Building a Navy / Merchant Marine

[Chilingsworth]

Hello playground!

Alright this one I really need some help with.

As I've stated in previous threads, I'm building (or rather desgining) an empire. I've already gotten alot of help from you guys concerning that empire's economics, government, ground and airforces. Now I need a navy. I have far less of an idea how to go about designing one than I had about any of my other questions so far.

Also, not long after the start of the campaign, while en route to deliver arms and supplies to an allied orcish horde, we were assulted by a group of aquatic elves claiming divine mandate to stop us. I therefore suspect that we will have to be ready for war with a nearby aquatic elf polity of unknown strength, or at least to defend against raids from such. This is of course in addition to the usual purposes of a navy: patroling our sealanes, defending against attacks by mundane pirates and enemy nations, and as a means of power projection.

What would be some good courses of action for me to consider?

EDIT: Even if a conventional navy as such is nearly useless, what about a merchant marine? I expect to have fishing vessels, as well as whale. walrus, and seal hunting vessels. Not to mention maratime trade.

[Yukitsu]

Which era of naval combat are you looking at here? Is gunpowder a thing?

[Chilingsworth]

Which era of naval combat are you looking at here? Is gunpowder a thing?

As far as I know, gunpowder is not a thing. There world is fairly high magic, though. About as high magic as Forgotten Realms, I want to say.

[Silva Stormrage]

Could you link the previous thread so those who didn't read it can get a basis of the empire you are making?

First question is honestly why you need a traditional navy with boats. Aquatic creatures would just tear into those (Adamantine weapons and puncturing holes in the bottom of the ship. Plus ships are ludicrously expensive.

If you have an airforce you might just want to make some kind of aircraft carrier type ships and leave it at that. Look in stronghold builder's guide to make sure the aircraft carriers ARE immune to adamantine puncturing their hulls.

[Chilingsworth]

Could you link the previous thread so those who didn't read it can get a basis of the empire you are making?

First question is honestly why you need a traditional navy with boats. Aquatic creatures would just tear into those (Adamantine weapons and puncturing holes in the bottom of the ship. Plus ships are ludicrously expensive.

If you have an airforce you might just want to make some kind of aircraft carrier type ships and leave it at that. Look in stronghold builder's guide to make sure the aircraft carriers ARE immune to adamantine puncturing their hulls.

First, I can't use the stronghold builder's guide.

As for my previous threads, sure:

An Evil Prosperous Society (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268169)
Improving D&D GDP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263729)
How to Build, Use and Defend Against an Airforce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14389668)
Drones and Cruise Missiles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266958)
APC's, IFV's, and Tanks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267225)
Mass Media in D&D (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268068)
Soildiers' Gear and Personal Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267323)

My ideas and the suggestions I've received are spread over all those threads. I wont be able to use alot of them (example, I'm not counting on having a "mechanized" force, or hunter-killer bots.)

[avr]

Cannons aren't that important against aquatic elves attacking from underwater; you won't see them in time. Likewise pre-gunpowder artillery. Depth charges might be handy, admittedly.

IMO you need magic or monsters or tricks here. Ordinary human warriors fighting at a disadvantage and largely without useful ranged weapons will just die horribly if they try to fight underwater. Ignoring them until they come on deck will get your ships sunk.

On tricks, you might be able to pull nets, ropes or chains along the underside of the ship to catch & dislodge swimmers trying to put holes in the hull.

If the aquatic elves score some early victories despite your navy they might try to raid ports. Or, they might try to raid them while your navy is being built a la Sir Francis Drake. You will need a fast reaction force to deal with these, fortifications may not be reliable.

[Chilingsworth]

I know a conventional navy wont be especially useful against aquatic elves, but I expect to face conventional threats as well, at least occasionally.

Of course, the raid sent against us might have been a fluke. Or the elves might be willing to negotiate once we've won our civil war and are the legitimate government. Also, we might be able to find aquatic allies (shuagin, maybe?, maybe locathah or merfolk? maybe even koa-toa?)

The question then becomes, what can a mostly land-bound society offer to entice aquatic allies?

