Dragon as a character

[Elycium]

Hi people, how is everyone?

Well, it has been a while since I passed whit my question about the wizards (thanks for the kind’s answers, you all people are awesome, by the way).
But now, my question is a little different, we are having a nice campaign in which the DM, did let us choose play as creatures, some used knolls and others outsiders, but I decided to go as a True Dragon.

Yes, I know what may think some of you, sure is like "Why are you even doing that? The dragons are difficult to use as a characters and have a lot of problems whit the level´s adjustment", and certainly, is true. A dragon is hard to go for a lot of things, but in my defense I say that the dragons are my favorite razes, I mean who don’t want to have a huge lizard that can fly and breathe fire?

But well, now to the important stuff: My character is a True Gold Dragon (wyrmling) whit 1 level of Paladin. Whit the level adjustment and the Class Lv calculated it would be like a character of Lv14.

In all your might and knowledge I ask the next: How would you make it a strong character? How would you construct it to make it tough and that can actually kill the things that I will fare in the campaign? Any tips will be highly appreciated :)


And again, sorry for the bad english that you may all read T_T

[Venusaur]

If you want a Dragon with less LA, try a Steel Dragon Wyrmling from Dragons of Faerun. It will give you more levels to play around with, and you can get into prestige classes like abjurant champion or eldritch knight, especially if you can use the Sovereign Dragon Archetypes for more casting.

[Gavinfoxx]

The only dragons you should consider, if you are restricted by ecl at all, is wyrmling steel or wyrmling tome. Everything else sucks for the amount of rhd and la you pay. And of course you want to be a full caster on top, to stack their spellcasting they already have.

[JeminiZero]

There is also Dragonwrought Kobold. Which although powerful, generally plays in a completely different manner than the giant firebreathing lizard you are hoping for... at least before you get polymorph.

Aside from that, your best bet is to see if your DM will let you take some homebrew playable dragon class.

[avr]

First, 8 RHD + 4 LA + 1 level paladin = ECL 13. Not 14.

Second, your main advantage over most other characters of a similar level is that you move fast. You're too fragile to stand and fight CR 14 brutes and have no spells and only a level or two of class abilities. Hence, Flyby Attack & similar will be necessary to survive. Beware archers.

Third, you might like to reconsider this character; I suspect it isn't going to play like the mighty dragon you probably want.

[Elycium]

hahahaha technically, the dragon started at age of 2, so whit the level adjustement ig goes to 14 :p


Second, your main advantage over most other characters of a similar level is that you move fast. You're too fragile to stand and fight CR 14 brutes and have no spells and only a level or two of class abilities. Hence, Flyby Attack & similar will be necessary to survive. Beware archers.

Thanks for the ideas.


Third, you might like to reconsider this character; I suspect it isn't going to play like the mighty dragon you probably want.

I already knew that since the very beginning, and even more after the DM advice. But as I said before, I am not doing this because I want to be God, but because I like the creature :)


If you want a Dragon with less LA, try a Steel Dragon Wyrmling from Dragons of Faerun. It will give you more levels to play around with, and you can get into prestige classes like abjurant champion or eldritch knight, especially if you can use the Sovereign Dragon Archetypes for more casting.


The only dragons you should consider, if you are restricted by ecl at all, is wyrmling steel or wyrmling tome. Everything else sucks for the amount of rhd and la you pay. And of course you want to be a full caster on top, to stack their spellcasting they already have.

Thanks, I will be looking at it :)


Aside from that, your best bet is to see if your DM will let you take some homebrew playable dragon class.

Sadly, we aren’t allowed T_T part of the challenge, or something like that.

