[3.5] Metamagic + Wish = Wishing for Infinite Wishes

[Cruiser1]

Magic items that cast spells (such as scrolls, wands, and staffs) have a base cost for the spell, and extra costs for expensive material components and experience. For example, a level 1 scroll costs 25gp, however a Scroll of Identify costs 125 gp (25gp + the 100 gp material component). These costs can be variable, e.g. a Scroll of Trap the Soul able to trap a 10HD creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) or less costs 13000 gp (3000 gp for a level 8 spell + 1000 gp / HD material component). Experience costs 5gp per XP point, e.g. a Scroll of Wish costs at least 28825 gp (3825 gp for a level 9 spell + 25000 gp to cover 5000 XP).

The spell Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) has the ability to "create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item". That costs "twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5000 XP". For example, to wish to create Bracers of Armor +1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor) would cost 5080 XP (5000 XP for Wish + twice 40 XP to craft a magic item worth 1000 gold). There are no limits to magic items you can wish for, where you can even create epic magic items as a non-epic character, as long as you can cover the XP. It's the double XP hit, in addition to the 5000 XP on top of it, that usually prevents one from wishing for wishes (or any other magic item for that matter). For example, you could wish to create a Scroll of Wish, however that would be extremely expensive and cost 15306 XP, or 5000 XP for casting Wish + twice 5153 XP (153 XP for a 9th level scroll + 5000 XP for the Wish inside it).

Metamagic to the rescue! A Twin Repeat Spell of Wish effectively allows four Wishes for little more than the price of one. This effectively 4x XP bonus easily overrides the 2x XP penalty for wishing for magic items. It allows us to build up a Scroll of Wish until it has enough extra XP inside it to pay for any magic item we want. The following are the simple steps to achieve infinite wishes:


Acquire a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish with 17440 extra XP in it (see later for ways to get one). 17440 is a magic number, where any less isn't strong enough to create the exponential buildup of crafting experience we seek, and any more is overkill and unnecessary.
Read the Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish, and wish to create a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish with 812 extra XP in it. This will cost exactly 17440 XP, i.e. 272 XP for a 16th level scroll at 17th CL + 5000 XP to cast Wish + twice (272 XP for a 16th level Scroll + 5000 XP for Wish + 812 extra XP within it). Ordinarily that would seem like a big waste, as we just traded a Scroll with 17440 extra XP within it, for a Scroll with a mere 812 extra XP within it. However it was a Twin Repeat spell, so we get four copies of the lesser scroll.
We now have four Scrolls of Twin Repeat Wish with 812 extra XP within them. Read scroll #1, and wish to upgrade the extra XP within scroll #2 by 406 XP. To upgrade the XP within an item by 406 costs 406 x 2 = 812 XP, which we exactly have enough for. After all four wishes in scroll #1 go off, scroll #2 has 812 + (406 x 4) = 2436 XP. Then read scroll #2, and wish to upgrade the extra XP within scroll #3 by 2436 / 2 = 1218 XP. After the four wishes in scroll #2 go off, scroll #3 has 812 + (1218 x 4) = 5684 XP. Finally read scroll #3, and wish to upgrade the extra XP within scroll #4 by 5684 / 2 = 2842 XP. After the four wishes in scroll #3, scroll #4 has 812 + (2842 x 4) = 12180 XP. That 12180 XP can be used to wish for a magic item worth up to 6090 XP.
We're now back to having a single Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish, which can be read to create a magic item worth up to 6090 XP. Compare to the original scroll, which could create an item worth (272 XP for 16th level Scroll + 5000 XP for Wish + 812 extra) = 6084 XP. Our new scroll has gained 6 crafting XP for nothing! Our next steps are to repeat the process and exponentially build up the XP in our Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish. For the second generation:
Read the new scroll of Twin Repeat Wish, to create 4 Scrolls of Twin Repeat Wish with 818 extra XP in them. Read scroll #1, and wish to upgrade the extra XP in scroll #2 by 409 XP, resulting in scroll #2 having 818 + (409 x 4) = 2454 XP. Read scroll #2, and wish to upgrade the extra XP in scroll #3 by 1227 XP, resulting in scroll #3 having 818 + (1227 x 4) = 5726 XP. Read scroll #3, and wish to upgrade the extra XP in scroll #4 by 2863 XP, resulting in scroll #4 having 818 + (2863 x 4) = 12270 XP, which can be used to wish for a magic item worth up to 6135 XP. This generation upgraded our single scroll of Twin Repeat Wish by 45 XP.

