Dealing with the T1 classes

[DMVerdandi]

Well, there seems to be quite a few threads on how OP the wizard is, but aren't we missing the forest for the trees? What about the other T1 classes? Do they not also offend?

Clerics take almost NO difficulty to play, and with the right choices can blow many wizards out of the water.

Druids with the choice of one feat casts in forms far superior to their own, and is a full caster with an animal companion that breaks action economy from the jump.

Archivists can learn nearly every spell in the game.

Erudites can learn every power.

And artificers...Oohwee.



Many people have the idea to simply ban core, but a couple of those aren't core at all. My suggestion is to simply replace those classes with their lower tiered counterparts.



1. Wizard<Sorcerer.
This change allows for arcane spells to be cast without that wide-arching variety that they usually have. There is no longer that capacity to sleep to solve a problem. It does require more system mastery in a way, but c'est la vie.

2.Cleric<Favored soul/Cloistered Cleric.
There is much to be gained from changing the cleric permanently into the cloistered cleric variant or even better into the favored soul.

For the cloistered cleric, it loses a lot of those proficiencies for weapons and armor, and becomes a lot less of a juggernaut, and has to become more careful in combat. The favored soul changes the cleric casting mechanics to a spontaneous casting mechanic which helps tremendously.


3. Druid< Spirit Shaman
Wild Shape being taken out does a huge deed, and it still allows for the druid list to be cast on, and the theme of a natural magic user.

4. Archivist and Erudite.
As far as the archivist goes, Learning every divine spell in the game puts it at a considerable power level. Restricting them to the cleric list, nerfs them pretty well. And for the Erudite, spell to power is their main problem, if one could call them that.

STP erudite in a way can replace the wizard fairly decently. The problem is it's Unique powers per day. Enforce that they are not Per level per day, and give them bonus UPPD with feats, and they become fine.


5. Artificer
toss it out. It's too friggin sweet.

Other alternatives are to toss out all other arcane and divine classes for Healer and Warmage. With that spellcasting with utility diminishes greatly.

In effect. Codzilla getting you down? Can't deal with wizards? Ban them. Fun can be had with alternatives that have some control. Are they still going to be powerful as heck, but the variety dies down some.

A game with sorcerer, favored soul, and spirit shaman as it's primary casters tames the game by quite a bit.

[Sacrieur]

Clerics take almost NO difficulty to play, and with the right choices can blow many wizards out of the water.

I don't know how true this is RAW, but we have a house rule that clerics don't need to prepare spells and can just cast any spell on the list.

It pretty much makes clerics the most OP characters ever.

It's fortunate I don't take a advantage of it :o

[Daftendirekt]

I don't know how true this is RAW, but we have a house rule that clerics don't need to prepare spells and can just cast any spell on the list.

It pretty much makes clerics the most OP characters ever.

It's fortunate I don't take a advantage of it :o

...Why on earth would you houserule that? That complete obviates the Favoured Soul, except moreso because cleric can WEAR FULL PLATE. And its casting is only based off of one stat, not two.

[Sacrieur]

Because the people who GM aren't very good at optimization.

They laugh at me when I play a wizard, and think CW samurai is a good class.

[DMVerdandi]

I don't know how true this is RAW, but we have a house rule that clerics don't need to prepare spells and can just cast any spell on the list.

It pretty much makes clerics the most OP characters ever.

It's fortunate I don't take a advantage of it :o

Clerics with warmage mechanics?
WHAT KIND OF ELDRITCH HORRORS HAVE YOU UNLEASHED ON THE WORLD??? :smallfurious:

As far as mechanics go?
I would say that the best belongs to Spirit shaman. Prepared Spontaneous Casting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A good DM deals with the T1's the same way he deals with any class. Know it's strengths, know it's weaknesses, and apply that knowledge judiciously. Note that it's usually best to simply ask the player to tone it down before exploiting his class's weaknesses.

If a wizard or archivist is causing problems take his book and don't give him enough downtime to completely replace it. Give him a week or so to get a decent repetoire then push the next adventure on him.

Artificers need down-time or a dedicated wright, deny them either of these things and they're basically a UMD rogue with a few magical tricks. They're also completely reliant on items which can be stolen, sundered, or disjoined and have lower than average caster levels to resist being suppressed by dispelling effects.

Druid and Cleric are powered by faith. Demand that they live up to the RP requirements the class is supposed to have. A druid that picks a mercenary job over a save the forest job because the former pays better gets a warning from nature in his animal companion leaving or his spontaneous ally summoning fizzling, maybe even a partial denial of spell access. A cleric that doesn't live up to the standards of his god faces the same kind of interference. Cause clerics must nearly always be advancing that cause to maintain power.