[LTwerewolf]

If you have access to the dragonomicon, look through the prestige classes there, there are a bunch that are dragon only. Also try to see if your DM will let you buy off your level adjustment. Without Level adjustment, dragons are actually pretty good gishes as you're probably aware. Dragon hit dice are the least terrible of all the hit dice, especially without the LA, so don't be afraid to nab them. They're basically more awesome sorcerer hit dice. Can also find a way to magically or extraplanarly age yourself to cheese out an extra age category.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you have access to the dragonomicon, look through the prestige classes there, there are a bunch that are dragon only. Also try to see if your DM will let you buy off your level adjustment. Without Level adjustment, dragons are actually pretty good gishes as you're probably aware. Dragon hit dice are the least terrible of all the hit dice, especially without the LA, so don't be afraid to nab them. They're basically more awesome sorcerer hit dice. Can also find a way to magically or extraplanarly age yourself to cheese out an extra age category.

...you are aware of the ridiculous requirements for the Dragon PrCs, right? And I do mean ridiculous.

Bestow Curse should age you nicely.

If you're going for a stealthier character, Shadow Dragons aren't too bad, given their abilities.

[Elycium]

If you have access to the dragonomicon, look through the prestige classes there, there are a bunch that are dragon only. Also try to see if your DM will let you buy off your level adjustment. Without Level adjustment, dragons are actually pretty good gishes as you're probably aware. Dragon hit dice are the least terrible of all the hit dice, especially without the LA, so don't be afraid to nab them. They're basically more awesome sorcerer hit dice. Can also find a way to magically or extraplanarly age yourself to cheese out an extra age category.

Well, this are some good ideas, specially the last one.


If you're going for a stealthier character, Shadow Dragons aren't too bad, given their abilities.

Stealth? O_O

What is that? It can be eated?

[Mato]

Thanks, I will be looking at it :)3.0 Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a).

Dragons of Faerun updated them, notably the inclusion of LA (it's 2 @ wyrmling) and the Polymorph SLA was revised to I think Alter Shape. I know it does limit you to small/medium humanoid shapes only which is a lot more balanced.

[Elycium]

3.0 Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a).

Dragons of Faerun updated them, notably the inclusion of LA (it's 2 @ wyrmling) and the Polymorph SLA was revised to I think Alter Shape. I know it does limit you to small/medium humanoid shapes only which is a lot more balanced.

Thanks for the link :)

[Kuulvheysoon]

3.0 Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a).

Dragons of Faerun updated them, notably the inclusion of LA (it's 2 @ wyrmling) and the Polymorph SLA was revised to I think Alter Shape. I know it does limit you to small/medium humanoid shapes only which is a lot more balanced.

That's a 3.5e link - note the DR x/magic, as opposed to DR x/+1 (or +2, +3, etc...)

[killem2]

Are you allowed to use dragon magazine?

[Elycium]

Well, the GM did let me use the Dracomicon and Dragons of Faerum.

[LTwerewolf]

...you are aware of the ridiculous requirements for the Dragon PrCs, right? And I do mean ridiculous.

Bestow Curse should age you nicely.

If you're going for a stealthier character, Shadow Dragons aren't too bad, given their abilities.

They're only ridiculous if you're a wyrmling/very young/etc. if you've got some age categories then they get well within the realms of possibilities. Keep in mine many are intended for epic levels.

[Mato]

TDs them selves are Epic Creatures. Most if not all hit the Epic side of HD by the time they are a "mature adult".

That's right. In comparison, about the time you are expected to suffer from a mid-life crisis, dragons become epic.
That's just how awesome they are.

[Elycium]

TDs them selves are Epic Creatures. Most if not all hit the Epic side of HD by the time they are a "mature adult".

That's right. In comparison, about the time you are expected to suffer from a mid-life crisis, dragons become epic.
That's just how awesome they are.



hahahahahaha xD

One reason more to like dragons lol

[Gavinfoxx]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wOEp_nYJq6QJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D9064.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mdYqcHwJ7R4J:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D9064.5

You should read that... here's a summary! Also, use these rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm


Steel (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Small
Alignment: LN or LG
Adjustments: +2 con/cha
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 30ft
Breath: line of acid, 1d6 & cone of poison, 1 con damage then 1 min later again.
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid, SR 16, spells; sorcerer 1st + cleric + knowledge & trickery
Spellcasting: Wrymling

