosting their chance to beat the god. Or reach out and grab his cards with one hand and yourself with the other, render these things invisible. Grab the McGuffin and run or cheat to win one hand for the item, and when the deity can't pay up...

As to oxymorons:
The game, while impossible, is fair: Oxymoron, if impossible it can't be fair. Honest is more the word you're looking for, if you're saying that you wont cheat.
If the cards are blank they are not printed upon, if they ARE somehow differentiated, then divining a way to see their nature should be possible, somehow.

[Gotterdammerung]

Pazuzu....Pazuzu...Pazuzu.

[Baroncognito]

It really depends on the character. Meridash would probably insist that, in fact, he did know the rules and start playing Scum (as a drinking game). He'd insist that everyone must remove the little man from the edge of the glass before taking a sip and then put him back afterwards.

He would quite possibly die spectacularly.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Alright, he has to fail a save eventually so mindrape him until he fails to gain all his knowledge (if he has spell resistance you may be screwed, unless several people are capable of using supernatural spell).

[rweird]

Alright, he has to fail a save eventually so mindrape him until he fails to gain all his knowledge (if he has spell resistance you may be screwed, unless several people are capable of using supernatural spell).

As a god he's immune to Mind-Effecting Effects, doesn't fail saves on a natural 1, and wouldn't sit there while you try. He might do the same to you (he has Alter Reality, so he has any spell of 9th level or lower at-will, CL 20). That plan wouldn't really work.

[Seer_of_Heart]

As a god he's immune to Mind-Effecting Effects, doesn't fail saves on a natural 1, and wouldn't sit there while you try. He might do the same to you (he has Alter Reality, so he has any spell of 9th level or lower at-will, CL 20). That plan wouldn't really work.

Shoot, I forgot gods don't fail on a natural 1. Hmm Ice assassin? The assassin should know what he does I believe and if he doesn't you can become a better god than he is with it gaining NI divine ranks.

[Kornaki]

Is "can't see what's in the players' hands" going to be enforced RAW or RAI? Because if they just picked up the McGuffin it would be in their hands, and he then would be unable to see it (and therefore not know they took it?) Or some other trick based on this loophole.

It would be pretty sweet for the party if he used some sort of power to render himself unable to see "what is in the party's hands" and they figured out that his wording is too ambiguous. You shouldn't count on them doing that though if you do make it an option

[Toy Killer]

First off, I love this concept.

Secondly, how do you plan on playing this game with the players? Are you going to dish out index cards while he tells them they fail?

You've got a classic nigh impossible situation here, but that doesn't mean they should fail automatically. Let the aspect of Oli deal out the hands and immediately fold after all the players look at their hands. This tells the players that, although they don't necessarily know they can win, it is possible within the confines of the game.

I almost would suggest a slight alteration of the game at hand. Let the players decide how many times he shuffles the deck, and the deck automatically collects itself back in order again. Or, He knows what cards the players have, but only when they know, so a player could (hypothetically) let the cards be dealt to him, and not look at them and make Oli gamble with them.

If you just hand the players a game of 'Oops, you suck' with no control on their behalf, they will get frustrated and you might as well note the rocks above them are getting wobbly.

[Qwertystop]

Make it one of those puzzle-trick-things where the cards actually have nothing to do with it and it's actually something in the phrasing of how you say that you'll call or fold or whatever.

[NichG]

This is really a tricky encounter to have work out well. You need players who are lateral enough they won't either get frustrated or give up trying to resolve the situation by being crafty and just open up with a lot of force (and then you run the risk of them getting pissy when stuff doesn't work out due to deific immunities, precog, alter reality, etc, etc). You don't want a situation where Olidammara is basically forced to either roll over because in the metagame you don't want to TPK the party for escalating, or for him to just TPK the party because they're basically saying 'hey you know what would be fair, if you kill yourself for us!' (though really in this situation I'd say Oli would just leave after the first 'rude' action, since he has no reason aside from his own amusement to gamble over the thing or put it at risk at all).

The forum response so far has been something like 30% 'use the usual magic tricks to kill Oli/force his hand' (even if many of the suggested attacks wouldn't work due to deific immunities), 50% 'use the usual information-gathering magic tricks to actually play the card game legit', and 20% 'do something else'. That first 30% is basically the chance your game derails, which is a pretty large risk, and it gets worse if some of the usual information-gathering tricks start failing.

[rweird]

Shoot, I forgot gods don't fail on a natural 1. Hmm Ice assassin? The assassin should know what he does I believe and if he doesn't you can become a better god than he is with it gaining NI divine ranks.

You'd need a piece of him, and i don't think a sane DM should allow it.

I agree with Qwertystop about making the cards irrelevant if you want to give the players a chance.

