Make a super-protected 20th level wizard

[Yora]

I think all discussions about wizards being undefeatable start entirely the wrong way round by beginning with an attack and then countering it with a defense after the attack has been stated. Which isn't at all how it works in practice.

Assuming a human wizard of 20th level with 191.000 XP, point buy 28, and wealth by level. If you craft things yourself, XP costs have to be taken into account. How would optimizers build him to be protected against everything and what would he do at the beginning of the day to put all his defenses in place?

You can go either every source allowed, or wizard 20 with Core Rules only.

[ArcturusV]

Just a random aside, I would frame up the challenge as "enough XP to BE 20th level gained over his career".

Reason why? Use of Permanency, Create magic items, spell use with XP costs, etc. As logically in the classic "The players decide to throw down with one another" Scenario the level 20th Rogue WOULD be level 20th. And the Wizard would be level 20th minus all the XP he has ever spent scribing scrolls, making potions, wands, wonderous items, use of spells like Wish, etc.


I don't have anywhere near all the books relevant to this challenge to post up a build. Nor am I as innately familiar with the endless list of spells to hazard a guess, so I won't try. I mean I could. But my answers wouldn't be anywhere near as authoritative as someone much more experienced in Wizard Fu would be.

[JeminiZero]

Well, if you're going FULL wizard, he would likely be using a nightmare simulacrum to Astral Project from his heavily defended time accelerated demiplane. That kinda thing pretty much renders 99.99% of attacks non-lethal.

[Morph Bark]

Just Wizard or Wizard + PrCs?

Because I like Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Master Specialist 10/Abjurant Champion 4 or somesuch. It's not that bad compared to Wizard 10/Incantatrix 10.

[Aharon]

A starting point may be the main arcane caster in Douglas' Team Solar (found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138)).

There was also a looong thread on BG, I'll see if I can dig up a google cache link.

[Yora]

You can build whatever you want, but staying core only has the advantage that everyone knows what exactly you are talking about.

Well, if you're going FULL wizard, he would likely be using a nightmare simulacrum to Astral Project from his heavily defended time accelerated demiplane. That kinda thing pretty much renders 99.99% of attacks non-lethal.
Since he would have to always travel in the company of the nightmare and both of them would show a strong necromancy spell aura to detect magic at all time, figuring out what's going on shouldn't be too difficult. 305 gp for a cleric to cast divination on your behalf and you could easily confirm that they are actually astral projections.
Cast dispel magic at either the projected nightmare or the wizard and the nightmare will have to start the 30 minutes casting process again. Cracking that DC 31 for the dispel check might be a bit difficult at lower levels, but when you're trying to fight a 20th level wizard, you should be able to afford a disjunction scroll for 4,000 gp. If you are a high level wizard yourself, just use a couple of castings of greater dispel magic.

There is also that interesting line that says that the caster of astral projection has to always stay with his companions and they will be stranded wherever they are if they are separated. However, the spell doesn't say anything about what that means. But one interpretation would be that killing or dispelling the nightmare simulacrum astral body would leave the wizard companion without a way back to his body.

However, that's just to get rid of that wizard in a hurry. Eventually, you want to get to his body and just kill that one. Alternatively, do a hit and run attack and destroy the simulacrum with its punny 6 HD. It takes 12 hours to make a new one, which is more than enough time to regain spells for the main assault on the wizard himself. Which he won't do, since he has prepare for the next attack himself.

Now finding the body and reaching it might be another obstacle to overcome, but how that one would be protected hasn't been stated yet.

[Aharon]

Found the builds, I'll copy those that were most discussed:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:15hXtqQjeqcJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Faction%3Dprintpage%3Btopic%3D3763.0+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=de

The Build:

Grey Elf Wizard 20

Specialist Diviner, Banning Enchantment
Spontaneous Diviner
Humming Bird, then Imp Familiar

Feats

1st level : Spell Mastery
Wizard 1 : Scribe Scroll
3rd level : Improved Initiative
6th level : Insightful Divination
9th level : Uncanny Forethought
12th level: Improved Familiar (Imp)
15th level: Quicken Spell
18th level: Quick Recovery


Spells prepared

The standard spells prepared:
1: Nerveskitter
2: Invisibility, Glitterdust
3: Wind Wall
4: Celerity x2, Greater Invisibility, Ray Deflection, Stone Skin
5: Overland Flight
6: Energy Immunity x 4, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Anticipate Teleport
7: Greater Teleport x2, Plane Shift, Limited Wish, Iron Guard
8: Superior Invisibility, Mindblank, Protection from Spells
9: Timestop, Gate, Mordekain's Disjunction, Shapechange

Divinations used frequently:
1: Truestrike
2: Detect Thoughts
3: Tounges, Clairavoyance
4: Detect Scrying
5: Prying Eyes
6: True Seeing
7: Greater Scry
8: Moment of Prescience
9: Foresight

Once a week: Contact other plane


Special items

I'm not going to use any wealth exploits, our Wizard starts with the same wealth by level as any one else.

