Suppose all the PCs had all 18's in stats...

[SimonMoon6]

Imagine a campaign in which all the PCs had 18's for all their stats (modified by racial ability modifiers and so forth). Fluff reason would be something like that these PCs are destined for greatness, being paragons (but not "paragons") of humanity (or dwarvenity or whatever).

Obviously that would increase the player's power a bit and would make CR appropriate challenges easier to beat. But how else would this affect things?

The positives I see: MAD characters (like monks) would become a lot more playable... though still not likely to increase in tiers.

[Snowbluff]

Monk is never playable. I inflict grievous, bodily harm to prevent monks from rolling die. Or I just steal them. Seriously, it would just make the better classes more playable, and the worse ones get little benefit.

[Deca4531]

i dont think it would effect much. 18, in the long run, arent great stats. most players end (assuming you are going for powerful builds and not just casual play) with 30s or 50s in their prime stat. all 18 would make it so you didnt have a "bad stat" but over all wouldnt be game breaking.

[GenericMook]

Doesn't really matter. Having all 18s doesn't really matter. If you're MAD, a 200k Belt of Magnificence is more necessary than the individual +6 items for less MAD, SAD or entirely NAD classes.

Of course, in earlier-levels, I guess it doesn't truly matter. Except Monks still suck.

[Yukitsu]

It's really amazing for the first four levels or so, but by the time they are actually fighting things that really great people would be fighting, they would be a nice boost that adds 2-3 over what their save would normally be.

[Mato]

{Scrubbed. Again.}

[GenericMook]

Yeah, the +4 to saves really helps until you can afford save boosters. Still, that's the only main reason 18s everywhere helps.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, the +4 to saves really helps until you can afford save boosters. Still, that's the only main reason 18s everywhere helps.
Well... the marginally increased con lets you take another hit. Maybe.

[Deca4531]

lol, you know after thinking about like this, i think my next game i run i'll tell all my players "dont bother rolling stats, you can have all 18 but no racial mods or inherited boosts. let them think they are hot stuff for a while before they start getting cocky and take on CRs way above them.

[Vaz]

It is going to make the better classes better. A 6 Strength Gnome with 20 Wisdom is only going to be better as an 18 Strength 18 Int. They suffer a small hit to DC's of their buffs, but on the whole, it simply means that they can turn fight and cast equally well.

Simply widens the gap between a fighter and a cleric when that all 18 fighter gets a couple more skills, a slightly better will save, and a better ability to purchase a lower proce sword.

[Oscredwin]

It's some combination of +1-3 HP/HD, +2-4 on bad save(s), +0-4 on the good save, +0-4 Skill points/HD, not worrying about carrying capacity, +1-5 on init, a huge boost on tertiary stats (eg great saves on a paladin), and obviously a larger boost to MAD classes like Monks, Paladins, and melee Clerics than SAD classes like Druids and Wizards.

[Eldariel]

It would make everybody naturally decent at all skills. It would open up all feats to everybody. It would make saving throws quite high across the board. It would remove incentive to wear heavier armor since everyone has the Dex to use lighter armor. It would further decrease the importance of Hit Dice since everyone has a stocky flat HP increase.

It would make stat negatives less of a problem (since 16 tends to still be plenty) improving some races (Elves, looking at you), though not by that much. It would make everyone a competent warrior on low levels regardless of the class and it'd make Composite Bows altogether awesome again, early on.


Feats would get better, and yeah, some classes would benefit disproportionately (Cleric would love it for instance). And it'd make X stat to Y-stack stronger.

[jindra34]

I think if you were to really do this seriously you'd also have to change the level stat bonuses to be +1 to all. At which point yes it would somewhat boost the overall power of MAD classes.

[Artillery]

If a group had 18s in all stats.
AC is higher, to hit is higher, saves are higher, initiative is higher, HP is higher, more skill points, +4 to all skills due to relevant ability modifiers etc.

Synergy in things you didn't have before. The X to Y thread means some crazy stuff.

Such as touch ACs of 22 at level lvl 5. Factotum3/Swordsage2 in light armor.
Skill Modifier of +16 at level 5 in full rank physical skills. Yay tumble.
+12 in the rest of full rank skills.

At High level, Belt of Magnificence +6 for MAD builds. 24 everything.

Magic users are made better at a faster rate then others.

Cleric is made even better.
Druid stays mostly the same because he doesn't use his physical stats anyways.
Wizards and Sorcerers can hit more touch ACs, sameish DC on spells, can take a hit better, they are still magic.
Fighter is fighter with better will save.
Factotum is skill monkey of choice.

In general less glaring weaknesses for each individual and greater strengths overall. Someone who builds to add multiple modifiers together will be quite strong. AC from Int, Wis, and Cha are all possible. Unfortunately you can't get Con and Str to AC as well. So 4 different stats to AC, but you take a hit to saves due to Paladin ACF. 26AC and you can wear Light Armor still.
Factotum3/SwordSage2/Paladin2.

