A question for female gamers

[Jeivar]

I'm curious about some individual opinions: Do you like playing male characters when games give a choice between PC gender?
I'm a guy and personally I tend to play female characters. I just like action heroines, and since there aren't too many of them in movies I get my fix in video games. I know some people prefer being able to project themselves into the main characters, but I guess I'm just not one of them. How about you?

[Terraoblivion]

There are enough male leads out there already that picking female doesn't even start to balance it, so no, I always choose female. Beyond that people have in recent years become more aware of objectifying portrayals of women and at least some diversity has come from people trying to avoid it, especially in games where you create your character yourself. On the other hand, there isn't really much awareness of male power fantasies leading to the male picks having a tendency to be generic body builder types.

[Remmirath]

I play a roughly even balance of male and female characters in computer games, just as I do in roleplaying games. Obviously, it's not completely even, but over time it tends to be. If I have a general character concept knocking around in my head, then I pick whichever lets me realise it best. In games where a portrait can be picked, it's almost entirely even; in more recent games it varies more, because it often ends up that I can't make the sort of character I want to play at the time as being either male or female, depending, because of the type of appearance customisation (and sometimes the voice, but that's a rant that I won't go into here).

That applies to roleplaying games, where I like having a wide variety of characters who are as different as possible from each other and from myself. I don't much like doing the same thing twice with them.

For games such as first-person shooters or some strategy games, I just pick whatever looks the coolest at the time or based on statistical differences if present. If the option is available, I'll be more likely to pick something completely non-human (in Unreal Tournament, for instance, I tend to use robots or Skaarj rather than any of the more human/humanoid options).

Some other things do factor into it, such as armour -- I'm very annoyed by non-functional armour for characters, and this tends to afflict female characters more than male characters. In games where that's a problem, I'm much more likely to play a male character than female for that reason.

[warty goblin]

On the other hand, there isn't really much awareness of male power fantasies leading to the male picks having a tendency to be generic body builder types.
I'd say we (meaning men) are fairly aware of the whole male power fantasy character thing. It's just that not many men really object to it, and I'd bet most of use kinda like it. Games are mostly power fantasy anyways, wanting to play them as something society codes as awesome is hardly all that weird.

[Brother Oni]

My wife reports that she picks a mix, however that may be because the majority of games she plays (JRPGs) tend to have the male characters following the main story with the female characters tending to have side or secondary stories to the main plot.

Other games she plays like League of Legends, she just plays the character appropriate for the role, gender being irrelevant.

She does like drawing the cute/female characters though, but that's separate to the question.


I'd say we (meaning men) are fairly aware of the whole male power fantasy character thing. It's just that not many men really object to it, and I'd bet most of use kinda like it.

Guilty as charged.

[Terraoblivion]

I dunno, looking at my male friends and fantasy members I can't think of any who really like the overmuscled look. In Denmark at least it tends to be associated with stupidity, crudeness, criminality and an inability to function socially, making it a symbol of weakness more than power. It also has heavy connotations of immaturity, making it something anybody here who wants to look mature has to look down on. Also, it has much the same problem that heavily sexualized portrayals of women does in that it's exclusionary to women, so it's fairly reasonable to imagine it being given reassessment along with the portrayal of women.

[Brother Oni]

I dunno, looking at my male friends and fantasy members I can't think of any who really like the overmuscled look. In Denmark at least it tends to be associated with stupidity, crudeness, criminality and an inability to function socially, making it a symbol of weakness more than power. It also has heavy connotations of immaturity, making it something anybody here who wants to look mature has to look down on. Also, it has much the same problem that heavily sexualized portrayals of women does in that it's exclusionary to women, so it's fairly reasonable to imagine it being given reassessment along with the portrayal of women.

I guess it very much depends on your social circle and your environment.

Within the context of a game, the heavily overmuscled look has tended towards the 'strong silent' type of characters, along with the sort of hyper-aggressive tactics and gameplay (typically charging head first at the enemy) that goes along with the male power fantasy.
However evidence suggests that being an omnipotent warrior is popular fantasy (take a look at the Dynasty Warrior series, along with other similar games, like God of War), regardless of the gender of characters.

With regard to the issue of it having the same problems as the over-sexualisation of female characters, I think that has been discussed at some length already on this forum and I have nothing further to add to that debate.

[pffh]

Not a female but I do know a fair amount of female gamers (10-15) and all of them go for the female option if it's available. Had a chat with a couple of them about it once and both of them agreed that it was because getting to play as a decent woman was rare enough in video games that they felt compelled to do it when given a choice.

[Castaras]

I always play female characters whenever possible. There are three instances I can think of when it comes to me playing male characters:

- Mount and Blade, because it gave me an easier introduction to the game (now I play only female)
- Saints Row 2, because the female voices in Saints Row 2 are bloody awful.
- Thief, because Garrett is awesome.

Games where you have a set character to play without a choice of genders annoys me a lot - the male character has to be a good well-fleshed out one.

To be fair, I get annoyed at games which don't have character/avatar customisation. It's a small thing, but I like to customise my characters. The issue with female characters in a lot of games is the issue of the oversexualisation of them. I've mostly managed to tune out this over sexualisation so that I don't get pissed off at it, which means I can say that Might and Magic 8 is my favourite RPG ever even with the female necromancers having only spider tattoos to cover themselves (http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/flamestryke/mm8/images8/chars8/pc12.jpg) or Dark Elf Bikinis (http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/flamestryke/mm8/images8/chars8/pc20.jpg). On the plus side, armour looks awesome on female characters compared to males (and is proper armour at that).

[Terraoblivion]

There is no singular male power fantasy with a set content. The overmuscled look is a male power fantasy, just like driving a hummer, surviving in the wilderness solely eating what you kill or sitting in a nice suit in a huge office and being able to decide the fate of thousands. While it often coincides with being an invincible warrior, it doesn't necessarily and the appeal of the two are distinct. To use your example of Dynasty Warriors, skinny scholar Zhuge Liang is one of the most, if not the most popular character from those games and the original work they're very loosely based on. Not to mention that the games are Japanese where the overmuscled look is associated with villains, idiots, Americans and flamboyantly gay men, yet the games sell well enough there that they keep making them.

[RagingKrikkit]

For the record, I have a bad feeling that this thread is going to die by red text.

As a guy, I tend to play a more-or-less equal mix of male and female characters across video games and RPGs, essentially going with characters as the concept comes to me. My biggest balancing act, though, is probably the Mass Effect games, where I have gotten into the habbit of creating Shepards in male/female pairs with their names starting with the same letter.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As a guy who's on the brink of getting a computer that can actually handle games, and is looking to get some JRPGs that can work on the Wii, I think I'll tend to play men. Some games (S.T.A.L.K.E.R., most JRPGs) force you to play a guy. Others (ArmA II, Crusader Kings II) make it a hell of a lot harder to play a girl (hopefully ArmA III will have better support for women). If I ever get Guild Wars 2 or Elder Scrolls online, I think I'll play a mix, because I can have multiple characters. In a game with pre-made characters, I might play a girl if I like her skills and appearance, or if I'm playing a second or third run.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I dunno, looking at my male friends and fantasy members I can't think of any who really like the overmuscled look. In Denmark at least it tends to be associated with stupidity, crudeness, criminality and an inability to function socially, making it a symbol of weakness more than power. It also has heavy connotations of immaturity, making it something anybody here who wants to look mature has to look down on. Also, it has much the same problem that heavily sexualized portrayals of women does in that it's exclusionary to women, so it's fairly reasonable to imagine it being given reassessment along with the portrayal of women.
It's an American thing too, it's just more subtle and odd. We throw around the word "jock" or "thug" when we encounter them in real life, but don't have any problem with the idea in games.

[Mando Knight]

It's a difference between being muscular and a musclehead. Being muscular implies physical fitness and virility. Being a musclehead is not realizing that being muscular doesn't mean you're a better person than someone who isn't. It's the application of strength, not its possession, that makes the man.

[Poison_Fish]

I know for my local social circle, the women in my group tend towards gender optional games specifically to play women. One friend does in fact play only games where she can either get a choice or a women is the lead (Persona 3 PSP, the new Fire Emblem game coming out, etc.). Among the men of my local group, it's a mix. I'd say half of them tend to stick to men as characters, and the other half mix it up. I somewhat mix it up myself, though I overall tend to play more women then men when given the choice.

