least MAD build

[Pandoras Folly]

What build have you made that gets its key powers and numbers from as few stats as possible?

Could you also grace us with How it was accomplished.

[GenericMook]

It's easily Warlock 20 or Dragonfire Adept 20.

You can put points into Charisma if you want, but it doesn't matter. Con and Dex are helpful for survivability, but it's a matter of taste. You could roll with all 8's and still be a perfectly serviceable character.

NAD classes ftw.

[docnessuno]

Cha-based T1/2 caster going into walker in the waste (and possibly paladin or prestige paladin) also works fairly well.

[TopCheese]

Well if Pathfinder is an option...

Orc (or human with racial heritage feat) Scarred Witch Doctor.

You are a full caster with Witch hex's and EVERYTHING is based on Con.

Spells, Spell DC, Hex DC ... It is fantastic to be a Caster with more HP than the front line bruisers.

My level 10 human Scarred Witch Doctor has 110 hp (before items) at level 10.

As a full caster you don't need str (caster remember), dex (though it is nice but not needed), cha (yeah...) , wis (good will save soo.. yeah), or int (skills are nice but spells are better).

[Juntao112]

Dragonfire Adept only needs Con. Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest builds (Fistbeard Beardfist) can get good mileage out of a Con focus as well, as can Druids.

Basically, if you're going to focus on one stat, focus on Con. Unless you're a Necropolitan spellcaster, in which case you focus on your primary mental stat.

[The Viscount]

Necropolitan Dread Necromancer is all Cha, all the time.

[Invader]

Wizard works just fine with nothing but INT.

If vote against DFA, they're certainly not MAD but especially at the lower levels its hard to be really effective with all your other stats being low.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, here's the ever-popular and lovely X stat to the Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread. If you want SADness, just plug in bits from the charts posted here.

The first build which comes off the top of my head is a Wizard with Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to HP) and Keen Intellect (Int to Will saves, some Wis-based skills). Use Nerveskitter and Martial Wizard variant (swaps Scribe Scroll for a fighter bonus feat, choose Improved Initiative) so you rock a +8 Initiative before Dex. Be a Necropolitan so you don't care about Fort saves and replace your d4s with d12s.

Net result is a Wizard with about as much HP as a Barbarian, with good Initiative, great Will saves, and who doesn't care about any stat other than Int (although Dex can still help Initiative checks, but is by no means a requirement). Very nice for the Wizard on a low point-buy.

[Psyren]

Scarred Witch Doctor and DFA are my choices. You could also make a Totemist that focuses on breath weapons.

Exalted Monk/Ardent works quite well with Intuitive Attack, and Vigor to effectively get HP from Wis. Or a Faerie Mysteries Initiate Kung Fu Genius Monk/Egoist.

[Petrocorus]

If you want SADness, just plug in bits from the charts posted here.

The first build which comes off the top of my head is a Wizard with Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to HP) and Keen Intellect (Int to Will saves, some Wis-based skills). Use Nerveskitter

In what books can i find those things?


Scarred Witch Doctor and DFA are my choices. You could also make a Totemist that focuses on breath weapons.



Scarred Witch Doctor is from Pathfinder?

[Andreaz]

Scarred Witch Doctor is from Pathfinder?Correct, the Races book.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sir Wisdom the SAD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7194308&postcount=3)

[TopCheese]

In what books can i find those things?



Scarred Witch Doctor is from Pathfinder?

Ha! I thought you typed "Which Doctor is from Pathfinder"

Needless to say for a split second I was confused and thought Paizo may have decided to take over the Doctor Who RPG....

[Petrocorus]

Needless to say for a split second I was confused and thought Paizo may have decided to take over the Doctor Who RPG....

:smallsmile:

Note, that would probably be awesome.

[Slipperychicken]

In what books can i find those things?


Faerie Mysteries Initiate is in Dragon #319. Keen Intellect is in OA, updated in Dragon #318. Nerveskitter is in Spell Compendium (Sorc/Wiz 1). Martial Wizard is at the very bottom of this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm).

[Chilingsworth]

My current character is probably one of the SAD-est characters I've ever gotten to play. Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus. Irronically, I ended up with a very nice array for him: 18,16,16,16,14,8. When I told my buddies what I was building with that array, they facepalmed at the ability scores I was "wasting."

[Answerer]

Three possibilities:
Wizard with Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Keen Intellect, Insightful Reflexes, going into Swiftblade for Arcane Reflexes; Int replaces Con for HP, replaces Wis for Will, replaces Dex for Reflex, and replaces Dex for Initiative. Don't think you can get Int-to-Fort. Int-to-AC is available in a lot of places,but I haven't found any yet that work without losing spellcasting.
Breath-weapon Totemist or Dragonfire Adept, focusing solely on Con. Possibly certain Binders too.
Any Undead spellcaster.