In summary, each generation involves reading a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish, wishing to create four lesser Scrolls of Twin Repeat Wish, and then reading three of them to make the fourth more powerful than the original. Each generation takes just 8 rounds to implement, to read four scrolls (and than wait a round for Repeat Spell to kick in next round, before starting the next scroll). If X is the amount of extra crafting XP in a scroll, the amount of crafting XP increases by (X+(X+(X+(X)/2*4)/2*4)/2*4)/2 or 7.5X. (All divisions are rounding down, so it actually takes a few generations before it stabilizes at increasing your XP available to make items by a factor of 7.5 exactly.)

GenerationCrafting XPXP AdditionItem ValueWeapon+
160840760506
260906761256
3613545766886
46465330808136
5894024751117507
6275101857037550010
7166785139275733925019
8121134010445555956700054
990455107834170451275500150
1067801785587562753389089250411


The first few generations are summarized in the table above. The "Item Value" column indicates the gp value of an item that can be wished for (you'll actually get 4 copies of it due to the Wish being Twin Repeat). That's assuming you don't wish for the best Twin Repeat Wish scroll to repeat the process. The first 5 generations (with item value <= 200K) follow the standard non-epic formula of gp = (XP/2) x 25. Generations 6 and beyond (with item value > 200K) follow the epic formula of gp = (XP/2-10000) x 100. Notice the exponential rising! The "Weapon+" column indicates the best weapon that can be wished for in total enchantment plusses, e.g. wishing for an item worth up to 111750 gp can yield a +5 Holy longsword (+7 enchantments total). Again, the first 5 generations follow the non-epic formula of Weapon_Plus = Sqrt(gp/2000). Generations 6 and beyond follow the epic formula of Weapon_Plus = Sqrt(gp/20000). After a mere 10 generations or 72 rounds (7 min 12 sec) you can wish for +411 weapons, or any other item worth 3 billion gold pieces.

Note all this is just increasing the strength of a single Scroll of Wish. What we really want is multiple such scrolls, in order to be able to use some for actual wishes. After generation 7, when you have a scroll with 166785 extra XP in it, read it to create four Scrolls of Twin Repeat Wish with 80757 XP in them, then read all of them to get 16 scrolls with 37742 XP. Each such scroll has more XP than the 17440 magic number we started with, so each can be used to restart the exponential wishing. Put one scroll aside, then use the other 15 to wish for powerful items. In other words, you have infinite wishes, each of which can be built up at an exponential rate to wish for an arbitrarily powerful item.

There's no limit to how much extra XP you can store in your Scroll of Wish, and hence no limit to how nice of a weapon or other epic magic item you can wish for. Here's the epic weapon plus table extended for the next several generations. Each row is 2.74 or Sqrt(7.5) times the previous, which is still exponential. For an extreme example, at generation 233 (after 1856 rounds, or 3 hours 6 min) you can create a plus Google weapon! That's 10^100 or 1 with 100 zero's, or a +1527221221225070000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00 weapon! (I had fun in Excel to produce that number. :smalltongue:) Enjoy your +Google to hit and +Google hp damage! Afterwards create yourself a +Google Epic Ring of Protection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#protection) (which costs the same) for Google deflection AC.