[Wyntonian]

It's an American thing too, it's just more subtle and odd. We throw around the word "jock" or "thug" when we encounter them in real life, but don't have any problem with the idea in games.

Pretty sure "jock" really means "Guy who is bigger and stronger than me who isn't my friend", just like "player" means "guy who has more sex than me" and "slut" means "a girl who thinks sex is fun, but not with me".

[Terraoblivion]

It's a difference between being muscular and a musclehead. Being muscular implies physical fitness and virility. Being a musclehead is not realizing that being muscular doesn't mean you're a better person than someone who isn't. It's the application of strength, not its possession, that makes the man.

I'm talking well into body builder territory, where it starts being actively unhealthy rather than a sign of fitness, not leaner types nor actual participants in purely strength-based sports. Of course, a lot of people have become so adjusted to media where normal is bodybuilder and muscular is some kind of weird mutant, that actual fit bodies look skinny to them.

[RPGuru1331]

When given a choice between two characters I create, I very, very rarely create a guy. However, when choosing between two characters who already exist, it tends to vary by character, and that gives it a strong bias towards male characters, because they're generally better fleshed out and better characters.

[AgentofHellfire]

I'm male, and I'm biased towards female (call it 60/40) for a couple of reasons:

1. There's an erroneous perception out there that men don't play women without being immature about it, and especially that men don't play sexy women without being immature about it. I endeavor to correct both.
2. Women never have certain roles that men do. You never see, for example, a woman who fits into the "Corrupt Noble" archetype, or a woman who fits into the "Idiot Hero" archetype. Just doesn't happen. Since I tend to like entering unexplored territory with my characters, women are where I tend to look. Admittedly, there are a few female-only roles, but most of those are "love interest" sorts. With one exception.
3. If forced to choose between the aesthetics of a standard-faire, "heroic" male body, and that of a standard-faire "heroic" female body, I will always like the latter. Well, almost always.


(Also, while we're talking about objectification, I think we should all keep in mind that women select sexualized outfits for themselves just as much as men do for them)

[Brother Oni]

To use your example of Dynasty Warriors, skinny scholar Zhuge Liang is one of the most, if not the most popular character from those games and the original work they're very loosely based on.

The only poll I can find where Zhuge Liang is the most popular character is this one (http://www.gamesabyss.com/top-10-characters-of-dynasty-warriors/) where it's measured by their impact on the actual history, not in the game.

The only other semi formal poll I can find is this one (http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/smusou6/enquete/) for DW6, where he's 24th.
Interestingly enough, there appears to be three non-'pretty boys' in the top ten with Xiahou Dun placing highest at second (Zhang Liao and Ma Chao being the other two).

The main reason I can think of for Zhuge Liang being enduring popular is his personality from Romance of the Three Kingdoms, where he as a propensity for being a sneaky git and sheer audacity he shows in his plans at times. In game, he's always been somewhat lackluster, like most strategists.



Not to mention that the games are Japanese where the overmuscled look is associated with villains, idiots, Americans and flamboyantly gay men, yet the games sell well enough there that they keep making them.

Thinking about it, the only blatantly over muscled character that fits your standard of body builder is Dian Wei (http://images.wikia.com/dynastywarriors/images/2/29/Dianwei-dw8.jpg), whose depiction is borderline idiot and is technically a villain by association with Wei.

However the most powerful character both in game and in the novel is Lu Bu (http://images.wikia.com/dynastywarriors/images/a/ab/Lubu-dw8.jpg) who fits the villain, but not the overmuscled look, in any of the DW depictions.

[sana]

As a female, I tend to go for male characters.

-If i have to stare at someones backside for hours of gaming, i just prefer male behinds.
-If the game has player character voice acting i somehow always find the female voices just wrong.

But an exception is actually mass effect, I just couldn't let the opportunity slip to "bunk" with Kaidan.
Now if the first game had a male shep and Kaidan option i would have preferred that.

[Terraoblivion]

Hmmm, I see. Then my estimation of his popularity came down to selection bias and having half the mentions I remember be due to him being popular from the original novels. I do know that his has come up more frequently in both entertainment and conversations with friends than even characters as significant to the original book as Cao Cao and Liu Bei.

As for the other comments about the fact that only one character is truly body builder'ish, kinda does prove my point in entering discussion about the game, that mindless face smashing isn't intrinsically linked to huge, bulging muscles. If it were there'd be far more people with that kind of look in it.

[RagingKrikkit]

If the game has player character voice acting i somehow always find the female voices just wrong.

Funny, I find that, at least in Mass Effect, I like the female voice acting better. Jennifer Hale just seems to have put more inflection into the lines than Mark Meer did.

[Anteros]

I dunno, looking at my male friends and fantasy members I can't think of any who really like the overmuscled look. In Denmark at least it tends to be associated with stupidity, crudeness, criminality and an inability to function socially, making it a symbol of weakness more than power. It also has heavy connotations of immaturity, making it something anybody here who wants to look mature has to look down on. Also, it has much the same problem that heavily sexualized portrayals of women does in that it's exclusionary to women, so it's fairly reasonable to imagine it being given reassessment along with the portrayal of women.

That's...a very interesting cultural take considering the ridiculous amount of discipline it takes to actually achieve that look. It's almost the exact opposite here in the states.


I'm talking well into body builder territory, where it starts being actively unhealthy rather than a sign of fitness, not leaner types nor actual participants in purely strength-based sports. Of course, a lot of people have become so adjusted to media where normal is bodybuilder and muscular is some kind of weird mutant, that actual fit bodies look skinny to them.

How in the world is body building unhealthy? I can see the argument that steroids are unhealthy...but body building in and of itself? It's one of the healthiest things you can possibly do.

[NecroRebel]

How in the world is body building unhealthy? I can see the argument that steroids are unhealthy...but body building in and of itself? It's one of the healthiest things you can possibly do.

Not really; "body building," as I take the use here, is about building up muscle mass above all other concerns. This means that body builders often aren't exercising their lungs or heart as they should, meaning that they're more prone to damaging these, and are far more liable to suffer from brittle blood vessels, even if they do not use enhancing chemicals, due to not developing the vascular system to support their muscles.

In addition, professional aesthetic body builders, that is those who build muscles to show off in competitions, routinely allow themselves to become dehydrated, as this causes musculature to become more visible through the skin. This, naturally, is extremely unhealthy. A diet overly high in proteins as these same men consume is also not as healthy as the alternatives. Incidentally, such people are often significantly weaker physically than those who use a more balanced and effective exercise regimen; if you look at people who win the pull-a-bus competitions, they don't look anything like professional body builders. Olympic weight-lifters don't look like professional body builders, either.

Basically, body building is about the look, not about health. A person with a better-rounded exercise regimen will be healthier than a body builder. A body builder may be healthier than someone who doesn't exercise, but body building is far from "one of the healthiest things you can possibly do." Hell, simply going for an hour-long jog three times a week is healthier (though body builders may do that as well, it isn't related to their body building).

[Terraoblivion]

That's...a very interesting cultural take considering the ridiculous amount of discipline it takes to actually achieve that look. It's almost the exact opposite here in the states.

I'm not sure about discipline. My sister's former boyfriend who became very attached to my parents and insists on friending them on facebook has never managed to hold a job for more than a couple of months before getting into a fight with the boss or deciding to just not show up. It also took him three years to pass the final middle school exams because he didn't bother to even show up to class. Similarly he breaks up with and gets back together with his girlfriend roughly once a month if not more frequently and still has never had a stable job or an education beyond middle school. Yet for all that he has managed to mostly achieve the look, though naturally not with the dehydration professional ones use before competition. And he is quite typical of one of the two groups most frequently engaging in body building in Denmark, the other being members of criminal gangs and organized crime.


How in the world is body building unhealthy? I can see the argument that steroids are unhealthy...but body building in and of itself? It's one of the healthiest things you can possibly do.

And I would have explained it, but NecroRebel said it way better than I possibly could. It's essentially about an unhealthy, unbalanced diet and focusing heavily on training towards an aesthetic ideal regardless of health concerns. As a further note, if you eat too much protein the body cannot process it properly, so it gets broken down to a toxin in the liver, which can in extreme cases cause actual living failure.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I oft play females in game. I just like to see myself in the role of the lead, which is easier in games with gender options when I pick a female. Not to say I never play males in gender optional games, I just generally leave them to second play-throughs, on the rare occasion those happen.

