Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VII: There's a Codex Entry for That [Archive]

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Squark

2013-01-21, 04:53 PM

Welcome to the Seventh Warhammer 40k fluff thread. Why do we have a fluff thread and a tabletop thread? Well, because, to put it bluntly, arguments about fluff can take up a lot of space. And that makes it hard for people to get critiques on their list. So, if you need to find out what's a good color scheme for your custom Dark Angels Successor chapter, Argue the morality of the setting yet again (Oh, how we wish you wouldn't), or even share fluff you've written for your army, here's the place.

Just remember, in the Grim Darkness of the future, there is only pointless bickering!

Previous Threads
Thread I: Warning: No Fanboys Allowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105150) (:smalltongue:)
Thread II: Heresy Grows From Idleness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128240)
Thread III: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion III: You're Emprah? Well I didn't vote for you! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7807655#post7807655)
Thread IV: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170857)
Thread V:Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion V -WARNING: May Contain Heresy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198131)
Thread VI:Warhammer 40k Fluff Discission VI- They see me Ward'en, they haten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224654)

Tome

2013-01-21, 05:32 PM

Sharing fluff we've written for our armies? Hmm... I suppose I could do up the history I came up with for my cadre.

If I could find wherever I buried my notes on my hard drive... :smalltongue:

Acanous

2013-01-21, 07:27 PM

I remember trying to fluff the Sororitas Leopardae, but stopping because I just couldn't scrape off the dirty feels.

Painted 'em pink and white, made extensive use of Repentia :-p

LeSwordfish

2013-01-21, 07:47 PM

If we're sharing fluff, perhaps i could link the writing i did for my Dark Heresy characters?

Remora: The Emperor's Light (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wmxhh6LYRSd9ILs_i4_iQuxo15nqfgiIMG9GR_rrzX4/edit) Cleric of Maccabeus Quintus takes on an unbeliever and a test of strength.

Alis: Recruited (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2JiFK2JU0wKRDyQEhuukLzkSgUeKJQ7azyjxo0boMU/edit) An unusual job offer for a psychopathic arbitraitor.

Gideon: The Party (https://docs.google.com/document/d/162Nw6g01P3Lp9Ki4Go_ydmi567zHRVyicOGCOvouG2A/edit) I know what you did last century.

I swear, they're better than the little blurb bit in italics. I wasn't pissed when i wrote them.

Renegade Paladin

2013-01-21, 07:58 PM

True, but you'll notice on page 7 the quote by Warmaster Demetrius, right?

He's bragging about having half a million men, 30,000 tanks and artillery pieces under his command.

Which would have been impressive... in WWII on Earth. Not especially impressive considering the vastness of space or the shear amount of manpower and equipment needed to subdue an entire planet.
We don't know the scale of Demetrius' operation, though. Admittedly, the fact that he's titled Warmaster and what that means in the Imperium suggests "vast," to say the least, but we also know that Guard tithes on some single planets run into the hundreds of millions per year.

mistformsquirrl

2013-01-21, 08:10 PM

mistformsquirrl

2013-01-21, 08:30 PM

Oh, I wanted to share some old fluff I'd written up from my first foray into 40k a long time ago. This was written during 4th edition mind, so some fluff may have changed/been clarified since so I apologize if anything is out of synch with the present fluff. (Also apologies if I got anything just flatly wrong.)

Anywho, these are both for armies I might collect someday if this Guard thing works out and I can find a group to game with. Warning, this is relatively long >.> hence it being spoilered.

First up - Craftworld Nepenthe:

Nepenthe – The Void Seekers

Nepenthe is among the smallest and swiftest of the Craftworlds, often likened to a very large ship rather than the vast planet sized constructs of most Craftworlds. Nepenthe’s survival of the birthing of Slaanesh and the damning of the Eldar race is almost solely a function of this speed, for she was among the last Craftworlds built, and many constructed at the same time would not survive the Fall.

After riding out the massive shockwave that heralded Slaanesh’s awakening, Craftworld Nepenthe initially drifted aimlessly, wandering the galaxy without purpose for centuries; her people morose and sullen, and their leader near-mad from her warp-spawned visions. It was not until the death of Lady Allyndra, the first Crimson Seer, that Nepenthe gained a direction.

The loss of their leader left the Eldar of Nepenthe divided as to who should succeed Allyndra – there were no heirs to be had, and times were already precarious for the tiny Craftworld. Things nearly came to blows as the argument over succession reached a critical level, until one of the claimants, Lord Aser, inexplicably endorsed his chief rival and removed himself from the running. His rival, Lord Cathandar was given the position of Crimson Seer, and crisis seemed at last averted.

However Cathandar was an arrogant and ineffective ruler, as capricious as any Eldar could be. He made the Craftworld many enemies among the other races, preying on worlds at a whim and taking slaves for his amusement. Lord Aser, struck with grief over having allowed his world to be so used took his own life.

The Long Chase and the Revival of Nepenthe

Cathandar’s rule was not to last however; his abuse of the Mon-Keigh found his Craftworld pursued by dozens of Imperial warships, and Nepenthe, though a powerful target with a small navy of her own; would have been annihilated against such forces. Even her speed could not outrun the warships, and Cathandar quickly became sullen and spent more time hiding in the throne room, wiling away the days as the Imperial ships slowly gained ground on the seemingly doomed Nepenthe.

While most of the Craftworld’s leaders prepared for their eventual fate, a pair of warlocks devised a daring and risky plan to save their world from Cathandar’s doom.

Their names were Claryion and Laern, both among the earliest Eldar births after the Fall. They were young for their positions, but both displayed significant talent; and their close friendship became even closer as the decades passed, eventually blossoming into love. The pair’s significant psychic skills had found them assigned to Lord Cathandar’s bodyguard; but they quickly grew disillusioned with the craven lord of Nepenthe.

So it was that as the Imperial ships closed on Nepenthe, Claryion and Laern made their way to the heart of the Craftworld, where the great iron statue of the Avatar of Khaine had stood since the Fall. There were no Exarchs presiding over the place, for Nepenthe had yet to be visited by any of the Phoenix Lords, and no Shrines of War yet graced her wraithbone towers. So they were alone before the Bloody Handed God, Kaela Mensha Khaine. Here they gave themselves to each other one final time; and then, merely days before the Imperial ships would catch Nepenthe, Laern walked away from his lover and into the embrace of Khaine.

This was the first time the Avatar had awoken on Nepenthe, and the whole of the Craftworld shook at his thunderous steps. Led by Claryion to the throne room of the Crimson Seer Cathandar, Khaine passed his judgment on the cowardly lord, incinerating his body and leaving naught but ash; his soulstone never to be placed in the infinity matrix.

The terrified members of the court proclaimed Claryion the new Crimson Seer immediately, too terrified of the god made manifest backing her.

Although not as psychically powerful as her predecessor, Claryion’s courage and clear headed vision gave her an opportunity Cathandar had missed, for it was a risky ploy, and would require significant luck to be successful..

The Craftworld changed course, turning to face the oncoming Imperial warships, and seemingly speeding to their demise. The precise nature of what happened next has become skewed by nearly 10,000 years of song and legend; but what can be gathered is that the Avatar’s psychic fury was somehow channeled through every Eldar aboard Nepenthe, and then through its wraithbone hull, creating a vicious mental shockwave that traveled across the void and slammed into the Imperial Fleet.

The Mon-Keigh were completely overwhelmed, officers who had faced Daemons in bording actions went to pieces; many ships were abandoned utterly in panic, and the Emperor Class Magestum Cartha plowed into the Mars Class Battlecruiser Infinitum Dei whilst attempting to escape the baleful energies radiating from Nepenthe. The havoc wrought on the Imperial fleet gave Nepenthe and her small navy time to escape. By the time the Imperium could reorganize for pursuit, Nepenthe had all but vanished.

Aboard the Craftworld all was not well however. The massive psychic energy she had harnessed had transformed Claryion into a crystalline statue; and the Avatar’s energies had been utterly dissipated; Laern’s fiery spirit having been wholly subsumed in the desperate gamble.

This time there was no squabbling over the throne of the Crimson Seer; the purity and sacrifice of two young and promising warlocks to save their entire craftworld united the people of Nepenthe as never before. A council was set up to govern until such time as a suitable leader could be found.

Culture of Nepenthe

Today, Nepenthe flits across the stars pursuing enigmatic and sometimes seemingly frivolous goals. The Eldar of Nepenthe have come to see in the tale of Claryion and Laern a new beginning for their race, and a chance to leave behind what once was. As such they have adopted an attitude they call “The Forgetting” toward the Eldar Empire of old; leaving behind both the sorrow of other Craftworlds over the loss of their Empire, and the aggression of others such as Biel-Tan toward restoring that which has been lost.

The Nepenthe see it as a wasted effort to shed tears over something so completely obliterated, and indeed most alive aboard the Craftworld today know very little of the events of the past, as they are passed on only among the Warlocks and Farseers that guide Nepenthe on her eternal journey through the stars.

This attitude of forgetfulness has resulted in a culture that bears some resemblance to the more powerful and well known Craftworld Saim-Hann, as both people’s do not tie themselves so rigidly to the Eldar system of paths. The Nepenthe however are not quite so wild, nor so bold; as the small size of the Craftworld dictates that to survive it must operate with caution and stealth, even compared to other Eldar, in regard to any contact with others – be it trade or conflict.

The Eldar paths have found their niche on Nepenthe, despite their lesser emphasis compared to most craftworlds. On Nepenthe, an Eldar does not wholly adapt him or herself to their path, but rather brings the path into line with their own preferences and abilities, at least within reason. It is thus not uncommon to find Nepenthe Eldar of a particular Aspect Shrine with significant personalization to their ritual costumes, including outlandish patterns and wild colors, or flourishing scarves and other additions beyond the norm.

All this freedom does leave Nepenthe somewhat vulnerable to the Great Enemy just the same; and where other Craftworlds rely primarily on the discipline of the Path system to keep their populations from slipping into dangerous waters; Nepenthe relies on its corps of Warlocks to screen for corruption. None are above this scrutiny, not even the Crimson Seer, for the lessons of the founding legend of Nepenthe are only too clear in this regard. A poor leader could spell the end for even a Craftworld.

Military

Nepenthe’s extremely low population makes direct military confrontation a near impossibility. Instead, the Craftworld uses its superior speed to outrun the vast majority of foes, simply avoiding battle altogether. There are of course times where this is simply not an option.

When the warriors of Nepenthe take to the field, they do so with the utmost caution. Rangers, who are trained within the Craftworld rather than as outcasts, reconnoiter the field ahead of the main group while Swooping Hawks wait high in the clouds above the field; unseen and unknown. When battle is joined, Striking Scorpions will almost inevitably be at the tip of Nepenthe’s spear, cutting down officers and command groups, and generally sowing confusion and terror into the enemy. Moments later, Warp Spiders emerge from the Webway, instantly striking at vital infrastructure and vulnerable vehicles before opening fire on the survivors.

The Hawks dive low, scattering bomblets as they glide over exposed enemy positions and cutting down fleeing soldiers with their lasblasters whilst the Rangers prevent any escape.

In less time than it takes to tell, an entire force can be neutralized as an effective fighting machine. This kind of precision coordination and stealthy operation is required, as Nepenthe’s warriors are always outnumbered, and each that falls is an enormous blow to the Craftworld.

A few deceased warriors have their soulstones placed inside the massive wraith constructs known as Wraithlords, but this is rare as it is both distasteful in the extreme, and also difficult to find a place for the stalwart dead in the precision operations of Nepenthe’s warmachine.

Second - the Order of the Lioness (Sisters of Battle):

Order of the Lioness

“Let the Emperor speak through thy Bolter’s roar,
Let the Righteous be lifted up by that holy sound!”

History

The Order of the Lioness was initially founded in early M40 to honor St. Dona the Stout. St. Dona had been a fierce preacher of the Imperial Creed, and was honored with Sainthood for her valorous acts in the Klayteen Schism. There, she single handedly held the sole bridge into the inner sanctuary of the Illumina shrine against heretic and alien alike; succumbing to her wounds only after the Sisters of Battle arrived to see off the last of the foe.

Those who had witnessed her final moments in combat claimed that her ferocity in defense of the shrine was as a lioness protecting her cub. Sainthood would not come for Dona the Stout for nearly a millennia yet; but her legacy inspired a young Palatine to petition the head of her Order for permission to separate and found an Order on the holy works of Dona.

As a trial of faith, this Palatine – one Jean Sheerard – was asked to undergo the rigours of the Repentia until such time as the Prioress deemed her worthy for such a responsibility. Jean accepted, and gave up her armor, bolter and her position as a Palatine; instead going to war with nothing more than a simple missionary’s robe and a mighty eviscerator.

For nearly seven years she found herself thrust regularly into the worst of the fighting, and for nearly seven years, Jean somehow emerged from the thick of things singing the Emperor’s praises and carving through His enemies with her eviscerator roaring triumph.

Permission was at last granted after she gave up her sight during a duel with a heretical Chaos Marine. The monster’s warp-spawned powers struck her blind at the height of the battle, only for Jean’s eviscerator to deliver an Emperor-guided blow that removed the top of his skull, spraying brain gore across the broken rock where they had fought.

Now blind, Jean was given her armor and weapons back, as well as being granted the position of Prioress of the newly formed Order of the Lioness.

Practices and Beliefs

The Order of the Lioness is among the smallest of the Orders Militant. Its numbers are kept low by a combination of harsh recruiting practices, relentless crusading, and the sometimes unfortunate habit of holding their ground even when such a position becomes quite untenable. Many a Sister Lioness has found martyrdom holding a position most Imperial commanders would have abandoned much sooner. This stubbornness is one of the defining characteristics of the Order of the Lioness.

Compared to the other Orders Militant, the Order of the Lioness is perhaps the least concerned with straight religious zealotry, and perhaps the most concerned with the temporal application of force. Though there is no doubt they are devout adherents of the Imperial faith, the Sisters often prefer to show their strength of conviction with force of arms instead of loud chanting.

To this end, the Order of the Lioness only maintains a single Shrine World, Klaytor, home of the Illumina shrine of St. Dona. Instead of keeping watch on the Imperium and endlessly stamping out heresy and mutation as they inevitably try to destroy the Emperor’s good works, the Sisters Lioness have spent most of the last millenia crusading across the length and breadth of the galaxy, wherever they can find ships to take them. Most often they affix themselves to an (oft only barely aware) Imperial crusade, bringing faith and fire right to the wretched holes of the Alien and the Heretic.

The recruitment practices of the Order of the Lioness tend to be less than uniform; though they typically bear a similar theme. Generally, the Palatine or Cannoness in command of a force is given leeway to choose who to send back to Klaytor; and from there the prospective recruit is given some basic martial training, a set of simple monastic robes, and an eviscerator chainsword. At this point the recruit will be sent out with the next crusade group to prove her mettle in combat. The failure rate at this stage is quite high, but the ritual has proven to leave only tough, determined and rugged individuals alive long enough to receive the approval of their superiors and become full Sisters of Battle.

By their nature, Sisters Lioness tend to be proud, aggressive, and inevitably stubborn; and they tend to see themselves as Knight Crusaders as much as Shrine Maidens. This has in the past led to some friction with other Orders when working side by side; as many are inclined to protect holy places first and foremost, whereas the Sisters Lioness often take the stance that the best defense of a shrine, is to destroy whatever threatens it before it can do any damage.

Colors, Paraphernalia and Heraldry

The Order of the Lioness wear’s a light grey power armor with white robes and golden trim. Their chief emblem is a lioness rampant in gold or white (white if painted, gold if embossed), often with a sword either in hand or in the backdrop.

It is not uncommon for Sisters Lioness to carry adamantine shields into combat embossed with the seal of their order. While most often they prefer to fight with bolter and flamer, when the enemy inevitably closes (and given their compunction against retreat), many Sisters have found it a useful addition. They also serve to display an individual Sister’s campaign awards.

< . .>

Cheesegear

2013-01-22, 01:19 AM

Argue the morality of the setting yet again (Oh, how we wish you wouldn't)

What if we talk about female Space Marines?

*runs*

hamishspence

2013-01-22, 02:10 AM

And that makes a lot more sense. Maybe I should have phrased it differently as "/some/ writers have no sense of scale" hehe - anyway it's not a big deal, it just mildly bugs me when it shows up is all >.>
In Deathwatch, the Achilius Crusade began with some 1 billion frontline combat troops- and by the "present" when the PCs are involved, it's grown to 6 billion. And this represents only 20% of the military actually assigned- the rest tend to be in reserves, garrisons, security, etc.

Brother Oni

2013-01-22, 03:05 AM

Note to Squark - we're on the Seventh thread.

What if we talk about female Space Marines?

*runs*

*Prepares the pitchforks and burning torches*

GolemsVoice

2013-01-22, 03:27 AM

Let's talk about the morality of female Space Marines. Bonus points if we manage to get Hitler in the mix.

Cheesegear

2013-01-22, 06:24 AM

Let's talk about the morality of female Space Marines.