GenerationWeapon+
719
854
9150
10411
111127
123087
138456
1423157
1563419
16173682
17475647
181302615
193567358
209769613
2126755189
2273272104
23200663920
24549540779
251504979406
264121555848
2711287345550
2830911668862
2984655091631


Wimpy mega-epic monsters like the Neutronium Golem (http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/IH_Neutronium_Golem.png) have a mere 2 million hp and AC 932, which weapons like this will cut down easily. Actually the Neutronium Golem text suggests an earth-sized planet has a mere 122880 hp, so enjoy destroying planets! The number of atoms in the Universe is estimated to be 10^80, and with our 10^100 damage our +Google weapon should be able to annihilate the entire Universe in a single swing! :smallbiggrin:

How does one acquire a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish with 17440 extra XP in it? That is an epic magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm), since it's effectively a 16th level spell, which "mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th". Fortunately, no such scroll has the 10x epic cost, since the 200K gp cost defining epic items does not include "material component or experience point-based costs". Anyway:

Buy one directly, which will cost 119000 gp. That's 6800 gp (16th level scroll at minimum CL 17) + 25000 gp (5000 XP for Wish) + 17440 x 5 gp. The downside is the realism of finding an epic NPC able to craft such an item and sell it to you.
Wish for one. Create an epic Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish with a non-epic standard single Wish. The standard Wish needs to have 40033 extra XP within it to be able to create a magic item worth 17440 XP. This can be covered by a non-epic standard Scroll of Wish, which costs 228990 gp to buy. That's 3825 gp (9th level scroll at CL 17) + 25000 gp (5000 XP for Wish) + 40033 x 5 gp. 228990 gp is expensive, but worth it for infinite wishes. Even a level 16 character can afford that with their WBL.
Craft it yourself. If you're epic, scribe the Twin Repeat Scroll of Wish directly. If you're not epic, scribe the standard Scroll of Wish with 40033 extra XP within it. The standard scroll will cost 1913 gp + 45033 XP to craft. That's a huge amount of XP, although a level 20 character (or a character with 190000 XP total) who chooses to only level up to 17, will have 54000 XP available to use. A crafter can also partially or entirely mitigate XP costs in several ways. Castings of Distilled Joy (if good) or Liquid Pain (if evil) will reduce XP by 2 each time (so cast it 20017 times). The feat Legendary Artisan (ECS) makes XP costs only 75%, and it can be taken multiple times (so Dark Chaos Shuffle all your feats to it before crafting).

In summary this allows almost any character to achieve infinite wishes. The only thing needed non-core is for Twin Spell and Repeat Spell (both from CA) to exist in your campaign world. Your character can be core only, where it doesn't need those feats, since it can wish for the scrolls containing them. The only thing needed is for Wish to be on your spell list (or to have a good UMD check) and to be able to reliably read a CL 17 scroll (a Sor/Wiz 17 is the easiest way to cover both).

Infinite wishes isn't new, where any character who can get Wish as a spell-like ability (which ignores material and XP costs), or can control a monster with Wish as a spell-like ability (like an Efretti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)), can technically directly wish for an item providing infinite wishes with infinite XP in them. Although a common house rule to prevent abuse (otherwise every 11th level Wizard would have infinite wishes through Planar Binding) is that SLA's for spells with XP costs still have that cost. However this is an alternate and amusing way to achieve infinite wishes that doesn't depend on such PrC's or monsters existing in the campaign world. :smallcool:

[Kornaki]

When you go from step 3 to step 4, isn't your scroll missing the 5000 xp that the wish itself requires (before any crafting?) At any rate the fact that you have about 5000 less xp on your scroll at the end of step three than you did at step 1 tells me you couldn't possibly have made progress

[Cruiser1]

When you go from step 3 to step 4, isn't your scroll missing the 5000 xp that the wish itself requires (before any crafting?) At any rate the fact that you have about 5000 less xp on your scroll at the end of step three than you did at step 1 tells me you couldn't possibly have made progress
No, we are ok. :smallsmile: These steps are referring to the extra XP required (above and beyond the 5000 XP to cast Wish) to create or improve magic items. For example, even if there were 0 extra XP in any of the steps, we would still have a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish, which could be read to make wishes (although not craft any magic items). In other words, the 5000 XP is already covered because we are using and improving existing Scrolls of Wish we already have, and paid for earlier.