[Triaxx]

As a male, I tend to Split evenly, though certain games tend me towards one over the other. Fallout New Vegas for example, saw more female characters, for no reason other than knowing how the Legion felt about them. It's one thing to defeat them with a male whom they respect already, but another to teach them to respect a female character.

Skyrim on the other hand, I've mixed about evenly, and played both genders as almost all the 'archetypes' available.

[Anteros]

Not really; "body building," as I take the use here, is about building up muscle mass above all other concerns. This means that body builders often aren't exercising their lungs or heart as they should, meaning that they're more prone to damaging these, and are far more liable to suffer from brittle blood vessels, even if they do not use enhancing chemicals, due to not developing the vascular system to support their muscles.

In addition, professional aesthetic body builders, that is those who build muscles to show off in competitions, routinely allow themselves to become dehydrated, as this causes musculature to become more visible through the skin. This, naturally, is extremely unhealthy. A diet overly high in proteins as these same men consume is also not as healthy as the alternatives. Incidentally, such people are often significantly weaker physically than those who use a more balanced and effective exercise regimen; if you look at people who win the pull-a-bus competitions, they don't look anything like professional body builders. Olympic weight-lifters don't look like professional body builders, either.

Basically, body building is about the look, not about health. A person with a better-rounded exercise regimen will be healthier than a body builder. A body builder may be healthier than someone who doesn't exercise, but body building is far from "one of the healthiest things you can possibly do." Hell, simply going for an hour-long jog three times a week is healthier (though body builders may do that as well, it isn't related to their body building).

I think you have quite a few misconceptions here. First of all being that bodybuilders are less likely to do cardiovascular exercise than a normal person, when in reality the reverse is quite true. In addition, weight lifting, when done properly actually does result in elevated heart rate and increased cardiovascular activity.

As far as the dehydration issue goes...I do know several people who participate in this for contests. How often exactly do you think people are doing this to themselves though? Most bodybuilders participate in only a handful of contests a year, with a large period of time between them. You're making it sound as though they're walking around in a perpetually dehydrated state, when in reality they do so a handful of days out of the year at most. Besides, while I certainly can't argue that dehydration is bad for you...how unhealthy do you really think it is? Ever woken up with a bad hangover? If so, you were probably just as dehydrated. It doesn't feel great, but the effects on long term health are negligible.

As to your last point, just because they don't get as strong as someone who trains entirely for strength alone, doesn't make bodybuilding itself unhealthy. In fact...from a general health perspective they're probably quite a bit healthier due to the fact that they actually have to maintain a strict diet in order to keep their aesthetics as opposed to someone who is solely strength training and merely needs to take in a specific amount of protein and then eats anything they want on top of it.


I'm not sure about discipline. My sister's former boyfriend who became very attached to my parents and insists on friending them on facebook has never managed to hold a job for more than a couple of months before getting into a fight with the boss or deciding to just not show up. It also took him three years to pass the final middle school exams because he didn't bother to even show up to class. Similarly he breaks up with and gets back together with his girlfriend roughly once a month if not more frequently and still has never had a stable job or an education beyond middle school. Yet for all that he has managed to mostly achieve the look, though naturally not with the dehydration professional ones use before competition. And he is quite typical of one of the two groups most frequently engaging in body building in Denmark, the other being members of criminal gangs and organized crime.



And I would have explained it, but NecroRebel said it way better than I possibly could. It's essentially about an unhealthy, unbalanced diet and focusing heavily on training towards an aesthetic ideal regardless of health concerns. As a further note, if you eat too much protein the body cannot process it properly, so it gets broken down to a toxin in the liver, which can in extreme cases cause actual living failure.

This is something that Necro mentioned as well so I may as well address this too. You would have to eat literally hundreds and hundreds of grams of protein a day to reach that level. I'm talking in the range of 500 grams of protein. If you're consuming that much protein in a day, it's not because you're a bodybuilder. It's because you're stupid. In fact, most modern professional bodybuilders are on a very strict protein regimen and obtain the majority of their calories from fats rather than protein or even carbs. We all know that excess protein doesn't turn into muscle anyway, so why punish ourselves by force feeding it to ourselves? This isn't even accounting for supplementation such as multivitamins, calcium supplements, etc. As a result, an average bodybuilder's diet is far, far more healthy than the average person rather than less so.

I mean, sure you can take the sport to unhealthy extremes, but I don't think there's a single thing in existence that you can't do that with.

[NecroRebel]

I think you have quite a few misconceptions here. First of all being that bodybuilders are less likely to do cardiovascular exercise than a normal person, when in reality the reverse is quite true. In addition, weight lifting, when done properly actually does result in elevated heart rate and increased cardiovascular activity.

Perhaps we're discussing different things, though this is mainly my fault; I shouldn't have talked about professionals, because the original point was a view of immaturity, which suggests amateur body building. I cannot speak for the Danish view on professional body builders, but in the States there are people who think of themselves as "body builders" who just lift weights all the time and don't do any CV work.

Also, while anaerobic exercise such as weight training does elevate heart rate, it doesn't do so nearly as much as aerobic exercise, even when done properly.


I mean, sure you can take the sport to unhealthy extremes, but I don't think there's a single thing in existence that you can't do that with.

The stereotype that Terraoblivion claims exists in Denmark that sparked this discussion was likely created due to people who did take the sport to unhealthy extremes. Stereotypes have an annoying tendency to be based on the worst examples of a group :smallannoyed:

[Surrealistik]

For the record, I have a bad feeling that this thread is going to die by red text.

Inevitable as Godwin's Law.

[Jeivar]

As a female, I tend to go for male characters.

-If i have to stare at someones backside for hours of gaming, i just prefer male behinds.


It's pretty refreshing to get hear that argument from the opposite side. :smallbiggrin:

[GolemsVoice]

Kinda of related, I spoke to a few women who played WoW with me, asking them if the sometimes much more revealing armor for women bothered them. Those that I asked all either said no, it doesn't bother them, or they even said they liked it that way. Only one said that this was the reason she never played female characters anymore in MMORPGs, but she started with Lineage 2, where such things were even worse.

That being said, I asked about, well, five or so people? So it's not like it was a huge survey.

[Krazzman]

I can answer this for my fiance quite easily. She says there are too few heroines out there as such she even says that hacking the Legend of Zelda to make "Link" and Zelda not a love-interest but a best friends encounter between two girls is a thing she wants to see. As such I probably have to hack the games later as another father did, if we ever get kids.

As such she plays games for their looks mostly. WoW she only has female chars because she dislikes how most of the males cast their spells.

But on the topic of choosing male-chars... well she is a Stallone, Schwarzenegger and those guys fan. The main point I even can understand is in our fitnesscenter even from those "amateur bodybuilders" no one has a good looking back. We even have "sly moves" from him as I don't want my back to be looking bad and he has some good information on how he trained for Rambo's back.
And from a character point I like more muscular types more. I like to play Dante from Devil May Cry more than I would like to play Dante from Devil May Anorexia. "Skinny" is ok if it is athletic and not slacky in games.

Kratos from God of War. His Savagery and the Artwork around him is just awesome. I won't achieve this, as I lack the discipline for it, but being athletic muscular is my goal.

About the Denmark thing... I won't call it interesting as the tone, I get from it, is sort of like: "Here overweights will be loved for their lack of discipline and musclemass." I might be a bit scorned about such things but the thing about the guy you mentioned: he probably would be the same if he weren't that muscular. I know people that nearly ditched their A-Levels and they are... to say it friendly: not musclular. As someone already said prejudices and stereotypes tend of the minority/extremes of things. I have met people that finished their apprentice ship in the same year as me although being a few years older and having had 3 schoolyears less. It's all about personal ambition and motivation.

[Kesnit]

-If i have to stare at someones backside for hours of gaming, i just prefer male behinds.

A male friend of mine plays female PCs for the same reason. :smallsmile:

As a male, I tend to split. I Skyrim, all of my characters (so far) have been male. In contrast, the character I leveled to 60 in Mass Effect and took into ME2 was female. In SW:TOR, my "in-your-face" characters (Sith Warrior, Bounty Hunter, and Republic Trooper) have all been female, while my more ranged toons have been male.