I don't think that's justified.

Hazzardevil

2013-01-22, 07:23 AM

I'm certain that we've had a Warhammer thread on Giantitp with this subtitle before....

So, It is obvious that the people who keep trying to shoehorn female Space Marines into 40K are all Commie Socialist Nazi mutant xenos scum.

shadow_archmagi

2013-01-22, 09:31 AM

I don't think that's justified.

Yeah, regardless of the circumstances, you can't really justify women.

Cheesegear

2013-01-22, 09:37 AM

Yeah, regardless of the circumstances, you can't really justify women.

Not sure if serious, or taking the joke too far...

Anyway, back to some real Fluff Thread topics instead of everyone trying to derail the thread in their own special way...

I'm almost finished all the books in the Advent Bundle from December, and Betrayer is really good. Lorgar is being a massive douche - but that's normal at this point - and Angron is well, Angron. What else do you want from a book? Although it really, really, really helps if you've listened to Butcher's Nails first, too.

Platinius

2013-01-22, 11:56 AM

there is nothing like a discussion about female space marines to start a 40k thread:smallbiggrin:

GolemsVoice

2013-01-22, 02:35 PM

I never quite got into audiobooks, and I'm just not a fan of downloading "Books", but maybe I should give an audiobook a try? How's the overall quality, especially the voices?

CN the Logos

2013-01-22, 03:50 PM

there is nothing like a discussion about female space marines to start a 40k thread:smallbiggrin:

What about a sorceress who's used her space magic to extend her life indefinitely and augment her physical abilities, leading a group of Chaos Space Marines? Who happens to wear power armor, and has a Chaos HQ statline because magic? I know the setting already includes people who are more or less normal except for being inexplicably immortal, so the classic "vain sorceress who uses dark magic to extend her life" character type shouldn't be that out of place.

It's probably not going to change how I fluff my Chaos dudes, but I'm curious to see what the fluff-fan reaction would be to that bit of backstory. :smalltongue:

Wraith

2013-01-22, 04:15 PM

GolemsVoice

2013-01-22, 04:18 PM

Heck, Slaanesh likely has a whole host of.... things who are more or less female and lead armies. However, Slaanesh being Slaanesh applies.

hamishspence

2013-01-22, 04:21 PM

"Ex-Inquisitor" isn't all that uncommon a background for Chaos sorcerers.
Black Crusade is based around a mixed party of Chaos Marines and mortals (mortals get extra gifts to keep them competitive)- the marines don't have to be the party leaders.

CN the Logos

2013-01-22, 04:52 PM

To my mind, that would equate to some kind of evil equivalent to an Inquisitor.

Special training, augmetics on demand, "psychic" powers, access to special equipment like Power Armour, bolters and the likes....
Or she's just a particularly revered Champion of Chaos and has been festooned with gifts to make her as tough and strong as she needs to be to crack heads and assert herself; there's precedent for Chaos Marines to take orders from someone other than another Chaos Marine, willingly or otherwise.

There's dozens of ways to interpret it that probably wouldn't upset most people - anything but "she is/used to be a Space Marine" is reasonable by the game standards. :smalltongue:

Heck, Slaanesh likely has a whole host of.... things who are more or less female and lead armies. However, Slaanesh being Slaanesh applies.

Well, if anyone's interested, the fluff I'm working on for this warband is that they're essentially seeking some sort of gnostic-esque enlightenment. They revere psychic power because to obtain true understanding, etc, etc... one must have some level of knowledge and control over what amounts to the collective unconscious. So while they deliberately invoke the Ruinous Powers to further their understanding and gain power, they view anyone who actually worships the Chaos Gods with contempt. It doesn't save them from the occasional mutation-related causality, but I didn't say they weren't doomed as tragic (anti)heroes or that they were especially self-aware in that regard.

Anyway, with that in mind, the reason these Chaos Marines would follow a squishy human is that she's sufficiently knowledgeable and skilled to sustain her continued life by sorcery alone. Also she's charismatic and is good at getting her followers to see her as a surrogate mother-figure, and if it comes down to it, can crack heads to assert herself if need be.

So I don't want to use Slannesh as an explanation for these guys, or my Sorceress in particular. Slannesh would probably find them all pretty boring: too much meditation, not enough dubstep or COCAINE.

Any thoughts?

hamishspence

2013-01-22, 04:57 PM

The Inquisition Phaenonite faction has an element of "using Chaos powers while despising the Chaos gods".

Well, if anyone's interested, the fluff I'm working on for this warband is that they're essentially seeking some sort of gnostic-esque enlightenment. They revere psychic power because to obtain true understanding, etc, etc... one must have some level of knowledge and control over what amounts to the collective unconscious.

Pre-heresy, the Thousand Sons seemed to have a similar outlook "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance"

Tome

2013-01-22, 06:34 PM

Any thoughts?

Firstly. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1N_ZgIadUk)

Secondly, I do believe it's been mentioned in cannon that not every "Chaos Space Marine" is actually an astartes - some of them are just people with enough heretek augmetics or blessings from the dark gods to boost their statline to the same level, who just so happen to wear power armour and wield bolters because those are some of the better equipment available. Which means your sorceress is totally within the bounds of cannon.

DaedalusMkV

2013-01-22, 06:48 PM

Secondly, I do believe it's been mentioned in cannon that not every "Chaos Space Marine" is actually an astartes - some of them are just people with enough heretek augmetics or blessings from the dark gods to boost their statline to the same level, who just so happen to wear power armour and wield bolters because those are some of the better equipment available. Which means your sorceress is totally within the bounds of cannon.

At the very least, Warpsmiths are explicitely laid out to often not be actual Space Marines at all; some of them are said to be just a Tech-priest's ancient, Warp-infused brain inside of a mechanical body vaguely reminiscent of a Space Marine's Powered Armour, and I expect that they can exist all along the spectrum. I see no reason why the same couldn't be true for other 'Chaos Marines' as well, either through mastery of psychic powers, Daemonic Gifts or tech-heresy.

Cheesegear

2013-01-23, 09:30 AM

How's the overall quality, especially the voices?

The overall quality is good, especially on any disc with Toby Longworth. He sounds exactly like a Space Marine is supposed to!

Good ones...
Raven's Flight, Dark King/Lightning Tower, anything with Garro on the front (except Sword of Truth) and Butcher's Nails.

I don't think Sword of Truth was as bad I think it is. I think I'm just upset that Varren has a better story to tell and we don't get to hear it.

Coincidentally, all the best audio books are tied into the Heresy. I'm pretty sure I have all the audio books BL has put out (certainly any AB that makes it to store shelves), and the ones that don't involve the HH are all...Well, pretty bad. Except Fireborn which was good, and Red & Black which is bland for the most part except for it's ending which doesn't hold back...The phrase 'Morally Justified' springs to mind.

The original trilogy of the Horus Heresy novels are all decent. But, with so many characters in those books, eventually you run out of voices (even the talented VAs will at some point)...And Sanguinius is the one who takes that bullet. His voice is awful.

I liked A Thousand Sons.

shadow_archmagi

2013-01-23, 12:42 PM

Interesting! I hadn't realized that some CSM hadn't undergone the specific super special procedure with geneseed and stuff.

Tome

2013-01-23, 03:29 PM

Interesting! I hadn't realized that some CSM hadn't undergone the specific super special procedure with geneseed and stuff.

Chaos is an equal-opportunity employer.

Artanis

2013-01-23, 04:04 PM

Weird query that just popped into my head:

It started with this thought: Khorne, being the Blood God, grows stronger from violence, while Gork and Mork, being the Orks' gods, would presumably grow stronger from Orks doing "Orky" things. However, bashing heads is one of the most "Orky" things an Ork can do, which raises the question, when Orks get into a fight, how much do G&M benefit as compared to how much Khorne benefits?

(I apologize if this is explicitly spelled out somewhere, but if it is, I can't find it because my access to background info right now is limited to just what I can find online).

The Glyphstone

2013-01-23, 04:14 PM

G+M punch him in the face whenever he tries to steal their 'juice'.:smallsmile:

More seriously, I'd say it would benefit him, but to a very small degree, far less than from humans or other races in that same situation. Khorne is Violence, but he is primarily Anger and Hate, with a healthy dose of Blood. Orks fight all the time, but their (internal) fighting rarely ends in death, and they don't really feel anger or hatred in combat. It'd be nourishing, but in the way a weak and flavorless broth would be, compared to a steak dinner with all the fixings that comes from a band of World Eaters tearing the limbs off babies.

DaedalusMkV

2013-01-23, 05:40 PM

Chaos is an equal-opportunity employer.

"Join Nurgle Corp today. We offer strong health-care benefits, freedom from all of your troubles and opportunity for advancement. DOE, Sorceror positions are also available. Management positions open to all. Bonuses packages include impossible power, benign mutations and immortality as an invinciple Prince of the Warp. All resumes accepted. Applications can be submitted to any Nurgle Corp location. Please bring valid proof of soul when applying for any Nurgle Corp position."

Warpsmiths are the only entry in the codex specifically laid out to often not be real Chaos Marines, but it does very effectively open the possibility for other units as well. After all, if warpcraft and tech-heresy can give one unit Marine-equivalent stats, there's no reason it couldn't do so for others.

mistformsquirrl

2013-01-23, 05:47 PM

There's also always Fabius Bile. I don't know if he's in the latest Chaos codex or not, but from what I recall he'd try to turn just about anything into a Marine-equivelant. Of course... his treatments tended to have side effects; but that's Chaos for you! <_<

Wraith

2013-01-23, 05:48 PM

It started with this thought: Khorne, being the Blood God, grows stronger from violence, while Gork and Mork, being the Orks' gods, would presumably grow stronger from Orks doing "Orky" things. However, bashing heads is one of the most "Orky" things an Ork can do, which raises the question, when Orks get into a fight, how much do G&M benefit as compared to how much Khorne benefits?

Another school of thought is that the Eldar and the Orks were both genetically engineered by the same race - the Old Ones - and both races' Gods are just distant rememberings of those beings.

So, Gork and Mork are the same Old Ones who were also remembered as Khaela Mensha Khaine and Cegorach, respectively, albeit coloured differently by each races' culture.

If so, Khaine is dead; anything done in his name probably goes to Khorne since their domains overlap quite a lot. Anything done in Mork's name, however, goes to the Laughing God - or, failing that, is shared between him and Tzeentch who is the alternate patron of Cunning ideas and scheming plans (Mork being the God of the brutally cunning, after all :smallbiggrin: )

Oracle_Hunter

2013-01-23, 05:57 PM

Another school of thought is that the Eldar and the Orks were both genetically engineered by the same race - the Old Ones - and both races' Gods are just distant rememberings of those beings.
Which doesn't jive with the Eldar Avatars -- being sentient fragments of the shattered God that get empowered by blood sacrifice to kick ass when things are going really poorly.

If that whole thing is a Khornite Ritual I'd expect either Chaos to have overtaken the Biel-tan by now or someone to have noticed the whole thing over the millenia since the Eye of Terror formed.

hamishspence

2013-01-23, 06:04 PM

I think Path of the Warrior alluded to Khaine being akin to a child of Khorne and Slaanesh.

Acanous

2013-01-23, 06:48 PM

Squark

2013-01-23, 06:58 PM

But... Slaanesh didn't form until AFTER Khaine. I mean, I know time has little meaning for 40k gods, but I'm pretty sure Khaine isn't Slaanesh's kid.

Also, source on Gork and Mork being Khaine and the Laughing god?
The way I heard it, Gork and Mork were orkish projections upon the warp which became their gods.

I think part of it at least dates back to the 3rd edition era fluff, where both the Orks and the Eldar were genetically engineered by the Old Ones, and it was suggested that the Eldar pantheon might have been inspired by the Old ones.

Voidhawk

2013-01-23, 07:52 PM

The way I understand it, the warp is divided into "Realms", which are a little like the purviews of the gods in Faerun D&D. Each is an area of power, and various gods hold sway over various realms. As they battle, power shifts and churns between them, and realms are won and lost. However some realms are massive (such as "War"), and most can be subdivided ("Human War"). Truly though, this naming convention is something only we players can really apply: warp beings just live it naturally, and the 40k races (other than the Old Ones) don't understand the truth of the warp. Anyway...

When the Eldar were young, only living on their home world, they saw/had psychic race memories of/were told about their creators (the Old Ones), and the various deeds that were happening in the galaxy at the time, namely the "War in Heaven" thing. Some they even took part in, being used as foot soldiers and so forth. But the original Old Ones who the stories were about didn't live to see the end of it, getting themselves murdered by the C'Tan and being reduced to single digit survivors, if that. But ages of repeating these same stories over and over by a bunch of massively psychic dudes has a reaction: they have been imbued with power and the Eldar Warp Gods coalesce from soul-stuff around these ideas.

One of these was Khaine, who held the realms/purviews of "Eldary-stuff", "War" and "Murder", among others. In order to hold onto the "Eldary-War" section, he likely fought other warp war-gods such as Khorne, but since Khorne was only really the god of Human War at this point, it's not so much of a stretch. However, that like all things, would change.

As an interesting side point, I'm pretty sure Cegorach (aka the Laughing God) formed from tales of the Deceiver C'Tan's part in the war, not any of the Old Ones. Since then he has become a chief opponent of the C'Tan, matching the Deceiver trick for trick, a hilarious case of shooting oneself in the foot. I even heard tell once the Laughing God used warp-dickery to go back in time and trick the Deceiver into creating himself, but that should likely be taken with a grain of salt. Anyway...

Over the next millennia the warp gets more and more turbulent, as both the Eldar expand their empire, and the nascent Humans spread out from Terra and colonise anything they can stick an STC to. Galactic population rises, which means more thought energy pours into the warp, which means all the daemons get bloated on power. But they are unequally bloated. The biggest get bigger, and consequently end up absorbing the others (read: fighting to the death and eating the corpse). This leaves us only with the Big Three and The Eldar Gods. The Eldar pantheon has enough mortal support to hold out though, plus they work together most of the time. But...

BAM! Slaanesh! Like the galaxy's largest Kool-Aid man, she plows onto the scene, leaving nothing but rubble and beverages in her wake. Everything gets screwed up massively. Born of a massive rave-gone-wrong-ectasy-explosion of collapsing Eldar souls, she has a massive glut of power. More to the point, she has the purview "EATING ELDAR SOULS", and hunts the other Eldar gods down one by one to prove it, consuming most of them. Isha she takes as a companion however (and is later stolen by Nurgle, in the galaxy's most revolting panty-raid), Cegorach who hides in the webway, and Khaine.

Khaine is attacked last by Slaanesh, being the strongest of the gods, and the battle is close fought. In the midst however, Khorne showed up, long having sought Khaine's Realm of "Eldar War" to complete his set. Together they overpowered the Eldar god, but neither would relinquish the prize to the other, so Khaine gets torn apart like a blood covered pinata, scattering the peices throughout the warp and beyond. Many of these pieces found their way to the Eldar Craftworlds, where they settled at the centre and later got precipitated out into specially made shells: the Avatars. Khorne and Slaanesh never forgive each other for breaking the prize up, and become rivals.

So yeah. That's the story (as I understand it). A shortened version is:
1) Old Ones (and C'Tan) inspire Warp Gods. Old Ones die horribly, C'Tan vanish get Pokeman'd. Enslaver plague too perhaps? Or did they retcon that?
2) Eldar imbue stories with power. Eldar gods formed, along with the gods of many other races, including man.
3) Humans and Eldar expand. Warp grows Turbulent.
4) Slaanesh Screws Everything Up.
5) Khorne fights Slaanesh for Khaine: it all ends in tears. And Avatars.

mistformsquirrl

2013-01-23, 07:57 PM

Lol, Slaanesh as a giant Kool-Aid man, busting through the walls of reality... I like that image waaaaay more than I should >_>

The Glyphstone

2013-01-23, 08:12 PM

Well, Slaaneshi-worshippers do like to shout "OH YEAH!" a lot....

Wraith

2013-01-23, 08:54 PM

Also, source on Gork and Mork being Khaine and the Laughing god?
The way I heard it, Gork and Mork were orkish projections upon the warp which became their gods.

Squark pretty much said it all. It's all inferred from the 3rd and 4th edition rules books, the Eldar and Ork Codices and quite a lot of joining-the-dots - which, I appreciate, may well just be coincidence or me chasing false threads.

Still, it's the version that *I* like most, and it does make a certain amount of sense. :smallsmile:

Which doesn't jive with the Eldar Avatars -- being sentient fragments of the shattered God that get empowered by blood sacrifice to kick ass when things are going really poorly.

Debatable, with my previous theory in mind.

Nothing in Codex: Eldar definitively says that an Avatar is a literal piece of Khaela Mensha Khaine - if anything, it is described as a statue of a God, that starts to awaken when it hears the "psychic battlecry" of the Eldar going to war. That's just the story we are told that they tell amongst themselves, based on legend and tales lost during the Fall.

