Bad idea to have 2 stealthy characters in one party?

[bendking]

So me and my friends are starting a new campaign, im going to be a Spiked Chain Shadow Hand Swordsage, and we will also have a rogue in the party who says he will too focus a bit on stealth.
Is this a bad idea? Will this make our team imbalanced and or ruin one of ours sneaky stabby moves?
Just looking for some opinions, or advice, thanks ahead.

[ArcturusV]

Well, you can look at it as if the more you have sneaking, the more likely you are to have someone blow a hide/move silently and tip off your targets. Or you can look at it as increasing the amount of first strike ambush damage and general ability to pick off scouts/loners since you're working together.

Typically I'd say no. Not a bad idea. Might be a bad idea at low level if you are doubling up on stealth but lacking something else key. But as long as you try to operate as a two man element it should work out wonderfully.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

I dont think it's bad idea, having more than one stealthly character will change how combat is done and changes how the story is told. There is no harm in trying it out and it may be fun.

[Volthawk]

Nah, I'd say multiple stealthy guys isn't bad. It means when you'd usually have one guy going around all sneaky-like, you have two, which has it's benefits - one can help the other if things go wrong, if they get into a fight there's flanking for SA and the like, and there's the capacity for Aid Another to help with any skill checks needed.

[Malroth]

It is however a bad idea to have a party of sneaky guys except 1 heavy armour melee guy. he'll almost never see combat and when he does he'll die because he'll be alone and ambushed while everybody else is of sneaking.

[bendking]

It is however a bad idea to have a party of sneaky guys except 1 heavy armour melee guy. he'll almost never see combat and when he does he'll die because he'll be alone and ambushed while everybody else is of sneaking.

Well, we are a party of 4:
Priest, Druid, Rogue, and Swordsage, so should we ask the DM to add an NPC barbarian or some sort of charger to play with us?

[crazyhedgewizrd]

The priest and druid can be sneakly if they want.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If the cleric and druid are played even moderately well, they've got your bases more than covered on head-breaking. You should be fine.

I'd honestly be more concerned about the two stealthy characters' players feeling like they're stepping on each other's toes than any mechanical concerns that might follow this decision.

[ArcturusV]

Course Kelb has the right of it there. Long as you both are cool doing the same thing, helping each other out, covering one another, no problems. It's if one of you gets the feeling that you're just second fiddle to the other is the issue.

So try to find situations where you can abuse the fact you have two sneaky guys working together more.

[nedz]

I've played in a party of all stealth characters — it works very well. Rather than actually having to fight some encounters we can all just sneak past them.

The trick to avoid the multiple roll issue is to have one guy out front, and the second 50' behind him, and so on. If someone runs into trouble, the rest are in a position to do something about it.

[bendking]

If the cleric and druid are played even moderately well, they've got your bases more than covered on head-breaking. You should be fine.

I'd honestly be more concerned about the two stealthy characters' players feeling like they're stepping on each other's toes than any mechanical concerns that might follow this decision.

Well, to be honest, the other guy isn't an amazing player, so I'll try to coordinate with him as much as possible, and plan tactics with him accordingly.

[bendking]

Any more suggestions?

[Menzath]

I have done some games with multiple stealth chars. what makes combat awesome (since you mentioned using a spiked chain) is improved trip and another feat that I can't seem to remember the name too(i'll look it up after work) you can go in trip a mob, get another free attack for tripping em, and your sneak attacking buddy can come in and stabby all he wants. great thing is being prone you are denied your dex bonus so you can stabby stabby from the front. As a side note standing or crawling provokes AOO's as well and are still denied dex. and being in meele you aree -4ac while prone. supper nice.

But yes as mentioned by another poster the great thing is to simple bypass groups to complete your objectives, or even just wait till they sleep and take all thier stuff and leave em.