My wife plays almost entirely female characters.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Kinda of related, I spoke to a few women who played WoW with me, asking them if the sometimes much more revealing armor for women bothered them. Those that I asked all either said no, it doesn't bother them, or they even said they liked it that way. Only one said that this was the reason she never played female characters anymore in MMORPGs, but she started with Lineage 2, where such things were even worse.

I suspect there's some selection bias going on here. Women and girls who are bothered by the pervasive fanservice in gaming are not going to get into gaming in the first place, no?

[GolemsVoice]

In a way, of course, and I don't claim my results are anything other than asking random women I happened to know.

However you can a) play a man
b) change your gear to something less skimpy (in WoW and some other games, this can be done by just changing the look, without actually changing the gear)
c) dislike it, but still play because you enjoy the game more than you dislike the image.

[Terraoblivion]

This is something that Necro mentioned as well so I may as well address this too. You would have to eat literally hundreds and hundreds of grams of protein a day to reach that level. I'm talking in the range of 500 grams of protein. If you're consuming that much protein in a day, it's not because you're a bodybuilder. It's because you're stupid. In fact, most modern professional bodybuilders are on a very strict protein regimen and obtain the majority of their calories from fats rather than protein or even carbs. We all know that excess protein doesn't turn into muscle anyway, so why punish ourselves by force feeding it to ourselves? This isn't even accounting for supplementation such as multivitamins, calcium supplements, etc. As a result, an average bodybuilder's diet is far, far more healthy than the average person rather than less so.

So, uh, where is the health benefit of body building? It seems like you're mostly discussing the health benefits of cardiovascular training and having a strict diet tailored to your needs, which I don't believe anyone has spoken against. It seems like at best the actual bodybuilding, that is the consumption of elevated levels of protein compared to your average person and training aimed at large, clearly defined muscles is mostly a net neutral if you're a competent professional engaged in the sport.

Besides, like with any other sport, the majority of participants are amateurs and frequently ones who don't really know all the details of how to train well for it. At least I'm pretty sure Denmark can't support a population of thousands of professional and semi-professional bodybuilders without anybody having noticed, while the number of amateurs in prisons alone reach those numbers here.


About the Denmark thing... I won't call it interesting as the tone, I get from it, is sort of like: "Here overweights will be loved for their lack of discipline and musclemass."

Uh,where did you get that from? A more logical conclusion seems to be that it's a classist distaste for a specific form of exercise, which is indeed the case among those 75% who went to high school rather than learning a trade or ending up unskilled after middle school. Running, sports like soccer and handball, swimming and biking are all extremely common exercises here and at least some moderate jogging is pretty much expected. It's just that body building have negative cultural connotations for the majority of the population here, not exercise in general.

As for my sister's ex, the point wasn't that bodybuilding made him undisciplined, but rather that you clearly don't need to be terribly disciplined in order to be an amateur bodybuilder.

[warty goblin]

It's pretty refreshing to get hear that argument from the opposite side. :smallbiggrin:

Agreed, to both sentiments. Tragically gaming guys don't tend to have the sort of build I like to stare at.

[Jeivar]

On the fanservice issue, I may be male but it does turn me off games. Not because I don't appreciate pretty women, but because I see it as an indicator that it has nothing of substance to offer so the devs fall on appealing to bewb-hungry 12-year olds with childish cheesecake.
Hey, by all means bring on the pretty girls, but put them in outfits that make sense.

[Anteros]

So, uh, where is the health benefit of body building? It seems like you're mostly discussing the health benefits of cardiovascular training and having a strict diet tailored to your needs, which I don't believe anyone has spoken against. It seems like at best the actual bodybuilding, that is the consumption of elevated levels of protein compared to your average person and training aimed at large, clearly defined muscles is mostly a net neutral if you're a competent professional engaged in the sport.

Besides, like with any other sport, the majority of participants are amateurs and frequently ones who don't really know all the details of how to train well for it. At least I'm pretty sure Denmark can't support a population of thousands of professional and semi-professional bodybuilders without anybody having noticed, while the number of amateurs in prisons alone reach those numbers here.



Uh,where did you get that from? A more logical conclusion seems to be that it's a classist distaste for a specific form of exercise, which is indeed the case among those 75% who went to high school rather than learning a trade or ending up unskilled after middle school. Running, sports like soccer and handball, swimming and biking are all extremely common exercises here and at least some moderate jogging is pretty much expected. It's just that body building have negative cultural connotations for the majority of the population here, not exercise in general.

As for my sister's ex, the point wasn't that bodybuilding made him undisciplined, but rather that you clearly don't need to be terribly disciplined in order to be an amateur bodybuilder.

To the first point...do you really not see how working your muscles and making them stronger is more healthy than letting them atrophy? If you really do need specific examples (which you shouldn't because the benefits are obvious...) someone who regularly lifts is much more likely to retain a high quality of life as they age than someone who does cardio alone. It's a simple fact that muscles support your skeletal system. Those 6 pack abs don't just look pretty, they're also supporting your back and preventing you from putting excess strain on it! Also, lifting weights increases coordination, strengthens the immune system, and obviously increases strength.

The reasons I brought up cardio training and diet are 2-fold. One, because I was replying to direct assertions that bodybuilders, even amateur ones don't participate in them, which is patently false. Secondly, I brought them up because they're intrinsic parts of bodybuilding. You don't get that figure you're working so hard for in the gym if you don't control your diet. You just end up big and fat. Also, while yes, it is possible to neglect cardio work...the vast majority of people don't do so.

Also, I hope you do understand that a large percentage of people in prisons lift weights because they literally have nothing else to occupy themselves with. They're in prison! A large percentage of those people didn't even lift before going to prison. It doesn't mean that someone like me who lifts is going to be any more likely to go commit a crime then someone who doesn't.

I'll be frank without trying to be rude. You don't think bodybuilding requires discipline, because you've never done it. It's just like anything else. If you want to be good at it, you have to work hard and be disciplined. If you don't think it requires more discipline to force yourself to go to the gym 4-5 times a week and lift hundreds of pounds in excruciating work outs when you'd rather be out with friends or sitting on the couch at home...I don't know what to tell you.




About the Denmark thing... I won't call it interesting as the tone, I get from it, is sort of like: "Here overweights will be loved for their lack of discipline and musclemass." I might be a bit scorned about such things but the thing about the guy you mentioned: he probably would be the same if he weren't that muscular. I know people that nearly ditched their A-Levels and they are... to say it friendly: not musclular. As someone already said prejudices and stereotypes tend of the minority/extremes of things. I have met people that finished their apprentice ship in the same year as me although being a few years older and having had 3 schoolyears less. It's all about personal ambition and motivation.

I don't think that tone is really what she (he?) was going for. More of a "we want people to be generally healthy, but the body-builder physique is scorned." It seems backwards to me...but like I said earlier, if it's a cultural thing it's understandable. Kinda like how in Japan the Bishonen look is so popular, while here in the states someone like that would probably be stereotyped. I do agree with the rest of your post though.

Also, maybe I need to PM you and get your back workout. :smallbiggrin:

[RagingKrikkit]

*Steps between parties* Okay, okay, we've discussed the stereotypes of Denmark. If you want to go on arguing about the health benefits or lack thereof of bodybuilding, may I suggest you take it to another thread. Heck, probably another subforum.

[Terraoblivion]

Also, I hope you do understand that a large percentage of people in prisons lift weights because they literally have nothing else to occupy themselves with. They're in prison! A large percentage of those people didn't even lift before going to prison. It doesn't mean that someone like me who lifts is going to be any more likely to go commit a crime then someone who doesn't.

Just a quick note here. You can't really extrapolate from American prisons to Danish ones. American prisons, even the milder ones, are considerably harsher than anything we have in Denmark. Even in our equivalent to maximum security prisons, the inmates have access to education, tv, video games and pretty much any type of entertainment that doesn't require contact to the outside world. In many of the less secure ones, they are even allowed to go outside the prison for a couple of hours every few days. So it's not like working out is literally the only thing on hand for them to occupy themselves with.

[RagingKrikkit]

*Sigh* No, we can't...

[Scowling Dragon]

Another question for women:

Do you like lemons in your tea?

And how much frosting do you like on your cakes?

And what is your favorite color?

[Jeivar]

Okay, please take the bodybuilding chat to PM. It has nothing to do with this thread.