[Eldariel]

If a group had 18s in all stats.
AC is higher, to hit is higher, saves are higher, initiative is higher, HP is higher, more skill points, +4 to all skills due to relevant ability modifiers etc.

Actually...to hit likely isn't higher since it's not rare to have 18 in your primary offensive stat anyways. Similarly, these defensive and skill maxing builds don't really require 18 in everything; what this does contribute is make these things less of one-hit wonders, still maintaining relatively reasonable access to other options like combat maneuvers or skills in spite of having those maximized stats.

[TuggyNE]

Seriously, it would just make the better classes more playable, and the worse ones get little benefit.


It is going to make the better classes better. A 6 Strength Gnome with 20 Wisdom is only going to be better as an 18 Strength 18 Int. They suffer a small hit to DC's of their buffs, but on the whole, it simply means that they can turn fight and cast equally well.

Simply widens the gap between a fighter and a cleric when that all 18 fighter gets a couple more skills, a slightly better will save, and a better ability to purchase a lower proce sword.

I don't entirely agree with either of these. Clerics do benefit from increased stats across the board, but so do Fighters; Dex is likely to do more for a Fighter than for a Cleric, while the reverse is true for Cha.

A more sensible comparison would be Monk and Wizard: Wizards hardly benefit at all from higher stats once they have max Int and enough Con to survive, while Monks need ... almost everything to be useful.

So I'd say it would improve some of the T1s and T2s, nearly all the T3s and T4s, and essentially all the T5s and T6s (and probably by a larger amount).

(Also, why would you assume racial stat adjustments wouldn't count?)

[Vaz]

Simply according to his first post. Otherwise, yeah.

A cleric doesn't get Dex boost to Initiative, but it doesn't need to. It has a ton of other tricks available to it. Indeed it arguably makes a fighter less "worthy" of being buffed, less worthy of having an action spent on it.

[TypoNinja]

I'd help quite a bit at low levels, but after that the practical bonuses would be eclipsed rapidly.

Remember its not that all stats are +4, its that all stats were increased to +4 from whatever they used to be, so the actual increase isn't going to be much, except for really MAD classes everybody already put good numbers in the stats that matter for them.

[Spuddles]

I play A LOT of low level games (1-7), and high stats are amazing. All 18s means your fighter can do more than fight, he can also perform a handful of skills excellently. The biggest, longest effect will be on skills and HP.

Casters landing attacks will also stay relevant for longer. A level 4 elf shooting a ray at touch ac 8 has a 15% failure rate; a 25% failure rate if the target uses soft cover, and a 35% failure rate if the target is in melee. That is basically like wearing plate and eating the full ASF.

Paladins and Monks will also perform much better, and mat go up a full tier, at least for the first 10 levels.

And casters can all eat old age penalties without problem for the coveted 22 in casting stat. Clerics in particular will benefit from high stats, as they are a bit MAD until you burn all your domains, feats, and spells on being a fighter.


Monk is never playable. I inflict grievous, bodily harm to prevent monks from rolling die. Or I just steal them. Seriously, it would just make the better classes more playable, and the worse ones get little benefit.

The plural of dice is dice. Die is the singular form.


Actually...to hit likely isn't higher since it's not rare to have 18 in your primary offensive stat anyways. Similarly, these defensive and skill maxing builds don't really require 18 in everything; what this does contribute is make these things less of one-hit wonders, still maintaining relatively reasonable access to other options like combat maneuvers or skills in spite of having those maximized stats.

It does double the chance to hit for low level ranged touch attacks and quadruple the chance to land touch attacks.

[ericgrau]

Everyone has at least 6 skill points per level, so there's that too.

I think it helps paladins, clerics, archers and monks the most. Rogues and rangers get a little more help than others too from things like str/dex combining and skill points. Casters who don't engage in melee don't need as many, and druids replace their physical stats even when they do engage in melee.

While it helps ranged touch spells that is a bit niche. Anyone who focuses on spells with saves focuses on their caster stat, whereas ray casters tend to put dex first anyway. This merely helps out the caster's secondary spells.

[Sith_Happens]

The impact would be pretty huge overall during early levels, but eventually the only part you'll really notice are the improved saves.

[mcv]

Of course it'll have impact. People spend time optimizing their stats for a reason. MAD classes will be much easier to play. Wizards will have way more HP and at low levels may contribute more to combat. Fighters and clerics will have a reasonable number of skills (and rogues will have an insane number of skills). Fighters will make slightly different armour choices because Dex limit is suddenly very relevant. Melee fighters will also be decent archers, and archers will be decent at melee. But most importantly, expect a lot more MAD classes.

[Killer Angel]

Not only MAD, but it will benefit also multi-class PCs.

[Spuddles]

The impact would be pretty huge overall during early levels, but eventually the only part you'll really notice are the improved saves.

It will also give many classes up to 5 more maxed out skills with relevantly high ability scores so they don't suck at it. Ignoring bad skill lists, that's almost enough to bump a low tier class up a tier.