Now, it is true that we need enough extra XP in one of these scrolls, when wishing to create more Scrolls of Wish, to cover the 5000 XP for the nested Wish, in addition to the base XP of the item. When I have a Scroll of Wish with 12180 extra XP within it at the end of step #3, I can read it (the Wish being cast has already been paid for in the scroll itself) and create an item worth up to 12180 / 2 = 6090 XP. The 6090 XP covers a new Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish (5000 base XP for Wish + 272 XP for 16th level Scroll + 818 XP extra), which is slightly better than the first generation Scroll.

[Jack_Simth]

You need to re-do a lot of your calculations. The same table (www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/scrolls.htm#tableEpicScrollSpellLevels) that gives you notes on how to make scrolls of trans-9th spells also give caster levels for them that are higher than 17th; that 16th level spell scroll needs a caster level of 27. All it really changes is your magic number, though.

[Vaz]

While this option is available to you, it requires a lot of investment, while gating an efreet is far simpler.

[Arcanist]

While this option is available to you, it requires a lot of investment, while gating an efreet is far simpler.

Ugh... Been there, done that, not arguing it again :smallsigh:

OT: I have NEVER seen anyone try to stat out an atom, but I sincerely hope that nobody ever does... It would make combat in D&D all but impossible.

[Kazyan]

OT: I have NEVER seen anyone try to stat out an atom, but I sincerely hope that nobody ever does... It would make combat in D&D all but impossible.

*sideways glance at off-handed attempt at revising the size system for any scale, buried somewhere in papers*

Nope.

Anyway, this is a great find. It'll make wish-based TO neater, at least.

[Arcanist]

*sideways glance at off-handed attempt at revising the size system for any scale, buried somewhere in papers*

NOOOOOOO! I'd rather NOT have to go through an AoO for almost everything I'd ever do only to take 0 damage and when I attack I have to attack through so many atoms... GOD FORBID I ACTUALLY HIT ONE (and even worse if I split it :smallfrown:)

[Jack_Simth]

(and even worse if I split it :smallfrown:)
Not actually a big deal for most materials. Enriched uranium is handy for nuclear reactors and bombs because that material has nuclei that are sufficiently close together and sufficiently fragile that the engineers can arrange for the shattered remnants of a shattered nucleus to have a sufficiently high chance of shattering more than one nuclei that it sets off a chain reaction. The *VAST* majority of materials don't have that going for them. Splitting a couple atoms in the air won't do much.

[ericgrau]

So... you're saying I need to major creation some uranium first? :smallbiggrin: Or if the spell would only create normal uranium of insufficient enrichment, then make it plutonium or another such element, but I'm already going too far with this.

[Urpriest]

The main flaw in this is the assumption that a Twinned spell only costs the XP amount of one copy of the spell, rather than two. While I would rule that way based on the wording, I think it's ambiguous enough that this really can't be considered completely solid. Ideally, the feat would have been written to specify how spells with XP components or expensive material components interact with it.

[Kazyan]

NOOOOOOO! I'd rather NOT have to go through an AoO for almost everything I'd ever do only to take 0 damage and when I attack I have to attack through so many atoms... GOD FORBID I ACTUALLY HIT ONE (and even worse if I split it :smallfrown:)

This stuff's easily evaded in the Barn limit/Swat limit rules I hashed out, probably. And atoms aren't creatures anyway, so they can't take AoOs.

Maybe I'll take a look at the system again...