[McDouggal]

If I am going to be roleplaying in a game, I tend to choose a male character. Not for any sexist reason, but because I find it easier to get into the mind of a character who I share that major of a trait with.

If I'm not, then I just choose what I feel like at the time.

[Anteros]

*Steps between parties* Okay, okay, we've discussed the stereotypes of Denmark. If you want to go on arguing about the health benefits or lack thereof of bodybuilding, may I suggest you take it to another thread. Heck, probably another subforum.

It's not like we're having a heated argument here. It's a discussion forum and sometimes discussions evolve past their original topic. I simply thought it interesting the cultural differences in play here, which is at least tangentially related to the original topic. It takes all of half a second to scroll past a post if it doesn't interest you anyway.

Still, in the interest of politeness I'll let the topic drop. It's pretty much run its course anyway.

[Ceric]

If the gender has no effect on gameplay, I usually choose female. But I'll play a male character if the female gear is too skimpy for my comfort, and I play male and female characters about evenly if it's a heavily role-playing game (although my first and primary character in roleplays will usually be female).

[Astrella]

I prefer female characters. Playing games was a nice way to explore my gender identity and I'd rather not play male characters then, though it mostly applies to games where you take on the mantle of the character, and less to things like strategy games or League of Legends say.

[MLai]

There seems to be an interesting dichotomy here between the expectations of Asian male vs female gamers, and NA male vs female gamers. I may just be imagining it, but here it is:

In Asia, male and female gamers don't have vastly different mental images of what a good male character looks like. Neither are looking for bodybuilder beefcakes.

In NA, you get this disparity where male gamers are accustomed to having bodybuilders or hulking mutant strongmen as their avatars, for "fulfilling the male power fantasy." While many female gamers find that sort of avatar annoying or simply not interesting.

[Avilan the Grey]

There seems to be an interesting dichotomy here between the expectations of Asian male vs female gamers, and NA male vs female gamers. I may just be imagining it, but here it is:

In Asia, male and female gamers don't have vastly different mental images of what a good male character looks like. Neither are looking for bodybuilder beefcakes.

In NA, you get this disparity where male gamers are accustomed to having bodybuilders or hulking mutant strongmen as their avatars, for "fulfilling the male power fantasy." While many female gamers find that sort of avatar annoying or simply not interesting.

And from my limited experience with Europeans I say we prefer the middle road. We laugh as hard at the muscled hulks (NA) as we do at the white-haired prettyboys (Asia). I think consensus here is "strong but realistic", meaning "he looks like he can actually hold that weapon, but without looking like the Abomination".

[MLai]

I think consensus here is "strong but realistic", meaning "he looks like he can actually hold that weapon, but without looking like the Abomination".
But, you're like right next door to Magnus Ver Magnusson. The guy broke Nathan Jones' arm while arm-wrestling him, forgodsake.
(Nathan Jones is that 7 ft tall champion Brad Pitt Achilles killed with 1 stab, early in the Troy movie.)

[huttj509]

While many female gamers find that sort of avatar annoying or simply not interesting.

And many male gamers. I personally get annoyed when people seem to be telling me what I want to play.

[Triaxx]

I have to say, through all the other points you might make against Skyrim and the Elder Scrolls in general, one thing they manage to avoid is to not lock you into a single weight, or even have those weights go too far over the top. Now, it can be a bit silly having a wizard at the top body weight, but it's your choice.

However, at that weight it's about what you'd expect someone who's spent time training in full heavy armor with a heavy weapon, but not someone who's just spent time training.

[warty goblin]

I have to say, through all the other points you might make against Skyrim and the Elder Scrolls in general, one thing they manage to avoid is to not lock you into a single weight, or even have those weights go too far over the top. Now, it can be a bit silly having a wizard at the top body weight, but it's your choice.

However, at that weight it's about what you'd expect someone who's spent time training in full heavy armor with a heavy weapon, but not someone who's just spent time training.

Unless I'm really forgetting something, TES games don't natively allow for different body types. Excepting the lizard and cat people, all members of each sex use the same two meshes.

Now Saint's Row II/III; those are games that don't lock you into any particular physical look. SR II moreso than three, but even III has a seriously flexible character creator.

[Castaras]

I have to say, through all the other points you might make against Skyrim and the Elder Scrolls in general, one thing they manage to avoid is to not lock you into a single weight, or even have those weights go too far over the top. Now, it can be a bit silly having a wizard at the top body weight, but it's your choice.

However, at that weight it's about what you'd expect someone who's spent time training in full heavy armor with a heavy weapon, but not someone who's just spent time training.

Skyrim female characters were always ridiculously thin. All my characters end up at max weight slider just because they otherwise look like they have no meat on their bones whatsoever.

[Derjuin]

I almost always make female characters. I feel more comfortable as them, except when I'm forced to wear skimpy armor. Most of the time, I can just deal with it and change armor later or, as in WoW and Guild Wars 2, just change the appearance, though some things really get to me.

For example, the starting cloth armor for female humans, sylvari and norns in Guild Wars 2 consists of a very short, frilly skirt (don't do an evasive roll); a rather revealing shirt...thing; and a garterbelt and boots. After seeing these, I have never made a spellcaster of any of those races, preferring Charr or Asura (because they start with actual PANTS). I can easily run around for a bit and find some pants in about an hour, yet for some reason I just feel uncomfortable starting in "armor" that is that skimpy.

I've been subjected to a lot of crap in online games, which sometimes makes me wish I would just roll a male character and pretend to be a guy. Things like being told I wasn't good enough specifically because I am a girl, or being told I don't exist, or am just a creepy guy pretending to be a girl to get free stuff* and make friends. It probably doesn't help that I don't at all act like the stereotypical delicate flower some of these people expect women to be, so they assume I must not be a woman at all.

*I turn down pretty much all out of the blue gifts and such. I don't feel very comfortable taking them, especially because the people that give them get flirty afterwards. I play games to have fun, not to look for a mate.

[Triaxx]

I meant that the ultra skinny characters still have some muscle, while the heaviest characters are strong, but not monsterously muscled.

[DigoDragon]

I asked my wife the OP question and she said she always plays female characters when the option is available because it is easier for her to get into the mindset of the character.
She also prefers the heavier side of the weight scale and heavier side of the armor scale if that helps with the poll.

[MLai]

Female avatars aren't made with female gamers in mind. They're made for male gamers to ogle at.

So the OP question is kind of barking up the wrong tree. Devs don't care what female gamers want in female avatars. They don't think girls play their games (a self-fulfilling prophecy).

[RagingKrikkit]

Umm, judging by this thread, its not a self-fufilling prophecy, and this thread is here to see how women react to those character models primarily intended for male eye candy.

[RPGuru1331]

Umm, judging by this thread, its not a self-fufilling prophecy, and this thread is here to see how women react to those character models primarily intended for male eye candy.

No, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy - this thread is self-selecting for women who already play games, and to a degree have already accepted this level of crap. It's been documented - this prediction causes game companies to design as though men are their only potential customers, which... makes men the overwhelming majority of their actual customers.

Personally, I'd rather grimace at eye-candy avatars than not have them available at all, because it's a marginal step forward, but I'd certainly rather have decent avatars available.

[Avilan the Grey]

Female avatars aren't made with female gamers in mind. They're made for male gamers to ogle at.

Far from always.
For example definitely false in all Bethesda games and Bioware Games.

[Serpentine]

In RPGs, I almost always start as a female character. I was thinking about doing a male run through of Dragon Age, though.
Honestly, I hardly ever notice skimpy outfits on those characters - not because I don't think it's an issue, but because I'm not very observant. I think it's definitely a problem, but it does seem to be getting better... slowly. Even games that are doing pretty well, like League of Legends, still have some pretty major problems - in that case, it bugs me that the range of body types for male characters is so much bigger and more varied than those of female characters. At least they have fanservice skins and outfits for some of the male characters as well, I guess...

[Reynard]

Even games that are doing pretty well, like League of Legends, still have some pretty major problems - in that case, it bugs me that the range of body types for male characters is so much bigger and more varied than those of female characters. At least they have fanservice skins and outfits for some of the male characters as well, I guess...

Well, League has a couple of game-engine related reasons for it's exaggerated character design, apart from the cartoony style of the game as a whole. But they've all been discussed to deatha cross the net, and more than a few times in one of the many LoL-Threads on this forums.