Anything else will require Con for health.

This Scarred Witch Doctor thing is atrociously bad design; I am not surprised.

[Psyren]

Anything else will require Con for health.


Psionicists can do without it thanks to Vigor + Share Pain, or even Mind Switch shenanigans into a sturdier form.

[TopCheese]

:smallsmile:

Note, that would probably be awesome.

Well mixing Dr Who and D&D is quite fun (I ran a Dalek Mind Flayer thingie once)... But I would hate to see WoTC or Paizo get a hold of anything Dr Who related.

*shiver*

@Answerer: Well in defense of my favorite caster (outside Magic of Incarnum at least) most of 3.5 and Pathfinder is too so what did you expect? Technically scarred witch doctor is for Orc only... But like most things there are ways around that.

I mean it isn't like Paizo said they wanted to balance their game or anything.

[Vaz]

Wizard works just fine with nothing but INT.

If vote against DFA, they're certainly not MAD but especially at the lower levels its hard to be really effective with all your other stats being low.

Really? A Grey Elf with around 10HP at Level 20 doesn't sound like much fun (20d4-40)

Edit; precluding what was given above, of course.

[Amphetryon]

I seem to recall an old build someone posted on the old Wizards' boards to show a survivable Druid/MoMF concept on a 0 point buy (straight 8's down the line).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You arguably don't need incredible constitution with a Wis-SAD soulbow build (Shiba Protector, Zen Archery, etc), since you can be a half a mile away from the fight.

[Vizzerdrix]

Necropolitan warlock.

[toapat]

Lost Traditions (Con, Druid) Druid

Grey Elf Wizard with Faerie Mysteries Innitiate.

[Greenish]

Monk/Paladin/Argent Fist/Shiba Protector with Serenity and Intuitive Attack: Wis to AC (even in heavy armour), Wis to saves, Wis to attack (twice), Wis to damage.

It's overly complicated, requires PrCs from two different settings, eats a lot of feats, and isn't very impressive in general, but it does get a lot of mileage from Wisdom.

[Archmage1]

TrueNamer. You won't even notice the difference.
Play as a commoner, and raise potatoes.
Warlock, playable on all 3's(sort of)

Fighter, as once more, you won't notice the difference.

[BowStreetRunner]

Factotum is pretty much SAD on INT.

[Invader]

Really? A Grey Elf with around 10HP at Level 20 doesn't sound like much fun (20d4-40)

Edit; precluding what was given above, of course.

Yeah but you're purposely taking a race for the sole purpose of dropping a score to prove your point.

With 20 levels of wizard and a neutral ability modifier you'll end up with an average of 51-52 HPS. Given the phenomenal cosmic power a wizard has at 20th level wizard has, 50 HPS isn't really that bad.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah but you're purposely taking a race for the sole purpose of dropping a score to prove your point.

With 20 levels of wizard and a neutral ability modifier you'll end up with an average of 51-52 HPS. Given the phenomenal cosmic power a wizard has at 20th level wizard has, 50 HPS isn't really that bad.

If you really use TO tactics, the amount of HP you have should never really be relevant. Additionally, you could buy Con-boosters (or get them cast on you) because Wizards can spare the cash, or just take FMI and laugh at your pathetic Con score. Or somehow make yourself functionally immune to HP damage (like regeneration + immunity to nonlethal, fire, and acid).

[Vaz]

Yeah but you're purposely taking a race for the sole purpose of dropping a score to prove your point.

With 20 levels of wizard and a neutral ability modifier you'll end up with an average of 51-52 HPS. Given the phenomenal cosmic power a wizard has at 20th level wizard has, 50 HPS isn't really that bad.

No, I'm taking a typical race with an Intelligence bonus to make a Wizard with 20 Intelligence to prove my point.

[Amnestic]

No, I'm taking a typical race with an Intelligence bonus to make a Wizard with 20 Intelligence to prove my point.

Also it should be 20HP, since you always get at least one hit point at level-up. 20 is the absolute minimum a 20HD character can have.

[Invader]

No, I'm taking a typical race with an Intelligence bonus to make a Wizard with 20 Intelligence to prove my point.

The OP is asking for the least mad build abs as race is usually part of a build you're purposely failing.

Obviously you can make any SAD build worse by taking a sub optimal race.

If someone asks for the best and you purposely design something to fail then you have no argument.