A caster who doesn't cast

[Sajiri]

So I watched the hobbit the other week, and the way Gandalf is portrayed got me thinking about some things. I always liked how in middle-earth, the wizards use their power sparingly. You know they're powerful, but they refrain from too much, or are subtle about it, so when they DO use their magic, it makes them seem even more powerful than if they were throwing spells around everywhere.

I really like that concept, and I'd want to make a character like it too sometime. A caster who doesn't cast may not be the most strategic idea, but the person that I play with is very different to me- she focuses more on roleplaying and is, shall we say, very unoptimized. That's okay when she likes it, and I won't say I'm particularly into optimization, but I tend to dwarf her considerably and simply not using abilities, or using weaker options so that she doesn't feel useless isn't exactly fun to me, so I thought this might be a good way to work it into the roleplaying side- only using the strong spells and abilities when necessary.

The character would need to be sufficient/playable while NOT casting, even if it's not all that strong, but a hybrid class who is, for example, both a melee and a caster, doesn't quite conjure the image of powerful wizard/mage/whatever when the melee is an important part of the class's 'image.'

What would be some suitable classes/builds? I'm not necessarily looking for anything indepth yet, just an idea I'd like to mull over for our next campaign.

We play pathfinder but use any approved 3.5 content and just convert rules where necessary.

[docnessuno]

So I watched the hobbit the other week, and the way Gandalf is portrayed got me thinking about some things. I always liked how in middle-earth, the wizards use their power sparingly. You know they're powerful, but they refrain from too much, or are subtle about it, so when they DO use their magic, it makes them seem even more powerful than if they were throwing spells around everywhere.

I really like that concept, and I'd want to make a character like it too sometime. A caster who doesn't cast may not be the most strategic idea, but the person that I play with is very different to me- she focuses more on roleplaying and is, shall we say, very unoptimized. That's okay when she likes it, and I won't say I'm particularly into optimization, but I tend to dwarf her considerably and simply not using abilities, or using weaker options so that she doesn't feel useless isn't exactly fun to me, so I thought this might be a good way to work it into the roleplaying side- only using the strong spells and abilities when necessary.

The character would need to be sufficient/playable while NOT casting, even if it's not all that strong, but a hybrid class who is, for example, both a melee and a caster, doesn't quite conjure the image of powerful wizard/mage/whatever when the melee is an important part of the class's 'image.'

What would be some suitable classes/builds? I'm not necessarily looking for anything indepth yet, just an idea I'd like to mull over for our next campaign.

We play pathfinder but use any approved 3.5 content and just convert rules where necessary.

A beguiller seems like a good option. Your character would be mostly a rogue without SA, able to dabble in stealth, social skills and similar fields of expertise. Also the conceal spellcasting skill trick would allow you to make things "happen" your way without revealing you are a spellcaster (this is obviosly true for any spellcaster, but beguillers have an easyer times meeting the skill trick requirements).

[Flickerdart]

Factotum would work great for this. They are very competent jacks-of-all-trades, but get a very small amount of arcane spells they can prepare every day. They get these up to 7th level spells and can prepare up to 8 of them, eventually. Factotum is a great class to take all 20 levels in.

If you'd like to get a little more spells, the Divine Crusader prestige class is also great. You can enter as a non-caster, and get 9th level spells over 10 levels. Divine Crusaders only cast from one domain and get only a handful of spells per day of each level.

[Urpriest]

When Gandalf isn't fighting, he's generally helping out with knowledge, so you'd want a class that ably represents that. The Archivist from Heroes of Horror is somewhat good at this kind of thing, but I don't think it would have enough to do before higher levels.

It's a pity you're not playing Legend: my understanding is that their Tactician class is quite good for this sort of concept.

[Fable Wright]

Factotum would work great for this. They are very competent jacks-of-all-trades, but get a very small amount of arcane spells they can prepare every day. They get these up to 7th level spells and can prepare up to 8 of them, eventually. Factotum is a great class to take all 20 levels in.

Seconding. Really, Gandalf was a Factotum. He could fight, he could cast a few spells, but mostly it was just being skilled and knowledgeable in everything. He didn't spam spells, used mundane abilities most of the time, and handled a sword better than a beguiler ever could.

[Sajiri]

I might be biased against factotums :p I'm 99% sure the BBEG of our current campaign is a factotum. A changeling factotum at that, but I might look into it closer.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, I see two routes to this:

1: use alchemical items, and creative uses of skills to get your effectiveness.