Iron Cone with Shrink Item to make it a Hat
(8 tons without Shrink Item, made with Wall of Iron)
+5 Tome of Intelligence 137,500
+1 Weapon with Eager, Warning and Initiative 28,000
Rainbow falls magical location 2,000
Orange Ioun Stone 30,000
Hand of Glory 8,000
Ring of Arcane Might 20,000
Ring of Nine Lives 45,000
Ring of Greater Counterspells 16,000
with Mordenkainen's disjunction
Cloak of Resistance +5 with 43,000
Mantle of Second Chances
Belt of Constitution +6 with 54,000
Belt of Battle
Bracers of Armour +8 64,000
Mithral Buckler +1 of Soulfire, Heavy Fort 100,000
Headband of Intellect +6 36,000
Gloves of Dexterity +4 and Strength +2 22,000
Greater Metamagic Rod of Sculpting 24,500
Greater Metamagic Rod of Silence 24,500
Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend 24,500
Rod of Absorption 50,000
Boccob's Blessed Book x2 25,000
Handy Haversack 2,000

Running Total 756,000



The Scenario:

Our Wizard will occasionally leave his demi-plane for some human(oid) interaction. He travels to a pub in his old home town to relive his halcyon days with his adventuring companions. Do to his respect for the proprietor he doesn't use magic in the pub (unless in self defense), he'll travel 100 feet away then gate home. He'll stay a few hours, have a few drinks and leave but he never gets drunk. The pub is in a generic city, he usually arrives a bit before sunset and leaves at last call.

The Bad News:
The Wizard has cast Contact other plane and knows an attack is coming.
The Wizard has all his buffs up, but travels in his true form.
The Wizard has traded spells with other high level Wizards, he is considered to know every Wizard spell in the PHB. He also knows every divination spell in the SpC and all the completes. He also has Uncanny Forethought, which he can use 13 times in a day and spontaneous divination.

The Good News:
The Wizard doesn't know the exact nature of the threat assailing him.

His stats are (25pb):
STR: 8 (8 -2 elf +2 item)
DEX: 14 (8+2 elf +4 item)
CON: 18 (14-2 elf + 6 item)
INT: 36 (18 +2 elf +5 tome +5 levels + 6 item)
WIS: 8
CHA: 11

FRT:+18 (+4 +6 class +8 resistance)
REF:+16 (+2 +6 class +8 resistance)
WIL:+18 (-1 +12 class +8 resistance)


HP: 132

Spells Cast

Shapechange (extended, Rainbow Falls), Foresight (extended), Moment of Prescience, Protection from Spells, Plane Shift + Greater Teleport, Detect Scrying, Greater Anticipate Teleport, Energy Immunity for all energy types, Overland Flight

Spell slots available:
1: 8+1
2: 8+1
3: 7+1
4: 7+1 1 used, 7 remaining
5: 7+1 1 used, 6+1 remaining
6: 7+1 5 used, 2+1 remaining
7: 6+1 2 used, 4+1 remaining
8: 6+1 2 used, 5 remaining
9: 6+1 2 used, 5 remaining

The Wizard also has a Contingency on him self to planeshift back to his demiplane if he is unable to act. His familiar has a Contingency that planeshifts him back to his master's plane if his master's Contingency triggers.



Second, more paranoid build:
Grey elf diviner 20

Ability Scores (32 PB)
Str 6
Dex 20 (16+4enh) (6 pts)
Con 16 (12+4enh)(6 pts)
Int 36 (20+5level+5inh+6enh)(16 pts)
Wis 8
Cha 12 (4 pts)

Feat progression
1st level : Spell Mastery (retrain this every other level to include better spells)
Wizard 1 : Scribe Scroll
3rd level : Improved Initiative
5th: Spontaneous Divination (if it lets you cast spells from other class lists)
6th level : Insightful Divination
9th level : Uncanny Forethought
12th level: Improved Familiar (Pseudodragon or Imp, or anything else with Telepathy)
15th level: Quicken Spell
18th level: Quick Recovery


The mage maxes out his UMD ranks (cross class), and the pseudodragon wears a Circlet of Persuasion, a MW UMD tool, and a +6 Charisma item, giving it a +19 UMD check (11 ranks +3 cha +3 comp +2 circ).


