Need suggestions for out of combat xp/handling war

[Mongrel]

I'm currently DMing a game where my players have gained control of a small tribe of goblins, and are trying to expand the goblins under their rulership. I have two major questions/requests for ideas about this:

first: leveling up of goblin minions. The PCs have taken a few goblins into a fight recently, and some of them levelled up. The player whose character is technically in charge of the goblins asked me if there was any way for his minions to level up without combat, specifically for craftsmen (he wants his goblins to start producing weapons, armor, etc.) and for his single goblin cleric (he doesn't want to lose his only spellcaster, so he's hesitant to risk him in fights). Logically, there would be a way for characters to gain xp without killing things, but the DMG pretty much just says that you can do it when appropriate, it has no rules as to how to do it. I was thinking that he would need to get some sort of teacher in order to do this, but I'd still like to know if anyone has any rules or suggestions for how to handle this, particularly for PCs who want to teach the goblins things (can the barbarian teach the goblins how to fight? Can the wizard teach them to cast spells if they have over 10 intelligence? etc.)

Second: there is a very real possibility that the party will be attacking a nearby tribe of hobgoblins. I've been told that there are great rules for mass creature combat like what would happen in a battle or war in the DnD minis rulebooks, but have been unable to find any such rules with a cursory search. Can someone point me to where I should be looking, or link me to the rules in question?

[Mongrel]

(bump)

someone's gotta have dealt with something like this before.

[ArcturusV]

Well, you could rip a page out of 2nd edition and apply it to your tribe in question. In that edition classes not only got XP for killing stuff and Treasure, but also got XP for other reasons, depending on their class. Like Clerics would get XP for "Casting Spells which further their Ethos" so a cleric could gain XP from say, consecrating a territory to provide a holy place to bury the dead so that their mortal remains are safe from Necromancers or something. But not so much from casting Cure Light Wounds to fix a bruise from when Billy fell off his horse.

In this case, for Craftsmen I would award similar rewards not just for doing their job, but for going beyond the means. So set an XP benchmark you are comfortable with, say, I don't know, 10 XP. Everytime a crafter creates something which he couldn't take 10 on (So he wanted to make something with a DC 17, but his skill ranks/bonuses only equaled 4), and succeeds, he gains XP equal to the difference between his safe, Take 10 Result, and the needed DC (In this example case, 30 XP, 3 ranks times the 10 XP modifier). No XP if a guy takes 20 on it (As that represents less growth and understanding and more just blundering along until he manages to get it somehow).

Just an idea.

[Asteron]

I believe that Champions of Valor has rules for War based on Victory Points. It avoids having to have massive battles that would really be impossible to roll out. Essentially, the PCs have objectives that they can earn or lose victory points based on how well they complete them.

A couple of printed campaigns use them: Red Hand of Doom and Shadowdale, the Scouring of the Land.

[ngilop]

your crftsmen would level up.. eventually its just soo much slower than putting one at risk.

your warriors will be higher level than your craftsman by a wide margin.

Id think something was amiss if your warrior goblins were level 2 and so were the craftmasn, experince is not free

the higher the risk the higher the reward.

stitting home and weaving baskets all day does not make one level 20.

but who cares in the end you are the DM, I guess if you want lvl 18 berry-pickers thats your perogitive.

[Dissonance]

Just realize that there is a risk when crafting. You could attempt to craft an item and if it fails, the resources are not reuseable, or at least not completely salvageable. Salvaging it would take time and effort and would be impractical probably. The opportunity cost of resources misused could be nearly as dangerous as a powerful enemy. That could keep exp flowing steadily to the warriors and the craftsmen.

For the actual xp gain I would suggest a flat rate of xp to signify their growth in the mechanics of working the metal or whatever. The more you work with it, the more familiar you will get. Keep it small though and no hiking the xp when they level, or put a lv cap on it. Mechanical knowledge will only get you so far. Then you could incorporate ArcturusV's idea of gaining xp for "innovation" and the like. This bonus reward could scale to the ammount of innovation and to the appropriate lv. So they would have to if they wanted to reach the higher levels in any efficient manner.

Also do not take it that as they are leveling as craftsmen that it is separate from their combat statistics. Work is still work and toughens the body in ways related to the work. It also could mean that they are more than a deft hand at whatever their craft concerns and can make uses of it that defy all expectation. That barbarian might be physically stronger than the blacksmith, but the blacksmith has worked with and on the greatsword a lot more and knows how to use it a LOT better.