For this, you'll want a high-int character (for the skill points), a wizard or beguiler (or ultimate magus based on those two classes.) You'll also want to focus on (in addition to your usual caster skills (i.e. concentration and spellcraft)) knowledge skills, craft skills, and maybe even cross-class skills in disable device. Able learner is also a good idea for a feat.

2: use spells that create permenant, dischargable offensive effects.

You might think of this a cheating, but for what it's worth:

Be a Mystic Theurge (Archivist/Wizard would work well, still want those skill points) In addition to the above, use spells on your days off to cast a selection of effects that are permenant until discharged. The three examples of such spells I'm aware of are explosive runes, and the Sacred Item and Profane Item spells from Complete Champion.

Explosive runes, when combined with the cantrip amanuensis, become remote bombs. The item spells charge touched items with energies that are quite harmful to certain types of creatures (Undead and Evil Outsiders for sacred item, Animals and Good Outsiders for profane item.) This energy is discharged when the item comes into contact with the appropriate creature type. Using these spells on pebbles (or anything else throwable) allows you to turn them into ranged touch attacks. To have the ability to cast both the item spells, you'll have to be a neutral (on the good-evil axis) divine caster of a neutral (again, good-evil axis) diety, since one is a [Good] spell while the other is an [Evil] spell.

As I said, the second option might technically be cheating, but in actual combat, it will have the appearance of you not having to bother to cast spells to put some hurt on your foes.

[GnomeGninjas]

Seconding. Really, Gandalf was a Factotum. He could fight, he could cast a few spells, but mostly it was just being skilled and knowledgeable in everything. He didn't spam spells, used mundane abilities most of the time, and handled a sword better than a beguiler ever could.

Gandalf was a ranger (probably with some variants), he uses TWF, limited spell casting, and animal companion.

[paddyfool]

You might have some mileage with Bard (inspires those around him, some spellcasting, some sword-swinging, some skills).

[Sajiri]

Just as some clarification, I'm not trying to make Gandalf, or associate a class with him, or even find a class that can do a bit of everything. I'm primarily looking for a powerful caster, or at least one that appears powerful, who can get away with only using it's powerful abilities when necessary.

I like some of the suggestions so far- helping with knowledge and such while not fighting. I also really liked that explosive runes suggestions. I want something that can really make an impact with magic (or it can appear to be magic), but does so sparingly.

[Annos]

Be a Dragon! RAWR:smallbiggrin: Or at least a dragonfire adept.

[HunterOfJello]

Archivist the one spellcasting class that has some really cool side benefits (excluding Druids and their wildshaping). An archivist focusing on Knowledge skills could make a decent support character using just skills and their non-spellcasting class features.


You could also secretly cast beneficial healing and restoration spells on your allies at night when they aren't watching.

[Darth Stabber]

You could try to get away with dmm cleric. Make sure no one sees your morning prep, you are poweful warrior, and when the chips are down, you have you still have all of your unpersisted spells.

Factotum is pretty much perfect.

Gandalf however would be an outsider with some slas. He's a maiar (demigod or angel depending on your reading of the silmarillion), in human form.

[Chilingsworth]

Glad I could help :smallsmile:

For a specific build, not optimized by anymeans, but should be able to make maximum useage of skills, alchemical items, dischargable attacks, and low level magics:

Wiz 3/ Archivist 7/Mystic Theurge 10 (or switch the number of levels of archivist and wizard, or go with 5 each.)

Race: Human or Half-elf. Alignment: True Neutral
Important feat: Able Learner
Nice feats to have: Fell Drain, other metamagics that add riders to damage effects, Knowledge Devotion.

Cantrips commonly prepared: Amanuensis, Caltrops, Ghost Sound, Message

Orisons commonly prepared: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Stabalize

Since you're playing basically 3.P on a pathfinder chasis, you'll have infinate cantrips/orisions.

Skills Invested in: Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge (all, to varying degrees), Heal, Search (cc), Disable Device (cc) Decipher Script, Listen (cc), Spot (cc) Craft (Alchemy), Craft (others as you see fit, probably general use ones like metalworking and carpentry), Linguistics, Tumble (cc) (Note that because of your able learner feat, cross class skills will only cost you one skill point each)

Skill Trick: Collector of Stories

On your off days, spend your 3rd level and higher arcane spells casting explosive runes (and metamagiced versions thereof) Use your 4th level and higher divine spells casting sacred object and/or profane object (and metamagiced versions thereof) (as appropriate for the kinds of threats you expect to face) Also, craft alchemical items of any sort you could concieve as being useful.