Quite possibly, the Avatar is simply a construct, like a Golem, that is powered by the collective psychic power of the Craftworld. Ten thousand psykers all together, all thinking the same thing - war, battle, wrath - on a Craftworld, which is essentially a giant supercomputer for psychic energy made out of psy-sensitive Wraithbone.

Ten thousand Eldar get themselves into the mindset for war, and as the emotion grows stronger then the statue get hotter and more 'awake' until the very eve of battle, when emotions run strongest, at which point the statue erupts and the Avatar walk the battlefield.
The Avatar awakens because the inhabitants of the Craftworld - and beyond, if you consider the Infinity Circuit to be sentient, which it may well be - will it to.

Contrast and compare: The Eldar and the Orks have the same creators, and both races were engineered for the same task- to fight the C'Tan.
Ork technology works because they believe that it will ("red wunz go fasta!"), which is deliberately referred to as a psychic phenomenon.
It's entirely plausible that some of the Eldar psyker-based technology works in the same way, and because there are less Eldar around to power it then they require a stronger, more synchronized effort; such as the concentrated emotions that occur before a battle.

The blood sacrifice is all part of the ritual; a crescendo to mark the transition between emotion and action. Or, arguably, because the Eldar no longer know of any other way to channel their emotion in the way that is needed, now that so long has passed since the end of their Empire and since they all now have disciplined minds and behaviour restricting Paths to follow.

I'm not saying that's definitely how it works, but it fills in a lots of gaps and adds a certain amount of much needed grimdark pointlessness to the whole thing :smalltongue:

Squark

2013-01-23, 09:01 PM

To be fair, that era of fluff was also around the time which had the best case for the ork's knowledge of their tech being instinctual rather than intellectual (Or maybe that's even earlier- I only started playing around 4th, and only actually seriously started looking at the lore and playing the game in 5th, so this is going off things I've heard other people say)- An ork knows when a gun makes one sound, he needs to hit it like *this* to clear the jam, another sound, like *that* while if it's making *that one* noise, he's better off using it as a club or stealing someone else's gun. Similarly, "DA RED WUNS GO FASTA" Was a color coding thing- Bikes with special engines on them got painted red, but the orks didn't intellectually realize this, just that red bikes went faster.

Or perhaps this is how it started, and then their psychic field sort of snowballed the rest.

shadow_archmagi

2013-01-23, 09:59 PM

If so, Khaine is dead; anything done in his name probably goes to Khorne since their domains overlap quite a lot.

Khaine isn't dead. He's just broken.

thereaper

2013-01-24, 04:04 AM

I'm pretty sure that qualifies.

Tehnar

2013-01-24, 04:34 AM

I can only speculate but this is my take on things:

Orks don't fear death. They also sporulate the most at death. So while they don't want to die themselves, I doubt they feel sadness or anger when one of them dies, or his fellows.

So any kind of fighting for them is just fun, and they being Orks, think that fighting is fun for other races also. So while they like to pummel stuff, they don't really want to bathe in the blood of their foes; they would much rather fight a worthy foe again. Their emotions when fighting are antithetical to Khorne, so they go to Gork and Mork.

thereaper

2013-01-24, 04:50 AM

I'm not so sure. Khorne is supposedly the god of honor as well as slaughter. This is why he's not so big a fan of the use of psychic powers for direct combat.

Tehnar

2013-01-24, 04:58 AM

That may be true, but I doubt Orks have a sense of honor. I mean they are not sparing people for the sake of honor and nobleness. They are sparing people so they can 'ave anutha go wit' 'em.

Wraith

2013-01-24, 07:02 AM

That may be true, but I doubt Orks have a sense of honor. I mean they are not sparing people for the sake of honor and nobleness. They are sparing people so they can 'ave anutha go wit' 'em.

They do, on a very basic and simple level. Most orks despise 'sneaky gits' and always mock enemies who use lots of artillery rather than fight up close for example; they believe that the only proper way to fight is face to face, winner take all. This is 'honour', of a sort.

By the same token, they believe that mercy and cowardice are weaknesses, but they revere ruthlessness as a strength - appropriately ruthless/strong humans, such as Yarrick, are awarded respect by orks for comparing favourably with their own ideals.

Similarly, "DA RED WUNS GO FASTA" Was a color coding thing- Bikes with special engines on them got painted red, but the orks didn't intellectually realize this, just that red bikes went faster.

The REAL reason that GW says Orks believe this?

It's a joke, based on Formula One motor racing.
Throughout the 1990's, Ferrari were making their iconic sports cars like the Testarossa and the Spider, whereas their racing team were winning race after race, trophy after trophy. This is also the same period that 2nd Edition came out and that the 40k races were given the characteristics that we still use today.

And Ferrari's team colours? Red. Orks believe red wunz go fasta because they're driving a 'Ferrari'. :smalltongue:

So *technically* you're right - the red vehicles go faster because they have better engines and the like, but most Orks aren't to interested in the difference between causality and correlation and quite happily believe that their vehicles have better engines BECAUSE they're painted red. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone

2013-01-24, 09:45 AM

Which then, because of the WAAAAAUGH field, becomes self-reinforcing...vehicles painted red do get faster even if they started out with inferior engines/parts.

BRC

2013-01-24, 10:09 AM

I personally like the idea that Gork and Mork as Insanely powerful Warp entities, which makes sense when you consider the number of orks, and how basically all their personalities are identical. If the Hedonism of the Eldar created Slannesh, an entire, very populous species all vibrating on the same personality frequency should be able to make some powerful deities.
Canon be Damned, in my mind the Big Four chaos gods spend their days trying to stay out of the way as Gork and Mork are engaged in an endless duel over who is “Da Biggest”. Also over who is Gork and who is Mork. Also over who would win in an endless duel. Occasionally they take a minute to guide Ork-laden Space hulks and Roks towards life-bearing worlds (IIRC Orks don’t have navigators or access to the Astronomicon, so the fact that they occasionally emerge from the warp near lootable worlds means either they are really lucky, something is guiding them, or there are SO MANY orks in the Warp that some of them mange to emerge in a system with something worth WAAAGHing while countless others appear in the random spots in deep space). Occasionally one of them picks up Khorne and uses him as a back scratcher.

The Glyphstone

2013-01-24, 10:11 AM

Orks have Weirdboyz, who can do some of the functions of a Navigator.

Acanous

2013-01-25, 09:40 PM

It is worth noting that there's nothing in the Chaos codex about Khorne going head-to-head with Gork and/or Mork.

He might be avoiding them on purpose.

Cheesegear

2013-01-25, 10:20 PM

It is worth noting that there's nothing in the Chaos codex about Khorne going head-to-head with Gork and/or Mork.

He might be avoiding them on purpose.

It doesn't say he's not doing that, so clearly he probably is.
Best argument there is.

Acanous

2013-01-25, 10:23 PM

It doesn't say he's not doing that, so clearly he probably is.
Best argument there is.

Hey, I didn't say Probably, I said Might.

The rest of his theory holds water with what we know of the 40kverse, so noting the absense of contradictory evidence is constructive.

thereaper

2013-01-26, 01:02 AM

Acanous

2013-01-26, 01:05 AM

Why would he do that? The Chaos Gods are the strongest beings in the Warp.

Unless we're assuming that the combined might of both Gork and Mork could take down Khorne.

But the two of them uniting is about as likely as Tzeentch and Nurgle becoming best bros.

Well, that sort-of depends. I mean, if Khorne were to try getting between them, or STARTED the fight, they'd 'ave a go before getting back to the roit proppa fight.

BRC

2013-01-26, 03:16 AM

Assuming that the Mechanics of the Warp are that Chaos Gods arise from mass emotion/desires (The Eldar created Slannesh after all), and assuming that there is nothing about the Orks that prevents them from creating Warp entities in this way. Orks are a massively populous race, and each Ork shares similar, very extreme, desires. The Desire for some good fightin and some Good Lewtin!
Every Ork does.
I'm not super up to date on my Eldar history, but if Slanessh was created by a massive number of Eldar partying way too hard. Then, with the assumptions above, we must assume one of two things Either
1: There were more Eldar who loved to party then there are Orks who love Fightin' and Lewtin' (more specifically, that the Eldar's Hedonism met some threshold that the Orks do not)
Or
2: Gork and Mork are stomping their way around the Warp, battling eternally and occasionally helping out Da boyz.

shadow_archmagi

2013-01-26, 02:56 PM

The general consensus among the people I've talked to is that Gork and Mork are each much more powerful than any other chaos god, and their combined might is greater than the rest of the pantheon.

Of course, they'll never stop fighting each other long enough to challenge Khorne.

thereaper

2013-01-27, 12:53 AM

The 6th edition rulebook explicitly says that the Chaos Gods are the most powerful beings in the Warp.

t209

2013-01-27, 02:30 AM

Orks have Weirdboyz, who can do some of the functions of a Navigator.
But Orks can be a little smarter than a rock. Plus it's curious that why they haven't turn into chaos. I mean
We got a Melee loving Tau who could be possessed by Khorne.
Even if Eldar worship Khaine, it could also go to Khorne. But hey! It's grim dark baby!
:smallconfused:It's kinda strange that there are people who loved Tau and believed that they are (almost) Good Guys of the galaxy.
And I read this new comic (http://www.flashgitz.net/2013/01/cordial-introduction.html) and I don't understand that
I thought Space Marine Chapters knew of the existence of Traitor spacemarines.

Brother Oni

2013-01-27, 05:05 AM

And I read this new comic (http://www.flashgitz.net/2013/01/cordial-introduction.html) and I don't understand that
I thought Space Marine Chapters knew of the existence of Traitor spacemarines.

1) It's a parody comic. Fluff is only true if it's good for a joke.

2) A quick archive binge indicates those guys were flash frozen since the Heresy. They know of Traitor marines but not Chaos marines, since the two became synonymous after the Heresy.

I'm not sure whether it's intentional or just an accident, but Regulus and Marinus call themselves Astartes, not Space Marines, indicating they date back from the Legion days. I remember some Chaos Marines making the distinction in a book (I think they only regard certain chapters as worthy of being called Astartes, the rest being 'mere' space marines).

LeSwordfish

2013-01-27, 07:33 AM

That, ah, that may not be canon.

Tehnar

2013-01-27, 07:46 AM

I always thought that while Mork and Gork are individually less powerful then a single chaos god, together they are stronger. So if a single god comes picking a fight, they stop their fighting, gang up on the poor sod and send him packing.

Also why Orks don't turn to chaos. They do, but they weed out the chaos gitz quickly. Orks are like football hooligans. They like drinking beer, watching football or getting into fights. While some like to do one of those things more then others, they all participate in all of them. Thats what makes them hooligans, or in this case orks.

So when a ork start doing unorky things, or not doing orky things, the other orks get suspicious, and a beatdown quickly ensues. Or just his Waaaghness! is all unorky, but he anyway gets beat down.

Miraqariftsky

2013-01-27, 09:37 AM

A question for those more learned in the lore than I: How young ARE the youngest Sanctioned Psykers? How young does a Sanctionite need to be to be considered "TOO young"?

GolemsVoice

2013-01-27, 09:48 AM

For the sanctioning process, I'd say they have to be at least old enough to realiably endure the hardships of sanctioning, so maybe 16+?

Tehnar

2013-01-27, 09:56 AM

In Dark Heresy your starting age is increased by 3d10 years. So that puts the minimum age for a psyker at 19. 15+1d10+3d10. Take that as you may.

GolemsVoice

2013-01-27, 10:12 AM

You also have to account for travel time, however, to Terra and back again.

Dead_Jester

2013-01-27, 11:22 AM

You also have to account for travel time, however, to Terra and back again.

Which, in 40k, pretty much means anywhere from a few months to a few decades or worse.

Oracle_Hunter

2013-01-27, 12:23 PM

Which, in 40k, pretty much means anywhere from a few months to a few decades or worse.
But not subjective time -- at least AFAIK.

That is to say, it always takes the same amount of time for someone to exit the Warp (for them) when traveling to a given place but the time that passes outside the Warp in the meantime is highly variant (and occasionally negative).

Brother Oni

2013-01-27, 12:49 PM

But not subjective time -- at least AFAIK.

That is to say, it always takes the same amount of time for someone to exit the Warp (for them) when traveling to a given place but the time that passes outside the Warp in the meantime is highly variant (and occasionally negative).

Depends on whether they get lost. Every now and again a ship pops out of the Warp and it looks like it's spent centuries in there (surviving crew is optional).

bluntpencil

2013-01-27, 12:59 PM

The 3d10 is basically included in order to cover the travel time to Terra and back.

Miraqariftsky

2013-01-27, 01:07 PM

Alrighty, thanks. So, according to that logic, both Eisenhorn and Endor rolled a slew of 1s, because during their reminiscing scene in Malleus, it was mentioned that they were newly promoted to Interrogator at nineteen years of age?

Tome

2013-01-27, 01:33 PM

hamishspence

2013-01-27, 01:35 PM

An in-universe reason might be that their homeworlds were very close to Terra, enabling such a short transit time.

LeSwordfish

2013-01-27, 01:48 PM

I'd also disagree that 15 was the youngest. I'm sure i've heard of younger psykers, including 11-12. Zael was estimated at fourteen, I think.

thereaper

2013-01-27, 01:50 PM

bluntpencil

2013-01-27, 02:16 PM

Wraith

2013-01-27, 03:56 PM

I'd also disagree that 15 was the youngest. I'm sure i've heard of younger psykers, including 11-12. Zael was estimated at fourteen, I think.

An important difference is that Zael was either never Sanctioned.

To be Sanctioned requires service within the Scholasta Psykana - Zael was discovered by Ravenor aged "about" 14, stuck around for a few months and was then handed almost straight to the Grey Knights. He is then re-encountered as Hyperion, a fully grown and fully initiated Knight both physically and mentally (a process which takes years to complete for even normal Space Marines, and Grey Knights are far more rigorous).

And for further fun, Grey Knights are explicitly stated as being allowed to take potential recruits from the Black Ships before they reach Terra, so Grey Knights are definitely not Sanctioned. :smallsmile:

bluntpencil

2013-01-27, 03:58 PM

An important difference is that Zael was either never Sanctioned.

To be Sanctioned requires service within the Scholasta Psykana - Zael was discovered by Ravenor aged "about" 14, stuck around for a few months and was then handed almost straight to the Grey Knights. He is then re-encountered as Hyperion, a fully grown and fully initiated Knight both physically and mentally (a process which takes years to complete for even normal Space Marines, and Grey Knights are far more rigorous).

And for further fun, Grey Knights are explicitly stated as being allowed to take potential recruits from the Black Ships before they reach Terra, so Grey Knights are definitely not Sanctioned. :smallsmile:

The Deathwatch RPG implies that the majority of Librarians aren't Sanctioned, at least to begin with. Then again, they likely have their own traditions similar to Sanctioning.

In Deathwatch, a Librarian can purchase 'Rite of Sanctioning' as a Talent. They don't have it as standard, but can gain it. Notably, they don't need to go to Terra for it. Do Space Marines have an alternative to the pilgrimage to Terra Sanctioning?

Is the Emperor actually necessary for Sanctioning, or do they simply go to Terra to feed him? Those that are powerful enough don't have their soul eaten, and then go through a Sanctioning process which, actually, could have been done elsewhere?

LeSwordfish

2013-01-27, 04:09 PM

I meant the age at which powers developed, not the ending of sanctioning.

And whoa i gotta look up this "Hyperion" stuff.

(Though goddamn it Grey Knights Zael was such a classy name now he sounds like some dude with silver eyeshadow and a theramin.)

bluntpencil

2013-01-27, 04:12 PM

hamishspence

2013-01-27, 04:55 PM

We see a small child with alpha-plus level power in Abnett's Eisenhorn books (book 2: Malleus)

GolemsVoice

2013-01-27, 04:59 PM

Could it be that some Psykers are never sanctioned? Eisenhorn's talent is certainly useful for the thigns he does, but not overly powerful.

Then again, as far as I know, even astropaths are sanctioned. Maybe he just rolled lucky or his homeworld was close to Terra. Or the Warp was benevolent.

Wraith

2013-01-27, 05:09 PM

Is the Emperor actually necessary for Sanctioning, or do they simply go to Terra to feed him? Those that are powerful enough don't have their soul eaten, and then go through a Sanctioning process which, actually, could have been done elsewhere?

This is the difference between Sanctioning and Soul Binding.

Sanctioned Psykers are those who have been on the Black Ships, judged to be sufficiently powerful and yet possessing of suitable mental discipline, and are taken by the Scholastica Psykana. Here, they are trained to become Imperial Psykers - the type that are used by the Imperial Guard and the likes; to complete this training and be given 'permission' to walk among the populace, is to be Sanctioned (literally, "allowed").

A small number of Sanctioned Psykers - those of sufficient power and mental fortitude - are exposed to the Emperor's power directly, which burns out their eyes and rewires their brains and psychic potential. These maimed, Soul Bound Psykers are known as Astropaths.