However, I think it's silly to say that the male characters have a boarder ranger of body types than the female ones, since they're either built like brick outhouses or...uh... Are a yordle/more monstrous creature. Even squishy mages like Malzahar fit into the upper regions of muscle definition/height/shoulder width.

About the only two male champs in LoL that don't are the redesigned Twisted Fate and the newcomer Thresh, both of which have only just arrived.

[Astrella]

Well, League has a couple of game-engine related reasons for it's exaggerated character design, apart from the cartoony style of the game as a whole. But they've all been discussed to deatha cross the net, and more than a few times in one of the many LoL-Threads on this forums.

However, I think it's silly to say that the male characters have a boarder ranger of body types than the female ones, since they're either built like brick outhouses or...uh... Are a yordle/more monstrous creature. Even squishy mages like Malzahar fit into the upper regions of muscle definition/height/shoulder width.

About the only two male champs in LoL that don't are the redesigned Twisted Fate and the newcomer Thresh, both of which have only just arrived.

Zilean, Ezreal, Gragas, Singed, Swain, Viktor. And all the beefier champions still have a huge range from Xin Zhao to Dr. Mundo, while all female champions barring Annie are basically the same body but dressed up differently with a few minor exceptions. Not to mention that they're basically all the same age. (Also a lot more female champions are needlessly sexualized compared to male champions.)

Also original Twisted Fate had the same build and was one of the original 40.

[Reynard]

The original TF was an equilateral triangle mounted on a pair of legs.

[Castaras]

Far from always.
For example definitely false in all Bethesda games and Bioware Games.

Disagree with this. It's not as bad in Bethesda games, but it's still a pretty big part - big chests, armour clearly made to enhance curves rather than actually be practical, stupid proportions to their bodies.

The one game I can think of that doesn't overly sexualise women off the top of my head is Mount and Blade.

[RPGuru1331]

Well, League has a couple of game-engine related reasons for it's exaggerated character design, apart from the cartoony style of the game as a whole. But they've all been discussed to deatha cross the net, and more than a few times in one of the many LoL-Threads on this forums.
And struck me as CYOAing then too.


About the only two male champs in LoL that don't are the redesigned Twisted Fate and the newcomer Thresh, both of which have only just arrived.

So I heard you hate planes... also Urgot. And really, forgetting the others I can almost get, but Ezreal has a ton of jokes about how he's supposedly feminine for not being a meat mountain.


Disagree with this. It's not as bad in Bethesda games, but it's still a pretty big part - big chests, armour clearly made to enhance curves rather than actually be practical, stupid proportions to their bodies.

It's pretty funny to say about Bioware, too. They did alright with Femshep, yeah, but some of us remember Morrigan, or that Spanish ship captain. It's not as bad as normal, though.

[warty goblin]

Disagree with this. It's not as bad in Bethesda games, but it's still a pretty big part - big chests, armour clearly made to enhance curves rather than actually be practical, stupid proportions to their bodies.

Bethesda do OK for the most part. I recall spending a while running around Oblivion with a female Nord in what amounted to a bikini for a while. That was only a temporary deviation from my usual iron-bedecked self.

I recall fighting a fair number of blue space strippers in Mass Effect though.


The one game I can think of that doesn't overly sexualise women off the top of my head is Mount and Blade.
I always play a woman in M&B. In part because back in beta .645 or whatever they started with a really good horse. Also the different pain grunts make it easier to tell when I'm getting hit.

[Hylleddin]

When there's an option, I play about 90% female characters. Where there isn't an option, I feel kind of awkward playing a male character. Though if there's any romance or flirting, playing female characters usually gets similarly awkward cause most of them are straight. It's nice that lesbian options have started showing up.

[Astrella]

So I heard you hate planes... also Urgot. And really, forgetting the others I can almost get, but Ezreal has a ton of jokes about how he's supposedly feminine for not being a meat mountain.

Ugg, so many "Ezreal is a girl" jokes. :smallmad:

I think Femshep was handled pretty well by Bioware though. It's a big part of the reason I like Mass Effect a lot.

[MLai]

For example definitely false in all Bethesda games and Bioware Games.
I like Bioware games (I have DAO, ME1, ME2). I like Character Creators. Bioware is better than many, but it still falls into the trap.

This is my "chaotic neutral" female dwarf rogue character in DAO:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v52/MiLai/Screenshot20100320113325812a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v52/MiLai/Screenshot20100419225038734SNO.jpg

I absolutely adore Snotra. DAO did an absolutely wonderful job in aiding a role-playing player to realize an internal narrative for their protag-character. However, look at her anti-gravity bazookas. You can see them on the female Companion character too. That's the only female body type option for human and dwarven women.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

And struck me as CYOAing then too.

CYOA?



It's pretty funny to say about Bioware, too. They did alright with Femshep, yeah, but some of us remember Morrigan, or that Spanish ship captain. It's not as bad as normal, though.

Femshep was great in that respect, I think. But then there was also Samara. And EDI.

[RPGuru1331]

CYOA?

Cover your own Arse. That is, that the claims of engine limitations preventing anything from hourglasses are lies to let the designers keep making hourglass figured women.




Femshep was great in that respect, I think. But then there was also Samara. And EDI.
I'm torn in how I present Femshep because it shouldn't be that hard to do, from an equality perspective. On the other hand, the evidence suggests that it just kills game developers to actually do it.

[Acanous]

CYOA?




Femshep was great in that respect, I think. But then there was also Samara. And EDI.

The Asari as a race get a pass because they were modified by an ancient race of super-bio-engineers to be, effectively, sex slaves (Maybe not by codex, but it's heavilly implied).

There used to be male asari. They were engineered out.

That goes from "Fanservice race" to "Horrible atrocity" pretty quick.

EDI was an infiltration robot who could modify her own proportions. No idea why she decided to go that route, except maybe she was used to seeing that body type in Jeff's files :p

[RPGuru1331]

The Asari as a race get a pass because they were modified by an ancient race of super-bio-engineers to be, effectively, sex slaves (Maybe not by codex, but it's heavilly implied).

There used to be male asari. They were engineered out.

That goes from "Fanservice race" to "Horrible atrocity" pretty quick.
Yeah, a race of sex slaves is totally 'pass' material right there, and it most certainly makes all the fanservice retroactively not happen.

[warty goblin]

The Asari as a race get a pass because they were modified by an ancient race of super-bio-engineers to be, effectively, sex slaves (Maybe not by codex, but it's heavilly implied).

There used to be male asari. They were engineered out.

That goes from "Fanservice race" to "Horrible atrocity" pretty quick.

No, that ends up at fanservice race shoddily justified by horrible atrocity.

This is one of those things that should be easy: attaching an imaginary in-universe justification to something offensive doesn't make it any less offensive.

To hit a bit below the belt: I could write a story in which videogames turn out to be secret mind-control devices created by an evil demon named EsReb. Once a sufficiently large portion of Earth's population plays games, the Omega Code will activate, rendering all gamers mind-slaves to EsReb, who sends them out to commit mass murder against all non-players in a bid to conquer the world.

The fact that I have an in-universe justification for portraying as gamers as blood crazed mindless zombies wandering around shooting little old ladies doesn't make this less offensive. It means I've attached a meaningless bit of made-up piffle to justify an offensive, derogatory and false stereotype.

But by your logic there's nothing to be offended by. After all the mental subjugation of a large portion of the world's population clearly bumps this from Fox News wetdream into atrocity, right?

(And I'm not even touching the odd, yet undying notion that the female body is some sort of exclusive universal carrier of sexiness inherent in your 'justification'.)



This has been your White Knighting for the day. Now excuse me, these snow-colored unicorn steeds don't muck out their own stables you know.

[Illven]

To hit a bit below the belt: I could write a story in which videogames turn out to be secret mind-control devices created by an evil demon named EsReb. Once a sufficiently large portion of Earth's population plays games, the Omega Code will activate, rendering all gamers mind-slaves to EsReb, who sends them out to commit mass murder against all non-players in a bid to conquer the world.

The fact that I have an in-universe justification for portraying as gamers as blood crazed mindless zombies wandering around shooting little old ladies doesn't make this less offensive. It means I've attached a meaningless bit of made-up piffle to justify an offensive, derogatory and false stereotype.

But by your logic there's nothing to be offended by. After all the mental subjugation of a large portion of the world's population clearly bumps this from Fox News wetdream into atrocity, right?


