Theurge question

[Seer_of_Heart]

Would this work as a fix for the mystic theurge? Make it essentially a gestalt between 2 classes, you get all the class features you combine class skills, and you get the better BAB and hit die. Or would that be too powerful?

[Newoblivion]

I think that the best way to do it if you combine two none caster class is that the BAB should be 3/4 and one good save. If its two casters then it only combine spells and BAB is 1/2 and Will is strong.

[Deepbluediver]

First, start by answering the question: what about the Mystic Theurge are you trying to fix? Or what sort of end result are you aiming for?

Once you tell us that, we can evaluate how your suggestion fits.

[Seer_of_Heart]

What I'm aiming for is to make taking levels in mystic theurge worth it for more builds than just bard/ur priest/sublime chord/mystic theurge. I want to make it worthwhile for non fast casting classes to take levels in it. Because mystic theurge is considered very weak.

[8wGremlin]

Discussing something similar here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268447

Sha'ir 3, Mystic Thurge 3 would give you spell casting as a 9th level Sha'ir.
As Sha'ir counts as both divine and arcane

Sha'ir can be found in dragon magazine compendium

[Deepbluediver]

What I'm aiming for is to make taking levels in mystic theurge worth it for more builds than just bard/ur priest/sublime chord/mystic theurge. I want to make it worthwhile for non fast casting classes to take levels in it. Because mystic theurge is considered very weak.

Hmm...

I'm not an expert with the class by any means, but to my knowledge the biggest problem with the Theurge is that having more spells available does not really compensate for being 3 or 4 levels behind a single-type caster.

The reasons for this are that most characters start running out of other resources (HP, daily use abilities, spells, etc) before you do, dictating a halt for rest anyway, and because all spells pretty much require the same type of action, both the theurge and another caster can cast 4-5 spells in an encounter, but the other caster's spells will be more powerful.

The pathfinder version of the Mystic Theurge gets an ability at level 10 called Spell Synthesis which let's him cast two spells (one of each type) with a single action. If the theurge has access to that earlier on, it might make the class more attractive so you didn't have to suffer through 9 levels of "meh".

The other thing is that Theurge's schtick is that he sacrifices all the class features to get nothing BUT spells, which admittadly are pretty versatile. But not good enough to make up for the casting deficiet.

Straight up gestalting two classes though is probably a bit much, even to compensate for the spell-level loss. Plus, depending on which classes you have going in the benefit can be either huge or very slim.


Here's what I would recomend:

First, change the prerequisites to read "Three levels of an arcane-casting class, and three levels of a divine casting class."
(plus knowledge skills, if you want, etc)

This lets you use non-primary casters easier, since you go by class level instead of spell level. some day I want to Mystic Theurge a pally and a wizard just for gits and shiggles

Next, give the Theurge Spell Synthesis starting at first level a certain number of times per day.
And finally, boost his spellcasting to eventually catch up to his full-casting partners.

So your final Theurge looks something like this-

{table=head]Level|Special|Casting

1st|Spell Synthesis 3/day|+1 arcane/+1 divine

2nd|SS 4/day|+1 arcane/+1 divine

3rd|SS 5/day|+2 arcane/+2 divine

4th|SS 6/day|+1 arcane/+1 divine

5th|SS 7/day|+1 arcane/+1 divine

6th|SS 8/day|+2 arcane/+2 divine

7th|SS 9/day|+1 arcane/+1 divine

8th|SS 10/day|+1 arcane/+1 divine

9th|SS 11/day|+2 arcane/+2 divine

10th|SS at will|+1 arcane/+1 divine[/table]

That is probably something more people would consider taking. The prerequisite level are still kind of annoying, I admit, but the difference in casting power is less severe early on and the payoff is better.

P.S. I'm breaking my own rule about posting late at night when I'm tired (because usually it ends badly)'
I'll come back tomorrow and take another look at what I wrote, and see if I don't feel differently when my eyeballs aren't feeling so fuzzy.

[Gildedragon]

Problem with needing a 3rd level caster is that you eliminate the early-access methods.

Caster Level 3, on the other hand, makes entering the class easier.

Instead of spell synthesis one could merge the spell-slots, allowing more preparation of key spells.

[Deepbluediver]

Problem with needing a 3rd level caster is that you eliminate the early-access methods.

That was intentional.

To my knowledge, most of the early-entry methords where specifically to deal with the fact that the normal method was too weak. I was hoping to make up for that with my suggestion, but if think the MT still falls behind then let me know how and I'll tackle that next.


Instead of spell synthesis one could merge the spell-slots, allowing more preparation of key spells.

I assume you mean something like sacrificing two 1st level spell slots to gain an extra 2nd level spell slot? If you where going to do that why not just stay as a single-class caster?
The point of Spell Synthesis is that it's a unique ability and gets both the divine and arcane flavor in one shot, provided the player is smart enough to use it well.

[Arcanist]

Honestly, the only change that would be necessary to the Mystic Theurge in my eyes would be making it so that you can get into the class at level 2 requiring


1st level Divine
1st level Arcane
5 ranks in Knowledge Arcane & Religion


adding in class feature progression would just be gravy, but isn't necessary really

Makes Early entry fairly moot and makes the class a much stronger option overall... Experience tells me that in a Core only 1-20 game that Cleric3 / Wizard3 / Mystic Theurge10 / Archmage5 (or Cleric +5) works just fine if your into that sort of thing.

[Deepbluediver]

Meant to get back to this sooner, but been busy with my own homebrew.


Honestly, the only change that would be necessary to the Mystic Theurge in my eyes would be making it so that you can get into the class at level 2 requiring


1st level Divine
1st level Arcane
5 ranks in Knowledge Arcane & Religion


adding in class feature progression would just be gravy, but isn't necessary really

Makes Early entry fairly moot and makes the class a much stronger option overall... Experience tells me that in a Core only 1-20 game that Cleric3 / Wizard3 / Mystic Theurge10 / Archmage5 (or Cleric +5) works just fine if your into that sort of thing.

So really what you mean is you can get into the class starting at level 3. I admit this would work perfectly well for a low-level game (a few uses of Spell Synthesis would still be a nice addition, I think).

The only issue would be that if the campaign continued past level 12, you'd run out of Mystic Theurge levels to take. Plus, entering into a PrC at level 3 doesn't exactly sound very prestigious. Maybe there should be variable options depending on where you start a campaign and how long you are planning for it to run.

Frankly, I'd be willing to split the difference and say you just needed 2 levels of each of the arcane and divine caster, so you could start the class at level 5.