[Shloogorgh]

Stormwrack is a great read for naval options

Both Stormwrack and Forgotten Realms have smokepowder, an alchemical answer to gunpowder. Get the bombard canon weapons from Stormwrack and the rules for working them, and then look to Heroes of Battle for special abilities that can be added to them

[Flickerdart]

The advantage of a warship in real life is that you can very quickly transport large amounts of people and heavy siege weapons around. Siege weapons in D&D are rubbish, and no amount of mooks are going to matter pretty much ever. Your best bet is probably to create some big fat aquatic undead, put low-level Clerics who can cast Command Undead and Water Breathing (or who don't need to breathe) on top of them, and then put each of these units under the command of a more powerful spellcaster capable of warding the beasties after they've been commanded to make similar tactics by the enemy impossible. Alternatively, the clerics prepare nothing but Command Undead and ready actions to counter it. As an alternative to Clerics, you can use Spellstitched undead, but they won't be able to counter anything, so consider awakening your undead leviathans so that they at least get a saving throw.

[avr]

Buy aquatic mercs with metalwork, magic, or tasty slaves. If they're going to move in for the long term, transit taxes on your merchant shipping might appeal to the more civilised among them.

You have an air force, right? Depending on how far out you need to patrol this may be able to support or supplant armed ships.

[Chilingsworth]

The advantage of a warship in real life is that you can very quickly transport large amounts of people and heavy siege weapons around. Siege weapons in D&D are rubbish, and no amount of mooks are going to matter pretty much ever. Your best bet is probably to create some big fat aquatic undead, put low-level Clerics who can cast Command Undead and Water Breathing (or who don't need to breathe) on top of them, and then put each of these units under the command of a more powerful spellcaster capable of warding the beasties after they've been commanded to make similar tactics by the enemy impossible. Alternatively, the clerics prepare nothing but Command Undead and ready actions to counter it. As an alternative to Clerics, you can use Spellstitched undead, but they won't be able to counter anything, so consider awakening your undead leviathans so that they at least get a saving throw.

Those sound like some good ideas. I'll still need ships, though. For trade and fishing and other harvesting. I might also need to engage in amphibious assaults. Also, even with the aquatic undead plan, they will need bases of operation.

Maybe I should be trying to form a merchant marine?

[ArcturusV]

Well, you definitely should approach the diplomatic angle for a natural ally underneath the waves. It'll give you a capability that you otherwise are sorely lacking and shore up your defenses.

As far as what you can give them? Plenty of things. One common trade rule that is often forgotten is just mundane objects. For example the Sea Elves may not exactly have an abundance of something as simple and obvious as... I dunno... cheese. And while it's dirt cheap to you? It's an exotic delicacy for the highest levels of society for them and can easily become a trade commodity that they honestly have no way around. I mean some DMs will set things up so more obvious things like "Well we have steel and you can't forge because you're underwater!" will be nullified by some reason. But seldom is something as simple as that taken into consideration.

The goal in building a navy though is knowing what your goals are to start with. I'll give a simple run down of various naval doctrines so you can pick which one fits your campaign and your situation the best.

The simplest one is the "Fleet in Being" ideal. This is ideal if your nation really doesn't have a naval presence to start with. It's also at best a transitional stage that you need to build out of. The idea here is to have various Frigates and advanced Ships of the Line in smaller number that are comfortable operating on their own. They don't seek out battle with the enemy, but merely try to avoid contact as long as possible. The sheer fact that you HAVE anything (Much less that it's big and dangerous enough to be a threat to any lone ship it comes across) lets you pin down the forces of much bigger navies and force them to react to you more than the numbers should actually suggest.

Second is Sea-Lane Control. This is only really important if you have overseas Trade. And really that's the reason you build navies in the first place typically, to support your commerce. It's about building smaller vessels which are somewhat heavily armed and fast, have a decent number of marines, etc. Your goal here is not to sink the enemy navy, but to avoid them sinking your trade shipping. Building a fleet of smaller vessels like this is easy because you can typically re-purpose commercial shipwrights and small ports to produce these vessels. It also gives you the fast ships you may want to raid an enemy's commerce and sink their relatively unguarded transports.

Third is the Blockade style. This is dependent on you having a superior navy to the enemy to start with. Which means it's heavy on resources, your nation needs some sort of naval tradition, good officers, good sailors, etc. Take your fleet, stand outside their port. Prevent their navy from leaving, commerce ships coming to them. Only really works if you are fighting on the land as well as part of a siege of sorts. It's necessary if you want to take cities by siege, but otherwise is a low priority for you. Can have some minor use in bottling up a naval power who might otherwise challenge you while the remainder of your navy rampages unchecked against nations who don't have a strong naval presence. Typically you want ships with good, heavy broadsides for this. Doesn't matter if they're all that mobile or not, you're just looking to park for a long time. Need some fast ships to help keep them supplied and do courier runs, or use Magic.