So technically, no - Sanctioned Psykers don't have to visit the Golden Throne, so in theory they can be Sanctioned elsewhere. In practice though, it happens on Terra because that's where the Scholasta is based. Astropaths, on the other hand, can be made in one place alone, so they all share that background.

Could it be that some Psykers are never sanctioned? Eisenhorn's talent is certainly useful for the thigns he does, but not overly powerful.

Oh yes, quite definitely.
In the Imperium, Inquisitors are allowed to take unSanctioned Psykers into their warbands, although it's usually a very dangerous and foolhardy thing to attempt. There are other Psykers that act without Sanctioning, and they are universally criminal and usually heretical - a few turn up throughout the Eisenhorn and, in particular, the Ravenor books as antagonists. Typically, they're either very inconspicuous, or have very rich and powerful patrons who shield their identity for their own uses.

And there are, of course, those who are out-and-out Chaos Cultists; either Psykers who use the Ruinous Powers to enhance their abilities, or Blunts who serve the Gods and are rewarded with powers in return.

And whoa i gotta look up this "Hyperion" stuff.

Ech, sorry - I really ought to have Spoiler'd that. It's the big reveal at the end of the novel "The Emperor's Gift", so if you want to find out more, read that. And forget that I told you. :smallredface:

hamishspence

2013-01-27, 05:19 PM

Astropaths, on the other hand, can be made in one place alone, so they all share that background.

Given the sheer number of astropaths (a billion die at once in the incident known as The Howling) - and the fact that they're Soul Bound to the Emperor in groups of 100 at a time, then the Soul Binding room must be being used practically non-stop.

I wonder how long the process takes? Seconds? Minutes? We know not every candidate survives, and not every survivor comes out sane- so they'll need to drag off the crazy ones and the corpses quickly.

The Glyphstone

2013-01-27, 05:23 PM

A giant servitor-driven conveyor belt.

GolemsVoice

2013-01-27, 05:31 PM

I'd say it take probably about an hour. There's surely a lot of ritual and strapping people into horrible arcane machinery. The ACTUAL soulbinding likely takes only seconds (which might, given the psychical nature of the whole ordeal, feel much longer for the poor sod in the chair).

By the way, is it ever stated if the soulbinding occurs with the actual sould of the actual Emperor? (Now with 100% more Emperor!) Or is that just the explanation they (want to) believe?

hamishspence

2013-01-27, 05:45 PM

The books that mention it certainly phrase it that way. And even books written from the Chaos-centric perspective bring it up:

Rogue Trader p48:
"Those chosen to become Astropaths undergo the ritual of Soul Binding, in which the body and soul are scoured from the taint of the warp by the searing purity of the Emperor's beneficence. After months of fasting, prayer, and ritual preparation, the psykers are brought into the very depths of the Imperial Palace in processions of a hundred at a time, there to undergo a ritual that will kill them, drive them insane, or bind them for all eternity to the Emperor. So intense is the ritual that the supplicants' sensory organs are almost totally overloaded - leaving them blinded by the experience - with many suffering further nerve damage, incurring loss of smell, touch, or hearing."

Black Crusade p 205:
"The psykers of the imperium bind their powers to fearful dogma and the psychic bondage of the False Emperor, unable to grasp the true potential of their abilities and frequently unwilling to embrace the powers they possess, viewing them as a necessary evil."

bluntpencil

2013-01-27, 05:56 PM

If billions of Astropaths died at once during the Howling, we can work this out.

How old can an Astropath feasibly get to? Let's go for very old, just to be safe. Let's say 500.

Okay, so, let's say we have 2 billion Astropaths at once dying, with an average age of 200.

Right, in order to get that many Astropaths at any one time without them all dying of age, how quickly must they be Soul-Bound?

hamishspence

2013-01-27, 06:05 PM

500's a bit high given how taxing astropathy is- still, allowing it for the moment, and assuming all astropaths come in at around 15.

485 years of non-stop Astropath binding, at a rate of 100 a time.

If they were bound once per second, after 485 years some 1530 billion would have been bound.

If they were bound once every 10 minutes, after 485 years some 2.55 billion would have been bound.

Of course, we don't know what percentage die or go insane in the process, therefore being unusable.

Tome

2013-01-27, 06:25 PM

Assuming those figures, that only one ritual may be conducted at once, a 100% survival rate and that the billions in question are short-scale billions, the soul-binding ritual must take 10-15 minutes.

But the survival rate is known not to be 100%, and anything shorter just seems too ridiculous, so something must be off. I'd say either multiple rituals can be conducted at once, or some writer didn't bother to do the math and just threw in the Howling for the sake of grimderp without considering the ramifications.

bluntpencil

2013-01-27, 06:26 PM

hamishspence

2013-01-27, 06:34 PM

But the survival rate is known not to be 100%, and anything shorter just seems too ridiculous, so something must be off.

I'd be OK with a short duration. It's a big galaxy, you need a lot of astropaths to cover the worlds and the fleets.

GolemsVoice

2013-01-27, 06:55 PM

However, I got the impression that "heavy-duty" astropaths on low-priority worlds burn out much faster, especially if the technology to keep them alive isn't available/to expenive.

hamishspence

2013-01-27, 07:01 PM

Which would push the rate of induction required, even higher- thus shortening the duration the ritual can be.

bluntpencil

2013-01-27, 07:18 PM

I would go with "It takes but a minute, but it feels like an eternity."

GolemsVoice

2013-01-27, 07:26 PM

It certainly stays with you forever. However, the Dark Heresy side-effects table include fun stuff like a pentagrammatically warded tongue and mouth, so it might well be that either the psykers themselves or their "handlers" sometimes get a little overzealous and subject the psykers to whatever rituals they thought up.

Tome

2013-01-27, 07:45 PM

Squark

2013-01-27, 10:07 PM

Orks are very good at whatever they put their mind to, in their own orky way. So it makes sense that Wierdboyz probably can navigate reasonably well.

EDIT: Whoops, responded to a post two pages ago.

shadow_archmagi

2013-01-28, 07:28 AM

Orks are very good at whatever they put their mind to, in their own orky way. So it makes sense that Wierdboyz probably can navigate reasonably well.

As per the Navis Primer, they're actually drastically inferior to a real navigator, since they always count as having been unable to find the Astronomicon, and also because Orks don't really care where they go. Certainly much better than having no navigator though, and a sufficiently large WAAAGH would probably have a sufficiently high ranking weirdboy to get reliable warp transit.

Platinius

2013-01-28, 10:45 AM

I imagine they don't need to be that good because Orcs just want a place where they can do their fightin' and lootin' rather than coming out at specific destinations like humans

shadow_archmagi

2013-01-28, 12:48 PM

I imagine they don't need to be that good because Orcs just want a place where they can do their fightin' and lootin' rather than coming out at specific destinations like humans

Well, sometimes (The Wars for Armageddon come to mind) the Orks have a particular place in mind that they'd like to fight and loot.

Kesnit

2013-02-01, 05:59 PM

This may have been discussed before. If so, sorry. I am just now getting around to reading the Ciaphas Cain books...

Cain frequently mentions Jurgen's lack of personal hygiene, specifically, his body odor. Jurgan is known to be a Blank, which means he causes unease in those around him.

I can't help but wonder if Jurgan's "body odor" is just the manifestation of being a Blank. In other words, Jurgan could spend 23 hours a day washing, but would still "stink" to other people because he is a Blank.

Would that be possible, or does Jurgan just really never wash? :smallsmile:

Brother Oni

2013-02-01, 06:12 PM

Would that be possible, or does Jurgan just really never wash? :smallsmile:

Perfectly possible, but there's also the possibility that Jurgen knows what he is and has deliberately cultivated his odour and skin diseases to give people a reason to stay away.

After all, people who make others uneasy just by being near, tend to attract the attention of officials looking for psykers. People who make others uneasy because they smell like old boots and have flaking skin just get avoided.

Cheesegear

2013-02-01, 06:19 PM

I can't help but wonder if Jurgan's "body odor" is just the manifestation of being a Blank. In other words, Jurgan could spend 23 hours a day washing, but would still "stink" to other people because he is a Blank.

It is hinted several times throughout the novel that Jurgen's aura is connected to his stench. Being able to smell Jurgen through walls should be possible after all. He washes several times a day, and even has smell fresheners on his person which don't work for no reason.

The Glyphstone

2013-02-01, 06:23 PM

It's hinted at in...Death or Glory, I think? The First Siege of Perlia, where Cain is leading the refugee band through the army of Orks. They find an oasis, everyone washes up, but within minutes Cain mentions that Jurgen has somehow picked up a patina of grime and smells bad again.

Cheesegear

2013-02-01, 06:29 PM

And of course, pretty much every novel has this line;

"...and then I smelled the familiar smell of Jurgen, and right then, [X] lost his super powers and I win."

The Glyphstone

2013-02-01, 06:32 PM

yeah, but that's an entirely separate issue from whether or not Jurgen's smell is literal or psychic.

And c'mon, that's not an actual line in every book. The line in every book (frequently multiple times per book) is "If I'd known then what I know now/what lay ahead/what I was in for, I wouldn't have...".

LeSwordfish

2013-02-02, 03:16 AM

No the line in every book is "And then they all turned to look at me and i had no choice but to..."

...Okay I see CG's point about the Cain books.

Cheesegear

2013-02-02, 08:02 AM

Deus ex Jurgens. Every. Single. Book.
For the Emperor; Jurgen disrupts the Genestealer Telepathy. Even though Genestealers don't do anything with the Warp. Cain wins.
Caves of Ice; Instead of compounding the Pariah's fear-effect with his own Blankness, Jurgen somehow cancels it out which doesn't make any sense. Cain wins.
Traitor's Hand; Jurgen cancels out the Slaanshi psyker. Cain wins.
Death or Glory; Jurgen does something to the Waaagh! circuit, somehow holding the Orks at bay. It doesn't make any sense. Cain wins.
Duty Calls; Jurgen messes up a Hive Tyrant - which admittedly do have something to do with the Warp this time. Cain wins.
Cain's Last Stand; Jurgen cancels out Varan (no, not Varren (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Macer_Varren#.UQ0O5R2Tz3U)). Cain wins.

I haven't read the latest two books - I'm not sure I want to. So I can't comment on those ones.

Miraqariftsky

2013-02-02, 08:45 AM

Tangentially related to the oh-so-invinvible BLESSED Cain-and-Jurgen... Don't Gotrek-and-Felix from the Warhammer Old World have a similar near-unbeatable hero dynamic going?

Yet still in both cases, the readers still come back, for the journey and the asskicking, the fellowship and the fighting, the brooding and the laughter.

hamishspence

2013-02-02, 08:48 AM

I haven't read the latest two books - I'm not sure I want to. So I can't comment on those ones.

Three books now- The Emperor's Finest, The Last Ditch, and The Greater Good.
In none of which does Jurgen's "blank field" help Cain win. His well timed shots, or grenade throws, or obedience to Cain's orders, on the other hand...

And I can't remember Jurgen "cancelling out the Waagh field" in Death Or Glory- can you give me the text?

Squark

2013-02-02, 09:24 AM

I'm pretty sure that was just the warboss challenging Cain to single combat (followed by a lucky trick on Cain's part).

Issabella

2013-02-02, 09:32 AM

Nor in the latest Cain book

In fact Cain has to send Jurgen away to keep him from messiung the psyker he was sacrifcing to screw with the Hive mind

That being said wasn't one of Inquisitor Vails comments that Jurgen is actually the hero of the story? Or something to that effect?

Squark

2013-02-02, 09:49 AM

I think that's actually Sandy Mitchell's comment- Something to the effect of Jurgen might be the real hero of the story, if anyone ever deigned to notice him.

The Glyphstone

2013-02-02, 12:47 PM

Brother Oni

2013-02-02, 05:02 PM

No one is arguing Deus Ex Jurgen. But there are literally the words, in some variation of 'If I'd known what lay ahead...[something cowardly here]", in Every. Single. Book. It gets more annoying at times, since you can rely on Deus Ex Jurgen to usually only happen once near the end.

I believe Amberly's compiling these from various audio records from Cain's unsorted and unpublished memoirs that were dictated.
As Cain's a fairly cranky old man by this time (pushing 200 subjectively I think), it makes sense for him to have various verbal tics and ingrained habits and as the recollections have been made out of chronological order, he probably didn't noticed it at the time.

Or it could just be lazy writing by Sandy Mitchell for Cain to have an easily identifiable catchphrase.

Issabella

2013-02-04, 09:13 PM

Tome

2013-02-04, 09:48 PM

On Tau controlled human worlds, how are psykers handled? When under the greater good do human psykers sudenly stop appearing? Do they no longer create a warp/chaos effect when they run amuk? Or do the Tau simply "disapear" those humans when the signs first start showing up, like a Tau inquisistion!

I honestly have no idea, Tau fluff is iffy. Most of what we've had since the last codex has been from an explicitly Imperial viewpoint, and thus somewhat dubious. We have almost zero information on what conditions are like on their worlds at this point.

That said, the Tau do have at least one race made entirely of psykers in their empire according to the fluff, so I'd imagine that they'd have some way of dealing with it without just vanishing the psyker in question. My best guess? Either they have some way to contain them or they let their psychically-active auxiliaries train them.

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-04, 10:17 PM

I imagine it'd depend heavily on the cirumstances. If he was obviously a danger to himself and others, Tau might decide he needs to die to save everyone else. If he proved capable of controlling his powers, they'd probably do their best to train and educate him.

Since the Tau are pretty heavily based on eastern cultures, it seems likely that a high degree of mental fortitude and internal discipline would be prized in their culture. I can imagine that everyone in Tau society takes meditation lessons anyway. In this relatively supportive and tranquil environment, psykers might have much better odds to avoid insanity and corruption.

DaedalusMkV

2013-02-05, 03:17 AM

The Nicassar would be of limited help in training human psykers, since they're natural, instinctive Telekinetics who basically just meditate 24/7. Though, the thought of a six-legged floating polar bear teaching humans how not to blow themselves up is pretty amusing...

Still, the only canon at all to go on on this subject is secondary sources that state the Tau are 'dangerously naive' when it comes to Psykers and anything really to do with the Warp. Beyond that, it's all a completely unwritten void of information. Barring a new codex to expand on the fluff in this area, you could do pretty much anything you like without breaking canon. Plus, I can see Tau executing Psykers 'for the good of the community' just as easily as I can see them containing and studying them. Pretty much the only thing that wouldn't make sense is the Tau training psykers themselves, since they really wouldn't have the slightest clue where to begin. It might be that other Gue'vesa psykers do the training, though...

Brother Oni

2013-02-05, 07:13 AM

I was ruminating on a possible 40k:Commissar game in the Licensed games you'd like to see (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270458) thread and the thought struck me - we know of and have seen mixed gender IG regiments, but are there any mixed race ones?

I know race in 40K means something different, but when portraying it for our non-40th Millenium sensibilities, minor things like ethnicity and skin colour still matter.
I know that IG regiments tend to be homogeneous culturally, since they're all raises from a single planet, which leads to the implication that they're all of the same ethnicity. The only regiment that I'm aware of that's significantly hetergeneous is the Tanith First and Only and of the first three books I've read, skin colour's irrelevant (admittedly they first take on new recruits at the end of the third book).

hamishspence

2013-02-05, 07:46 AM

Cain's regiment- some Valhallans in it are dark skinned, and implied to be descended from recent immigrants to Valhalla.

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-05, 10:18 AM

What's the chain of command with regard to Space Marines? They seem to be outside of the general structure of the Guard, but frequently work with it. I know they get called in to deal with problems too big for the Guard alone, but I'm unclear as to who does the calling. Does the local General in charge of the situation do it? Is it like a troop deployment, where the Chapter is immediately obligated to send troops, or more of a "Gondor calls for aid!" thing, where the Chapter Master can weigh the situation for himself and decide if he should send marines and if so how many etc.

Also, I remember from the DoW games that the Force Commander is free to seize control of Guard units- Is this an ability of his rank as Force Commander, or can any Space Marine nick any IG force?

The Glyphstone

2013-02-05, 10:22 AM

Space Marines do whatever they want. The guard can ask very nicely for Space Marines to come, but the Chapter has no obligation to give them so much as a Scout squad. They're entirely outside the regular command structure. Presumably, whoever's in charge of the deployment of Guard will send the request - the Lord General or whatever who's overseeing the entire force.

That does mean they technically can't order Imperial Guard around in most cases - there will be a 'liason officer' appointed to coordinate IG and SM operations - but if the Space Marines are there in the first place, the situation is pretty bad, so doing what they 'ask' is usually the smart decision even if they weren't eight foot tall superhumans in power armor.

GolemsVoice

2013-02-05, 10:46 AM

It's also the thing that SM get a lot of leeway in what they're doing. Space Marines are also sometimes seen as legendary beings, figurative or literal angels of the Emperor, so a lot of folks do what they say out of simple reverence.

Squark

2013-02-05, 11:46 AM

bluntpencil

2013-02-05, 12:26 PM

There are exceptions of course, largely made for Commissar Yarrick and nobody else.