Have a Handy Haversack filled with masterwork tools for your chosen craft skills, and a healer's kit, plus thieves' tools, also your vast store of explosive runes and sacred/profane objects. When you want a specific item, you'll be able to call it to hand without having to rumage.

In combat: Use your knowledge skills to identify creatures and know everything about them. Use your varrious alchemical items to play havoc with your foes. If that doesn't work, drop explosive runes at their feat (this is what tumble is for) and detonnate them via amanuensis. If your foes happen to be Good or Evil Outsiders, or Undead, or Animals, chuck the appropriate sacred/profane objects at them for painful touch attacks. Use knowledge devotion (if you have it) to help you with the touch attacks and add some damage. The caltrops cantrip is an effective area denial weapon against alot of foes, so long as you don't need to affect alot of squares at once (like blocking off a hallway, for example.)

Out of combat: Continue using your knowledge skills to know everything, use disable device, knowledge (Arcitecture and Engineering) and your craft skills to alter the landscape to your and your party's benefit. Use your cantrips/orisions to detect magical items (and traps if your dm allows this) and to distract the enemy (ghost sound) or maintain a communication network for your party (message) Also to provide light,to stabalize dying characters so you have time to treat them with mundane healing, and to keep everyone and everything clean, and to make the group's food always taste like their favorite meals (prestidigitation).

If all this fails- Bring out your big guns: Your real spells. :smallamused:

As I said, not in any way optimized, but still offering you quite abit of utility. And even at this low level of optimization, you're still a spellcaster, you can still wipe the floor with most things.

[Sajiri]

Glad I could help :smallsmile:

For a specific build, not optimized by anymeans, but should be able to make maximum useage of skills, alchemical items, dischargable attacks, and low level magics:

Wiz 3/ Archivist 7/Mystic Theurge 10 (or switch the number of levels of archivist and wizard, or go with 5 each.)

Race: Human or Half-elf. Alignment: True Neutral
Important feat: Able Learner
Nice feats to have: Fell Drain, other metamagics that add riders to damage effects, Knowledge Devotion.

Cantrips commonly prepared: Amanuensis, Caltrops, Ghost Sound, Message

Orisons commonly prepared: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Stabalize

Since you're playing basically 3.P on a pathfinder chasis, you'll have infinate cantrips/orisions.

Skills Invested in: Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge (all, to varying degrees), Heal, Search (cc), Disable Device (cc) Decipher Script, Listen (cc), Spot (cc) Craft (Alchemy), Craft (others as you see fit, probably general use ones like metalworking and carpentry), Linguistics, Tumble (cc) (Note that because of your able learner feat, cross class skills will only cost you one skill point each)

Skill Trick: Collector of Stories

On your off days, spend your 3rd level and higher arcane spells casting explosive runes (and metamagiced versions thereof) Use your 4th level and higher divine spells casting sacred object and/or profane object (and metamagiced versions thereof) (as appropriate for the kinds of threats you expect to face) Also, craft alchemical items of any sort you could concieve as being useful.

Have a Handy Haversack filled with masterwork tools for your chosen craft skills, and a healer's kit, plus thieves' tools, also your vast store of explosive runes and sacred/profane objects. When you want a specific item, you'll be able to call it to hand without having to rumage.

In combat: Use your knowledge skills to identify creatures and know everything about them. Use your varrious alchemical items to play havoc with your foes. If that doesn't work, drop explosive runes at their feat (this is what tumble is for) and detonnate them via amanuensis. If your foes happen to be Good or Evil Outsiders, or Undead, or Animals, chuck the appropriate sacred/profane objects at them for painful touch attacks. Use knowledge devotion (if you have it) to help you with the touch attacks and add some damage. The caltrops cantrip is an effective area denial weapon against alot of foes, so long as you don't need to affect alot of squares at once (like blocking off a hallway, for example.)

Out of combat: Continue using your knowledge skills to know everything, use disable device, knowledge (Arcitecture and Engineering) and your craft skills to alter the landscape to your and your party's benefit. Use your cantrips/orisions to detect magical items (and traps if your dm allows this) and to distract the enemy (ghost sound) or maintain a communication network for your party (message) Also to provide light,to stabalize dying characters so you have time to treat them with mundane healing, and to keep everyone and everything clean, and to make the group's food always taste like their favorite meals (prestidigitation).