For erudite, simply disallow the STP variant altogether and realize that he's not significantly better than any other psion after the first encounter of the day and that by the end of the day he's comparable to a wilder without wild surge.

If a player says its not fair to target their class's weakness then tell them "fine, but you're not allowed to target the monsters' weaknesses anymore."

[Story]

2.Cleric<Favored soul/Cloistered Cleric.
There is much to be gained from changing the cleric permanently into the cloistered cleric variant or even better into the favored soul.


Cloistered Cleric is just as good, if not better than the regular kind.

[Deca4531]

when i DM a game i tell my players "no T1 stuff" they know im not telling them not to play those classes, just dont break them.

i think a good DM should review all his players characters and have them power down or suggest improvements to balance out the party's power

[DMVerdandi]

A good DM deals with the T1's the same way he deals with any class. Know it's strengths, know it's weaknesses, and apply that knowledge judiciously. Note that it's usually best to simply ask the player to tone it down before exploiting his class's weaknesses.

If a wizard or archivist is causing problems take his book and don't give him enough downtime to completely replace it. Give him a week or so to get a decent repetoire then push the next adventure on him.

Artificers need down-time or a dedicated wright, deny them either of these things and they're basically a UMD rogue with a few magical tricks. They're also completely reliant on items which can be stolen, sundered, or disjoined and have lower than average caster levels to resist being suppressed by dispelling effects.

Druid and Cleric are powered by faith. Demand that they live up to the RP requirements the class is supposed to have. A druid that picks a mercenary job over a save the forest job because the former pays better gets a warning from nature in his animal companion leaving or his spontaneous ally summoning fizzling, maybe even a partial denial of spell access. A cleric that doesn't live up to the standards of his god faces the same kind of interference. Cause clerics must nearly always be advancing that cause to maintain power.

For erudite, simply disallow the STP variant altogether and realize that he's not significantly better than any other psion after the first encounter of the day and that by the end of the day he's comparable to a wilder without wild surge.

If a player says its not fair to target their class's weakness then tell them "fine, but you're not allowed to target the monsters' weaknesses anymore."
Eh... I don't care for that type of DM'ing.
Taking away a choice is one thing, but enforcing roleplaying as mechanics is something completely different. On the divine caster thing, one could argue that those connections are personal and as permanent as they need to be.

And for the book-keepers, who is to say they don't have 30 of the same books somewhere else? Secret page makes it really easy. Plus, without those resources, the wizard is little more than a commoner.

If someone is going too far personally, I would talk to them rather than punish them in game. Because if the person becomes a weakness for the party, EVERYONE suffers.

Replacing the T1 classes isn't just for ease of DMing, It also increases the speed of play, the teamwork is increased because of co-dependence, and decreases the Inherent hyper-flexibility that the T1 classes have.




Cloistered Cleric is just as good, if not better than the regular kind.
Eh... In some ways it is better, but that hit it takes to it's HD is pretty big. Add to the point that they aren't proficient in much, and don't have medium BAB, and the understanding that they make some decent sacrifices are apparent.



when i DM a game i tell my players "no T1 stuff" they know im not telling them not to play those classes, just dont break them.

i think a good DM should review all his players characters and have them power down or suggest improvements to balance out the party's power
True.
I am not saying that T1 classes can't be played in moderation. That isn't true.
I just mean that by replacing them with their thematic T2 counterparts, much of the strife associated with them disappears instantly.

It's mostly a quick fix thread. There are larger issues at hand, but doing it without much difficulty is as easy as swapping them out with less powerful replacements. The game is still playable, and casters are still enjoyable

[Jack_Simth]

Eh... In some ways it is better, but that hit it takes to it's HD is pretty big. Add to the point that they aren't proficient in much, and don't have medium BAB, and the understanding that they make some decent sacrifices are apparent.

The Cloistered Cleric Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) drops the hit dice from a d8 to a d6; that's an average of one hp/level (two at first), which is not all that much of itself (it'll usually be less than a single hit from an opponent within two CR of your level). Medium to poor base attack bonus is a matter of a one point hit to attack every four levels; Divine Power is online at 7th level, which is about the point at which you're two points of BAB behind. After that, it barely matters at all. The weapon proficiencies are the same, but yes, the lack of heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency is a mild setback. Of course, that really just encourages use of bracers of armor and a Monk's Belt.

Considering the biggest benefit of a Cleric is the spells, which is improved a little by the Cloistered Cleric variant (extra domain and a few extra spells added to their list), it's... not really a nerf. Oh yes, and I find skill points are tasty, as is Lore.