[Slipperychicken]

He's a god of chaos, so following his ideals, one would reject these quite arbitrary and restrictive rules. Perhaps the real way to win is to tell Oli to shove off, clock him in the face, and burn the cards.

[sabelo2000]

Thanks for all the suggestions, like I said I'm leaving it completely open-ended to my players how they go about this. To clarify some points:

The game is "impossible" because as it's presented, the players are completely (and literally) in the dark. They don't know the rules, they don't know what's on their cards.

The game is "fair" because, although the players don't know the rules, the rules do EXIST. Further, although the cards are "blank" I will interpret that to mean that they are obscured or the text is invisible. So while we assume Olidamarra can read what's on his own cards, he will also honor the terms of his challenge and not peek at what CARDS the players have in their hands. I will also go ahead and declare that Olidamarra will honor at least the LETTER of his agreement, so that the challenge can proceed as a game of chance, and not a contrived situation of "I'm a god, you lose."

I haven't decided the details yet, but there will be some sort of currency involved as betting stake. The MacGuffin will NOT be placed directly in the pot. If the players exhaust Olidamarra's stake, they walk out with the MacGuffin. If he exhausts the players' stake, it's Game Over somehow. Maybe they're bound to serve him for a thousand years or something, or he enshrines them as brass trophies on his mantlepiece.

[Toy Killer]

I haven't decided the details yet, but there will be some sort of currency involved as betting stake. The MacGuffin will NOT be placed directly in the pot.

Out of curiosity, why not?

Very climatic for the players to finalize the victory, expect to continue on through and Oli says he still has one more hand to play.... and from his cloak he pulls out the McGuffin.

Perfect time for him to literally tip the tables to his favor.

[rweird]

Thanks for all the suggestions, like I said I'm leaving it completely open-ended to my players how they go about this. To clarify some points:

The game is "impossible" because as it's presented, the players are completely (and literally) in the dark. They don't know the rules, they don't know what's on their cards.

The game is "fair" because, although the players don't know the rules, the rules do EXIST. Further, although the cards are "blank" I will interpret that to mean that they are obscured or the text is invisible. So while we assume Olidamarra can read what's on his own cards, he will also honor the terms of his challenge and not peek at what CARDS the players have in their hands. I will also go ahead and declare that Olidamarra will honor at least the LETTER of his agreement, so that the challenge can proceed as a game of chance, and not a contrived situation of "I'm a god, you lose."

I haven't decided the details yet, but there will be some sort of currency involved as betting stake. The MacGuffin will NOT be placed directly in the pot. If the players exhaust Olidamarra's stake, they walk out with the MacGuffin. If he exhausts the players' stake, it's Game Over somehow. Maybe they're bound to serve him for a thousand years or something, or he enshrines them as brass trophies on his mantlepiece.

You can't get him to exhaust his stake, he has Alter Reality, he can get more wealth whenever he wants. That would make it impossible for the PCs to get the MacGuffin unless there is some limit to how much he will spend.

[Story]

You'd need a piece of him, and i don't think a sane DM should allow it.


Fortunately, Eschew Material Components bypasses that pesky restriction.

[rweird]

Fortunately, Eschew Material Components bypasses that pesky restriction.

Even the restriction of 'the DM allowing it'?

[Kornaki]

Fortunately, Eschew Material Components bypasses that pesky restriction.

As you cast your spell Olimarra appears and says "i will pay 1 gold and 1 copper for any pieces of me you may have" and your spell fizzles

[TuggyNE]

As you cast your spell Olimarra appears and says "i will pay 1 gold and 1 copper for any pieces of me you may have" and your spell fizzles

If that actually worked, you could use the same principle to shut down a lot of other spells, like fireball or spider climb or haste or displacement or antimagic field or protection from evil. What's more, you could do it all at once, as a free action, and with no save; just say "I'll give you 2gp for any material spell component you have" and bam, a bunch of spells are unavailable.

... please don't counter RAW abuse with more RAW abuse, however funny it may be; common sense is the proper corrective. :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

The game is "fair"


You have a very curious definition of the word "fair". Here's a little allegory.

Suppose a law-enforcement authority places someone (bonus points if he's a member of a disenfranchised minority) on trial for death-penalty crimes which he is never told about, with neither legal representation nor access to legal documentation, evidence, or advice of any sort, the trial is conducted in a language he doesn't speak, and is judged by the prosecutor. Is that a "fair" trial? You could say it is because the rules and regulations do exist, but you'd of course be completely full of it because that's not the sole requirement for fairness. Although our hypothetical defendant could possibly utter the correct series of sounds which would prove his innocence and render the prosecutor/judge so awed by the defense that he lets the defendant off, that's about as likely as the entire courtroom spontaneously combusting just before they declare him guilty.

[Zale]

Think like him.