The Glyphstone

2013-02-05, 12:52 PM

Plus, saavy commanders keep in mind that the Veteran Seargent they're talking to has been fighting the enemies of the emperor since before their parents were born in many cases. So, they're a wealth of information and good advice if you're willing to listen.

And if they're willing to offer it. Most Astartes tend to have a bit of a (deserved) superiority complex going on.

LeSwordfish

2013-02-05, 01:30 PM

Salvations Reach goes into this a bit. The Astartes are all, like, "I saw your battle plans. They were not irredeemable. I have altered them." to the people nominally in command of them. It's also explained that, basically, Gaunts track record and lifetime of service is barely enough to get them to not throw away his request unread.

Brother Oni

2013-02-05, 01:54 PM

Cain's regiment- some Valhallans in it are dark skinned, and implied to be descended from recent immigrants to Valhalla.

Ah, so it's probably very commonplace to have mixed ethnicities in guard regiments, just not mentioned much.

It's also the thing that SM get a lot of leeway in what they're doing. Space Marines are also sometimes seen as legendary beings, figurative or literal angels of the Emperor, so a lot of folks do what they say out of simple reverence.

This is one of the things I like about the Space Marine game. In addition to the general awe and reverence the IG survivors mutter when Captain Titus first shows up, when he's asking questions of a Guardsman later, the guardsman automatically addresses him as 'sir' then immediately apologises and changes it to 'my lord' instead.

iyaerP

2013-02-05, 02:53 PM

This is one of the things I like about the Space Marine game. In addition to the general awe and reverence the IG survivors mutter when Captain Titus first shows up, when he's asking questions of a Guardsman later, the guardsman automatically addresses him as 'sir' then immediately apologises and changes it to 'my lord' instead.

Well, that's the thing. If you look at the fluff, a lot of it has straight up imperial creed that not only are space marines super-badasses in power armour, but that they are in a literal and factual sense, the Emperor's will made manifest. They are the bringers of his wrath and his Angels of Death. That line is not paraphrasing as far as your average Imperial citizen is concerned. Imperial creed tells us that the space marines are literal angels, come to massacre the enemies of the imperium.

So then take your average guardsman. He knows a fair bit more about just how grim, dark, terrible and malevolent the universe is. But he has survived that, at least for the time being, and maybe even managed to kill some of whatever eldrich abombination he is fighting this week. He'd probably qualify for Special Forces by today's standard, and he is most certainly pretty baller. And he knows just how puny and insignificant he is compared to just about anything that he will be shooting at. But things have not gone well lately. This current campaign that he is fighting in, wherever it is, has one on a bit longer and a bit bloodier than most. Rather than the normal 50-80% casualty rate, his unit has seen much much worse, and this is a problm planet wide. He doesn't get any intel about how the war is going, but judging by how nervous the officers are and how many of them the commissars are weeding out for "incomtetance" and "cowardice", he can connect the dots. Also, they have fallen back a few too many times. Guardsmen aren't supposed to fall back all of the priests and officers say, but it is happening anyway. The armoured support that they are supposed to have has long been demolished and they are operating pretty much on a wish and a shoestring at this point.

So there we have our scene established. And the space marines arrive. It doesn't matter much which chapter they come from or what tactics they use; they are space marines, and fluff-marines to boot, not the watered down ones from the tabletop. They show up, and Mr Lone Guardsman watches them scythe through the enemy that has been slaughtering his whole division with laughable ease and during a brief respite in the fighting, he actually gets the chance to talk to one of these mythical giants of legend.

So it doest not suprise me in the least to hear him say "My Lord"

Yeah, I liked that bit too. Space Marine was a fun game.

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-05, 03:12 PM

iyaerP

2013-02-05, 03:22 PM

I feel like Skitarii and tech priests were excluded because the amount of downright creepy augmentations that they have would have played with the ratings and made the game creepier than it already was. Think about just how disgusting and terrifying some of the "normal" things the Imperium has would be to our everyday audience for the game. The skull-only servitors were okay. Anyone who doesn't know their 40K lore probably just took the skulls on the front to be a bit of gaudy design rather than an actual human skull with a living brain inside. Half-human, half robot slave servitors used to haul around heavy loads? Or human-brains built directly into computers to serve as cogitators in something that makes the matrix scenes look prudish and mild? Probably not going to fly with the mainstream audience.

Also: art assets. Graphical designers, as a rule of thumb, can do humans just fine. Teaching them to do the Adeptus Mechanicus was probably something that got cut in a budget meeting somewhere.

Brother Oni

2013-02-05, 04:22 PM

Space Marine still really ticked me off for having the Skitarii just all be dead when you arrive. The Tech-Guard are a huge upgrade over the Imperial Guard, and invading a Forge World should be an incredibly poor decision for anyone that isn't a chapter or two of space marines.

It's an ork Waaagh. Stupid decisions are par for the course. :smalltongue:

In any case, probably not all the Skitarii are dead, just the ones in the immediate area.
That said, by the time the Space Marines show up, the orks have pretty much conquered the planet with only isolated pockets of resistance left.

Cadian infantry regiments number 8000 strong according to the Lexicanum and the 203rd got mauled so badly, that the most senior officer remaining is a 2LT, who usually commands at the platoon level (20-60 guardsmen).

bluntpencil

2013-02-05, 04:32 PM

Cadian infantry regiments number 8000 strong according to the Lexicanum and the 203rd got mauled so badly, that the most senior officer remaining is a 2LT, who usually commands at the platoon level (20-60 guardsmen).

That being said, they could have simply had very dumb senior officers, who all happened to be in the same place at once.

iyaerP

2013-02-05, 04:56 PM

That being said, they could have simply had very dumb senior officers, who all happened to be in the same place at once.

They're cadians. One would hope that they wouldn't be that incompetant.

Brother Oni

2013-02-06, 06:49 AM

That being said, they could have simply had very dumb senior officers, who all happened to be in the same place at once.

Unless the orks over-ran Regimental HQ, or the 203rd got really unlucky during planetfall with multiple officer carrying dropships being destroyed, I'm inclined to think it's more likely to be attrition and the orks out-hording the guardsmen.

Let's say the 203rd was at full strength (it was deploying to another warzone and got re-directed to Graia).

A typical regiment is 8000 strong and is led by a colonel, their adjujant (usually a major or a Lt. Col) and various other staff officers.
A regiment is typically composed of 2-30 companies, which are between 100-400 strong and are led by captains.
A company consists of 2-6 platoons, each of which are led by lieutenants.

So the 203rd with 20 companies (8000/400) would have somewhere in the region of 140+ commissioned officers, of which only one has survived.

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-06, 02:54 PM

BRC

2013-02-06, 03:02 PM

I also wish we knew more about the Waaagh, and how they managed to do so astonishingly well. I mean, I know that their leader is smarter than your average bear, but that alone doesn't seem to account for how they just blow through the guard.
Remember that even a scrawny Ork is physically stronger and tougher than even an exceptionally fit normal human (Exempting groups like the Ogrens (Who are only technically "Human") or the Catachens (Who are all Rambo)). They may be funny, but they're hardly a joke. Taking down a Guard regiment is hardly extraordinary for a Waaagh.

It's also possible that there are superior officers around, they're just cut off from communication and hiding from Orks.

Brother Oni

2013-02-06, 05:26 PM

I also wish we knew more about the Waaagh, and how they managed to do so astonishingly well. I mean, I know that their leader is smarter than your average bear, but that alone doesn't seem to account for how they just blow through the guard.

In addition to BRC's post, it was apparently a very big Waaagh, in the order of millions strong.

It was extremely fortunate for the Imperium that they didn't have time to get any gargants up, or loot any titans.

LeSwordfish

2013-02-06, 06:32 PM

Is it possible that the regiment was marked down as a lost cause, and only the officer cadre were marked down for evacuation?

That sounds suitably GrimDark, but not especially Cadian.

Acanous

2013-02-06, 06:48 PM

Is it possible that the regiment was marked down as a lost cause, and only the officer cadre were marked down for evacuation?

That sounds suitably GrimDark, but not especially Cadian.

As seen in the Cain novels, when Evacuation is called for, it's on a "Whoever is close enough to a Thunderhawk" basis, not by rank. (Though the command staff are usually competant enough to put a Thunderhawk close by :p)

Edit: This is probably because "Imperial guard don't retreat", not just due to disorganized stupidity.

If things have gotten bad enough for them to evac, they only CAN evac whoever is close to a thunderhawk, and can't affoard sallies into enemy territory, for anyone who'se not a high lord of Terra.

t209

2013-02-06, 09:47 PM

Bad News for Dark Angels lore
Chaos finally knew about their traitor brethren. Time will tell if they will release the secrets and get them branded as traitors.

Cheesegear

2013-02-07, 02:15 AM

Games Workshop - trying to kill Sci-Fi. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14664402#post14664402)
*head desk*

Brother Oni

2013-02-07, 03:03 AM

If things have gotten bad enough for them to evac, they only CAN evac whoever is close to a thunderhawk, and can't affoard sallies into enemy territory, for anyone who'se not a high lord of Terra.

I was under the impression that they couldn't retreat as the orks and Imperial Navy were still slugging it out in orbit and the atmosphere, with fire so thick, a thunderhawk couldn't get through and the Ultramarines had to jump pack in from the upper atmosphere.
I believe that 2Lt Mirra mentioned the 203rd lost all reinforcements and re-supplies once the orks took control of the anti-orbital defences and that's when things went from bad to worse.

Or their transport were shot by orcs and killed most of the officers.

I did mention that possibility in my first paragraph, but given that the Commanding Officer and the Executive Officer should never travel on the same transport, not to mention all the junior officers would be dispersed among their respective companies/platoons and any remaining staff officers riding where they like, destroying a single transport, or even a couple of transports, shouldn't be crippling to the regiment's command structure (which is why they're all split up in the first place).

Games Workshop - trying to kill Sci-Fi. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14664402#post14664402)
*head desk*

On the plus side, the latest update (http://mcahogarth.org/?p=10638) indicates that the case is encouraging, although obviously the author obviously can't discuss it.

I'm somewhat conflicted by this: while I agree that it's a **** move by GW and the case deserves to be laughed out of court (and probably will - I suspect that this is another case of the big guy strongarming the little guy), I still like 40K.
Is there a way of supporting an IP without supporting the owning company?

After all, if they get the generic term 'space marine', they're probably going to go after anything else that's even vaguely reminiscent - the Colonial Marines from the Alien franchise for example.

Cheesegear

2013-02-07, 03:42 AM

Is there a way of supporting an IP without supporting the owning company?

I don't suspect this is the case. I'm fairly certain the author is using the term 'Space Marine' as it applies in pre-80's sci-fi. That is, simply, 'Special Forces (Marines) in SPAAACE! (Space)'. Space Marines.

StarCraft has been using the term 'Space Marine' for years and years. Irrespective of the fact that Blizzard did actually steal a lot of stuff from GW.

And here's a list of uses for the term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Marine), going back as far as 1932. Although the obvious big ticket is Robert Heinlein who used the term throughout the 30-60s. What? Is GW planning to remove all the works of one of pioneers of Sci-Fi?

Brother Oni

2013-02-07, 03:51 AM

I don't suspect this is the case.

You've mis-understood me. I like 40K. I don't like GW. Is there a way I can like 40K without supporting GW?

I've got no objection to authors using the term 'Space Marine', especially with all the prior art available, although I think Starcraft just calls them 'marines'.

Also I think it's less 'special forces' and more 'infantry forces primarily deployed by Navy vessels for which the relevant Earth-based term is marine' as the influence.

Cheesegear

2013-02-07, 04:14 AM

Also I think it's less 'special forces' and more 'infantry forces primarily deployed by Navy vessels...

Space is an ocean. Or so I heard.

Brother Oni

2013-02-07, 04:29 AM

Space is an ocean. Or so I heard.

Going by that definition, the Army and Air Force are just a branches of the Navy since aircraft are just submarines adapted for a different medium and AFVs are land ships (which is an old term I've heard used for tanks and looking at the TOG2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOG2), I can see the resemblance). :smalltongue:

hamishspence

2013-02-07, 06:15 AM

Definitely a valid interpretation of Thunderhawks, and early model Marauders and Thunderbolts- they were spacecraft adapted for atmosphere.

Eventually Marauders & Thunderbolts became atmosphere-only, using their rockets only to get them into and out of atmosphere, and almost never fighting in space.

LeSwordfish

2013-02-07, 07:24 AM

Personally, i reckon GW may have bitten off more than they can chew this time. Let's hope the fuss is enough to make them back off in general.

mistformsquirrl

2013-02-07, 09:38 AM

You've mis-understood me. I like 40K. I don't like GW. Is there a way I can like 40K without supporting GW?

I've got no objection to authors using the term 'Space Marine', especially with all the prior art available, although I think Starcraft just calls them 'marines'.

Also I think it's less 'special forces' and more 'infantry forces primarily deployed by Navy vessels for which the relevant Earth-based term is marine' as the influence.

My solution to this kind of thing has been to mostly buy models from other companies. I buy a bit from GW here and there where I feel there's no better option; but the infantry for my Guard army for instance are all going to be Pig Iron Kolony Militia (with alternate heads from Hasslefree); and my tanks are being scratchbuilt from Revell King Tigers (with a few Leman Russ parts and some plasticard for good measure.)

That said it'd be rough to do that for some armies... Guard are both widely varied and generic; others are highly specific; though then again you might just find something you like from another mini manufacturer. Obviously this will depend in part on if you're just collecting or if you're playing and with who, too.

Wraith

2013-02-07, 09:41 AM

You've mis-understood me. I like 40K. I don't like GW. Is there a way I can like 40K without supporting GW?

Buy your models, books, scenery etc from eBay and other second hand locals. Never from a store - even FLGS sell new, which gets back to GW in revenue.

On a related note, the author in question has made a very polite and well measured request that, should anyone wish to make a comment to GW regarding the situation, they do so through the correct channels - shouting at some poor minion on the reception desk or in the call center is not going to help anyone, let alone get it as far as the policy makers' office.

That being said, I feel inclined to add my voice in protest. While I'm on my 'phone my access to the GW site is limited, so I don't suppose anyone would know where best to send an email or leave a message?

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-07, 10:56 AM

My solution to this kind of thing has been to mostly buy models from other companies. I buy a bit from GW here and there where I feel there's no better option; but the infantry for my Guard army for instance are all going to be Pig Iron Kolony Militia (with alternate heads from Hasslefree); and my tanks are being scratchbuilt from Revell King Tigers (with a few Leman Russ parts and some plasticard for good measure.)

That said it'd be rough to do that for some armies... Guard are both widely varied and generic; others are highly specific; though then again you might just find something you like from another mini manufacturer. Obviously this will depend in part on if you're just collecting or if you're playing and with who, too.

Don't Orks in particular have a rule somewhere saying that anything that looks Orky, is Orky, thus encouraging players to design their own wildly impractical-looking spikey models?

That said: Gosh darn it. How does GW so consistently screw everyone around them? I would really like to be on their side but their PR department is relentless in its need to make me hate them.

Zorg

2013-02-07, 12:30 PM

That being said, I feel inclined to add my voice in protest. While I'm on my 'phone my access to the GW site is limited, so I don't suppose anyone would know where best to send an email or leave a message?

You want to send it to [email protected] - people sending emails to customer service have gotten responses to send there instead.

One comment I've seen made reference to the fact that while GW does have a trade mark on Space Marine, it may not be applicable to books due to being a specific class (take with salt).

Biggest issue is that Amazon has already done the take down so in order to get it lifted the author basically has to prove her "innocence", even though the notice by GW had no legal weight in reality, so while potentially simple it may be far more expensive than it's worth for the author.
Oh, and just to add to the GW hate the author donates part of her sales to the Wounded Warrior charity. Smooth move, GeeDub.

GolemsVoice

2013-02-07, 06:49 PM

Email sent, I think Hogarth deserves this little support!

Zorg

2013-02-08, 10:22 AM

Well, looks like either GW or Amazon have blinked (http://www.amazon.com/Spots-Space-Marine-Defense-ebook/dp/B006MGJYOE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1360332071&sr=8-2&keywords=spots+the+space+marine).

iyaerP

2013-02-08, 10:57 AM

Going by that definition, the Army and Air Force are just a branches of the Navy since aircraft are just submarines adapted for a different medium and AFVs are land ships (which is an old term I've heard used for tanks and looking at the TOG2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOG2), I can see the resemblance). :smalltongue:

It is a reference to the thematic approach that most science fiction takes to its portrayal of how space works by just transplanting various tropes, stories and ideas from oceanic and naval stories and combat directly into !!SPAAAAACEE!! A good example of this is the Star Trek TOS episode Balance of Terror whis is basically just The Enemy Below (An old submarine movie) with Kirk and the Enterprise as the American Destroyer and the Romulans and their Warbird as the Germans and their U-boat.