Fourth is an Amphibious Assault style. This means training up a lot of marines, light armored, fast, hard hitting warriors who can fight on ships, in shallow water, and on land. It means developing a lot of low draft boats that aren't going to be very sea worthy in general, but are going to be able to go into shallows where most other ships would have issues. All about doing the Viking thing, and lightning fast raids against unwarned towns. You roll up onto their shore, disembark and pillage, and are gone before anyone can know it. Also this force is good for establishing a beachhead for heavier, other traditional land forces, you'll need them to secure yourself a place to land things that don't exactly do "Off the boat" tactics well like cavalry.

Just remember, a Navy is purpose built. You don't build a navy "Just in case" like you might an army, or as a standing force without real purpose until someone does something to you. Navies are built to accomplish particular goals that can't be accomplished by other means.

[Chilingsworth]

And again ArcturusV comes up with the goods!

You're amazing, bud. Are you a military historian or something, or a talented amateur? In any case, thanks again. :smallbiggrin:

So, I'm thinking I'll need to start with a Fleet in Being. However, I expect to have to swiftly advance to effective sealane control. Even if the maratime trade I have is minimal, I still expect to have a robust fishing industry. Also I'm likely to face coastal raids.

Of course, if I can manage succesfull diplomacy, this all becomes moot (or at least much less urgent.) I just don't have high hopes for diplomacy with the aquatic elves, since first contact was with a strike team that had been given a divine quest to stop us.

[ArcturusV]

Well, every society has it's radicals... hopefully.

Or at the very least can have their people of influence bought and influenced in turn.

Remember that since you are in fact doing a magical setting "Carrier Operations" is entirely possible and logical. Having a ship that can serve as a launch platform for your fliers is a big advantage you should take.

And nah, no military historian. I'm just interested in stuff like that so I do reading.

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm, carrier opperations.

How many "aircraft" would I need to make an acceptably effective carrier wing?

Also, I hope to use spider eaters as my primary aerial mounts. How large a ship would I have to have to hold enough of them (and their pilots and gear, of course)?

[ArcturusV]

Not familiar with the monster off the top of my head. And honestly the answer comes down to the realities of the Navies you are facing.

Typically you'll want three rotations. One as a "Strike" group, meaning that you have enough fliers out there that they can sink a ship. Fireballs/firebombs as necessary to burn down what is probably the mostly wooden ships you'll face. How much this takes depends on how skilled your enemy is and how big their ships are. Though you can do a lot of damage with as little as 3-5 with some good hits. Burn up their sails? Dead in the water. Get a good fire going? Instant win.

Meanwhile you will also want one group on Combat Air Patrol, to prevent the same thing from happening to you, they need to have a loadout which can stop other airborne threats from reaching you before they are in range.

And you'll want one group on "Downtime", resting their mounts and riders so they can rotate out or be used as a rapid response to an evolving threat.

How much this all requires depends on setting particulars, as stated, but you're looking at a minimum of 15. This would probably require the largest ship you could build to support such operations as living mounts would take up a lot more space and maintenance than any machine.

[The Gilded Duke]

One idea I've been toying with, but haven't gotten fully working yet. Take some Livewood trees, either fabricate or use multiple castings of wood shape to reshape them into the form of ships, or amphibious vessels.

Get some method of casting Awaken without an xp component (Heir of Siberys, Dweomerkeeper etc) Use it with some method of maximizing, such as maximize rods. Awaken each tree ship as a colossal size animated object with 18 Int, Wis, and Charisma and 32 Hit Dice.

Now here is where it gets a little trickier, you will need Psychic Reformation too give your ships feats and skills. It might be possible to replicate Psychic Reformation with Limited Wish to avoid the xp costs. This would set up your standard naval ship as an epic level colossal sized monster with all the feats to go with it. Incarnum and Tome of Battle feats would be especially useful.

Even if you have to pay for all the spells, it should end up cheaper then most normal ships.

[ArcturusV]

Well, most of his army is level 2-5 if I recall, so I wasn't really presuming for high level magics and the sort of stuff a PC could pull out their hat. Certainly seems interesting though.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, most of his army is level 2-5 if I recall, so I wasn't really presuming for high level magics and the sort of stuff a PC could pull out their hat. Certainly seems interesting though.