[Arcanist]

*snip*


*snip*

This makes me want to stat out the production of a Nuclear reactor using 3.5 material... Meh... I'd be better of using Gramarie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252794) :smallsigh:


This stuff's easily evaded in the Barn limit/Swat limit rules I hashed out, probably. And atoms aren't creatures anyway, so they can't take AoOs.

Maybe I'll take a look at the system again...

Do tell :smallamused:

[Kazyan]

Do tell :smallamused:

*twiddling thumbs* I can't find the good stuff, but the idea is that, if a creature is at least five size categories larger than you, you're trying to hit the broad side of a barn. If you still can't hit it, making the barn larger doesn't help. So there's a "barn limit" on how much +to hit you get from a monster being larger than you. Beyond the barn limit, the monster becomes flat-footed to your attacks because their nervous system physically does not transmit messages fast enough for them to react. Similarly, there's a "swat limit": when you're trying to swat a fly, and you hit, it didn't matter how large it was--its body occupied the volume your attack swept; making itself smaller doesn't move it out of the volume. So if something's five or more size categories smaller than you, you only take -10 to hit. Then apply the IHB rule of "if your move speed can't get you out of the way of the attack, you're flat-footed" in extreme cases.

I could make changes based on your atom glitch.

[Cruiser1]

You need to re-do a lot of your calculations. The same table (www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/scrolls.htm#tableEpicScrollSpellLevels) that gives you notes on how to make scrolls of trans-9th spells also give caster levels for them that are higher than 17th; that 16th level spell scroll needs a caster level of 27. All it really changes is your magic number, though.
That table just seems to list that scrolls of a level X spell at typical caster level Y cost Z gp. It doesn't say that all spells in slot level X must always be at least caster level Y. I was going by the creating magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) page which says, "Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell." In other words, the minimum caster level for the 9th level spell Wish is 17, which stays the same even if the slot level is increased through metamagic. Can a Wizard scribe a Scroll of Maximized Magic Missile (1st level spell in a 4th level slot) at CL1, or does it have to be CL7? If a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish (a 16th level slot) does have to be at least CL27, then it indeed increases the magic number slightly, from 17440 extra XP to 17968 XP, which delays your +Google weapon by 1 generation or 8 rounds. :smallsmile:

The main flaw in this is the assumption that a Twinned spell only costs the XP amount of one copy of the spell, rather than two. While I would rule that way based on the wording, I think it's ambiguous enough that this really can't be considered completely solid. Ideally, the feat would have been written to specify how spells with XP components or expensive material components interact with it.
XP costs of Twin Wish have come up before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236185). Ruling that Twin Spell requires you to pay XP/material costs twice would certainly be a decisive way to shut down this method of getting infinite wishes. However, the feat doesn't say there are any extra costs, so by its wording there indeed aren't. After all, why doesn't Twin Spell cost triple the XP, or 1.5x the XP, or two spell slots instead of one? Without something that indicates an extra cost, you can't easily pick one.

[Urpriest]

XP costs of Twin Wish have come up before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236185). Ruling that Twin Spell requires you to pay XP/material costs twice would certainly be a decisive way to shut down this method of getting infinite wishes. However, the feat doesn't say there are any extra costs, so by its wording there indeed aren't. After all, why doesn't Twin Spell cost triple the XP, or 1.5x the XP, or two spell slots instead of one? Without something that indicates an extra cost, you can't easily pick one.

The argument would presumably be that since "affected creatures receiv[e] all the effects of each spell individually", and since the caster is affected by Wish in that they lose XP, that should happen twice. It's certainly a fuzzy argument, but it's fuzzy wording that really should have been corrected a long time ago.

[Sith_Happens]

Uh, where does it say that a scroll of Wish can have "extra XP" beyond the usual 5000 in it in the first place?

[Arcanist]

Uh, where does it say that a scroll of Wish can have "extra XP" beyond the usual 5000 in it in the first place?