VS

Tome (dragon magazine #343)
Stats: 3HD/5LA, Tiny
Alignment: usually lawful neutral
Adjustments: -4 str, -2 con, +4 wis/cha, +6 int.
Natural AC: +1 & +1 insight
Speed: land 20ft, fly 90ft (good).
Breath: Shot with a 5ft blast radius of sonic, piercing, bludgeoning, or fire, 1d8.
Qualities: Physical Frailty, Arcane Sight, Precognition, Telepathy 100ft, SR 11, spells; sorcerer 3rd + knowledge & auto knows all divination/conjuration
Spellcasting: Wrymling

***

Extended Details on their statblocks

Starting ECL goes to the Steel with it's availability from level 5 on with LA buyoff.
By ECL 8 they both have 3rd level spellcasting.
Steel can learn any cleric spell, the Tome knows all divination & conjuration spells without using known slots.
By ECL 9 the Steel can pay off the rest of it's LA, for 55% of the game the Steel knows a higher spell level than the Tome.
Steel dragons can have 20 while the Tome is limited to 16 allowing the Steel to obtain more powerful class traits.
Both can take Loredrake, both lose their domain access by doing so, the Steel loses cleric spells but the Tome still knows divine/conjor spells.

Steel has faster speed, can swim, poison breath and can hit more enemies with it's normal breath weapon.
Tome has bigger bonuses to mental scores, Steel don't have penalties to con.
The Tome's maneuverability is better but it's natural weapons & reach are reduced by one size.
Steel has one point of AC more but the Tome sports +1 insight to AC (does not stack with foresight and such) which is applied to Touch Attacks.
Tome has a 3/day Alternate Form and the Steel has 5/day Alternate Form.
Tome comes with Telepathy without having to dip into Mindbender, Steel can access Telepathy before the Tome is playable.
Steel's SR is effectively 26 at ECL 5 (up to 8) if the opposing caster were the same ECL, Tome's is only 11.
Steel is immune to acid which when coupled with Mantel of the Fiery Soul & Troll-Blooded means immunity to lethal damage.

Steel's Moderate Arcane Shield & the Tome's Precognition abilities are not defined.
Likely Precognition is the source of the insight bonus to AC (scales up to +4).
Minor Arcane Shield gives a +10 bonus to the Steel's SR against 4th level spells, likely moderate upped the level of spell the bonus can apply to.

Aging
Tome's Free Metamagic doesn't give free feats, instead metamagic feats with less cost than X do not alter the action spent to cast it.
Steel's casting time remain changed allowing it to use a Spell Surge + Invisible Spell for casting two spells each round.

Steel gets enthall, Charm/Suggestion and their Mass versions.
Tome gets Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Planesshift, True Seeing, & Astral Projection.

Steel's DR caps at DR 20/magic, Tome's is DR 15/magic.
Both have the same AC & Flat-Footed ACs, Tome's touch AC is two higher (thanks to the insight bonus).


Other
Steel is official material.
Tome knows all sorcerer conjuration spells (it bears repeating, else it's a no contest and Steel wins).


Also, here is a web version of one of these creatures (different than some other versions of the statblock):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a

[killem2]

I ask about dragon magazine because they have dragon characters.

Dragon Magazine #320 page 36 for metallic dragons
Dragon Magazine #332 page 26 for chromatic dragons

[Elycium]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wOEp_nYJq6QJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D9064.0

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mdYqcHwJ7R4J:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D9064.5

You should read that... here's a summary! Also, use these rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm


Steel (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
Stats: 4HD/2LA, Small
Alignment: LN or LG
Adjustments: +2 con/cha
Natural AC: +3
Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 30ft
Breath: line of acid, 1d6 & cone of poison, 1 con damage then 1 min later again.
Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid, SR 16, spells; sorcerer 1st + cleric + knowledge & trickery
Spellcasting: Wrymling