Alternative build:

Grey elven diviner 10/Loremaster 10
Feats:
1st level : Spell Mastery (retrain this every other level to include better spells)
Wizard 1 : Scribe Scroll
3rd level : Skill Focus: Knowledge (Planes)
5th: Spontaneous Divination
6th level : Insightful Divination
9th level : Uncanny Forethought
10: Quicken Spell
12th level: Improved Familiar (Imp)
15th level: Item Familiar
18th level: Quick Recovery

Loremaster: Applicable Knowledge (Improved Initiative), max UMD ranks, other stuff

Items:


16000 lb steel cone with shrink item to make it a Hat (weighs 4 lbs shrunk, is 4 inches thick unshrunk, 120 points of damage to break through it, hardness 10)
Greater Metamagic rod of Extend 24500
Rainbow falls magical location (1xday triple duration of Transmutation spell) 2000
Ring of Arcane Might and Ring of Darkhidden 22000
Ring of Spellbattle and Nine Lives 57000
ring of greater counterspells (Mordenkainen's disjunction) 16000
hand of glory 8000
Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (500 gp, 1xday cast full round spell as a std action)
+1 heartening mithril buckler with Soulfire 27000
Greater MM Rod of Maximize 121500
Bag of Holding, Type 2, 5000
Wand of Dimension Door (10 charges, familiar carries this) 900
Circlet of Persuasion (on familiar) 4500
MW UMD tool (on familiar) 50
Cloak of Charisma +6 (on familiar) 36000
bracers of armor +1 with Heavy Fortification and Dexterity +4 52000
mantle of second chances 12000
belt of battle and constitution +4 28000
a +1 eager warning shuriken (320 gp, adds +7 to initiative)
Headband of Conscious Effort and Intellect +6 38000
rod of absorption 50000
Tiny staff containing Discern Location, and Shapechange (10 charges, familiar has this) 31950
Tome of Intellect +5 137500
Scrolls of Revenance and Revivify 2825
Blessed Book 12500
Scroll of Death Knell (uses one per day) 150
Karma Bead 10000
Thought Bottle 20000



756195 total spent, not including weapon, or onyx and other spell components.

The standard spells prepared:



(All day CL 22, and 27 for long duration buffs. The version with the demiplane has an all day CL of 32.)

1: Nerveskitter
2: Invisibility, Glitterdust, Craft Magic Tatoo (only needs to recast this occasionally for the +1 CL boost)
3: Wind Wall
4: Celerity x2, Greater Invisibility, Anticipate Teleportation
5: Overland Flight, Greater Blink
6: Energy Immunity x 2, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Anticipate Teleport, [Alternatives: Assay Resistance]
7: Forcecage, Limited Wish
8: Superior Invisibility, Mindblank
9: Timestop, Gate, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Shapechange

Divinations often prepared in specialist slots (can spontaneously cast any, though):
1: True Strike
2: Detect Thoughts
3: Clairvoyance
4: Detect Scrying
5: Prying Eyes
6: True Seeing
7: Greater Scrying
8: Moment of Prescience
9: Foresight

Once a week: He casts several Contact Other Plane spells, which will be used to determine what enemies he will face, and how to customize his prepared spells for the coming week to defeat them. Examples of the questions he asks:

1) What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.

Continue this line of questioning until no further threats are discovered.

Then ask things like "Other than the threats I've uncovered today using Contact Other Plane, are there any other defensive measures that will be critical to my survival this week?"
If answer is "yes", then "What is the most important of these defensive measures?" and "What day should I take this defensive measure on?" "At what time should I take this defensive measure?" (Repeat for 2nd most important defensive measure, and also for offensive measures)

I'm sure there are other equally useful questions that a 20th level mage with near deific intelligence could come up with...

Buffs: Permanent Arcane Sight and See Invisible. Shapechange (shared with familiar)(with Rainbow Falls and one use of his Metamagic Rod of Extend, this lasts more than 24 hrs), Moment of Prescience (shared with familiar), Contingency on wizard (if ever unable to act for any reason, Plane Shift to the Astral), Foresight (on familiar, as personal spell), Mindblank (on wizard), Contingency on familiar (if master's contingency is activated, Plane Shift to the Astral. Then familiar will find his master using its staff and take him to safety, if necessary.)


Wizard normally is in the form of a minotaur for the Cunning ability (a dire tortoise could work, too). He has a +4 Dex item and Nerveskitter, making his Initiative check +21 (or +46 if you add Foresight to this). He also has Celerity and isn't afraid to use it (thanks to Quick Recovery). The familiar has a wand of Dimension Door and can ready actions to teleport himself and the wizard away from threats, when needed. The pseudodragon has retrained its Altertness feat to Mindsight (or the mage paid for a Psychic Reformation, etc). By Shapechanging the pseudodragon into a Formian Queen, the familiar can have 50 mile "radar".

Against things that aren't really threats, he just lets his familiar Shapechange into something (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3689.0) and take care of them (often a beholder). He also uses shapechange to access Teleport (Archons) and Plane Shift (Beblith), and if he feels like it he can always be traveling around as an Astral Projection (Nightmare). Against things that actually seem threatening, here is one possible strategy:

Wizard casts Forcecage on enemy (and cohort, if any)(std action), then his familiar Shapechanges into a beholder (free action, Shapechange already going), and it aims its AMF eye on the enemy and cohort (free action). Then the wizard opens a Gate to a pool of lava 20+ feet above the Forcecage, pointing down (std action, but there's no rush at this point).

If things are really nasty looking, he can use Celerity to cast a Maximized (Greater Rod) Time Stop.