[bendking]

I have done some games with multiple stealth chars. what makes combat awesome (since you mentioned using a spiked chain) is improved trip and another feat that I can't seem to remember the name too(i'll look it up after work) you can go in trip a mob, get another free attack for tripping em, and your sneak attacking buddy can come in and stabby all he wants. great thing is being prone you are denied your dex bonus so you can stabby stabby from the front. As a side note standing or crawling provokes AOO's as well and are still denied dex. and being in meele you aree -4ac while prone. supper nice.

But yes as mentioned by another poster the great thing is to simple bypass groups to complete your objectives, or even just wait till they sleep and take all thier stuff and leave em.

I like the sounds of this, but why would I get a free attack if I trip a mob?

[ArcturusV]

No clue. Though I seem to recall there was some Monk based feat that gave you a free attack (against a different target) if you knocked someone prone. But my memory is a little vague and I can't quite find it right now.

[shortround]

I have done some games with multiple stealth chars. what makes combat awesome (since you mentioned using a spiked chain) is improved trip and another feat that I can't seem to remember the name too(i'll look it up after work) you can go in trip a mob, get another free attack for tripping em, and your sneak attacking buddy can come in and stabby all he wants. great thing is being prone you are denied your dex bonus so you can stabby stabby from the front. As a side note standing or crawling provokes AOO's as well and are still denied dex. and being in meele you aree -4ac while prone. supper nice.

But yes as mentioned by another poster the great thing is to simple bypass groups to complete your objectives, or even just wait till they sleep and take all thier stuff and leave em.
I thought you still had dex while prone. Don't they just get +4 to hit for melee?

Edit: Improved trip gives you an extra attack after tripping a foe as if you hadn't used your attack to trip that foe. Monks get it for free at 6.

[bendking]

I thought you still had dex while prone. Don't they just get +4 to hit for melee?

Edit: Improved trip gives you an extra attack after tripping a foe as if you hadn't used your attack to trip that foe. Monks get it for free at 6.

Cool, I guess i'll take it because im using Spiked Chain.

[Eldariel]

The more stealthy the party, the more options you have. If the whole party is stealthy, you can initiate engagements at your terms and simply have more options how to go about everything as a group; indeed, the more stealthy people you have the more powerful stealth gets. Casters always have their Invisibilities and Silences to help themselves.

[jhardin87]

Edit: Improved trip gives you an extra attack after tripping a foe as if you hadn't used your attack to trip that foe. Monks get it for free at 6.
Its actually greater trip that provokes the AoO. Improved trip just gives you bonus to trip attempts and keeps you from provoking an AoO on yourself.

[bendking]

Its actually greater trip that provokes the AoO. Improved trip just gives you bonus to trip attempts and keeps you from provoking an AoO on yourself.

Actualy, Imprvoed Trip is both (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/improved-trip--1587/).

[jhardin87]

Actualy, Imprvoed Trip is both (http://dndtools.eu/f.eats/players-handbook-v35--6/improved-trip--1587/).

My bad. I've been playing too much pathfinder lol. I apologise

[jhardin87]

If you're running improved trip with a spiked chain you might try taking combat reflexes and turning it into a quasi lockdown build. You're a stealthy character so you'll have a good dex mod and since you'll be hidden you will have tons of mobs walking blindly into your threatened area provoking AoO's and if your other stealthy character takes combat reflexes you should be able to take down most mobs before they even know whats happening. Have the druid and cleric drop some AoE spels to mop up the stragglers and you're golden. :smalltongue:

[bendking]

If you're running improved trip with a spiked chain you might try taking combat reflexes and turning it into a quasi lockdown build. You're a stealthy character so you'll have a good dex mod and since you'll be hidden you will have tons of mobs walking blindly into your threatened area provoking AoO's and if your other stealthy character takes combat reflexes you should be able to take down most mobs before they even know whats happening. Have the druid and cleric drop some AoE spels to mop up the stragglers and you're golden. :smalltongue:

But AoO doesn't make the defender lose his Dex bonus, so why bother?

[nedz]

But AoO doesn't make the defender lose his Dex bonus, so why bother?