This didn't offend me.... In fact I laughed a little.

[RPGuru1331]

(And I'm not even touching the odd, yet undying notion that the female body is some sort of exclusive universal carrier of sexiness inherent in your 'justification'.)
One would indeed expect a female bio-engineer to want a bang.

The really funny thing is the idea that making them sex slaves is somehow LESS fanservicey. The evidence strongly suggests that this falls under an irritatingly high number of dudes' fantasies (semi-relatedly, wannabe dominant men on The A(n)nals of Online Dating are hilarious).


This didn't offend me.... In fact I laughed a little.

I wasn't going to say anything, but the primary problem with your example, Warty Goblin, is that gamers face precious few problems. It'd be extraordinarily difficult to be offended over being a gamer, because being a gamer isn't much of a negative. It weakens the example somewhat.

[warty goblin]

One would indeed expect a female bio-engineer to want a bang.

The really funny thing is the idea that making them sex slaves is somehow LESS fanservicey. The evidence strongly suggests that this falls under an irritatingly high number of dudes' fantasies (semi-relatedly, wannabe dominant men on The A(n)nals of Online Dating are hilarious).

Or why exactly long-extinct species mysteriously conform to modern middle-class human male notions of what's attractive. It's like a T-Rex looking a Victoria's Secret model and going 'aww yeeahh.'



I wasn't going to say anything, but the primary problem with your example, Warty Goblin, is that gamers face precious few problems. It'd be extraordinarily difficult to be offended over being a gamer, because being a gamer isn't much of a negative. It weakens the example somewhat.
It's not a great example I agree. It was however about the only thing I could think of that might hit somewhere close to home for your standard gamer. Given the crazed teeth-gnashing that ensues every time anybody does suggest a link between violence and games, I thought it might have some currency. Apparently I was wrong.

It was also deliberately a bit ridiculous. Rather like making up a race of genetic engineers hell-bent on coming up with blue space babes for nerds to ogle, actually.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Cover your own Arse. That is, that the claims of engine limitations preventing anything from hourglasses are lies to let the designers keep making hourglass figured women.

Thanks. My best guess was Choose Your Own Adventure, which wasn't making any sense :smallbiggrin: And yes, largely agree there.

[MLai]

Making Blue Space Babe sex-slave species wouldn't be as blatant if there were also Blue Space Gigolos as their counterparts, but as you describe they're "bio-engineered out"?

If an Ancient Ones species found humanoid Space Babes sexually enticing, then that means the Ancients were also sexually dimorphic humanoids, which means there were female humanoid Ancients... So why didn't they protest when all the Mr. Ancients got their own species of hot slaves, but the Mrs. Ancients never got any strapping blue gigolos? :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

Bethesda do OK for the most part. I recall spending a while running around Oblivion with a female Nord in what amounted to a bikini for a while. That was only a temporary deviation from my usual iron-bedecked self.

I recall fighting a fair number of blue space strippers in Mass Effect though.

The only thing Bethesda does wrong is the absence of truly muscular women. But how common are they IRL? The biggest female soldiers tend to be looking like Vasques IRL, not like body builders. The armor is not more revealing on females than males, at least not in the newer (Oblivion, FO3, Skyrim). Yes, they are slightly curvier than IRL, but they are not sexualized (the fur armor model that is like a bikini top on women is just a fur kilt on men, no chest cover at all).

As for the second point:

First of all those are not player avatars which is what we are talking about. The player avatar in the ME games is after all Fem!Shep and yes, I find her very sexy (thank you, Hale!) but she sure isn't sexualized. The armor is full cover and realistic (well as realistic as SF armor can be).

Second: Bioware used the Green Skinned Space Babe trope, and subverted it on many occasions. Yes, they can mate with every other species in the galaxy. Yes, they are all beautiful. Yes they are all "female". Yes some of them are exotic dancers.
(Btw I seem to have missed the whole bioengineered sex slave thing. Where did you find that out in ME3?)

(Btw it is nice to see far more interspecies couples in ME3; it is like Shep says, hooking up is one of the few things you can do while waiting for the war to reach you... On the citadel we see at least one Salarian / Human couple for example. And when treated with respect even Vorcha can be polite... (And if you have played the Omega addon you at one point see a Vorcha soldier helping a badly wounded Asari soldier to limp to safety. I don't know if that's his bondmate or "just" his comrade in arms, but it is nice to see).

As for Bioware in general: I think that the most ridiculous armor I have ever seen in a Bioware game was Irileth's armor in Neverwinter Nights. In both Baldur's Gate series and in Dragon Age plate is plate. Big. Bulky. Shiny. The leather in DA:O is... low cut but not horrible, and that is the worst one they have. In DA2 the leather is well done.

Edit: as for body shapes... I guess, again, that the Sims 3 is the best game out there at the moment. However... I also think that the idea that an hourglass figure is somehow bad (and to be fair, the body model used in the ME games is too thin to truly be an hourglass figure) is a little odd since where I come from many women WANTS media to portray women with an hour glass figure since unfortunately most media do the "fashion model thin" thing. Yes, it would be nice to change body type in general, but I understand that a game such like ME or DA has limitations compared to say Sims because they are so much more realistic looking. Besides, a heavily obese Shep could be fun for... two minutes.

[Aiani]

I usually play female characters. I just feel more connected to my female characters but every once in a while I play a man just for a change of pace I guess. I do get tired of silly armor on female characters. All my female characters in WoW wear shirts under their armor because of the ridiculous stripper armor they have sometimes ended up wearing.

Also random note, the bounce animation that female night elves do from time to time really gets on my nerves especially since my main is a night elf. My husband laughs every time he sees it and then says he can't believe someone actually programmed that into a game.

[MLai]

My husband laughs every time he sees it and then says he can't believe someone actually programmed that into a game.
Someone is ignorant of Tecmo physics, it seems.

[Aiani]

Someone is ignorant of Tecmo physics, it seems.

I realize Blizzard wasn't the first to program something silly like that into a game but that doesn't make it any less silly.

[Remmirath]

To start on a brighter sort of note, while still having some notable armour issues, Guild Wars 2 is better about that than was Guild Wars. I only found two suits of armour in the entire game in Guild Wars that I didn't find completely ridiculous, but I've been able to consistently keep my character in something not-completely-ridiculous in Guild Wars 2.


I think Femshep was handled pretty well by Bioware though. It's a big part of the reason I like Mass Effect a lot.

Pretty well, but it bothered me that she doesn't look at all strong whereas the male character does. If neither did, I'd just accept that in that future soldiers no longer have to be strong and move on, but the discrepancy bothers me. Still, over all, I agree that she was decently handled in that respect.


I like Bioware games (I have DAO, ME1, ME2). I like Character Creators. Bioware is better than many, but it still falls into the trap.


Indeed. The armour differences in DA:O are mostly not too bad, particularly with the massive armours, but in some places they are annoying. DA II I believe was better about the armour differences, but worse about everything else. I was particularly bothered by the only option for character voice being so soft and insubstantial (argh, I'm sure that's not the proper way to describe it -- hopefully it's obvious what I mean?), since that wasn't at all the sort of character I wanted to play, and ended up playing a male character that time though it hadn't been my original intention.

Although, that's one of the many problems with having a voiced character in general, so I'll not get off track about that. I'll just say that if you must have a voiced character, a more neutral voice is better. As an aside, in the interest of a different perspective, the male voice in that game bothered my brother just as much as the female voice bothered me. If one could've reversed the speaking style/mannerisms of them, we would both have been happy enough.

Also in DA II (and to some extent Mass Effect 2): the running and walking animations. I recall that Mass Effect, though it's been a while since I played it, didn't have the same problem.


The only thing Bethesda does wrong is the absence of truly muscular women. But how common are they IRL? The biggest female soldiers tend to be looking like Vasques IRL, not like body builders. The armor is not more revealing on females than males, at least not in the newer (Oblivion, FO3, Skyrim). Yes, they are slightly curvier than IRL, but they are not sexualized (the fur armor model that is like a bikini top on women is just a fur kilt on men, no chest cover at all).

Yeah, that's mostly the only problem. There are some armours where the breasplate is sculpted rather differently on the female than on the male, and that does honestly annoy me, but not as much as having pieces of armour missing, and that's only a problem on a few suits (obsidian and orcish pimarily, I believe).