VS

Tome (dragon magazine #343)
Stats: 3HD/5LA, Tiny
Alignment: usually lawful neutral
Adjustments: -4 str, -2 con, +4 wis/cha, +6 int.
Natural AC: +1 & +1 insight
Speed: land 20ft, fly 90ft (good).
Breath: Shot with a 5ft blast radius of sonic, piercing, bludgeoning, or fire, 1d8.
Qualities: Physical Frailty, Arcane Sight, Precognition, Telepathy 100ft, SR 11, spells; sorcerer 3rd + knowledge & auto knows all divination/conjuration
Spellcasting: Wrymling

***

Extended Details on their statblocks

Starting ECL goes to the Steel with it's availability from level 5 on with LA buyoff.
By ECL 8 they both have 3rd level spellcasting.
Steel can learn any cleric spell, the Tome knows all divination & conjuration spells without using known slots.
By ECL 9 the Steel can pay off the rest of it's LA, for 55% of the game the Steel knows a higher spell level than the Tome.
Steel dragons can have 20 while the Tome is limited to 16 allowing the Steel to obtain more powerful class traits.
Both can take Loredrake, both lose their domain access by doing so, the Steel loses cleric spells but the Tome still knows divine/conjor spells.

Steel has faster speed, can swim, poison breath and can hit more enemies with it's normal breath weapon.
Tome has bigger bonuses to mental scores, Steel don't have penalties to con.
The Tome's maneuverability is better but it's natural weapons & reach are reduced by one size.
Steel has one point of AC more but the Tome sports +1 insight to AC (does not stack with foresight and such) which is applied to Touch Attacks.
Tome has a 3/day Alternate Form and the Steel has 5/day Alternate Form.
Tome comes with Telepathy without having to dip into Mindbender, Steel can access Telepathy before the Tome is playable.
Steel's SR is effectively 26 at ECL 5 (up to 8) if the opposing caster were the same ECL, Tome's is only 11.
Steel is immune to acid which when coupled with Mantel of the Fiery Soul & Troll-Blooded means immunity to lethal damage.

Steel's Moderate Arcane Shield & the Tome's Precognition abilities are not defined.
Likely Precognition is the source of the insight bonus to AC (scales up to +4).
Minor Arcane Shield gives a +10 bonus to the Steel's SR against 4th level spells, likely moderate upped the level of spell the bonus can apply to.

Aging
Tome's Free Metamagic doesn't give free feats, instead metamagic feats with less cost than X do not alter the action spent to cast it.
Steel's casting time remain changed allowing it to use a Spell Surge + Invisible Spell for casting two spells each round.

Steel gets enthall, Charm/Suggestion and their Mass versions.
Tome gets Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Planesshift, True Seeing, & Astral Projection.

Steel's DR caps at DR 20/magic, Tome's is DR 15/magic.
Both have the same AC & Flat-Footed ACs, Tome's touch AC is two higher (thanks to the insight bonus).


Other
Steel is official material.
Tome knows all sorcerer conjuration spells (it bears repeating, else it's a no contest and Steel wins).


Also, here is a web version of one of these creatures (different than some other versions of the statblock):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a

Hmmm, the exp for level adjustment seems as a good thing.

[lunar2]

don't forget that all dragon type creatures automatically qualify for any feat or prestige class that lists dragonblood subtype as one of its prerequisites.

[8wGremlin]

What about savage species, that has dragons as class levels.
I think I remember that silver was reasonable, might be wrong been a long time since I looked at that book.

[Elycium]

don't forget that all dragon type creatures automatically qualify for any feat or prestige class that lists dragonblood subtype as one of its prerequisites.

Sadly, the current state of my dragon don’t let me enter in a dragon prestige class because it’s too weak for requisites. That´s the reason that I did say about going to Paladin.


What about savage species, that has dragons as class levels.
I think I remember that silver was reasonable, might be wrong been a long time since I looked at that book.


Savage species is what everyone used in the beginning, but I didn’t call it because it basically says the same as Dracomicon about dragons.

But well, between silver and Gold, I prefer the gold dragon :p

[lunar2]

no, not the dragon prestige classes. those are all meant for epic dragons, iirc. i'm talking about the feats and prestige classes from races of the dragon and dragon magic that have "dragonblood subtype" as a prerequisite. all dragon type creatures automatically qualify for anything that has that as a prerequisite.

it's not that they count as dragonblood for the purposes of qualifying, but that they actually qualify simply by being dragons. they can ignore the other prerequisites.

