Army of Mules?

[bendking]

I seem to recall a guy commenting about mules being able to easily pin-down and thus deny the DEX AC, giving you a sneak attack.
Anyone mind to comment about how viable it actualy is, and wether it makes your character evil, since you buy so many mules that will most likely die?

[Invader]

I think falls into the absurd-cheese realm. I guess by RAW it would work because while mules are capable of attacking and thus threatening a square, they're not trained for combat and thus aren't going to stand there and attack your enemies and they're certaining not intelligent enough to coordinate attacks for flanking bonuses. Plus in top of that you'd have to have a way to communicate with them.

All in all I'd say there are far more reasonable and easy ways to get flanking bonuses.

[bendking]

I think falls into the absurd-cheese realm. I guess by RAW it would work because while mules are capable of attacking and thus threatening a square, they're not trained for combat and thus aren't going to stand there and attack your enemies and they're certaining not intelligent enough to coordinate attacks for flanking bonuses. Plus in top of that you'd have to have a way to communicate with them.

All in all I'd say there are far more reasonable and easy ways to get flanking bonuses.
Care to explain what way is cheaper?

[Invader]

Care to explain what way is cheaper?

Idk mules are pretty cheap. I said easier and more reasonable though :smalltongue:

[bendking]

Idk mules are pretty cheap. I said easier and more reasonable though :smalltongue:

OK, explain those.

[Invader]

OK, explain those.

Having a teammate that knows how to flank, leadership feat, invisibility, grease, hide in plain sight, marbles, there are really tons of ways.

Here's a thread listing a bunch of different ways http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106786

[Darrin]

I seem to recall a guy commenting about mules being able to easily pin-down and thus deny the DEX AC, giving you a sneak attack.


Might have been (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5365216&postcount=21) me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5158950&postcount=19).




Anyone mind to comment about how viable it actualy is


Mules are large animals with a +9 grapple check. However, they're not normally trained for war, so you need to teach them 2-3 tricks: Attack, Pin, and possibly Attack Non-Humanoid. This will take 2-3 weeks and cost either 3 SP per day (cost per PHB) or 8 SP per day (A&EG cost for animal trainer), so about 4-17 GP per mule. If you already have an animal handler in the party or can train the animal yourself, you may save some GP there.

Once you're in combat, you can order a mule to "Attack" or "Pin" as a move action. The rules are unclear on whether you can stack a single order to direct multiple creatures... but multiple dogs can be ordered to attack with a single command, so I'm not sure mules would be much of a stretch.

In all seriousness, this is sort of a "funny once" trick. As in, most DMs will allow this trick to work once, let the players chuckle about it for a bit, and after that will probably start giving you grief over the logistics of feeding the mules, getting them to fit down narrow 5' corridors, making sure there's not enough open space for them to surround the target, etc.

There's also the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" argument, in that you've given him free license to play the same trick on the party, only he won't use mules, he'll probably use half-octupus/half-dragon dire apes (with lasers).

So... to answer your question, I guess I'd have to say talk to your DM, and see if he's ok with you designing a character around this tactic and using it more than once.



and wether it makes your character evil, since you buy so many mules that will most likely die?

You're playing a game where the entire existence of your character is predicated on the concept of killing naked monsters and taking their gold... and you're worried that killing a few mules is going to make you evil?

[nedz]

Well you could use Monster Summoning to summon a Celestial or Fiendish Mule — there are better options for that spell though.

[bendking]

Might have been (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5365216&postcount=21) me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5158950&postcount=19).




Mules are large animals with a +9 grapple check. However, they're not normally trained for war, so you need to treat them 2-3 tricks: Attack, Pin, and possibly Attack Non-Humanoid. This will take 2-3 weeks and cost either 3 SP per day (cost per PHB) or 8 SP per day (A&EG cost for animal trainer), so about 4-17 GP per mule. If you already have an animal handler in the party or can train the animal yourself, you may save some GP there.

Once you're in combat, you can order a mule to "Attack" or "Pin" as a move action. The rules are unclear on whether you can stack a single order to direct multiple creatures... but multiple dogs can be ordered to attack with a single command, so I'm not sure mules would be much of a stretch.

In all seriousness, this is sort of a "funny once" trick. As in, most DMs will allow this trick to work once, let the players chuckle about it for a bit, and after that will probably start giving you grief over the logistics of feeding the mules, getting them to fit down narrow 5' corridors, making sure there's not enough open space for them to surround the target, etc.

There's also the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" argument, in that you've given him free license to play the same trick on the party, only he won't use mules, he'll probably use half-octupus/half-dragon dire apes (with lasers).

So... to answer your question, I guess I'd have to say talk to your DM, and see if he's ok with you designing a character around this tactic and using it more than once.



You're playing a game where the entire existence of your character is predicated on the concept of killing naked monsters and taking their gold... and you're worried that killing a few mules is going to make you evil?
OK, solid answer, and I suppose that Mules are kind of innocent and I bought them to die for a selfish cause, irl anyone would consider this immoral.

[Cieyrin]

OK, solid answer, and I suppose that Mules are kind of innocent and I bought them to die for a selfish cause, irl anyone would consider this immoral.

I don't see how this is any more 'evil' than having your animal companion or summoned creatures fight the forces of whatever. Also consider mules aren't exactly stupid, they won't stick around if they get hurt anymore than your squishy characters will, they aren't automatons. It's not like you're buying a herd of sheep and sending them as trap detectors through the Tomb of Horrors or anything.

[Anderlith]

Why am I picturing Kevin Costner & his mule from "The Postman" doing this?

[Gavinfoxx]

Summoned creatures are generic archetypes created on the spot. They have no prior existence or further existence outside of the spell. This is unlike called creatures, which have a prior existence outside the spell.

[The Glyphstone]

Summoned creatures are generic archetypes created on the spot. They have no prior existence or further existence outside of the spell. This is unlike called creatures, which have a prior existence outside the spell.

I thought it was that Summoned creatures were summoned from another plane, but when 'killed' or their duration expires they just got sent back to where they came from and couldn't leave for X time. Whereas Calling means the creature is physically there and dies for good if it's killed.

[Darrin]

OK, solid answer, and I suppose that Mules are kind of innocent and I bought them to die for a selfish cause, irl anyone would consider this immoral.

The best description I've seen for the average PC is "homicidal hobo". If you want to bring IRL concepts of "morality" into D&D, that's never going to end well. Yes, we all want to think of our PCs as "heroes", but when we wind up 1 XP short, that's when we whip out the magnifying glass and go looking for anthills.

I shouldn't defend this sort of thing, but even though killing a bunch of innocent mules for a minor combat benefit would be universally recognized as immoral and evil, in the grand scheme of all things evil... It's not really in the same league as Sauron or Raistlin, is it?

[awa]

universally considered immoral? I doubt it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog dogs with bombs strapped to them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_pigs_%28ancient_military_weapon%29 pig lit on fire in order to scare elephants
We might not like it but hurting animals is far from universal decried particularly when we consider historical sources.

[bendking]

Well, I can see where you guys are coming from, I think I got my answers.
Thanks.