Because you can trip them, and then hit them for a small amount of damage.
The damage is unimportant — battlefield control is much more powerful because whilst they are floundering around on the ground they are not hitting you, or anyone else. You have basically removed them from the fight and they can be dealt with later.

[bendking]

Because you can trip them, and then hit them for a small amount of damage.
The damage is unimportant — battlefield control is much more powerful because whilst they are floundering around on the ground they are not hitting you, or anyone else. You have basically removed them from the fight and they can be dealt with later.

I would take it, but I have more important feats to take first like Shadow Hand, Adaptive Style, Craven, Gloom Razor, Dark Stalker, Improved Trip, and mabye then, if I can i'll take that, lol.

[ArcturusV]

Always the problem with feats.

Besides, if you do end up with some nigh auto success Lockdown abilities like a lot of Spiked Chain Builds, you can usually expect your DM to start getting nasty.

[jhardin87]

I was thinkingthinking that withto your reach coupled with improved trip, you would be provoking AoO's and SA's all over the battlefield for your buddy to exploit. Ultimately its your character to play however you want. These are all just ideas and suggestions on how to differentiate yourself from the other sneaky character and give your character a different "flavor". Try running a few combat playtests with your buddy before starting the campaign to come up with different strategies and builds to see what works best and fitsfor you both. Find what feels right for you. That way you can try different options outside of the campaign and not risk being locked into a "broken" build

[bendking]

Always the problem with feats.

Besides, if you do end up with some nigh auto success Lockdown abilities like a lot of Spiked Chain Builds, you can usually expect your DM to start getting nasty.
So what do you suggest?


I was thinkingthinking that withto your reach coupled with improved trip, you would be provoking AoO's and SA's all over the battlefield for your buddy to exploit. Ultimately its your character to play however you want. These are all just ideas and suggestions on how to differentiate yourself from the other sneaky character and give your character a different "flavor". Try running a few combat playtests with your buddy before starting the campaign to come up with different strategies and builds to see what works best and fitsfor you both. Find what feels right for you. That way you can try different options outside of the campaign and not risk being locked into a "broken" build

I would try that, but my party is really against building and optimizing, something about "picking feats and skills that only fit your character", so combat playtests are not going to happen.
But i'll still consider it, although if i'll take it, it will be more productive because I do more damage (I have 18 Dex, he has 16) Plus, he uses a dagger (Now that I think about it, got any suggestions other than daggers for him?) so Combat Reflexes will really fit me more, but I guess we'll see.

[jhardin87]

But AoO doesn't make the defender lose his Dex bonus, so why bother?

The AoO doesnt rob them of dex bonus but the trip does, which then provokes AoO's from anyone in range ie: your other rogue, who can them SA them, and with the free ataack from improved trip you get your own SA. If you are positioned correctly you get to SAs for each trip and the battlefield control is just icing on the cake

[jhardin87]

Kukri's are fun because of the crit threat range. Make then keen and you have a 1/4 chance of a crit

[bendking]

Kukri's are fun because of the crit threat range. Make then keen and you have a 1/4 chance of a crit

What's a Keen Kukri? And what advantage does it have over a regular dagger?

[ArcturusV]

A Kukri is a curved knife that crits on a 18-20 if I remember for x2 damage. Keen enchantment gives it a double bonus to Critical hit range. So any roll from 15-20 will threaten a Crit. It's not a bad choice, particularly for stealth characters that are interested in taking people down quickly and who trust in luck.

Or the fact that the guy was one of those people who spends 2 hours in the store rolling dice until he finds one that rolls high consistently. :smallyuk:

[DEMON]

What's a Keen Kukri? And what advantage does it have over a regular dagger?

keen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) kukri (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)
Threat range 15-20.

[bendking]

Cool, is it an exotic weapon?

[ArcturusV]

Nope, Light One Handed Martial Melee weapon. Right in the Player's Handbook too so it's kinda hard for even the most stubborn DMs to deny you it.