That's the estimates for the bulk of my army, yes. However, there should be significant numbers of higher level NPC's available. They wouldn't be in the regular army because they could better serve the state by building infastructure and weapons. Still, I serriously doubt that anyone in the country would be able to pull off the awakened ships in sufficent numbers to be useful.

As for space requirements for spider eaters... The things are large creatures with 5ft reach. Since they have good manuverability, they would be theoretically capable of hovering in their "hangers." So, I figure they should be able to hover in the middle of them without being able to touch the sides. Therefore, a 30x30x30 space should be sufficent. Of course, they would get out regularly (on missions) so its not like they'd be cooped up in there.

The problem would be getting them in and out of the hangers. How might that be efficently accomplished?

[ArcturusV]

Wish I still had that book, "Dragons of the Emerald Sea". Fantasy fiction, but dealt with a lot of the logistics of having a "Wyvern Carrier" in a fantasy setting. So yeah, wish I could crib answers off it.

Well, even if they have good maneuverability, they are probably going to want to be able to sit down and rest. And you will have times where it's not really fit to fly and need to be able to stow them all at once.

Logically the best option would be to have the entire back half of the ship given over to "Flight Operations". The back half is the deck where your fliers take off and land. Have the rest of the stuff for the fliers below that. You'll need a lot of wide open space to move them up from where they sleep/fed, to where you can arm/mount them as needed (You don't want to keep animals harnessed and equipped up 24/7 typically), then a ramp up to the flight deck where they can take off and land.

[Chilingsworth]

Wish I still had that book, "Dragons of the Emerald Sea". Fantasy fiction, but dealt with a lot of the logistics of having a "Wyvern Carrier" in a fantasy setting. So yeah, wish I could crib answers off it.

Well, even if they have good maneuverability, they are probably going to want to be able to sit down and rest. And you will have times where it's not really fit to fly and need to be able to stow them all at once.

Logically the best option would be to have the entire back half of the ship given over to "Flight Operations". The back half is the deck where your fliers take off and land. Have the rest of the stuff for the fliers below that. You'll need a lot of wide open space to move them up from where they sleep/fed, to where you can arm/mount them as needed (You don't want to keep animals harnessed and equipped up 24/7 typically), then a ramp up to the flight deck where they can take off and land.

I meant a 30x30x30 hanger per mount. But yeah, generally that sounds like a good outline.

[ArcturusV]

At this point you're probably talking about creating the largest ship in the world, by far, to be able to do this. I mean with 15 of those, plus a prep deck, plus a flight deck, and room for supplies, and room to work in those spaces, you're talking about what, maybe 10,125 cubic feet of space? And that's for only half the ship at most. Still need a large crew to be able to handle such a bulky, unweildy vessel.

Not that this is an impossible thing... just know this is like trying to build the Battleship Yamato during the 1860s as far as shipbuilding breakthroughs go. You'll have a carrier that is probably 4-5 times as large as even the largest warships.

[Juntao112]

Ever watch Captain Planet?

Yeah, I went there. I am advocating scorching the earth - or in this case, poisoning the water.

What's the most toxic thing you can get your hands on for this battle? Mercury? Lead? How about creating a fungal bloom with fertilizer and magic that consumes all the oxygen in the water, resulting in a dead zone?

[Vaz]

If you can install ships with a Portal or Gate, that removes the need for resupply runs, and as soon as the enemy attack, you can send your air force/marines through the portal.

As soon as the attack wings start to take damage, you can cycle through your airforce, and rest your others. If the enemy board, you can send through your marines; Bearded or even Horned Devils do brilliant at this, thanks to reach and proficiency etc. Of course, Horned devils can be used to attack as well once the enemy has disengaged; fly after it, and then summon enemies onto the enemy ship.

You can change this with alignment; Roc, Dragon, Balor, Solar, etc.

In its most basic form it allows you to at least have comfortable living conditions during a watch, where they are all well rested, and properly cared for. No surgery in a tiny hold below the waterline, just carry out the battle and have a replacent just step through the portal.