Another nasty trick is Disjunction (to get rid of any Mind Blank) followed by Limited Wish (Geas). It's basically a save-or-die, without the save.

At a minimum, he has a Clone hidden away.

The hidden lair is below the dirt floor of a small cave in the middle of nowhere, but the chamber itself has no entrances at all to the surface. Inside the sanctum, there is a Permanent Alarm spell on the area around the clone. The entire area also has Forbiddance and a permanent Private Sanctum cast inside it.

There is a small underground cubbyhole (fits 1 tiny creature) that acts as an entry chamber. It has no permanent connections to the surface, but it is possible to stab or dig a hole down to it from the cave floor above the hidden chamber, if you know where it is. A tiny or smaller creature could then enter the main chamber via a tiny lead door. The cubbyhole itself is not included in the Forbiddance or Private Sanctum effects.

There is an awakened red dragon zombie there as a guardian (haven't made stats up. It just stays there to guard the clone). About every month and a half, he returns there to cast an Extended Gentle Repose on the Clone via Limited Wish.


At worst, he uses Genesis to create his own custom plane of existence as a "lair", and never leaves it. He sends minions to do his dirty work, or his own Astral Projection. (Warning: Extreme brokenation ahead)

He hatched his familiar here, so it is a native of this plane. By casting a Planar Bubble on it, he can have all the benefits of home wherever he is. The plane has the Timeless trait, and creatures there do not need to eat, sleep, or breath and do not age. Time spent there does not reduce their lifespan, even if they later leave the demiplane.

The plane to automatically applies any metamagic feats he wants to his spells for free (precedent is the the auto-quicken of the Astral Plane, and the fact that he can set the traits of his demiplane). He could also have the limited magic trait applied to Abjuration, which would mean he never has to worry about being Dispelled or Disjoined again, but that would also prevent him from casting abjurations while inside his familiar's Planar Bubble, and is probably unnecessary. This means that he doesn't need any of the Metamagic Rods listed in the equipment section, saving him a ton of cash for other stuff.

Using a more liberal interpretation of the spell, he could manipulate the Time trait, so that (for example) 10 rounds pass for every 1 round that passes on the Material Plane (or 1 year for every round...).

The entire plane (all 180 feet of it) has the same protections as the lair described above. The Forbiddance was cast by the similacrum described below after the wizard and his familiar used Astral Projection to leave the plane. This is assumed to already have happened long ago by the time the contestant is trying to kill the wizard.

Instead of a zombie dragon, the mage has a similacrum of a 72 HD Elder Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm). The similacrum has 36 HD and casts as a 29th level cleric with the Magic and Knowledge domains. It knows three epic spells, and has the Epic Spellcasting, Ignore Material Components, and Craft Contingent Spell feats, as well as many extremely useful SLAs (like Astral Projection and Contact Other Plane, both 3xday). This similacrum can be contacted by the mage via Sending. If the mage ever decides to return from his astral travels, he can contact the similacrum and tell it to Dispel the Forbiddance (it cast it). Otherwise no one can ever enter or leave the demiplane, including the mage himself. The similacrum also has been commanded to use Revanance and/or Revivify if the mage or his familiar is ever killed (by having his silver cord severed, etc).

The mage boosted his caster level above 36 to Gate this elder titan by using Death Knell, the Magic Tattoo spell, his ring, the karma bead, and emulating Consumptive Field via Limited Wish (total CL 37). Against very tough targets, he may take an Astral Projection of the similacrum with him as well, leaving a Contingent Revivify on his body.

[JeminiZero]

There is also that interesting line that says that the caster of astral projection has to always stay with his companions and they will be stranded wherever they are if they are separated. However, the spell doesn't say anything about what that means. But one interpretation would be that killing or dispelling the nightmare simulacrum astral body would leave the wizard companion without a way back to his body.

More specifically, it means that the Wizard cannot voluntarily return to his body. I interpret "Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them" to mean that only the Astral Projector can dismiss the AP.

However, if the Wizard is slain when the Nightmare is not around, the AP should arguably still return him to his body.


Since he would have to always travel in the company of the nightmare

Just shove it into a Bag of Holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding) along with a Bottle of Air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bottleofAir) or a Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation). A Type 4 bag can hold 1,500 lb, well above the average weight of a 1,000 lb large horse.


Cast dispel magic at either the projected nightmare or the wizard

Nightmares (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm) cast AP as a supernatural ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), which is immune to Dispel and even Disjunction.

AMF might still suppress it, but for that the Wizard should have a Tin Foil hat (that is NOT Astral Projected) handy.


and the nightmare will have to start the 30 minutes casting process again.

Normally, "Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise".


both of them would show a strong necromancy spell aura to detect magic at all time, figuring out what's going on shouldn't be too difficult.

There is some (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187835) argument on whether Supernatural abilities are detectable by Detect Magic. But regardless, Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) should be able to block out a lowly level 0 Detect Magic.