[DMVerdandi]

The Cloistered Cleric Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) drops the hit dice from a d8 to a d6; that's an average of one hp/level (two at first), which is not all that much of itself (it'll usually be less than a single hit from an opponent within two CR of your level). Medium to poor base attack bonus is a matter of a one point hit to attack every four levels; Divine Power is online at 7th level, which is about the point at which you're two points of BAB behind. After that, it barely matters at all. The weapon proficiencies are the same, but yes, the lack of heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency is a mild setback. Of course, that really just encourages use of bracers of armor and a Monk's Belt.

Considering the biggest benefit of a Cleric is the spells, which is improved a little by the Cloistered Cleric variant (extra domain and a few extra spells added to their list), it's... not really a nerf. Oh yes, and I find skill points are tasty, as is Lore.

I see where you are coming from.
However, all of those things like divine power use and purchase of all of these things all have a cost. It is minimal yes, but a cost none the less.
Perhaps removing cloistered cleric from the list is better...

[Kelb_Panthera]

@verdandi:

Secret page makes no note about bypassing the normal restrictions for spellbooks. Since there's more to the writing in a spellbook than just the way the formulae are layed out (why do you think it's 100gp worth of magic ink per page) secret page can't copy a spellbook. Beyond illegal shenanigans like that, a wizard doesn't have 30 spellbooks because it's too expensive and takes too much time. It'd take the better part of a decade to scribe that many spells.

In the case of clerics that serve gods, they have to remain in those gods favor. Just having a connection isn't, and shouldn't be, enough. If it was there'd be no reason for the class to have an ex-cleric section. Same goes for druid and his connection to nature. An idea cleric is someone who has so much faith in his idea that he bypasses the normal go-between from divine magic source to mortal wielder; the gods. If that idea wasn't the dominant motivation behind most of his actions then how can he have so much faith in it that it grants him power. Enforcing the RP restrictions that are built into the class may not be popular, but it -is- fair, since the book tells you going in that it's a possibility.

You have to take a class's weaknesses if you want its strengths. Saying it's not fair for the DM to actually use the weaknesses baked right into the class is just whining.

Do note that I did advise simply asking the overpowered T1's player to tone it down -before- actually knocking his power down a peg. I'll also add that it's probably best to actually mention to the player, at character creation, that you're enforcing the RP restrictions on divine casters and that you'll steal the spellbook if you feel it's what's best for the game, giving him the opportunity to change his mind if he doesn't want to deal with that.

[Flickerdart]

"Cleric, your god doesn't want you to be too effective" can be a little hard to justify sometimes.

[Story]

Eh... In some ways it is better, but that hit it takes to it's HD is pretty big. Add to the point that they aren't proficient in much, and don't have medium BAB, and the understanding that they make some decent sacrifices are apparent.


You think making them more like a Wizard is a nerf? Oh no, it's slightly harder to outfight the Fighter if I ever feel like doing that.


and that you'll steal the spellbook if you feel it's what's best for the game, giving him the opportunity to change his mind if he doesn't want to deal with that.

Or an opportunity to go Eidetic Spellcaster?

[Kelb_Panthera]

"Cleric, your god doesn't want you to be too effective" can be a little hard to justify sometimes.

That's a matter of not being an asshat of a DM.

Example of good use: A cleric of Olidamara is challenged to a duel. He shows up at the appointed time, in the appointed place and fights a clean, fair fight. That night he gets a visionary dream from his god expressing disappointment in him for acting so lawfully and warns him that he shouldn't make a habit of such things. In the morning after spell-prep he discovers that his turn undead ability didn't fully recharge or that his luck domain granted power won't function for the day, not in an "aha! gotcha" way in the middle of combat but simply as something he's aware of immediately.

Bad example: same scenario, but Olidamra takes extreme exception to his follower acting so lawful and denies him spells during the duel. Should the cleric survive he's also required to go on an atonement quest with what amounts to his level in unmodified humanoid HD, since he can't prepare spells until after.

In either case, had the cleric employed some sort of trickery, any at all really, then his god would continue to smile on him and the game continues normally.

All the gods have personalities and dogmas layed out for people on both sides of the screen in several sources, notably completes divine and champion, which are both very popular. There's no reason a cleric of a god shouldn't be held to these. Cause clerics have to be held to a standard as well, to be fair, but since they're not using a middle-man like orthodox clerics they should be held to a stricter standard, IMO.

@Story:

Eidetic spellcaster is from an issue of dragon and may or may not be available. I'd hazard a guess at it being denied more often than not but if a DM is cool with it, that would be a way around that weakness. It's more expensive than a BBB though, and the availability of the required herbs is under DM control, just like any other resource that the party might try to purchase.