In Morrowind I recall it took me quite some time to figure out that the guards wandering about in Ald'ruhn wearing the skirts were female (I thought it was just a random variation). As far as I can remember, the rest of the non-Bonemold armour was also fairly good about it.

However, I contend that the male and female characters ought to both look strong or both look weak. Often the female characters in games look obviously weaker than me, and while I would say I'm not weak, I would also say I'd expect your average hero type to be stronger than me. I don't mind if they don't look quite as muscular as the male character, but they should look strong -- and in fact I'd prefer if they both looked just strong as opposed to like a bodybuilder, because as you say really most soldiers and fighting types of either sex don't look like that.


As for Bioware in general: I think that the most ridiculous armor I have ever seen in a Bioware game was Irileth's armor in Neverwinter Nights. In both Baldur's Gate series and in Dragon Age plate is plate. Big. Bulky. Shiny. The leather in DA:O is... low cut but not horrible, and that is the worst one they have. In DA2 the leather is well done.


Yes, Aribeth's armour was ridiculous. It may be part of the reason that Aribeth annoys me in general.

I must say that the plate armour, and in fact all armour, did change a fairly large amount on the inventory screen and a lesser amount on the ingame models in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale. Small enough that it doesn't matter all that, especially since the main thing to be showing your character's appearance is the portrait, but it wasn't the same.


First of all those are not player avatars which is what we are talking about. The player avatar in the ME games is after all Fem!Shep and yes, I find her very sexy (thank you, Hale!) but she sure isn't sexualized. The armor is full cover and realistic (well as realistic as SF armor can be).

I'd say that player avatars and player characters are quite a different thing, and while unfortunately Mass Effect often edges more towards avatar than character it still falls into the character range.

Player avatars I'd count as the skin you choose in Unreal Tournament or Counter-Strike or the like, and unfortunately most of those games (when they have female options at all) tend to have them in pretty ridiculous armour.


Edit: as for body shapes... I guess, again, that the Sims 3 is the best game out there at the moment. However... I also think that the idea that an hourglass figure is somehow bad (and to be fair, the body model used in the ME games is too thin to truly be an hourglass figure) is a little odd since where I come from many women WANTS media to portray women with an hour glass figure since unfortunately most media do the "fashion model thin" thing. Yes, it would be nice to change body type in general, but I understand that a game such like ME or DA has limitations compared to say Sims because they are so much more realistic looking. Besides, a heavily obese Shep could be fun for... two minutes.

I don't think the hourglass figure is a bad thing, necessarily, or certainly not all of the time. What I at least would like to see, however, is to have the same or analogous body shape between male and female characters (particularly in a game like ME where it's supposedly the same person with the same background either way). If the male character is built like a strong soldier, so should the female character be; alternately (but to me less preferred), if the female character is built like a normal person or actress or what have you, so should the male character be.

Being able to choose at least between two options would be best, of course.

[Brother Oni]

Pretty well, but it bothered me that she doesn't look at all strong whereas the male character does. If neither did, I'd just accept that in that future soldiers no longer have to be strong and move on, but the discrepancy bothers me. Still, over all, I agree that she was decently handled in that respect.

Actually with the exception of particular service arms, soldiers tend to be fit and toned rather than big.

Somebody mentioned Vasquez from Aliens* earlier:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FSApyJg5CyQ/T3xQEjtabFI/AAAAAAAABAI/QpF3R9BHii0/s1600/aliens+vasquez.jpg

Note that Vasquez is her squad's SAW operator, a role usually reserved for the bigger and stronger individuals. Even Drake, her counterpart in the other squad isn't that big, certainly not on Terraoblivion's 'overmuscled body builder' scale.

With recent events, we'll probably be seeing females in frontline combat roles and MOSs so we're going to have a better idea of what build female Shepard would actually have.

*She's the one on the left, in case you're mistaking her for a man.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I remember finding it hard to play a male character in Neverwinter Nights when even as a bard or a mage my upper arms were wider than the women's waists.

Some games with a gender option you can flip the choice back and forth during character creation and imagine the woman fitting inside the man's stomach if she curled up. The exaggeration there just feels ridiculous.

I couldn't play Arkham Asylum because Batman's character design was so off putting. Its not like Batman hasn't been drawn by hundreds of artists so don't tell me 'Batman looks like that' because he doesn't always. Recent Batman stories usually imply his costume is armoured so the painted on look really makes no sense.

I can accept that a skinny guy like me wouldn't be that great at saving the world, but the female character models don't care about that so being forced to be ridiculously huge makes no sense.

Mass Effect's armours all have ridiculous form fitting breast plates. If you can make out boobs on a suit of armour its gratuitous. It might make sense if its ceremonial or decorative armour, there are breast plates for men with nipples on them after all, but it isn't practical at all. The padding and under-armour for a breastplate would flatten the shape of the body so no matter how shapely the breastplate it can't actually be form fitting.

[Acanous]

I remember finding it hard to play a male character in Neverwinter Nights when even as a bard or a mage my upper arms were wider than the women's waists.

Some games with a gender option you can flip the choice back and forth during character creation and imagine the woman fitting inside the man's stomach if she curled up. The exaggeration there just feels ridiculous.

I couldn't play Arkham Asylum because Batman's character design was so off putting. Its not like Batman hasn't been drawn by hundreds of artists so don't tell me 'Batman looks like that' because he doesn't always. Recent Batman stories usually imply his costume is armoured so the painted on look really makes no sense.

I can accept that a skinny guy like me wouldn't be that great at saving the world, but the female character models don't care about that so being forced to be ridiculously huge makes no sense.

Mass Effect's armours all have ridiculous form fitting breast plates. If you can make out boobs on a suit of armour its gratuitous. It might make sense if its ceremonial or decorative armour, there are breast plates for men with nipples on them after all, but it isn't practical at all. The padding and under-armour for a breastplate would flatten the shape of the body so no matter how shapely the breastplate it can't actually be form fitting.

To be fair, the armor in Mass Effect is really just environmental hazard suits. The real protection comes from the shielding system, because the bullets are smaller than sand, and move at relativistic speeds.

At least in ME1, anyhow.

[warty goblin]

Mass Effect's armours all have ridiculous form fitting breast plates. If you can make out boobs on a suit of armour its gratuitous. It might make sense if its ceremonial or decorative armour, there are breast plates for men with nipples on them after all, but it isn't practical at all. The padding and under-armour for a breastplate would flatten the shape of the body so no matter how shapely the breastplate it can't actually be form fitting.

Indeed. For your more medieval armors, by the time you strap on all the padding, and then a pile of steel shaped to turn points, there just isn't that much cleavage left (http://www.southtower.on.ca/armour/index.html).

Something Mount & Blade gets right. Probably by dint of not having separate meshes for male and female armors.

For more modern sensible female body armor, the Rainbow 6: Vegas series hits the nail on the head to the best of my knowledge. Plus it's still just about the best cover shooter ever made, so there's that.

[Avilan the Grey]

To be fair, the armor in Mass Effect is really just environmental hazard suits. The real protection comes from the shielding system, because the bullets are smaller than sand, and move at relativistic speeds.

At least in ME1, anyhow.

You are definitely correct; the armor is not built for stopping bigger things, so it doesn't have to be bulky (the "padding" is the forcefield on the outside of it). And it is just as form-fitting on males as females. In that respect it reminds me of the Chinese Stealth Armor from Fallout 3.

Also, in ME2 and 3, the heavier breast plate variants have no "boob valley".


Actually with the exception of particular service arms, soldiers tend to be fit and toned rather than big.

Somebody mentioned Vasquez from Aliens* earlier:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FSApyJg5CyQ/T3xQEjtabFI/AAAAAAAABAI/QpF3R9BHii0/s1600/aliens+vasquez.jpg

Note that Vasquez is her squad's SAW operator, a role usually reserved for the bigger and stronger individuals. Even Drake, her counterpart in the other squad isn't that big, certainly not on Terraoblivion's 'overmuscled body builder' scale.

Exactly. Incidentally, she is about as muscled as the heaviest built females in Skyrim. (unfortunately they use the same slider for boob size, so if you have arms like that you also have D-cups. Also, please note that the stance of the character changes past 65(? not sure, maybe it's 70)% bulk in Skyrim; a female with that much muscle will use the male walking pattern.