[Yora]

The Wizard has cast Contact other plane and knows an attack is coming.
No, he does not. Unless he wants to risk a 15% of having his Intelligence being reduced to 8 and being unable to cast spells for the next five weeks every time he casts the spell, he only knows with 60% certainty.


He also knows every divination spell in the SpC and all the completes.
How do all these scrolls affect his wealth by level?

Assuming there are 10 spells of every level and he manages to copy the spell with 100% accuracy. That would already be 132.000 gp. I guess the actual number might be two to three times as high.

[Urpriest]

Wasn't this the whole point of Cindy? I feel like this was hashed out a long time ago.

[Yora]

Just shove it into a Bag of Holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding) along with a Bottle of Air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bottleofAir) or a Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation). A Type 4 bag can hold 1,500 lb, well above the average weight of a 1,000 lb large horse.
This one wouldn't work, as a bag of holding is an extradimensional place and the wizard needs to stay with the nightmare, which certainly means being on the same plane.

There is some (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187835) argument on whether Supernatural abilities are detectable by Detect Magic. But regardless, Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) should be able to block out a lowly level 0 Detect Magic.

You know what? **** this piece of **** of a horribly written game! :smallbiggrin:
Wizards aren't good. Spells are garbage!
I'm going to play Dragon Age or Myth & Magic.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jC-raxnLU-U/UAlMKT0n0vI/AAAAAAAABAo/zrQf6Q7Q-DU/s1600/Nothing+to+do+here.jpg

[Flickerdart]

I'm going to play Dragon Age
Aren't wizards in Dragon Age basically way better than rogues and fighters, too?

[Story]

No, he does not. Unless he wants to risk a 15% of having his Intelligence being reduced to 8 and being unable to cast spells for the next five weeks every time he casts the spell, he only knows with 60% certainty.

You can just take 10 on the int checks, so any Wizard worth their salt will autopass. And you can get around the failure chance (which is only 12%) by casting it multiple times.

[Hirax]

Wasn't this the whole point of Cindy? I feel like this was hashed out a long time ago.

Pretty much. And the Test of Spite. Though it's been years since both of those happened, so anyone that's arrived since then probably won't be convinced until Test of Spite round 2 happens. Hopefully the results are archived better, if and when that happens, so when threads like this pop up, it's easy to just point.

Edit:



Assuming there are 10 spells of every level and he manages to copy the spell with 100% accuracy. That would already be 132.000 gp. I guess the actual number might be two to three times as high.

I have no idea how you computed that insane 132k GP figure, no wizard is going to pay that. At high levels, with a blessed book, copying a spell from another spellbook only costs 50GP*spell level, per spell.

[Twilightwyrm]

You can just take 10 on the int checks, so any Wizard worth their salt will autopass. And you can get around the failure chance (which is only 12%) by casting it multiple times.

Not sure you can. I may be (and probably am) missing something, but last I checked a straight Int check doesn't necessarily qualify as a Skill check, meaning I'm fairly certain you cannot take 10.

[Hirax]

It's a spellcraft check, not an int check. The DC is 15 + spell level. A wizard with 4 ranks in spellcraft and an int of 14 can take 10 and hit that at level 1, and learn any level 1 spell in the game. It only gets easier from there, as by the time you'll want to learn 2nd level spells, the DC will only go up by 1, but your spellcraft will go up by 2, and so forth.

[Twilightwyrm]

It's a spellcraft check, not an int check. The DC is 15 + spell level. A wizard with 4 ranks in spellcraft and an int of 14 can take 10 and hit that at level 1, and learn any level 1 spell in the game. It only gets easier from there, as by the time you'll want to learn 2nd level spells, the DC will only go up by 1, but your spellcraft will go up by 2, and so forth.



1. You must succeed on an Intelligence check against this DC to avoid a decrease in Intelligence and Charisma. If the check fails, your Intelligence and Charisma scores each fall to 8 for the stated duration, and you become unable to cast arcane spells. If you lose Intelligence and Charisma, the effect strikes as soon as the first question is asked, and no answer is received.

So, what exactly is Spellcraft being used for?

[Chilingsworth]

Not sure you can. I may be (and probably am) missing something, but last I checked a straight Int check doesn't necessarily qualify as a Skill check, meaning I'm fairly certain you cannot take 10.

Not to mention, wrestling with outerplanar entities (theoretically) capable of reducing you to a gibbering moron would probably count as a "stressful situation," thus preventing taking 10.

That said, wizards are still effectively invincible at high levels. Heck, they could just plannar bind some imps and force them to use their commune ability on their behalf. That's assuming they don't have an imp familiar, of course.

[Hirax]

My bad, I was stuck in the same train of thought from copying spells. Regardless, hitting an int mod of 15 pre epic isn't hard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14456437). There's no provision for a 1 automatically failing, so once you can hit +15 you're guaranteed success. Also, the spell mechanus mind can grant you a +2 on all int based checks, if you int mod is only +13.