[Flickerdart]

Example of good use: A cleric of Olidamara is challenged to a duel. He shows up at the appointed time, in the appointed place and fights a clean, fair fight. That night he gets a visionary dream from his god expressing disappointment in him for acting so lawfully and warns him that he shouldn't make a habit of such things. In the morning after spell-prep he discovers that his turn undead ability didn't fully recharge or that his luck domain granted power won't function for the day, not in an "aha! gotcha" way in the middle of combat but simply as something he's aware of immediately.
How does that make sense? Not only does this mighty god bother to stoop and talk to a random follower over an utterly inconsequential matter, but in order to get him to follow his faith better in the future, he gives him less power? That's a great way to lose followers. A sensible god would, at best, force the cleric to select a few spells that better fit the god's personality, or send a cleric of his own to steal something of the other cleric's (or steal an item the party has been questing for before they got to it) as proof that trickery is better than fairness.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How does that make sense? Not only does this mighty god bother to stoop and talk to a random follower over an utterly inconsequential matter, but in order to get him to follow his faith better in the future, he gives him less power? That's a great way to lose followers. A sensible god would, at best, force the cleric to select a few spells that better fit the god's personality, or send a cleric of his own to steal something of the other cleric's (or steal an item the party has been questing for before they got to it) as proof that trickery is better than fairness.

That a god visited you in your dreams would weaken a character's faith seems supsect to me. Particularly a cleric, someone who's dedicated his life to his gods teachings. That he's at 95% of maximum power instead of 100% reinforces the idea that it was a vision and not just a dream.

Changing gods is a huge ordeal for a cleric. It requires a loss of faith, with the commensurate loss of powers, followed by a test by his soon to be new god before a casting of atonement and the claiming of his new powers.

It's like when your boss gives you a reprimand because you screwed up at work. Yeah, if it happens often enough and its mostly not your own fault then you'll quit, but not until you're sure that there's no reason to stay because of the difficulty of unemployment. If it's a reprimand you know you deserve because you legitimately screwed up, then you try a little harder not to make the same mistake again so you can keep your job and continue to do what needs to be done.

That said, your suggestions for alternatives are good too and I'd probably go to them first only using the direct deific enforcement after a pattern has begun to take shape or if the duel in question was of some particular importance in the grand scheme of things. Though I have to ask, how is forcing certain spells on the character any different really? It's still the god taking direct action to point the cleric back to the proper path.

As for why the deity took an intrest, this is Olidamara. It could be nothing more than a deific whim that formed because he happened, entirely by coincidence, to be watching something else going on in the same general area. Deific senses are extraordinarily broad.

[Draz74]

Cleric: Use the Spontaneous Divine Casters variant. Ban the Cloistered Cleric variant, but give all clerics a bump up to 4 skill points. Remove Divine Power from the Cleric list, but leave it on the War Domain list. Give the Cleric automatic proficiency with their deity's favored weapon in place of heavy armor proficiency (but add heavy armor proficiency to the benefits of the War Domain). Don't allow Divine Metamagic to cast spells that are a higher (adjusted) level than the Cleric can actually cast. Other optional nerfs that may or may not be needed: poor Fortitude save; Save DCs based on Charisma rather than Wisdom.

Druid: Use the Spontaneous Divine Casters variant, except the Druid does not automatically learn Summon Nature's Ally spells. He must spend a Spell Known on them, as normal. Optionally, you can give the druid the Spontaneous Healing Variant from PHB2 to make up for this nerf. Force the Druid to use the Shapeshift Variant from the same book, but allow him to keep the animal companion feature, with a -3 penalty to his effective druid level.

Wizard: Honestly, there's nothing wrong with the Wizard class itself. The two problems that make Wizards overpowered are (1) spells, and (2) broken overpowered spells. So the Wizard is particularly hard to fix.

Archivist: Hmmm, I haven't thought much about this one. Like the Wizard, it's difficult to restrict their spell selection because having a book of options is basically part of the class's concept.

All of the above: my Cleric and especially my Druid version above are still solidly Tier 2. If you want to knock all of the above down to Tier 3, hit them with a slowed spellcasting progression similar to the Bard's. Topping out at Level 6 spells. Note that this may make the Wizard extremely boring at Level 1.

Spell-to-Power Erudite: ban it. No loss here. Normal Erudites (with some kind of moderate interpretation of their UPD restriction) should be plenty.

Artificer: use Ernir's Tinkerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232069) instead. Come to think of it, using Ernir's Spellcasting Fix ("Psionics Mechanics, Vancian Flavor") is a great start to nerfing the Cleric/Druid/Wizard anyway.