He's probably doing this out of amusement. Beating you at this game would be a hilarious joke from his perspective.

Therefore, make it funnier for you to win than for you to loose.

Failing that, deliberately sabotage your own attempts in hopes of getting your chances of winning down to a million-to-one.

[Baroncognito]

Failing that, deliberately sabotage your own attempts in hopes of getting your chances of winning up to a million-to-one.

Fixed that for you.

[Duboris]

Umm. I had a bit of a thought, but I think a bit different.

What happens if the cards are all blank because there's nothing to actually worry about, the dealer is smiling because he's in on the joke, and the reason olidamarra can't see your hand is because there's really no reason to?

[Qwertystop]

Umm. I had a bit of a thought, but I think a bit different.

What happens if the cards are all blank because there's nothing to actually worry about, the dealer is smiling because he's in on the joke, and the reason olidamarra can't see your hand is because there's really no reason to?

So, what I said about how it's actually based on something like "If you say "I call", your hand is better than that of the person who just says "call"", or something like that?

Am I the only person who's been pranked by word-puzzles like this?

[sabelo2000]

Hmm, I had intended to play it straight, but the whole hidden-word-puzzle idea has me thinking now. Maybe I'll take the whole scenario laterally.

[Baroncognito]

Hmm, I had intended to play it straight, but the whole hidden-word-puzzle idea has me thinking now. Maybe I'll take the whole scenario laterally.

If you're going to do something that involves word counts, have some sentences prepared with the number of words in them. Nothing gives away a hidden word puzzle faster than the person in on the game counting to him/herself.

[Killer Angel]

To do so, I'd have to make the card game as well as the con as ridiculous as possible so that Olidammara wants to let the con progress, if only to see what is going to happen next.

If I do it right, Olidammara should see it coming from a mile away (or 20 weeks or whatever the domain future-telling gives him), but despite that should let it proceed up until the point where its too late because its just too awesome to stop.

I would try a variant of this.


Olidamara is also the patron of bards and rogues and thieves, so refuge might be found in audacity.

I would go for the bardic side... given that I'm currently play a bard.
A bard with sky high skill performance, that sings a ballad on this epic match while they're playing... he must sing with enough skill and inventive to actually entertain Olidammara.
I will sing about the impossible odds against the heroes, will praise the smiling God, will tell the story about the game... determining the outcome. While they're playing I will sing about the initial losses, then I will sing about a turn of mere luck for the hopless mortal players (and Olidammara will let it pass, 'cause he'll be curious to see where I'm going)... I'll sing, mixing doubts about what is really happening. How is it possible that such luck favors the mortals? What's the mystery behind the God's smile?
“...and in the final round, when the blank card showed the victory point, the mortals knew the God tricked them, once again. 'Cause he was smilin', and smilin', and smilin'... And all that remains, of the heroes's burning pyre of pride, was a warm ember of doubt…”

The song becomes the truth… and Olidammara will let it happen, because the song, now, gives him some mysterious power over the group’s destiny.

[Pandoras Folly]

I would definetly pull a Calvin ball and yell "boomerang zone card" as I licked it and stuck it to my forhead. Then break out the chess pieces, dice, shoots and ladders board, and croquet set. Use this as a distraction while the thief steals the mcguffan and the bard followskiller angels suggestion.

[prufock]

Considering that every time you lose, you need to win at least as many times, that won't work. When your follower goes all in, Oli only needs to put that much money down, not all that he's got.

True, it's certainly not a sure bet; the goal is to tilt the odds in your favour by having as many options as you possibly can. I was trying to find the best solution if I were in this situation. As in, no spells, not likely to kill him, etc. In other words, win the game - unfair though it is - through strategy.

I'm wondering if a better strategy would be for EVERYONE to go all in on the first hand. If he calls, odds are SOMEONE will have a better hand than him. If he folds, he loses his ante, and one player now has the combined starting stack of all his allies.

It will depend largely on how Oli plays, really. If he recognizes your strategy right off, he's likely to play very tight and wait til he has spectacular hands, in which case you're done.

Either way it's still a losing strategy, in the long run, but in the short run it might give you the edge you need.

Alternatively, use one or all of these (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=809#comic) three (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1119#comic) strategies (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=883#comic).

[Eldariel]

You can't get him to exhaust his stake, he has Alter Reality, he can get more wealth whenever he wants. That would make it impossible for the PCs to get the MacGuffin unless there is some limit to how much he will spend.

If it's game currency á la modern Poker and thus under the game's rules this wouldn't be a problem tho since he cannot cheat and generating wealth would count as cheating.

[sabelo2000]

Thanks everybody, I appreciate the feedback. Looks like I'll need to explore some lateral-thinking puzzles, and bear in mind a way to get the PCs to keep it in their scabbards during the contest.