[Flickerdart]

DC16 Intelligence check? 12 from straight INT, and then the Adept Spirit spell can cover the rest with a moderate feat investment. Other options include mind controlling a Marshal, if you don't want to bother with the feats.

[Seer_of_Heart]

No, he does not. Unless he wants to risk a 15% of having his Intelligence being reduced to 8 and being unable to cast spells for the next five weeks every time he casts the spell, he only knows with 60% certainty.


Its 5% if you can get your save high enough, and considering all the ways you can get rerolls I'd consider it fair to assume a 0% chance if resources are spent on those.

[Hirax]

Its 5% if you can get your save high enough, and considering all the ways you can get rerolls I'd consider it fair to assume a 0% chance if resources are spent on those.

It isn't a save, it's an ability check. It does not automatically fail on a 1.

[Twilightwyrm]

My bad, I was stuck in the same train of thought from copying spells. Regardless, hitting an int mod of 15 pre epic isn't hard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14456437). There's no provision for a 1 automatically failing, so once you can hit +15 you're guaranteed success. Also, the spell mechanus mind can grant you a +2 on all int based checks, if you int mod is only +13.

I'll grant you this, but then I must ask...you're now wasting additional spells per day just to make sure you don't get reduced to a dribbling idiot every day, for a 88% chance of a true answer from a deity? Yeah you can try and verify with multiple castings, but you're going to want at least three, to verify the first two aren't random flukes. And even then, you are never entirely sure you are right anyways.


DC16 Intelligence check? 12 from straight INT, and then the Adept Spirit spell can cover the rest with a moderate feat investment. Other options include mind controlling a Marshal, if you don't want to bother with the feats.

A "moderate" feat investment? How many are we talking? Because you're not a fighter, you don't have all that many extra feats to screw around with.

[Hirax]

I'll grant you this, but then I must ask...you're now wasting additional spells per day just to make sure you don't get reduced to a dribbling idiot every day, for a 88% chance of a true answer from a deity? Yeah you can try and verify with multiple castings, but you're going to want at least three, to verify the first two aren't random flukes. And even then, you are never entirely sure you are right anyways.


Shapechange into an elemental weird, free at will contact other plane and legend lore, among other things. No slots expended, other than on shapechange, but that's a factory default practically.

edit: and persisted necrotic empowerment and visage of the deity do far more than help with contact other plane. A 24/7 int mod of 21 does wonderful things to your spells per day and save DCs.

[Flickerdart]

A "moderate" feat investment? How many are we talking? Because you're not a fighter, you don't have all that many extra feats to screw around with.
Well, you need one to cast Incarnum spells. And then you're done - the spell itself gives +2, +1 more for the point of essentia you got from the feat, and then 1 is the minimum number you can roll. As a 3rd level spell, it's not going to tax you much to cast it. If you are incapable of getting 34 Intelligence, then every Incarnum feat you take gives you at least another point of essentia. A lot of them, like Midnight Metamagic, are really useful for a spellcaster.

[Eldariel]

Actually, the check, even assuming the interpretation that doesn't allow taking 10 (RAW does kinda, not in PF tho), can be made automatically. You can get +13 Int (18 + 2 Racial/Age + 5 Levels + 5 Inherent + 6 Item), +1 Competence to checks from Ioun Stone and +1 Luck more from e.g. Stone of Good Luck. That's all within Core mind; much easier outside it. I do recall there's something else too and then there are spells but that's the easy way.

[Story]

Not sure you can. I may be (and probably am) missing something, but last I checked a straight Int check doesn't necessarily qualify as a Skill check, meaning I'm fairly certain you cannot take 10.

You can take 10 on ability checks too.



The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checks.

[Seer_of_Heart]

It isn't a save, it's an ability check. It does not automatically fail on a 1.

I feel silly, I saw DC and assumed it was a save :smallredface:. I have a suggestion, with 18 int +5 level up, +5 inherent +6 enhancement +4 untyped persisted greater visage of the deity half-fiend form that's a total of 38 int for a total of 14. So using a racial advantage of a grey elf for an extra +2, or using an illumian with the sigil that grants +2 to intelligence based checks you cut failure down to 0%.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Aren't wizards in Dragon Age basically way better than rogues and fighters, too?

Yes, but for the most part their linearly better.

No, flight.
No, Teleport.
I think no true mind rape.
Just, direct damage, aoe and cc better than what non casters can do and a templar(anti-mage cops) fighter can 1v1 his a similarly experienced wizard.
All the best world bending magic is from spirits/demons rather than wizards.

[Eldariel]

I feel silly, I saw DC and assumed it was a save :smallredface:. I have a suggestion, with 18 int +5 level up, +5 inherent +6 enhancement +4 untyped persisted greater visage of the deity half-fiend form that's a total of 38 int for a total of 14. So using a racial advantage of a grey elf for an extra +2, or using an illumian with the sigil that grants +2 to intelligence based checks you cut failure down to 0%.

Or just 36 Int + 1 Competence from Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone and +1 Luck from Luckstone like I posted few pages back; completely within Core for those who care and extremely simple.