[Chilingsworth]

At this point you're probably talking about creating the largest ship in the world, by far, to be able to do this. I mean with 15 of those, plus a prep deck, plus a flight deck, and room for supplies, and room to work in those spaces, you're talking about what, maybe 10,125 cubic feet of space? And that's for only half the ship at most. Still need a large crew to be able to handle such a bulky, unweildy vessel.

Not that this is an impossible thing... just know this is like trying to build the Battleship Yamato during the 1860s as far as shipbuilding breakthroughs go. You'll have a carrier that is probably 4-5 times as large as even the largest warships.

Well, could I get away with less hanger space? Also, I might be able to work with flights of three each, maybe? The main problem with building an ubership is there aren't published stats for them.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. You could always short it up. Or have several smaller Carriers working together so you have 3 ships with only a third of the size.

[Chilingsworth]

Ever watch Captain Planet?

Yeah, I went there. I am advocating scorching the earth - or in this case, poisoning the water.

What's the most toxic thing you can get your hands on for this battle? Mercury? Lead? How about creating a fungal bloom with fertilizer and magic that consumes all the oxygen in the water, resulting in a dead zone?

The problem with this is that it would hurt me, too. Besides which, I doubt I could manage it quickly enough for the aquatic elves to be unable to stop it. I might consider it if the elves turned out to be an existental threat, though.

[ArcturusV]

Though just for the sake of variety, and because I seldom see them used, ask if your DM will let there be a nation of those Dolphin type people from Stormwrack (Forgot the name, someone stole my book), that can serve as your underwater allies, or at least a neutral force that you can make peaceful contact with and maybe an alliance.

I just never really see them used. It will also be less "Token Evil", and as they are air breathers and not Fish People it should be easier for both societies to get along well. And since your Token Evil Organization isn't Species Based, no sweat.

[Chilingsworth]

Though just for the sake of variety, and because I seldom see them used, ask if your DM will let there be a nation of those Dolphin type people from Stormwrack (Forgot the name, someone stole my book), that can serve as your underwater allies, or at least a neutral force that you can make peaceful contact with and maybe an alliance.

I just never really see them used. It will also be less "Token Evil", and as they are air breathers and not Fish People it should be easier for both societies to get along well. And since your Token Evil Organization isn't Species Based, no sweat.

Hmm, I'll mention them to him.

That might conflict with an idea I just had, though: ships powered by integrated undead whales (probably skeletal whales since the big ones have too many HD to be easily zombified.) If equipped with a +6 strength item, each catchalot or baleen whale skeleton can carry almost 10 tonnes and (with a captain capable of casting command undead, or a custom item of that spell) would potentially only need one active crew member. Now, what would happen if you harnessed several such skeletons and built a platform on top of them? Assuming you had a means to ensure they could hear your commands, and a way to target them to reissue those commands at need, could such a system work something like azipods? (http://www.marineoffshoretechnology.net/vessel-efficiency/propulsion-systems-incorporate-steering-capacity)

EDIT, getting them to work like that would probably require a crew of more than 1.

[ArcturusV]

Would a whale skeleton have the buoyancy to actually float? That'd be my primary concern. Secondary being the ability for even low level enemy Sea Elf Clerics or something to cause greivous harm to them. Bless Water is what, a first level spell? They'll have plenty of water to bless. Holy Water bypasses most Damage Reduction and such if I remember right. So a small strike team of 1st level clerics could end up doing some serious damage to your ship with little to counter it other than hoping your own underwater allies can do something about it.

I mean it's a cool theme. Just logic problems that the DM might hose you with. Not to mention losing your ship because you ran into a high level cleric who can turn/destroy undead is probably going to be a horrible, horrible result.

[Chilingsworth]

Would a whale skeleton have the buoyancy to actually float? That'd be my primary concern. Secondary being the ability for even low level enemy Sea Elf Clerics or something to cause greivous harm to them. Bless Water is what, a first level spell? They'll have plenty of water to bless. Holy Water bypasses most Damage Reduction and such if I remember right. So a small strike team of 1st level clerics could end up doing some serious damage to your ship with little to counter it other than hoping your own underwater allies can do something about it.

I mean it's a cool theme. Just logic problems that the DM might hose you with. Not to mention losing your ship because you ran into a high level cleric who can turn/destroy undead is probably going to be a horrible, horrible result.

yeah, those could all be problems (technically, creatures with swim speeds keep those when skeletized, so I think the buoyancy thing might not be a problem. Still, out of that list, it's possibly the least serrious problem, lol.)