[bendking]

Nope, Light One Handed Martial Melee weapon. Right in the Player's Handbook too so it's kinda hard for even the most stubborn DMs to deny you it.

Awesome, i'll suggest it to him.
Thanks for all the help man.

[Psyren]

It's not a bad idea but I'd be worried about the rogue getting outshone. A rogue fighting alongside a Shadow Hand Swordsage is going to feel outclassed fairly quickly.

I recommend that he switch to Factotum, Psychic Rogue or Beguiler.

[bendking]

It's not a bad idea but I'd be worried about the rogue getting outshone. A rogue fighting alongside a Shadow Hand Swordsage is going to feel outclassed fairly quickly.

I recommend that he switch to Factotum, Psychic Rogue or Beguiler.

Why would he get outshone? After I get 2d6 SA from Assassin's Stance it's not going to go up anymore, and rogue gets one more 1d6 every 2 levels, so his SA will be better than mine, won't it?
Besides, rogue is also a skill monkey, he can contribute in many more ways.

[bendking]

Uh, can you answer me? SECRET BUMP MESSAGE

[ArcturusV]

Not having ToB, I can't hazard a guess. But if he's going to get hurt by being outshone... well... just wait until the Druid gets firing on all cylinders and he has Class Features stronger than the Rogue? It happens. Though if you are working out tactics and ideas with the guy before the game, it shouldn't be a problem. At worst he'll just feel like your wingman, a necessary component but not exactly a solo artist.

[Siltharon]

Why would he get outshone? After I get 2d6 SA from Assassin's Stance it's not going to go up anymore, and rogue gets one more 1d6 every 2 levels, so his SA will be better than mine, won't it?
Besides, rogue is also a skill monkey, he can contribute in many more ways.

Well as far as I understood your setup and the way your friend (the rogue) wants to play he is also focusing on stealth and dmg through SA. The skillmonkey role is ofc also a spot he is filling (Does the Druid or Cleric has high ch btw?).

The thing is that in the stealth part you will be on par (if not better through stances), your dmg will be higher (if your friend finds a way to apply SA very often it might be ok, but SA is still not the most reliable source of dmg) thanks to SA and maneuvers and last but not least you over more cc via Trip and maneuvers.

So in the end you will most likely outshine him in stealthiness, dmgwise and ccwise. If you really would want to go all the way you could dip factotum and go able learner and you'd have it all. (not taking multiclassing and optimizing into consideration now but if you both would optimize equally into those areas you'd overall still be ahead)
So effectively if you play stealthy SS and he plays a rogue, there are just a few areas left he could shine over your other partymembers and esp. and those are probably not the areas attracting him about playing a rogue.

So my suggestion? You could hind him to thematic similar classes which still can fill the roles your group needs while playing stealthy and deal dmg and have more utility ... If you generally like psionics pick up the psionic rogue. Similar flavour + can do pretty much everything a rogue can plus more.
I'd recommend checking out Psyren's Handbook for Psychic Rogues .... helped me a lot when creating my last character.

Btw which system do you guys use for your stats?

[jhardin87]

With allyou those skill points he gets as a rogue I might suggest he try taking some of the skill triks out of complete scoundrel. They're like little mini feats you can get by spending 2 skill points that allow you to do some pretty awesome stuff, kinda like all those stunts you see in action movies. (Yes theres even one that lets you swing across gaps with a whip just like Indiana Jones) one of my favorites being mosquito bite that makes it to where if you hit a flat footed foe with a light weapon they wont notice the damage, allowing him to SA without being detected;-)

[bendking]

Well as far as I understood your setup and the way your friend (the rogue) wants to play he is also focusing on stealth and dmg through SA. The skillmonkey role is ofc also a spot he is filling (Does the Druid or Cleric has high ch btw?).

The thing is that in the stealth part you will be on par (if not better through stances), your dmg will be higher (if your friend finds a way to apply SA very often it might be ok, but SA is still not the most reliable source of dmg) thanks to SA and maneuvers and last but not least you over more cc via Trip and maneuvers.