[Slipperychicken]

Our rules don't say anything against free Wishes (through planar binding, Shapechange, or similar abilities). So our Wizard has infinite money, all the expensive material components his heart desires, and every effect he wants on him in the form of magic items.

An arbitrarily-large horde of Ice Assassins defends him. Copies of himself and any other creature he desires, they serve him (whether as a function of the spell itself, or through Mindrape). The original only loses 5,000xp because our original wizard created the first Ice Assassin, which created the second, which created the third, and so on. His infinite gold allows them to be created, then equipped as well as he is.

Here's Cindy (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=5890), the typical example of a powerful Wizard.

Inspired by the first part of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115), he should be able to get True Mind Switch'd with an Ice Assassin of an Aleax (BoED 158) of himself, then destroy his original body. That would get him Singular Enemy against himself, which makes him mostly immune to harm (no creature aside from his now-destroyed self can hinder him in any way). Also scores him at-will Shapechange and other goodies.

[Aharon]

The Aleax thing is a bit iffy because the section normally reserved for fluff contains information that interacts with the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12971940&postcount=164).

[JeminiZero]

This one wouldn't work, as a bag of holding is an extradimensional place and the wizard needs to stay with the nightmare, which certainly means being on the same plane.

I would argue that so long as the Wizard is touching the Nightmare, when the Nightmare chooses to dismiss AP, the wizard is brought along as well. It doesn't matter if they are physically seperated at some point. To this end, the Wizard has to order the Nightmare to ready action each round, the moment the Nightmare sees the Wizard place his hand into the BoH, to take his hand and dismiss AP.

If you don't buy that, the alternative is to remain in physical contact with the Nightmare at all times. Our wizard could leave a braid of hair hanging into the Bag of Holding, for the Nightmare to hold on to, thereby remaining in physical contact even across dimensions. Since the bag can be packed flat, the Wizard could stuff it under his robe to support the weight, and so that the bag isn't dangling and vulnerable out in the open.

To signal the Nightmare to dismiss AP, he could use some form of telepathy, or tie a ribbon around the braid, which the Nightmare can see. The Nightmare has orders to dismiss AP, when the ribbon changes colour. So all the wizard has to do is cast Prestidigitation (possibly quickened/stilled/silence) to change the ribbon's colour (which is tied around his hair, and is therefore in contact, even if located in extradimensional space).

[Slipperychicken]

The Aleax thing is a bit iffy because the section normally reserved for fluff contains information that interacts with the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12971940&postcount=164).

This is solid, rules-wise. The spell says you can make any creature, and the Aleax entry doesn't contradict that. Besides, the Ice Assassin is merely a near-perfect imitation of an Aleax. It isn't an actual Aleax, despite possessing all the skills, abilities, qualities, and such of an Aleax.
Excerpt from Ice Assassin


An ice assassin spell creates a living,
breathing creature that is a near-perfect
duplicate of an existing creature.
The duplicate is formed entirely out
of ice, but once the spell is in effect,
it appears as an exact duplicate to
all but its source, who always sees
the ice assassin as an animated ice
statue of himself. The ice assassin
possesses all the skills, abilities, and
memories possessed by the original,
but its personality is warped and
twisted by an all-consuming need to
slay the original. It also constantly
uses locate creature on its duplicate
at a caster level equal to your own. If
its quarry is outside the range of this
effect, the ice assassin must rely on
its own cleverness or advice from you
to track the original.

[Aharon]

The operative word being existing. Aleaxes don't exist unless a god wants them to. They are not like mind flayers or illithids or anything, of which the existence can always be assumed. If there is no actual aleax of you in the multiverse, you can't ice assassin it. If there is, congrats, it will come for you shortly.


An aleax does not exist until it is called into being by a deity.
The deity imbues the aleax with a fragment of his or her consciousness
before sending it to the location of its intended
victim. [...]A deity may have only one aleax at any given
time, and an aleax cannot be sent after more
than one creature. A deity cannot send a new
aleax to exact vengeance against a character who
has killed the deity’s aleax once before.

[Seer_of_Heart]

That's why you make yourself a god, or just use an ice assassin to make a god you have under your control make one.

[Aharon]

This wasn't included in Tippy's set up. But let's assume for the moment it was, how would you do that? Ice Assassin on Deity triggers portfolio sense. If the deity is played halfway competent, you're done.

[Flickerdart]

This wasn't included in Tippy's set up. But let's assume for the moment it was, how would you do that? Ice Assassin on Deity triggers portfolio sense. If the deity is played halfway competent, you're done.
So pick a crappy god. Most of 'em have rubbish builds.

[Aharon]

@Flickerdart
I posit that they don't. Even the oft-cited Imhotep, played intelligently, is quite a match if he's on the defense and can provide sufficient offense for the usual forum tactics when they're not thought through to the end.