If all this fails- Bring out your big guns: Your real spells. :smallamused:

As I said, not in any way optimized, but still offering you quite abit of utility. And even at this low level of optimization, you're still a spellcaster, you can still wipe the floor with most things.



That...actually sounds like a lot of fun. And doesn't feel like it would make my friend feel out of place either (in our current one we're lvl 8 or 9 and she's still using the same weapon and armor from when we started and hasnt bought/used anything new since then)

I'm still open to other ideas though. Factotum does feel like it would work but again, I suspect our bbeg is a factotum and I have a bad grudge against that guy at the moment. I'll read up on these more.

[Flickerdart]

An Archivist would work wonders for your friend, then - you can cast Extended Greater Magic Weapon and Extended Magic Vestments at the beginning of the day (maybe get up a little early), and boost her weapons and armour all day without her being the wiser.

[Prime32]

Just as some clarification, I'm not trying to make Gandalf, or associate a class with him, or even find a class that can do a bit of everything. I'm primarily looking for a powerful caster, or at least one that appears powerful, who can get away with only using it's powerful abilities when necessary.

I like some of the suggestions so far- helping with knowledge and such while not fighting. I also really liked that explosive runes suggestions. I want something that can really make an impact with magic (or it can appear to be magic), but does so sparingly.All of the things where Gandalf's power was necessary had the [Evil] subtype. Gandalf is a paladin (formerly with a fire-based magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#elementalCommand)), using Smite Evil.
He makes more regular use of his good BAB, remove curse (traded for remove disease with an ACF), Aura of Courage and Special Mount.

[limejuicepowder]

Some kind of limited casting gish sounds like the way to go. A classic sorcadin will give you some good mileage, just choose subtle spells. Consider the battle and martial sorcerer ACF's to weigh the character more towards melee.

paladin 2/some sorc variant 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/something else 8 is pretty standard, I think.

Do you use psionics? Without the blatant signs of spellcasting a psionic character can be quite subtle. The game is on hiatus now, but I had been playing a wilder gish tank in a zombie survival game to good effect.

elan warblade 1 wilder 5 warblade +1 was the build so far. I took the improved elan resilience feat to increase the damage reduction abilities of the elan to 4 damage prevented per power point. For the most part, this character used his power points to soak up A LOT of damage. He could dish it out decently with power attack and emerald razor, but his main thing was toughness (and high armor via force shield). When it really got bad, he could drop some bombs like energy ray and swarm of crystals.

My DM OK'd me going in to jade phoenix mage, which was going to be my next level. They have some great abilities for gishes, like unique stances and turning spell slots in to melee damage (or power points, in my character's case).

[Metahuman1]

If your using tome of battle, I'd suggest a Ruby Knight Vindicator or a Jade Phionex Mage who only uses there actual spell casting once in a great while/in a crisis situation.

Or, a really spiffy option, see if your DM will let you make a Psionic version of one of those, and sup out cleric or wizard or Sorcerer with either Psion or Psy-warrior, or perhaps Pathfinder Soulknife.

[Slipperychicken]

Gandalf canonically had quite a bit of power, most likely as some kind of Outsider. He was just not allowed to intervene directly. Basically, his boss restricted him to logistical support.

Shadowfax was obviously a Phantom Steed, strongly supporting the idea Gandalf could at cast spells as at least a 5th level magic-user.

[Zombulian]

The first thing I thought of when I saw "caster that doesn't cast" was the PrC Charlatan. You should check it out. It's in a dragon magazine somewhere if your playing group allows them. A quick googling will tell you which issue, too lazy to do it myself right now. You can get into the class pretty dang easily with any startup, but Factotum is a great choice.

[ericgrau]

How about an artificer dumping much of his money into a ludicrously powerful but low charge staff? As in most spells cost 5-10 charges each, except maybe for some 1 charge minor tricks. Should fit the concept well given his staff dependence and infrequent use of spells. Besides that craft yourself some major defensive items. Not sure how to fit fighting in there though. It would be better if somebody else made you the staff and you were a wizard 1 / fighter X or someone with optimized UMD, but then your staff wouldn't be as neat and you'd need to visit an NPC visit every 3-4 levels. At lower levels you can use high level scrolls instead.

[Daftendirekt]

All of the things where Gandalf's power was necessary had the [Evil] subtype. Gandalf is a paladin (formerly with a fire-based magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#elementalCommand)), using Smite Evil.
He makes more regular use of his good BAB, remove curse (traded for remove disease with an ACF), Aura of Courage and Special Mount.