So in the end you will most likely outshine him in stealthiness, dmgwise and ccwise. If you really would want to go all the way you could dip factotum and go able learner and you'd have it all. (not taking multiclassing and optimizing into consideration now but if you both would optimize equally into those areas you'd overall still be ahead)
So effectively if you play stealthy SS and he plays a rogue, there are just a few areas left he could shine over your other partymembers and esp. and those are probably not the areas attracting him about playing a rogue.

So my suggestion? You could hind him to thematic similar classes which still can fill the roles your group needs while playing stealthy and deal dmg and have more utility ... If you generally like psionics pick up the psionic rogue. Similar flavour + can do pretty much everything a rogue can plus more.
I'd recommend checking out Psyren's Handbook for Psychic Rogues .... helped me a lot when creating my last character.

Btw which system do you guys use for your stats?

We use the 32 buy system.
And of course, damage isn't what attracts him to being a rogue, but his SA will be really good, and together I can net him ALOT of SA, so I think he won't feel outshone.
By the way, I didn't understand your reasoning for dipping into Factotum.


With allyou those skill points he gets as a rogue I might suggest he try taking some of the skill triks out of complete scoundrel. They're like little mini feats you can get by spending 2 skill points that allow you to do some pretty awesome stuff, kinda like all those stunts you see in action movies. (Yes theres even one that lets you swing across gaps with a whip just like Indiana Jones) one of my favorites being mosquito bite that makes it to where if you hit a flat footed foe with a light weapon they wont notice the damage, allowing him to SA without being detected;-)

I'll definitely suggest those to him, so thanks.

[Siltharon]

We use the 32 buy system.
And of course, damage isn't what attracts him to being a rogue, but his SA will be really good, and together I can net him ALOT of SA, so I think he won't feel outshone.
By the way, I didn't understand your reasoning for dipping into Factotum.


Dipping into Factotum while picking able learner would make every skill ingame a classskill to you (except for extraordinary skills of certain classes, but I'm not even sure about that) and would give you trapfinding (+some small goodies). Together pretty awesome. It would make you a semi-skillmonkey up to the point where you can take up all the mainjobs of a rogue.

For example:
go Human (if you like templates go ahead / may I suggest the Dark-template from ToM if LA-buyoff is allowed)
take Able Learner as your bonusfeat
Pick up one level of Factotum and the rest according to your build.
Stats smth like: Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 8

Overall I recommend the Dark-template for both of you if you get it allowed and can buyoff.
The general thing is that you will probably outshine your friend when it comes down to general fight utility, dmg and maybe even stealthiness. Probably not outshining but doing most (the important ones) of his jobs as a skillmonkey would require a 1-level dip and a feat.

Ofc if you don't want to go that way ... don't do it and let him be a skillmonkey :) ... everybody should play the way one likes it right? If he is happy as a skillmonkey / stealth-fighter (2nd in the group after you) then there is nothing wrong with playing as you intend

Conclusion:
The weak spot in your equation is the rogue -> There are some classes who can do similar things and offer more. As I said before ... think about the Psychic Rogue. Brings all the goodies from the rogues with it + it can manifest Powers! (giving your friend even more utility and opportunities)
Like teleporting around? Running on walls? Having a psicrystal? ... heck you can even take Expanded Knowledge and Polymorph. And all that on top of a normal rogues (ofc you have some minor drawbacks but the exchange is very well worth it)

[Talderas]

A party with two stealthy characters and one isn't a wizard? My mind is blown.

[Psyren]

Why would he get outshone? After I get 2d6 SA from Assassin's Stance it's not going to go up anymore, and rogue gets one more 1d6 every 2 levels, so his SA will be better than mine, won't it?
Besides, rogue is also a skill monkey, he can contribute in many more ways.