But even assuming that he does succeed at controlling a god or becoming a god, there's still the time problem. The casting time of Ice Assassin is 8 hours. So the Aleax is created, and you then either have to cast for 8 hours, letting your minions protect you, or you try to catch it some way - given the fact that it has the same powers you do, that might prove to be rather hard.

[Kazyan]

I thought that at the sort of full-tilt TO where nabbing someone else's divine ranks is a thing, you use Dweomerkeeper to cast Ice Assassin quasi-trivially.

[Aharon]

That wasn't part of Tippy's trick, either, and I have forgotten several tricks because they aren't discussed every day. Care to elaborate?

[Kazyan]

I believe Tippy's trick was along the lines of 1) Shapechange into Zodar, 2) (Su) Wish up a scroll of Ice Assassin of <whatever>, 3) Shapechange into Lilitu and use it.

[Hirax]

I would argue that so long as the Wizard is touching the Nightmare, when the Nightmare chooses to dismiss AP, the wizard is brought along as well. It doesn't matter if they are physically seperated at some point. To this end, the Wizard has to order the Nightmare to ready action each round, the moment the Nightmare sees the Wizard place his hand into the BoH, to take his hand and dismiss AP.

If you don't buy that, the alternative is to remain in physical contact with the Nightmare at all times. Our wizard could leave a braid of hair hanging into the Bag of Holding, for the Nightmare to hold on to, thereby remaining in physical contact even across dimensions. Since the bag can be packed flat, the Wizard could stuff it under his robe to support the weight, and so that the bag isn't dangling and vulnerable out in the open.

To signal the Nightmare to dismiss AP, he could use some form of telepathy, or tie a ribbon around the braid, which the Nightmare can see. The Nightmare has orders to dismiss AP, when the ribbon changes colour. So all the wizard has to do is cast Prestidigitation (possibly quickened/stilled/silence) to change the ribbon's colour (which is tied around his hair, and is therefore in contact, even if located in extradimensional space).

Are you talking about binding a nightmare and having it take you with it? Just shapechange into a nightmare and go yourself, no binding necessary.

[Aharon]

To what purpose? It doesn't change the casting time, per Rules Compendium:


Originally Posted by Rules Compendium, pg. 85
Activating a scroll takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell stored on the scroll and provokes attacks of opportunity as spellcasting does.

[Kazyan]

It means that you can get the Ice-Aleax for the cost of one of the day's 9th-level spell slots, not, you know, resources. (I don't think he was worried about the casting time.) Tippy has said that, to paraphrase, if you give him a casting of CL 17 Shapechange on a level 1 commoner, he'll hand you back Pun-Pun minus Manipulate Form.

[JeminiZero]

Are you talking about binding a nightmare and having it take you with it? Just shapechange into a nightmare and go yourself, no binding necessary.

Nightmare Simulacrum actually, back on 1st page.

The problem with shapechanging into a Nightmare, is that if you shapechange into something else after that, it *might* arguably dismiss your Nightmare form's Astral Projection, which defeats the purpose.

[Flickerdart]

Nightmare Simulacrum actually, back on 1st page.

The problem with shapechanging into a Nightmare, is that if you shapechange into something else after that, it *might* arguably dismiss your Nightmare form's Astral Projection, which defeats the purpose.
Why would it dismiss the AP? Effects are not tied in any way to their casters' continuing ability to activate them.

[Story]

The operative word being existing. Aleaxes don't exist unless a god wants them to. They are not like mind flayers or illithids or anything, of which the existence can always be assumed. If there is no actual aleax of you in the multiverse, you can't ice assassin it. If there is, congrats, it will come for you shortly.

So then kill the Aleax. They still have weaknesses. Or just True Mind Switch it, and save a step.

[Aharon]

Neither works. Look at Tippy's trick again, it requires you to eat the brain of the aleax. It is a construct and only has a brain when it shapechanges into another form. You can command the Ice assassin to do that (should you succeed at creating one), but you can't command the original. True Mindswitch is mind-affecting, so it's also immune to that in its normal form. The middle step is neccessary.

ETA:
And you're missing the point. The point was that the DM decides wether an Aleax exists in the first place - unless you follow the route of trying to become or control a god first, which has its own problems (see above).

[JeminiZero]

Why would it dismiss the AP? Effects are not tied in any way to their casters' continuing ability to activate them.

But it is not cast as a spell. It is a racial supernatural ability that functions like the spell.

Basically, the rules are not entirely clear on whether the effect can persist. Some people rule yes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229279), while others say no (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?74543-Shapechange-Nightmares-and-Astral-Projection).

The important point is that it MIGHT not persist, in which case you need to find a reasonable work-around.

[Flickerdart]

But it is not cast as a spell. It is a racial supernatural ability that functions like the spell.
That's not relevant at all. A Nightmare is capable of using astral projection "just like the spell". Astral Projection does not expire because its caster only prepared one today and can't use any more, for instance. Your "no" link doesn't even contain an argument, so I'm not sure why you think it's evidence.

[Kazyan]

In TO, you're supposed to use the cheesiest interpretation anyway.