This is actually a trope that pops up all over scifi, not just in naming and rank conventions. A good example is anything by David Weber, who has a tendancy to do things such as create the physics of how ships move in his universe in such a precise way as to be able to recreate almost scene for scene Horatio Hornblower !!IN SPACE!! For how 40K fits this trope to a T? Just look at the ship designs. Broadside speciallist designs with ramming prows, pressed gang mass labour rather than efficient machinery. Age of sail/ironclad much?

Hell, the Eldar literally have to tack into the solar wind because they are no joke: Sailing ships in space. Everything from "favourable warp currents" that mimic real life trade winds just so that there can be common merchant shipping lanes for space pirates to attack, to warp storms that server pretty much the same literary role as hurricanes or gales do, space is an ocean. The fiction where this is not the case is few and far between.

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-08, 12:30 PM

It's worth noting that this isn't really a criticism of the medium in most cases. I mean, 90% of the time, if I'm reading a book and I'm like "Hang on, this is just U-boats with lasers!" then my next thought is "Awesome, I *love* U-boats! And I love lasers! This is a perfect combo!"

I really liked James Cameron's Avatar because I felt like adding Dreadnoughts to Pocohauntus was a no-brainer.

iyaerP

2013-02-08, 04:20 PM

Yeah, balance of terror was awesome, even if the depth-charge-phaser-bolts bit was slightly odd

I contrarily, really DISliked avatar because of how insufferably stupid BOTH sides were. Warning: Wall o'text rant.

Why couldn't Jake sully just goddamn tell the natives that "Look, I am only just the messenger here, and hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in 3 months time, the big jerks who run this show are coming for your tree."? Instead, he spends 3 months just screwing around and gets justifiably blamed by both sides when problems crop up.

On the note of the tree, why couldn't they just mine UNDER the damned thing. Deep earth mines are a thing here on earth in the modern day. I can only hope that we haven't lost competancy in that department 150 years in the future. Yes, they had the giant spinny-wheel of death bucket-scoops, but those are only useful for surface-mining anyway, they can't dig down, and that deposit was clearly shown to be deep underground (About half the height of the tree at least if the hologram is to scale, and there is no reason to think that it isn't.)

Also, the hammer-head space rhinocerous. Yes, I can accept that it might be bullet-proof to small arms fire, but what Jake has in that scene is not "small arms." He is carrying around the door gun from their transport helicoptor. Heavy machine gun equivilent for sure. So that thing better be at LEAST the equal of a Browning M2. Because here is the thing: a .50 cal round from an M2 has sufficient kinetic energy to upon impact, to tear a human leg or arm off while shattering every bone in the limb and liquifying the flesh. Back in WW2, they mounted them on planes and used the for TANK HUNTING. Granted, the roof armour on a Tiger II, the heaviest tank to see mass production was "only" 40 mm thick(1.6 inches for the americans), but I do not see mr. hammerhead space rhino as having a thicker hide and tougher flesh than an inch and a half of face-hardened steel. Poachers today hunt elephants and rhinos on earth using AK-47s, a gun that fires a 7.62mm round with much less kinetic energy than the M2's .50 cal. I can only assume that 200 years of weapons development has Jake's weapon as better than a WW2 gun. And that is only using the HMG that Sully was carrying when he first met said space rhino. Let us take a look at rhino vs mech, which James Cameron would have us believe that the rhino wins.

According to the official avatar companion-book that I found in Borders about a week after the film came out (it was mostly pretty pictures and concept art with a bunch of annotations thrown in to make it look more like a tech manual and less like a scrapbook of anything they could throw togeather to make money off the mega-hit), the weapon that the mech suits were carrying was a 30mm Autocannon. Now, this is where things get absurd, because a modern 30mm autocannon such as say.... the GAU-8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger), fires pound and a half shells at 1070 meters/second, and is rated to pierce 70mm of tank armour at 500 meters. The USAF mounts a plane on this gun and uses it to hunt tanks. Yes, you read that right. The A-10 was built to carry this gun around, not vice versa. Now, this is done using 1970s tech. The ammunition fired by a GAU-8 is a combination of armour piercing, armour piercing incendiary, and high explosive anti-tank. What this means is a nice cosy mix of shaped charges of molten metal, self sharpening depleted uranium and burning bullets that can set steel on fire. Honestly, that should be enough on that subject, but wait, THERE'S MORE!

Pandora is said to be a lower gravity than Earth world to explain all of the everything being bigger/stronger/faster. And some of that makes sense. Some of it. A low gravity would WOULD be able to support taller life forms and larger ones too, but as a general rule, they would have a lower muscle and bone strenth and density than their higher gravity counterparts from Earth. Consequently, if those Na'vi bows are strong enough to punch through armoured glass, then the Na'vi aren't strong enough to draw said bows. This is actually a very real problem for astronauts on long-term missions to the ISS, and an obstacle to be overcome for any potential Mars or Moon colony. Humans and animals lose bone and muscle mass in space because said bone and muscle aren't used, so this means that Hammerhead Space Rhinocerouses are less strong and have lower bone density than normal earth rhinocerous and elephants even if they are more massive overall. The lower gravity allows for larger size than earth equivilents or a higher mass/volume on muscle and bone. Not both, and the movie clearly shows that pandoran wildlife evolved for size.

So what does this all mean? Gaia'sEwaa's revenge via charge of monsterous wildlife at the mechanized gunline of the human forces would have been a complete slaughter. And not in the way that the movie showed it.

That however, glaring issue though it is, was not the only thing that bugged me. Nor even was it the biggest and most glaring bit of stupidity. Why, oh why, did they use an orbital supply shuttle, quite clearly capable of lifting into space to dock with the mothership make a low-altitude bombing run. And that was low altitude. The stupid flying mountains were higher up than they were. They didn't even need to go to space, just high enough that the na'vi wouldn't be able to breathe. Don't tell me you can genetically engineer human/Na'vi hybrids for the avatar program, but you don't know what altitude they stop being able to breathe is. And it isn't like the humans didn't know about their pet mutalisks either. They had no excuse. "Ooooh, but what about the magnetic fields of the mountains that was screwing up their instuments?" I hear you say. Again, altitude is the solution to your problems here. Magnetic force falls off as a square of distance, so simply by going high enough to be free of birdy attacks, you are also making sure your insturments are in good working order, which, coincidentally, will make for a more accurate bombing run than a low altitude one with haywire computers, trying to optically target the tree through the fog.

Going back to the big gunline battle for a moment, what was even the point of that anyway? It served no purpose other than to leave the base defenceless, and it wasn't like the bombing run needed eyes on the ground. The orbital shuttle could have flown in, dropped its bombss and flown out again without those ground elements there. All it was doing was leaving their ground forces without support and = vulnerable to encirclement and envelopment, something that Jake, a trained marine should have recognized and exploited rather than the stupid head-on charge that he ordered. Where did he learn his tactics? From the Confederates at Gettysburg?

Speaking of the floating mountains? You know what? I don't care. Those were just so blatantly over the top that I don't give a damn. Nobody watching that should require my expalination there.

I realize that this has been the rant of doom, and toally off topic, but to be quite honest, I spent half of that movie yelling at the screen and the other half watching the scenery porn, and by the end I was cheering for the bad guys to win. Just because how anvilicious it was. And because Quartich was easily the most awesome charachter in the whole film. Here's I am a flaming liberal in real life, so it wasn't a case of me approving of colonial exploitation or the obvious oil-connection analogy or anything. This isn't to say that I did not enjoy avatar. I just don't think I enjoyed it quite the way you were supposed to.

TLDR: James Cameron cannot into physics.

Squark

2013-02-10, 05:42 PM

Fluff question regarding Heresy-Era Armors in the modern day. I'm thinking of using Forge World's legion Heavy weapons teams for my next Long Fangs pack, since the price of multi-meltas has risen, making this the cheaper option for my Loganbomb. Anyway, of the MK II, MK III, and MK IV armors, which would be the most practical for a Drop pod team accompanying a Chapter Master?

My personal thoughts;

Mk IV is the most common, and I like the leg armor, but I love the look of Mk III in general (But it's heavy and impractical for a mobile force. On the other hand, these guys are likely to see close combat until the Thunderwolves arrive to support), while Mk II is rare and difficult to repair, but a good general purpose armor (Although I dislike the hooped leggings).

Your thoughts?

bluntpencil

2013-02-10, 06:47 PM

Cheesegear

2013-02-11, 01:23 AM

Anyway, of the MK II, MK III, and MK IV armors, which would be the most practical for a Drop pod team accompanying a Chapter Master?[...] But it's heavy and impractical for a mobile force.

Incongruous logic.

Drop Pods are typically used because whatever is inside them is not mobile. Typically Dreadnoughts and Thunderfire Cannons. Otherwise, Drop Pods are for Alpha Striking particularly important targets - and dropping your Chapter Master directly into enemy lines certainly counts as an Alpha Strike.

In game terms, whatever comes out of a Drop Pod in your opponent's DZ is going to take a pounding, and for surely certainly, a Chapter Master's bodyguard had better have the best protection there is, because that way the Great Wolf lives longer.

I'd go with Mk. III. Not only is it the coolest anyway. But, outside of Terminator Armour, it's supposed to be the best protection a Marine can get, and, if the Great Wolf's bodyguard aren't veteran Veterans who haven't earned the right to wear the oldest and/or most revered armour in the Chapter, I don't know who would.

hamishspence

2013-02-11, 03:05 AM

It provides the best frontal protection- it's not so good from the rear- which can lead to problems if the squad gets attacked from behind.

Cheesegear

2013-02-11, 03:28 AM

It provides the best frontal protection- it's not so good from the rear- which can lead to problems if the squad gets attacked from behind.

I propose three solutions;

1. The Drop Pod is a 'wall'. Charging out of a Drop Pod shouldn't be a problem because anything that would be behind you, has been crushed by said 'Pod. Certainly when the Drop Pod opens, it will be under fire. You'd best have protection in the front.

2. The best solution when attacked from all sides, is to form a ring. You have no 'behind' to worry about. Everyone has the best frontal armour there is. If Space Wolves could have Mantlets it would look baller. But, you wouldn't be able to have Mantlets on Long Fangs anyway.

3. The Great Wolf moves ever forwards. To suggest that something could attack him and his retinue from behind means that he actually left something in his wake.

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-12, 10:16 PM

Do the Eldar use implants/cybernetics? I can't bring to mind any examples of Eldar with artificial limbs at all. At the same time, if they refused to augment their bodies with tech, I feel like that'd be mentioned in the fluff. Certainly, you never see Eldar that are just plain missing an arm. (Abaddon could learn from them)

mistformsquirrl

2013-02-12, 10:39 PM

Could it be that Eldar medical technology let's them regrow lost body parts? I don't think it's mentioned anywhere, but it would seem logical for a population limited race to do everything they could to A) save lives B) keep those lives functional.

I suppose if not that it's possible they just grow fake limbs out of wraithbone, and you'd never know the difference since from the outside it'd look like armor.

hamishspence

2013-02-13, 07:11 AM

I propose three solutions;

1. The Drop Pod is a 'wall'. Charging out of a Drop Pod shouldn't be a problem because anything that would be behind you, has been crushed by said 'Pod. Certainly when the Drop Pod opens, it will be under fire. You'd best have protection in the front.

2. The best solution when attacked from all sides, is to form a ring. You have no 'behind' to worry about. Everyone has the best frontal armour there is. If Space Wolves could have Mantlets it would look baller. But, you wouldn't be able to have Mantlets on Long Fangs anyway.

3. The Great Wolf moves ever forwards. To suggest that something could attack him and his retinue from behind means that he actually left something in his wake.

These do make sense- and I can see Iron Armour as a "tip of the spearhead" preference - I think the Horus Heresy books allude to that.

bluntpencil

2013-02-13, 02:32 PM

Grim Portent

2013-02-13, 06:08 PM

Well, you don't have any Eldar minis with bionics, unlike the humans and Orks. Considering that the Dark Eldar can apparently regrow the dead themselves, I don't see why not.

It seems even more reasonable when you consider that the Dark Eldar revive the dead by rejuvenating the soul itself. If the craftworlders can apply a lesser technique of some sort to the wounded living it would seem plausible.

Voidhawk

2013-02-13, 07:54 PM

Well, you don't have any Eldar minis with bionics, unlike the humans and Orks. Considering that the Dark Eldar can apparently regrow the dead themselves, I don't see why not.

Doesn't Prince Y'riel have a bionic laser-eye?

Tychris1

2013-02-13, 08:12 PM

Doesn't Prince Y'riel have a bionic laser-eye?

Yes, yes he does indeed. (http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/15840/1329800-prince_yriel2_super.jpg)

LeSwordfish

2013-02-14, 05:06 AM

"This is a bionic laser eye. It shoots lasers. Now, it's just a temporary measure, we're all working hard on your real eye..."

"Oh, no, please, dont worry on my account. I'll make do with the lasers."

Wraith

2013-02-14, 06:05 AM

Yes, yes he does indeed. (http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/15840/1329800-prince_yriel2_super.jpg)

No, no he doesn't. :smalltongue:

Codex: Eldar describes the Bale Eye as 'a monocular device'. It's not mentioned as being a replacement for an injury of any kind, he just wears it because it's fun.

Given that he canonically goes around wearing long coats, a monocle and (presumably) a fake pirate accent, he may well be a steampunk cosplayer, however. :smallbiggrin:

Brother Oni

2013-02-14, 07:07 AM

Given hat he canonically goes around wearing long coats, a monocle and (presumably) a fake pirate accent, he may well be a steampunk cosplayer, however. :smallbiggrin:

I think that description covers Commissar Yarrick and Kaptain Bluddflagg too. :smalltongue:

Grim Portent

2013-02-19, 04:20 AM

Wasn't entirely sure in which thread to ask this, but it's mostly to do with fluff so here we are.

What tactics, weapons and units would you associate with the Alpha Legion?

As far as I've gotten with tactics: stealth, sabotage, infiltration, ambush, flexible loadouts, misdirection, multitasking and mobility.

Weapons: The autocannon is the only weapon I associate with the Alpha Legion at current.

Units: Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Terminators, Rhinos, Havocs and Dreadnoughts, strangely I don't think of Bikers or Raptors as fitting with the Alpha Legion, Daemon Engines are right out due to fluff, Tanks seem inappropriate and the cult squads go without saying.

Anyone got anything they'd associate with the Alpha Legion fluff that I've missed or you think I've misjudged? I'd appreciate any points you can make.

Cheesegear

2013-02-19, 04:34 AM

What tactics, weapons and units would you associate with the Alpha Legion?
[...]
Anyone got anything they'd associate with the Alpha Legion fluff that I've missed or you think I've misjudged? I'd appreciate any points you can make.

Imperial Armour 5-7.

Mostly the tactics of the Alpha Legion involve using the enemy's own forces against them. Typically this will be mind-controlled or somehow otherwise manipulated Guard units (usually done by impersonating a Loyalist Marine), but more often than not a single Chaos Marine will infiltrate the underhive and set up a Cult dedicated to himself and/or the Chaos Gods. So, Cultists are always a definite choice.

Mostly the Alpha Legion are the 'standard' set of Chaos Marines. You can use pretty much anything you want with a slight emphasis on Allied Guard and/or Cultists. Marked Warriors and Daemons are rare in the Alpha Legion, but not unheard of.

Grim Portent

2013-02-19, 07:02 AM

Mostly the Alpha Legion are the 'standard' set of Chaos Marines. You can use pretty much anything you want with a slight emphasis on Allied Guard and/or Cultists. Marked Warriors and Daemons are rare in the Alpha Legion, but not unheard of.

I can't believe I forgot to mention cultists in my post, I even have them in the theory army list I drew up to check points values. /facepalm

Can't see much in the guard codex as meshing well, except maybe sniper vets, ratlings and scout sentinels. I suppose I'll poke about a bit and see what doesn't contrast the concept much.

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-19, 08:09 AM

Given their whole doctrine of "Every soldier should pretend to be Alpharius" they probably like to have lots of small squads operating independently, each carrying a variety of weaponry to cover all situations.

Cheesegear

2013-02-19, 08:21 AM

Can't see much in the guard codex as meshing well, except maybe sniper vets, ratlings and scout sentinels. I suppose I'll poke about a bit and see what doesn't contrast the concept much.

What? You mean cheap, expendable meat bags aren't exactly right in Chaos' wheelhouse? Cultists with better firepower and armour? Yeah. What self-respecting Alpha Legionnaire wouldn't steal Leman Russes for themselves?

One person in my group has a Traitor Guard army, where Creed is represented by an Alpha Legionnaire. Dat Tactial Genius.

Grim Portent

2013-02-19, 09:35 AM

What self-respecting Alpha Legionnaire wouldn't steal Leman Russes for themselves?

What self-respecting Alpha Legionnaire would tie his force down with an incredibly slow and unsubtle brick on treads?

Gotta admit, the Creed thing sounds interesting, I might be able to make a creed allied guard list work.