In general, you'll be just as good a skillmonkey as he is, and you'll do more damage overall - less so from sneak attack, but you have hard-hitting maneuvers (e.g. Desert Wind/Tiger Claw stuff, and the Nightmare Blade line) and you furthermore get Dex to damage. You'll also have way more things to do in combat - his rounds will consist of tumbling into flanking position (assuming it's something he can sneak attack successfully in the first place) and full-attacking on the following round. Meanwhile you can teleport, fly, pounce, flank all by yourself, dodge spells, boost your saves etc. Rolling more d6s just doesn't compare.

[bendking]

Dipping into Factotum while picking able learner would make every skill ingame a classskill to you (except for extraordinary skills of certain classes, but I'm not even sure about that) and would give you trapfinding (+some small goodies). Together pretty awesome. It would make you a semi-skillmonkey up to the point where you can take up all the mainjobs of a rogue.

For example:
go Human (if you like templates go ahead / may I suggest the Dark-template from ToM if LA-buyoff is allowed)
take Able Learner as your bonusfeat
Pick up one level of Factotum and the rest according to your build.
Stats smth like: Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 8

Overall I recommend the Dark-template for both of you if you get it allowed and can buyoff.
The general thing is that you will probably outshine your friend when it comes down to general fight utility, dmg and maybe even stealthiness. Probably not outshining but doing most (the important ones) of his jobs as a skillmonkey would require a 1-level dip and a feat.

Ofc if you don't want to go that way ... don't do it and let him be a skillmonkey :) ... everybody should play the way one likes it right? If he is happy as a skillmonkey / stealth-fighter (2nd in the group after you) then there is nothing wrong with playing as you intend

Conclusion:
The weak spot in your equation is the rogue -> There are some classes who can do similar things and offer more. As I said before ... think about the Psychic Rogue. Brings all the goodies from the rogues with it + it can manifest Powers! (giving your friend even more utility and opportunities)
Like teleporting around? Running on walls? Having a psicrystal? ... heck you can even take Expanded Knowledge and Polymorph. And all that on top of a normal rogues (ofc you have some minor drawbacks but the exchange is very well worth it)

OK, read it all:
I won't take his role, I want him to feel useful, but i'll keep that in mind for future characters.
And sadly, he isn't that good, and pretty new, so I wouldn't want to over encumber him with all these new rules about psionics, and a whole new class to learn, so I think he'll stick with rogue for now.

[Siltharon]

Ok if that's the case then may I just post this link here (if you haven't found already): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233

contains obviously a lot of information about building rogues (also for a beginner) and probably your friend can find some useful tipps in there (and don't forget the Darkstalker feat!) ... if it's still too much for him maybe you can go over the Handbook and suggest him some feats and/or which skill tricks to take

Hope you both have a good time playing your characters anyways and I'd like to hear some of the tricks you pulled of when the campaign is running :).

[bendking]

Ok if that's the case then may I just post this link here (if you haven't found already): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233

contains obviously a lot of information about building rogues (also for a beginner) and probably your friend can find some useful tipps in there (and don't forget the Darkstalker feat!) ... if it's still too much for him maybe you can go over the Handbook and suggest him some feats and/or which skill tricks to take

Hope you both have a good time playing your characters anyways and I'd like to hear some of the tricks you pulled of when the campaign is running :).

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll read the handbook for him (he also doesn't speak English too well, so I'll have to translate some bits for him).
And if you really want to hear some tricks we pulled (if we'll manage too) just PM me :)

[Pandoras Folly]

The most memorable campaigns I was a part of were "themed".

Barbarian party a ranger, a cleric of Vikings, and three differnt flavored barbarians. Mann it was epic.

Monk party a wu Jen, 4 monks each from a different "school", and a bard

An all sneaky party. We ended up forming a lawful neutral mafia that spanned empires.


choosing a theme can be totally worth it. Ill never forget when we realized we were an all sneaky party at level one, when our rogue said "I hide and move silently", and every single person, even my barbarian, said "me too". We all made the checks.