Ok, so at minimum, a carrier should have space for three fliers, their mounts, and associated gear and supplies. Or, a way to portal the everything in. I don't think the craft portal feat exists in my dm's world. greater teleport and teleportation circle do, though. What happens if you target a moving "location" like a ship with those spells? If those could work, I could just have ships act as mobile fortresses with near instant access to air support.

[ArcturusV]

As far as I know, nothing about Teleportation Circle really is screwed up by people moving. Seen games where people had it on all sorts of mobile things.

But yeah. You have 3-5. I'd go towards 5 because at that point you're not talking about TOO much additional room to be unweildly and it's good to have back ups in case there's a wrench in the plan. Combat losses, something screwing with your Teleportation, etc.

Redundancy is something you should aim for. So that no one magic bullet completely eliminates your navy. That's part of why navies are typically sound military investments for countries. Your ideal is that they should be able to take a variety of punishment and still be able to limp into port and get repaired. Or at the very least that some sort of one shot ability like Disjunction, Dispel Magic, Turn Undead, etc, isn't a fatal flaw that kills you off.

This is the real reason why building mundane ships is probably the best idea. Wood hulls, maybe backed with copper. Easy to repair. While things can screw with it, sure, it's also easy to fix. You won't end up massively screwed by any one action.

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm, yeah I guess mundane ships are best. What about detection systems, though? Could trained whales or porpoises act as sentries for the fleet? What about low-flying dire bat riders? Actually, longrange aerial detection systems would be nice too. (The shapechange into a formian queen and use mindsight trick wont work because niether shapechange nor mindsight exists in this world.)

[ArcturusV]

Well ideally your Combat Air Patrol group would work as short ranged Reconnaissance. Of course spells like Scry are low level enough that major threats should be known and pinged far ahead of time. If you can make an underwater ally of some nature, then that can also serve as a general intelligence asset as they would probably know or notice any large movements near their areas and be able to relay it to you.

But your CAP there should be flying out at such a distance that they can spot things and relay information to you as needed. If it's further out than that, chances are you wouldn't be able to respond to it anyway or it hasn't really noticed you. And if it is hunting for you, you should spot it soon enough that you can decide to engage or hightail it out of there as needed.

Since you use spellcasters in general on stuff I wish you could use their familiars for some cheap scouting. Just have Wizards who join the Navy choose things like salmon or seagull familiars or something. But that 1 mile range limitation on their ability means it's not going to be that useful. Unless there is something that improves that range that I don't know about or can't remember off the top of my head.

Just the problem with long range recon is that barring magic, it's going to be hard to use it. Which isn't a deadly issue. Just makes it a bit more difficult, and has the inherent weaknesses of depending solely on magic to be able to function.

[TuggyNE]

But that 1 mile range limitation on their ability means it's not going to be that useful. Unless there is something that improves that range that I don't know about or can't remember off the top of my head.

I remember something that really cranks it up (to 10 miles or something), but I don't remember what it was, though it may have been in a Dragon magazine.

[8wGremlin]

Ranger spell 1st level Lay of the land


You instantly gain an overview of the area around you. Lay of the land gives basic information relevant to major landmarks, such as rivers, lakes, and settlements (of at least hamlet size). It indicates the direction and distance to each from the current location. You have a good understanding of the terrain up to 50 miles from your current location. Unlike find the path, this spell does not give information on traps, passwords, or impediments to a journey.

should work with underwater settlements, and underwater landmarks, such as reefs...

Also a Binder with Malphas bound gets 'Bird’s Eye Viewing' which summons a dove/raven which you can sense through, unlimited range, unlimited time...

[Chilingsworth]

Ranger spell 1st level Lay of the land



should work with underwater settlements, and underwater landmarks, such as reefs...

Also a Binder with Malphas bound gets 'Bird’s Eye Viewing' which summons a dove/raven which you can sense through, unlimited range, unlimited time...

Unfortunately, my dm doesn't use ToM. But, which book is the spell in?

[8wGremlin]

Spell Compendium pg 131, but there is an earlier version in another book (think manual of the planes) its a ranger 1st level spell

[Chilingsworth]

Spell Compendium pg 131, but there is an earlier version in another book (think manual of the planes) its a ranger 1st level spell

Thanks. And, looking at it It seems like it would be quite useful. Even if it wouldn't work to map the seafloor, it would be handy for intell gathering on campaigns.