And now, because it must be done,

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!! :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone

2013-02-19, 09:37 AM

What self-respecting Alpha Legionnaire would tie his force down with an incredibly slow and unsubtle brick on treads?

One who knows that's what you expect out of the Alpha Legion, and uses that expectation to deceive you by doing the exact opposite and having slow bricks on treads.

Squark

2013-02-19, 09:47 AM

What self-respecting Alpha Legionnaire would tie his force down with an incredibly slow and unsubtle brick on treads

One who has much of his force elsewhere, and is using the Guardsmen as distractions.

Cheesegear

2013-02-19, 09:48 AM

What self-respecting Alpha Legionnaire would tie his force down with an incredibly slow and unsubtle brick on treads?

Lots of them? The Russes - and by extension, the Guard - are merely distractions.

EDIT: Alpha Legion'd.

Grim Portent

2013-02-19, 10:05 AM

Well I've just flicked through my guard codex, and I have to say I think I can see a way to incorporate the concept of Leman Russ tanks into a mobile strike force. Using Creed I can outflank a tank squadron comprised of three Russ's and support the main thrust of Astartes and Gooey Humans while a counts as Huron lets me infiltrate some chaos forces at the start of the game. Thank you gentlemen I would not have considered the use of Big Tanks. I'll spend a while mucking about with points costs and theory lists and see what I can come up with.

With your help I may see the day the emperor is cast from his throne.

Thanks again.

Cheesegear

2013-02-19, 10:14 AM

Using Creed I can outflank a tank squadron comprised of three Russ's and support the main thrust of Astartes and Gooey Humans while a counts as Huron lets me infiltrate some chaos forces at the start of the game.

Who else but Creed Alpharius-in-a-meat-suit could hide Main Battle Tanks? :smallwink:

Animastryfe

2013-02-20, 01:06 PM

Lore wise, how powerful are Ork ships? I presume that, taking the WH40K universe to its logical conclusion, space battles would be more important or common than ground battles.

Tehnar

2013-02-20, 01:34 PM

In the grim dark of the 41st millenium there is no logic. Also space ships are glorified transports (for the most part), so the army can run about planetside and get murdered.

hamishspence

2013-02-20, 01:53 PM

Space battles happen- there's been two games for them (Space Fleet, and later, Battlefleet Gothic) but they get less coverage.

Cheesegear

2013-02-20, 01:54 PM

Lore wise, how powerful are Ork ships? I presume that, taking the WH40K universe to its logical conclusion, space battles would be more important or common than ground battles.

Hugely powerful. Typically, the older an Ork Battleship is, the more powerful it becomes, as Mekboys are constantly improving their ships - even bolting on other ships to their ship.

Ork Mekboy; Oi youz lot, I herd you like battleships. So Iz put a battleship in your battleship so'z you can battleship while you battleship.

Because of the near-constant patchwork and looting, Ork vehicles are heavily armed and armoured. Capable of withstanding entire broadsides without a scratch.

However, Ork ships are terribly inefficient - energy wise - and as such are extremely slow, and lack the better Shields of their Imperial cousins - which means Lance/Laser based weapons have an easier time than torpedos would. Also their Warp travel is extremely unsafe for anyone not Orks, so try not to be too close when an Ork ship starts up it's Warp Drives unless you want to be caught in it's warp wake.

With that said, another potent weapon in the Orks' arsenal is the Warp'ead. Analogous to a Navigator, but with a whole different power set. One that typically involves spewing Warp Lighting from the entire ship and vaporising half a Fleet - and most of the Orks' Fleet as well. Usually this is an accident that involves combining the raw strength of the Waaagh! 'energy field' mixing with the Warp (this is the same as what happens with an Orks' warp wake, but done intentionally).

Ork ships also typically have ramming prows. For ramming. Because that makes boarding actions easier which is what the Orks want to do.

That being said, the smaller Ork ships are called 'Roks'. It's exactly what it says on the tin. Ork Mekboys fit engines to an asteroid and they fly around on it. Either into other ships or into planets.

hamishspence

2013-02-20, 01:57 PM

Warpheads don't do that in the Battlefleet Gothic game though- which book was that in?

iyaerP

2013-02-22, 09:02 AM

One of the cain books has an ork warlord using a bunch of wierdboyz to cause an imperial convoy to drop out of the warp into the materium so that the orks can do their pillaging, looting, shooting and boarding that they all love to do, butfor the waaugh lightning? No idea.

SaruSama

2013-02-24, 09:17 PM

I'm not entirely certain if this is the right thread for this but here it is.

I made a character for Rogue Trader based off of Alexander the Great. Hes a noble born named Alexandros Magnus who is pretty loyal to the Imperium. However it was pointed out to me later that Magnus the Red exists. I was wondering if it would be possible for people to be named Magnus or if that name would be banned in the Imperium because of its association to the traitor Magnus?

The Glyphstone

2013-02-24, 09:19 PM

It wouldn't be banned. People might look funny at you, though, or be more prone to suspect you of bad stuff because you have a 'cursed name'. Assuming they know who Magnus the Red is, of course - the average Imperial citizen won't have the forbidden lores to know the names of the Traitor Primarchs.

SaruSama

2013-02-24, 11:15 PM

Thanks I was worried id have to retcon his name

Cheesegear

2013-02-25, 01:39 AM

Assuming they know who Magnus the Red is, of course - the average Imperial citizen won't have the forbidden lores to know the names of the Traitor Primarchs.

Alternatively, he might come from a planet that Magnus once liberated during his time in the Great Crusade, and, for the people of that planet, Magnus became a name for a great warrior that people on the planet just used. Nothing about his Traitor-ness ever comes into it for the people on that planet. But other people might think it's weird who don't come from that planet.

If the 'average citizen' is to know any of the Traitor Primarchs, it's Horus, and they would probably know of Abaddon too. They would be by-words for the Devil and never to be spoken aloud.

SaruSama

2013-02-25, 01:43 AM

Really the main reason I was worried about it is because its my family name. Since I'm a noble and my backstory is that my family has a very large transport company in addition to controlling at the least two fringe world planets. I was just worried if having a large family named Magnus would be an issue.

LansXero

2013-02-26, 03:37 PM

Just done reading Mechanicum... daaamn, good book, but a tad depressing. Is anything ever mentioned again about the stuff in the Addenda?

shadow_archmagi

2013-02-28, 08:01 PM

Some questions:

1. How common are Webway gates? Is there one on every world? Every system?

2. If a system lacks a Webway gate, do the Eldar just never go there ever?

3. How hard is it to find a Webway gate? How are they hidden?

4. Do the Eldar know how to expand the Webway, or are lost Webway gates just gone forever? Does that mean that finding and destroying a webway gate essentially just ends the Eldar threat locally?

5. What's the Imperium's reaction to finding a Gate? I know the Emperor was trying to get access to it, but is that a project that's ongoing, or would they just blow it up to stem the tide of elves?

Cheesegear

2013-02-28, 09:57 PM

1. How common are Webway gates? Is there one on every world? Every system?

2. If a system lacks a Webway gate, do the Eldar just never go there ever?

3. How hard is it to find a Webway gate? How are they hidden?

4. Do the Eldar know how to expand the Webway, or are lost Webway gates just gone forever? Does that mean that finding and destroying a webway gate essentially just ends the Eldar threat locally?

5. What's the Imperium's reaction to finding a Gate? I know the Emperor was trying to get access to it, but is that a project that's ongoing, or would they just blow it up to stem the tide of elves?

1. No. No. Webway Gates are found wherever Eldar think is important for whatever reason. So, they can be anywhere, but not everywhere.

2. If a system lacks a Webway Gate, the Eldar don't need to go there (see 1), or they just haven't got there yet.

3. As hard as plot demands it. They can be underground in a cave, they can be buried and unusuable, they can be underwater, etc. Essentially they're Stargates. They're hidden - or not - and protected however the Eldar think is best. Those Wraithguard things that look like stone? Nope, you touched the Gate and now they're activating. Fun times.

4. Yes. Bonesingers - with the help of a Psyker or even a Harlequin - shape up a Webway Portal out of Wraithbone, and use someone who knows what they're doing to attune it to the Webway.
Like every Eldar thing ever; Bonesingers are rare. And people who know what they're doing are rare.
Destroying a portal ends the threat so long as the Harlequins don't come looking for the problem. Furthermore, some very powerful and/or very old Eldar (typically the Dark variety) have arcane pieces of tech that can open portals on the spot. Very rare. Very valuable. Harlequins would probably kill any non-Eldar that had one on the spot...And probably a lot of Eldar too.

5. Depends if they know what it is. Several Imperial Scholars and Inquisitors know that the Webway leads directly to the Black Library and also are a potential ingress into the Blackstone Fortresses. So, Webway Gates are extremely valuable assets. Unfortunately, only one man (possibly two) in the entire Imperium knows how to operate them properly. Everyone else kind of just fiddles with the Gate until Harlequins show up and kill everyone.
...So, yeah. Destroying them works. But Ordo Xenos operatives probably wouldn't.

Squark

2013-03-01, 12:11 AM

Well, some of the most puritan of the ordo xenos might, but the black library is such a tempting find that I don't think many of them could pass it up.

Speaking of the Blackstone Fortresses, How many of the Black Crusades actually accomplished their goal? I know #9 went off without a hitch, while #12 was mostly succesful (Captured 2 Blackstone Fortresses, and blew the other 4 up), and then #13 is... Reply Hazy, Ask Again Later... What about the other Black Crusades?

DaedalusMkV

2013-03-01, 04:21 AM

Speaking of the Blackstone Fortresses, How many of the Black Crusades actually accomplished their goal? I know #9 went off without a hitch, while #12 was mostly succesful (Captured 2 Blackstone Fortresses, and blew the other 4 up), and then #13 is... Reply Hazy, Ask Again Later... What about the other Black Crusades?

1 was an abject failure (Goal: do what big daddy Horus failed to do. Result: Didn't make it past Cadia). Number 2 ended the same way. Number 3 wasn't even Abbaddon's gig, it was run by one of the highest-ranking Daemon Princes named Tallomin. The Imperium, led by the Space Wolves, crushed it and eliminated Tallomin. Number 4 was specifically to take some sort of impregnable fortress in the Cadia sector, and was a near thing but Abbaddon pulled it off. Number 5 was Doombreed's show (remember him? Got a name in the old CSM book?), and was basically successful (goal: Kill Space Marines. Result: Two entire Chapters annihilated).

6th is, so far as I know, not discussed anywhere. 7th is.. Wierd. Abbaddon was just kind of raging around killing things around Cadia, and Abbaddon and pals killed a bunch of people but then got driven away by the SPACE SHARKS. I'm not entirely sure what, if any, objective he actually had. 8th I've got nothing. 9th was as you said. 10th was Perturabo launching a crusade against the Iron Hands, and obviously was not successful. 11th I've got nothing again. 12th and 13th you know.

So, of 13 Black Crusades we don't have any information on three of them (unless someone else has read something I haven't). Abbaddon was not involved in an additional three, of which only one was successful, and that depends on how you define Doombreed's goal. Of the remaining 7, only the first two were actually failures. That leaves Abbaddon 4-2-1, with the tie going to the wierd one with SPACE SHARKS where nobody really knows what Abbaddon was trying to accomplish.

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-01, 08:52 AM

2. If a system lacks a Webway Gate, the Eldar don't need to go there (see 1), or they just haven't got there yet.

How would they get there in the first place, if they travel exclusively by webway?

Cheesegear

2013-03-01, 08:59 AM

How would they get there in the first place, if they travel exclusively by webway?

They...Don't...

They have big spaceships on par with Imperial ships. In fact they even have some spacecraft the size of small planets. Craftworlds, in fact. :smallwink:

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-01, 09:06 AM

They...Don't...

They have big spaceships on par with Imperial ships. In fact they even have some spacecraft the size of small planets. Craftworlds, in fact. :smallwink:

So do they have a non-warp method of FTL, or do they just... spend a few thousand years in transit?

hamishspence

2013-03-01, 09:13 AM

I thought craftworlds travelled (slowly) along the thickest webway strands, dropping out now and then? After all, at least one craftworld is permanently in the webway- the Black Library.

Voidhawk

2013-03-01, 10:12 AM

Craftworlds mostly travel slower than light, on nearly unchangeable trajectories. This is why Seers are so important, as they must deal with problems along their course before the Craftworld gets there. Some of the larger webway conduits are big enough for a craftworld to pass down however, but in the shattered (and often demon-haunted) remnants of the modern webway they are few and far between.

All the other Eldar ships are warp capable however, and in most cases faster and more reliably than their Imperial counterparts. Whatever they use for a Gellar field (likely some kind of wraithbone soul-field) pretty much never fails, they don't need the astronomicon (perhaps using craftworld beacons instead?), and their steersmen are more competent than navigators.

hamishspence

2013-03-01, 10:26 AM

As I recall, they don't have Gellar fields- or anything like them- they have to use the webway.

But I could be wrong- what does it say in Path of the Outcast?

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-01, 01:06 PM

As I recall, they don't have Gellar fields- or anything like them- they have to use the webway.

But I could be wrong- what does it say in Path of the Outcast?

In my googling, I found someone who claimed that the 2nd edition Codex says the Eldar *do* have warp drives and gellar fields, but they lack Navigators and Daemons are much more drawn to them, so the trips are much slower and more dangerous even than humans.

hamishspence

2013-03-01, 01:29 PM

In my googling, I found someone who claimed that the 2nd edition Codex says the Eldar *do* have warp drives and gellar fields, but they lack Navigators and Daemons are much more drawn to them, so the trips are much slower and more dangerous even than humans.
If so, it would surprise me.

Codex Imperialis (a 40K 2nd ed rulebook) p63
Eldar do not, indeed cannot, use Warp travel in the same way as the humans of the Imperium. For some dark reason they do not speak of, the warp is a hostile environment to them. The Eldar Craftworlds are interconnected by a complex web of warp space tunnels though which the Eldar can move from one Craftworld to another. The web interconnects some planets too, where the Eldar Craftworlds have established new colonies. The Eldar have also discovered and made contact with far-flung colonies which survived the Fall. These pre-Fall survivors are called Exodites.

This network of warp tunnels allows the Eldar to travel easily between a limited number of places, but makes it impossible for them to travel outside their web.
As I recall, much of the 2nd ed Eldar Codex fluff was repeated from that.

And it appears to have not changed, up to the present:

Warhammer 40K 6E rulebook p205
Eldar do not, indeed cannot, use Warp travel in the same way as the Imperium. Being more psychically attuned than humans, the Warp is altogether anathema to them. Instead, the Eldar travel through the webway, a labyrinth that exists between the Warp and the material dimension, partially in both and yet- in a way- in neither.

Keris

2013-03-01, 03:48 PM

-stuff about Black Crusades-To expand slightly on what you've said:

1: While Abaddon failed his primary objective, he learned a lot from the experience and he managed to get hold of Drach'nyen. He also got quite a way past Cadia, largely because it wasn't fortified until after the crusade ended. His forces also got past Cadia in the second crusade, but since Cadia itself held out for five years they weren't able to do much beyond rampage around a bit.
6: The '6th' Black Crusade would probably be one of the large number of crusades launched by various Chaos factions during the Age of Strife. They helped out with the general despondency of the time, but apparently didn't accomplish anything significant.
7: According to Liber Chaotica, the crusade ended when Abbadon headed back into the Eye to prepare once 'his hand [became] Night and his standard [was] secure'. Quite what that means I'm not sure, but it sounds like he got what he wanted.

In my googling, I found someone who claimed that the 2nd edition Codex says the Eldar *do* have warp drives and gellar fields, but they lack Navigators and Daemons are much more drawn to them, so the trips are much slower and more dangerous even than humans.If so, it would surprise me.It's in there, sort of.

When the Eldar go to war they travel through the tunnels of the Webway. Such journeys are relatively fast, enabling spacefleets to move easily between the network's major gateways. This enables the Eldar to move swiftly to places directly connected by the Webway, but makes it extremely difficult for them to reach worlds which have no gate into the network. Eldar spacecraft can travel through the warp using their warp drives, although this is a slow and dangerous process for them. Unlike humans, the Eldar have no Navigators who can steer through warp space. Furthermore, the daemons of the warp are attracted far more strongly to vibrant Eldar spirits than to the dull, shadowy minds of men. As a result of these factors the Eldar travel infrequently to places that lie more than a few light years from their Webway exits.I couldn't spot anything about Gellar Fields or equivalents, but then I didn't examine the book exhaustively. It also mentions that Craftworlds 'move at only sub-light speeds' and that the Eldar don't really consider their physical location important, since they're reached via Webway portals that the Craftworld carries.

Hazzardevil

2013-03-02, 03:40 AM

Cheesegear

2013-03-02, 03:50 AM

DaedalusMkV

2013-03-02, 04:55 AM

Wonderings about the Black Crusades:
1. How does Abbaddon tell Chaos to shut up and do as he says?
2. What does he do between Crusades?
3. How does chaos manage to keep pulling together massive forces if Black Crusades turn into the blood bath implied in some of the source material I read?