[Gavinfoxx]

Another thing.

You and your GM really, really, really, really, really need to read this handbook:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928

Also, I believe there are a grand total of two prestige classes that Lunar is talking about, both in... Dragon Magic, I think? Regardless, your spellcasting for being (say) a Steel dragon should qualify you for a prestige class pretty much immediately, though you might want to take a level of Sorcerer or something (possibly with some ACF's taken).

[lunar2]

disciple of the eye, singer of concordance, both in races of the dragon. but there are feats, as well.

[Tvtyrant]

Talk to your DM about dropping dragon LA entirely, and only run it on HD and levels.

[Elycium]

Another thing.

You and your GM really, really, really, really, really need to read this handbook:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928

Also, I believe there are a grand total of two prestige classes that Lunar is talking about, both in... Dragon Magic, I think? Regardless, your spellcasting for being (say) a Steel dragon should qualify you for a prestige class pretty much immediately, though you might want to take a level of Sorcerer or something (possibly with some ACF's taken).


Maaaan, that thing was helpful, thanks :)


disciple of the eye, singer of concordance, both in races of the dragon. but there are feats, as well.

I do not know those clases, seems that I will have to look at them.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Also, I believe there are a grand total of two prestige classes that Lunar is talking about, both in... Dragon Magic, I think? Regardless, your spellcasting for being (say) a Steel dragon should qualify you for a prestige class pretty much immediately, though you might want to take a level of Sorcerer or something (possibly with some ACF's taken).


disciple of the eye, singer of concordance, both in races of the dragon. but there are feats, as well.

Discipline of the Eye is a monk PrC, while the Singer of Concordance is a divine casting PrC - even if dragons can cast cleric spells, they are cast as arcane spells, so he gets no real benefit from either of these.

[lunar2]

singer of concordance advances any casting, not just divine casting.

[Elycium]

Talk to your DM about dropping dragon LA entirely, and only run it on HD and levels.

Sorry, I dont get it entirely, care to elaborate?

[Kuulvheysoon]

singer of concordance advances any casting, not just divine casting.

So it does. Huh.

Of course, it requires 3rd level divine spells to enter. That's probably why I have it fixed in my mind a a divine PrC.

[Tvtyrant]

Sorry, I dont get it entirely, care to elaborate?

Normally you have level adjustment and monstrous hit dice combined to make up the starting ECL of a monster player character. Dragons are actually fairly weak by hit dice, so I advocate removing the level adjustment entirely and just using racial hit dice and character levels.

For instance, an Adult black dragon has 19 Hit Dice but a CR of only 11. This makes an Adult black dragon weaker than a level 19 character. It doesn't even have a level adjustment, but by the level adjustment used as younger black dragons you would have to be level 25 or so to start playing a CR 11 creature.

[Elycium]

Normally you have level adjustment and monstrous hit dice combined to make up the starting ECL of a monster player character. Dragons are actually fairly weak by hit dice, so I advocate removing the level adjustment entirely and just using racial hit dice and character levels.

For instance, an Adult black dragon has 19 Hit Dice but a CR of only 11. This makes an Adult black dragon weaker than a level 19 character. It doesn't even have a level adjustment, but by the level adjustment used as younger black dragons you would have to be level 25 or so to start playing a CR 11 creature.

Hmmm, you know, what you are pointing is actually true. I will ask to the DM about this.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, that's why I suggest Steel Wymling. A Steel Wyrmling Sorcerer 1 (or Mystic 1, or Wizard 1, or Cloistered Cleric 1, or whatever) is an ECL 8 character. 4 HD + 2 LA + 1 Class level = ECL 8. Compare to, say, a Cleric 8 or a Wizard 8... and the Dragons tend to not come out on top. And that is, generally, as good as Dragons get, in the value for ecl! It just gets worse from there!