Is that even a requirement for making magical items? :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Stupid question: Why not use a scroll of shapechange to change into a zodar and wish up a rod of infinite wishes? (aside from the rather obvious issue of a DM hitting you with a brick for trying any variation of infinite wishes.)

It's still pure cheese, but it's the cleanest, most efficient form of infinite wish cheese available and only requires a single non-core book (the fiend folio.)

[Cruiser1]

Uh, where does it say that a scroll of Wish can have "extra XP" beyond the usual 5000 in it in the first place?
The cost of casting Wish isn't 5000 XP. It's 5000 XP for most usages, and something higher than 5000 when creating a magic item. See the definiton of the Wish spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) in the list of safe wishes. There's no "extra XP", where that's just the terminology used to indicate how much more than 5000 XP a particular casting of Wish requires.

These variable costs for spells, and hence scrolls of such spells, can be seen in the SRD: See the list of scroll costs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm), where a Scroll of Trap the Soul able to trap a 10HD creature or less is listed as costing 13000 gp (3000 gp for a level 8 spell + 1000 gp / HD material component). A Scroll of Trap the Soul able to trap a 20HD creature or less would cost 23000 gp (3000 gp for level 8 spell + 20000 gp for 20 HD). The 1st scroll of Trap the Soul has 10000 "extra gp" of material costs within it, while the 2nd scroll has 20000 "extra gp" within it.

The argument would presumably be that since "affected creatures receive all the effects of each spell individually", and since the caster is affected by Wish in that they lose XP, that should happen twice. It's certainly a fuzzy argument, but it's fuzzy wording that really should have been corrected a long time ago.
I agree nothing can be determined for sure unless the fuzzy wording is clarified, however it still seems pretty clear to me. Losing 5000 or more XP isn't an effect of the Wish spell, but rather a cost to cast it in the first place. Other costs are having a 9th level spell slot prepared. If you don't have the required spell slot prepeared, or don't have the XP to spend, then spell isn't cast. Once you pay the costs, the spell's effect (e.g. creating a magic item) takes place. Metamagic feats change the spell effect (e.g. making the spell effect take place twice) and don't change the spell cost. Otherwise, if casting Twin Wish cost you 10K XP, then it should also cost you two 9th level spell slots. It doesn't cost you any extra spell slots, so shouldn't cost you any additional XP.

Stupid question: Why not use a scroll of shapechange to change into a zodar and wish up a rod of infinite wishes?
A rod of infinite wishes is a custom magic item, which DM's may not allow. Fiend Folio is a 3.0 book, which DM's may not allow. In-character a PC may not know what a Zodar is, or know enough about one to Shapechange into it. On the other hand, Twin Spell and Repeat Spell are from CA, which is much more common sourcebook.

[Arcanist]

Stupid question: Why not use a scroll of shapechange to change into a zodar and wish up a rod of infinite wishes? (aside from the rather obvious issue of a DM hitting you with a brick for trying any variation of infinite wishes.)

Because the Scroll of Wish won't like how you smell and will teleport you into the nearest Sun or into the Far Realm. Which ever is worse at the time... So the Far Realm.

[Kelb_Panthera]

@cruiser:

A ring of three wishes then. One to create a new scroll of shapechange and two for whatever.

The 3.0 thing is a null argument, since 3.0 is 3.5 legal unless updated. 3.0 and 3.5 are the same game.

Knowledge of the creature is only a knowledge check away, and if you can reasonably activate any 9th level scroll you'll have no trouble making it. It's actually much more likely than having twin and repeat on anything that's not a mailman-style blaster.

If the fiend-folio is unavailable or not in use, then the outlined method, while much more complicated, looks viable.

Because the Scroll of Wish won't like how you smell and will teleport you into the nearest Sun or into the Far Realm. Which ever is worse at the time... So the Far Realm.

That's a spurious insinuation if I ever heard one.