Obviously Gandalf is gestalt. Probably Ranger//Sorcadin, or maybe just a TWF Paladin//Wizard

[Flickerdart]

Shadowfax was obviously a Phantom Steed, strongly supporting the idea Gandalf could at cast spells as at least a 5th level magic-user.
No, Shadowfax was "king of the horses", not an illusion. Considering that Gandalf could summon and dismiss him, Special Mount seems quite likely.

[Nettlekid]

My vote is for Gandalf being a Druid. Wisdom-based, medium BAB, spells like Fire Seeds and Control Weather, Wild Empathy, and Shadowfax is an animal companion. Maybe he has a few Paladin levels and the Devoted Tracker feat.

[Sajiri]

As much as I enjoy trying to apply classes to characters, this thread really WASN'T about gandalf and what class he is or is not <_>

[TuggyNE]

As much as I enjoy trying to apply classes to characters, this thread really WASN'T about gandalf and what class he is or is not <_>

Every thread that doesn't mention ToB, monks, tiers, alignment, optimization, DM/player problems, or old-school philosophy is contractually bound to attempt statting up at least one character from literature or movies.

:smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Every thread that doesn't mention ToB, monks, tiers, alignment, optimization, DM/player problems, or old-school philosophy is contractually bound to attempt statting up at least one character from literature or movies.

:smallwink:

I'm not sure if you need more blue in this statement, or more green...

Really though, if you are wanting a character who is okay in combat but occasionally casts a spell or two which is very effective, I'd suggest a Sorcadin build.

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5 is the basic chassis. You get:

* 10 BAB out of 12 levels, so higher than Medium BAB
* 10% ASF mitigation, so you can now wear Mithral Chain Shirt without ASF. You might also be able to get away with Feycrafted Mithral Twilight Full Plate for no ASF. A Twilight Mithral Heavy Shield also generates no ASF
* Your casting stat to all saving throws
* Massive boost to buffing ability. Auto-Quicken Abjuration spells of up to third level.

[Gildedragon]

So I watched the hobbit the other week, and the way Gandalf is portrayed got me thinking about some things. I always liked how in middle-earth, the wizards use their power sparingly. You know they're powerful, but they refrain from too much, or are subtle about it, so when they DO use their magic, it makes them seem even more powerful than if they were throwing spells around everywhere.

I really like that concept, and I'd want to make a character like it too sometime. A caster who doesn't cast may not be the most strategic idea, but the person that I play with is very different to me- she focuses more on roleplaying and is, shall we say, very unoptimized. That's okay when she likes it, and I won't say I'm particularly into optimization, but I tend to dwarf her considerably and simply not using abilities, or using weaker options so that she doesn't feel useless isn't exactly fun to me, so I thought this might be a good way to work it into the roleplaying side- only using the strong spells and abilities when necessary.

The character would need to be sufficient/playable while NOT casting, even if it's not all that strong, but a hybrid class who is, for example, both a melee and a caster, doesn't quite conjure the image of powerful wizard/mage/whatever when the melee is an important part of the class's 'image.'

What would be some suitable classes/builds? I'm not necessarily looking for anything indepth yet, just an idea I'd like to mull over for our next campaign.

We play pathfinder but use any approved 3.5 content and just convert rules where necessary.

It depends on what sort of 'wizard' role you want to fill, in addition to the general non castyness.
Factotum is a good start as it gets you a lot of skills and moderate decentness at almost everything.
PRCing into chamaleon is a good move too, get a whole bunch of almost as goods can benefit this character.
there are a couple other jack of all trades int classes, the savant from dragon compendium comes to mind.

If your spells are not as dependent on saves (either by being buffs or summons or no-saves) going for Illumian with the cast-from-dex/str power-word is a good option.

[Darth_Versity]

Paladin 2, Battle Sorcerer 4, Abjurant Champion 5, Swift Blade 9

That only loses 1 BAB and 5 spellcasting levels (but CL=BAB), allows you to cast in light armor, add CHA to saves and makes a hell of a combatant with only 2 spells (Shield and Haste).

Basically allows you to play a lightly armored warrior most of the time and throw your spell mastery around when needed. The biggest problem with Battle Sorcerer is the loss of spells known/day, but since your being conservative with your spellcasting that wouldn't be a problem.

[Fyermind]

This is how I play artificers actually. I keep very powerful scrolls in my scroll case ready to pull if the situation turns sour, but generally, I act like a fighter with really cool gear instead of feats.