Yes, I believe that any reading of RAW that tries to deny that a sentient outsider (NPC's, one and all) is capable of thinking for itself or acting in its own best interest just to try and get around the limitations the system tries to impose is willfully ignoring a host of pitfalls on the road to power. I'll argue against it at nearly any turn, because it is such a stupid assumption IMO.

That doesn't mean I'm a control freak DM that won't let players have nice things and I resent the passive aggressive accusation of such.

A scroll is not (usually) a sentient item capable of making decisions. It does exactly what the text says it does because that's its only function. It also costs resources to acquire and is not capable of limitless power, beyond the pure cheese method I outlined above.

The 20,000xp that the OP's method might take can pushes it right to the edge of epic play, unless some cheesey method of producing the excess XP is found. Otherwise purchasing such a scroll is obscenely expensive, being an item that's in-line with the +4 tomes and manuals of +X ability.

[Kazyan]

While the Shapechange method is neater, more research is always nice. This one is handier for a self-replicating Wish economy. Post-scarcity on paper!

[Arcanist]

*Kelb totally taking my joke the wrong way*

Umm... that was with the 100% intention of joking, no offense intended and I figured you'd be already aware that I of all people would pop into this thread to make a light little quip about Wish. I never accused you of being a Control Freak DM (If I did previously, it was obviously baseless and with the intent of humor and I apologize).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Umm... that was with the 100% intention of joking, no offense intended and I figured you'd be already aware that I of all people would pop into this thread to make a light little quip about Wish. I never accused you of being a Control Freak DM (If I did previously, it was obviously baseless and with the intent of humor and I apologize).

Accepted. I've got a head-cold type thing going on and it makes me a bit snappy. Maybe I oughta go back to watching Fairy Tail for a bit. Seems dead in here today anyway.

Have you considered using skull-talismans (Frostburn) instead of scrolls? With those, anyone can accomplish this with no magical knowledge at all.

[Cruiser1]

The 20,000xp that the OP's method might take can pushes it right to the edge of epic play, unless some cheesey method of producing the excess XP is found.
Getting 45033 XP to pay for your initial Scroll of Wish (that allows you to wish for a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish with 17440 extra XP in it) isn't hard:

As mentioned in the OP, you can cast Distilled Joy 20017 times (to get 2 crafting XP each) to pay for it. Then you just need 1913 gp to make your scroll. Distilled Joy has a 1 day casting time, so casting 1/day would ordinarily take 55 years, which only works for an Elf or Lich. However if you cast Twin Repeat Distilled Joy (4 castings) plus cast Imbue Familar With Spell Ability to give a casting to your familiar, then you cast 5/day which would take 11 years. Even better is to cast Distilled Joy using Miracle (get Miracle on your spell list through Arcane Disciple (Luck) or a few other ways), which always takes just 1 standard action. Assuming five 9th level spell slots, that yields another 5 castings, dropping the time to 5.5 years. Better still is to use any of the infinite spell tricks (like casting Absorption (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212739)) and you can get all your castings of Distilled Joy in a single day. Infinite wishes for just 1913 gp. :smallsmile:

Also, the feat Legendary Artisan (ECS) reduces XP crafting costs by 25%, and it can be taken multiple times. A Human Wizard 18 has eight general feat slots that can all be Chaos Shuffled to Legendary Artisan, so crafting only takes (0.75^8) = 10% of normal. That makes scribing the scroll only cost 4509 XP. Chaos Shuffling 8 feats to Legendary Artisan and back to what they were afterward costs an additional 8000 XP (if you cast them yourself) or 39200 gp if you hire an NPC to cast them for you. Still not free, but much cheaper.

Have you considered using skull-talismans (Frostburn) instead of scrolls? With those, anyone can accomplish this with no magical knowledge at all.
That's a good idea if you're not an arcane caster. Skull talismans cost 4x the price of an equivalent scroll (which is the markup for being able to be activated by anybody) so there would be a higher initial cost, but it wouldn't require being able to UMD high level scrolls.