1: By being the biggest, meanest dude out there. And having the favour of all four Chaos Gods. And being entirely willing to cut people in half with his Daemon Sword or torture their souls for eternity if they say no.
2: Despoil. Muster forces within the Eye of Terror. Make minor raids here and there. Pretty much the same thing every Chaos Lord does, only on a larger scale.
3: Chaos is an equal-opportunities employer, and it is always recruiting. Cultists come from, well, everywhere, and the Chaos Legions recruit new Space Marines from both Renegade Space Marines (IE, fresh traitors) and Chaos-worshippers on the worlds they control, using similar methods to a Loyalist Chapter. Plus, a fair few Chaos Champions just don't have any sort of aptitude for staying dead when they get killed and Daemons are all immortal. Still, Chaos recovering from their losses is why there's only a Black Crusade every 700 years or so.

SaruSama

2013-03-02, 01:16 PM

So, I'm making a character in RT whos really into music. Is the subject of music ever really touched on in the fluff? Is there any Ancient Terran (essentially music I'd actually know) widely known or even known by enthusiasts?

bluntpencil

2013-03-02, 06:06 PM

GolemsVoice

2013-03-02, 06:14 PM

Well, I don't know if much of the ancient stuff survived, but I'd say in general, much of what the Imperium produces are either hymns or other works that glorify the Emperor in some way, or entertainment music, like Pound from Dan Abnett's novels. Pound is essentially bass, with a side order of MORE BASS. You don't so much hear it as FEEL it.

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-02, 09:10 PM

BRC

2013-03-02, 09:39 PM

Council Of War Meeting Onboard the Flagship Fury Of The Faithful

-Those Present-

Fleet Admiral Marcus Dartanus- Fleet Commander
Lord General Lucas Gaius Constantius- Ground Forces Commander
Commissar Trenton Gaulviere
Inquisitor [Redacted]- Ordo Hereticus
Magos Killden- Adeptus Mechanicus
Colonel Eisen Jakobs- Cadian 289th- Voxpresence from Planetary Surface
Colonel Lucendia Carata- Cadian 320th Armored- Voxpresence from Planetary Surface
Colonel Danton Skulken- Wubben 15th Combat Engineers
-Begin Transcript-
Dartanus- My fighter squadrons report airspace is clear and the Ships are in position.
Jakobs- We've cleared the zone you're requesting, but we're taking a pounding down here.
Carata- I've fully committed my tanks, we're holding them back, but most of my Lemans are limping Bad. If you want my armor for your campaign, we're going to need full repairs.
Magos Killden- Order your pilots to give thanks to their machine spirits. Facilities will be provided for their repair.
Inquisitor- Need I remind you that you will have at most a day before the bulk of the Heretic forces arrive at your dropsite.
Constantinus- I am aware inquisitor. The Dropzone will be secure, IF the Magos and Colonel Skulken can deliver what they promise.
Colonel Skulken- You bet we can. At your order the dropships will enter atmosphere and we'll have a fully functional F.O.B with all the trimmings. Barracks, Defenses, hospital, even fully sanctified repair bays and a chapel.
Dartanus- All from Orbit? I understand that the Astartes drop pods are capable of-
Magos Killden- This is a far greater demonstration of the Omnissiah's blessings than a drop pod.
Carata- If you've got some trick up your sleeve, do it now please!
Constantinus- Give the order.
Colonel Skulken- Attention, all ships. We've prepared for this.
DROP
THE
BASE.

Edit: Dubstrike

Wubhammer 40k (Decibels)

Squark

2013-03-03, 12:12 AM

I feel like there's a joke I'm supposed to be getting.

Renegade Paladin

2013-03-03, 02:08 AM

I feel like there's a joke I'm supposed to be getting.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/VaderMetal.png

:smalltongue:

Brother Oni

2013-03-03, 06:12 AM

I feel like there's a joke I'm supposed to be getting.

It is a pune or play on words of the term 'base' (referring in this case to a pre-fabricated site of operations) and the word 'bass' (referring to the musical note), of which 'dropping the bass' is a colloquial term used to describe a particular characteristic musical motif of the 'dubstep' music genre.

Have I killed the joke enough yet, or do I still need to impale it a few more times? :smalltongue:

SaruSama

2013-03-03, 06:19 AM

Have I killed the joke enough yet, or do I still need to impale it a few more times? :smalltongue:

One or two more stabs should finish it off for good.

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-03, 10:11 AM

What do Eldar do if their craftworld is destroyed? Do they try to join other craftworlds, adopt an Exodite lifestyle, or go on some kind of death crusade?

Cheesegear

2013-03-03, 10:47 AM

What do Eldar do if their craftworld is destroyed? Do they try to join other craftworlds, adopt an Exodite lifestyle, or go on some kind of death crusade?

I believe they go on an altered version of the Path of the Outcast becoming Corsairs or Rangers/Pathfinders. So, Eldar Pirates.

They can't join another Craftworld because they're DOOMED!!! and they're all emo about it. They can't go on a Death Crusade because that would almost be having emotions, and Eldar aren't allowed to do that for extended periods of time.

Some may even be picked up by the Harlequins to take The Ritual...I don't know what happens to Eldar who fail 'The Ritual'.

Brother Oni

2013-03-03, 12:35 PM

One or two more stabs should finish it off for good.

Ok:

Wubhammer 40K (Decibels)

'Wub' is an onomatopoeic description of the low oscillating bass sound common to dubstep tracks with '40K' serving as a double entendre (with the aid of the 'Decibels'), for the name of the setting and a parody of the typically extremely loud volume that dubstep is usually played at.

That should do it, I think...

comicshorse

2013-03-03, 04:07 PM

So I was reading 'Soul Hunter' and its clear on the sad state the Night Lords are in and the main character points out, to Abaddon's face no less, that the Black Legion are nearly as screwed. The Emperor's Children are worse off than the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion might not even be working for Chaos. So my question is : are the Traitor Legions an actual threat to the Imperium ?
I know they can still loot and raid and cause carnage but do they actually have an chance of bringing the Imperium down ?

Cheesegear

2013-03-03, 04:12 PM

I know they can still loot and raid and cause carnage but do they actually have an chance of bringing the Imperium down ?

No. The Imperium is doing a fine job of doing that themselves. Bringing the Imperium down starts with killing off the Emperor for realsies. And the only threat that has even made it close to Terra at all were the Necrons - and they were only having a looksee.

hamishspence

2013-03-03, 04:16 PM

In the old 3rd Codex Assassins, it mentions that there was fighting, in the Imperial Palace, between the factions.

Didn't the Age of Apostasy have Terra come under siege from Vandire's enemies as well?

I think there's other sources that state that the Horus Heresy was not the only time Terra has come under attack.

GolemsVoice

2013-03-03, 05:31 PM

I think Cheesegear means external threats. But yes, at least during the Age of Apostasy (and in the old fluff) a strike team infiltrated the Imperial Palace.

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-03, 08:22 PM

Okay, everybody in my games, avert your eyes, this is research for Rogue Trader.

(Cross posting with the RPG thread incase there's anyone who only checks one)

So, I recently inherited a Rogue Trader campaign. The primary antagonists are Eldar and Chaos, with the Rak'Gol as a wild card. I'd like to tie all three together, and I was rolling dice to randomly generate star systems when I got one with a Stellar Anomaly, which can be anything from a tiny black hole to a relic from the dark age of technology.

I really like the idea of an ancient, powerful space station, A La the Star Forge from KOTOR. I'm just not sure what the actual capabilities should be. Is it a high quality cloning facility (I'm sure Chaos would love to be able to mass produce CSMs. Or Nurglings could clone a particular plague carrier) or maybe it sucks power away from the sun to fire giant lasers? I'm not actually sure what would make for both an interesting adventure and be fluff legit for dark age.

What's something that everyone involved would be interested in? (Admittedly, Chaos and Rogue Traders will take anything that isn't nailed down, and Eldar could just be interested in blowing it up because their farseer said it'd be a problem)

LeSwordfish

2013-03-04, 02:35 AM

I'm not sure what to suggest, but you KNOW they're gonna call it the "Death Star" if it just shoots lasers. Cloning faculty is one idea i like.

Cheesegear

2013-03-04, 02:50 AM

I think Cheesegear means external threats. But yes, at least during the Age of Apostasy (and in the old fluff) a strike team infiltrated the Imperial Palace.

Was it Jaq Draco and friends? :smallwink:

The primary antagonists are Eldar and Chaos, with the Rak'Gol as a wild card.
[...]
I really like the idea of an ancient, powerful space station, A La the Star Forge from KOTOR. I'm just not sure what the actual capabilities should be. Is it a high quality cloning facility (I'm sure Chaos would love to be able to mass produce CSMs. Or Nurglings could clone a particular plague carrier) or maybe it sucks power away from the sun to fire giant lasers? I'm not actually sure what would make for both an interesting adventure and be fluff legit for dark age.

Well, there's the Blackstone Fortresses. Ancient relics from the time of the War In Heaven when the Old Ones fought the C'Tan. As far as canon goes, there's only one left by 999.M41. But, Rogue Trader is meant to be set before then...So long as at the end, the Death Star Talisman of Vaul gets destroyed, you're sticking to canon.

But yeah. Any relic from the War In Heaven, the Eldar want their hands on. Chaos wants it too, either because there's a good chance that it's a powerful weapon, or will potentially grant some Eldar secret to eternal life (which can potentially be perverted somehow by Nurglites).

You're right on the money for sun-sucking power. As that is pretty much the M.O. for the C'Tan. Which means, again, another potential relic from the WiH.

Better yet. I'd go with some sort of Tyranid Bioship that's been separated from the Hive Mind due to link damage or something and now floats aimlessly in space eating Space Whales. Similar to Moya from FarScape. All's it needs is a psychic link to a Pilot to get it motivated again.
Otherwise, any ship from BSG or SG;SG-1 is fair inspiration.

iyaerP

2013-03-04, 10:47 AM

Another possible contender would be an ancient and enormous space hulk. We all know what kind of nasties and horrible things you can have lurk around every corner, all set up to munch your house troops by the hundred.

Eldar might care if there is some ancient and enormous eldar ship making up part of the hulk, and they need to save the soul-stones. Chaos care because they want to feed the souls to Slaanesh.

The incentive/power reward for the players comes from the obvious and mighty archaeo-tech that is always associated with such hulks due to their age. The presence of at least one discernable DAOT ship as part of the twisted mess that makes up the hulk should serve as bait quite nicely.

Tome

2013-03-04, 11:05 AM

Admittedly, Chaos and Rogue Traders will take anything that isn't nailed down

Objection!

A good rogue trader would never let something so petty as being nailed down and/or on fire stop him from looting something, they carry crowbars and fire extinguishers for just this very reason. No, the only reason a Rogue Trader wouldn't loot something is if the resale value is less than the fuel cost to haul it into orbit.

On a more serious note, I like the space hulk and blackstone fortress ideas. The blackstone fortress is a recognisable object to anyone moderately versed in 40K lore, and should get an immediate reaction from your players (assuming they've heard of them before). On the flip side, it also makes things very high stakes.

A Space Hulk with a damaged Eldar Craftworld as part of it would also be recognisable and understandable to your players, without being quite as over the top. It also offers more potential options for potentially cutting deals with and double-crossing the other factions. You also have room to squeeze all sorts of interesting things into the rest of the space hulk, should you wish. Want to throw out some Orks or Genestealers? Go for it. Fitting that cloning laboratory idea in there is also a possibility.

bluntpencil

2013-03-04, 12:27 PM

Objection!

A good rogue trader would never let something so petty as being nailed down and/or on fire stop him from looting something, they carry crowbars and fire extinguishers for just this very reason. No, the only reason a Rogue Trader wouldn't loot something is if the resale value is less than the fuel cost to haul it into orbit.

This is why DMs get frustrated with me in DnD games.

"Right, we've cleared out the dungeon. According to feudal law in this region, as conquerors of a foreign threat, we now own this piece of prime real estate.

Considering the current economy, the dungeon and its surrounding environs, would sell for a good price to a neighbouring merchant or noble."

iyaerP

2013-03-04, 12:50 PM

Ahh, but feudal society is also extremely supersticious, paranoid, and untrusting. Especially if there are real life deamons, monsters and witchcraft for them to be paranoid and untrusting about.

Selling the remains of a dungeon crawl to the local establishment? Nobody wants to buy it because everyone knows that it's cursed/tainted by the forces of vile darkness/a deathtrap. These aren't just superstision in DnD, they are quite probably the literal truth. There is a reason that nothing has been plundered from this place before the PCs arrived, and that reason is because anyone and everyone who came before they did had a tendancy to die horribly. Your average medival knight doesn't much care for the thought of a pit of darkness and evil infesting his lands, but the fact that it remained intact meant that he wasn't strong/skilled enough to go clean it out. Even though it has now been cleaned out, nobody is going to want to live there. Or have aforementioined noble declare that the PCs are trying to usurp his familial holdings and bring them before the king.

Or maybe you do manage to let them find one lone buyer from far enough away that he either doesn't know all the local horror stories about this place, or dismisses them as local nonsense. He buys it up, moves in, sets up shop and disappears. Nobody hears from him ever again, and all the locals nod heads at each other and all agree that that is why they didn't have anything to do with such a cursed ruin in the first place. Then Mr Merchant rises as a ghost to haunt the PCs for indirectly causing his death. Or maybe the PCs just get a reputation for being people you absolutely DO NOT buy property from.

Regardless, there are a number of ways to handle that kind of thing, and unelss your PCs are high enough level that they actually are feudal lords rather than just he usual gang of murder-hobos that PCs tend to be at low-mid levels, there is no reason to let them get away with grand theft dungeon. Unless said dungeon contains the deed to the land. I had fun doing that once. Gave my players the deed to a dungeon crawl under the authority of a kingdom that no longer existed with plans for them to pursue it and get tied up in politics, backstabbing and scheming, but unfortunately, once they realized that they couldn't press their claim, they just wandered off in search of the next loot piniata.

LeSwordfish

2013-03-04, 01:41 PM

Two of my PCs took over a fuel refinery, charged half the price of the old owners to prevent reprisals, and then said "We wait until we have enough money to buy a battleship."

Animastryfe

2013-03-04, 02:30 PM

Ahh, but feudal society is also extremely supersticious, paranoid, and untrusting. Especially if there are real life deamons, monsters and witchcraft for them to be paranoid and untrusting about.

No, feudalism does not imply that the population is superstitious, paranoid and untrusting. Feudalism is a set of economic, military and legal customs; saying that feudalism necessarily implies superstition is similar to saying that capitalism necessarily implies greedy industrialists owning the vast majority of the society's wealth, or that capitalism implies a liberal society with a democratic government, tolerance of different cultures, and a fair and transparent legal system.

iyaerP

2013-03-04, 02:51 PM

Except the difference is that a feudal society by the nature of its structure means that the lower classes, the serfs and the peasents primarily, will be completely uneducated and at the tender mercies of their liege lords. Ignorance begets superstition, and living under authoritarian rule begets mistrust and paranoia. Even amoung the nobility and clergy, education and literacy are the exception rather than the rule.

I realize that anyone of sufficient means to be buying the ruins of an old castle that make up a dungeon crawl(or whatever forms your dungeon) wouldn't be the proverbial dirt-farming peasent, but niether would they be completely immune to the social attitudes regarding such a haunted place either.

While it is possible that a particular setting might be NobleBright enough that every peasent is an educated and literate, and that the ugly institutions of slavery and serfdom don't exist, that tends not to be the case with most campaigns.

As for your players taking over a refinery Swordfish? Let them deal with all the associated problems of running it. Have labour shortages and worker riots. Let an AdMech contingent show up claiming that it is their holy duty to take over production in the name of th machine god and that the rogue trader and his associates are edging in on their turf. Have marauding orks decide to sieze the refinery for their own use.

Make your players EARN that battleship. But don't make it easy for them. Have the profit margin on the refinery be low enough that they will never get a Battleship in their lifetime. Maybe they have to settle for a cruiser or a frigate even. Whatever you do, don't just let them sit on their butts and declare effortless and instant victory with a game-breakingly good payout. They will get bored, and you will have to constantly up the stakes to make them relevant to the fact that your players would now have access to sector battlefleet levels of firepower. Escalation should be reserved for after they have fought tooth and nail, bolter and chainsword for every inch of that Battlehsip. So when they then go smash some alien fleet, they will have bloody well deserved it.

Edit: They are selling their product at half its market value? Well then old boy, they quite simply are operating the refinery at a loss. At NEGATIVE profit. Any rogue trader worth his salt knows that that isn't sustainable. The customers will get used to the lower prices and the buisness won't be able to recoup the losses, especially when said customers demand that the prices stay low. Have the old owners or their kin have some relation to another Noble House of the Imperium, and have them return with a vengence to get their holdings back. Start an inter-House war between their Noble House and your players' rogue trader House. Have them attack the PCs' holdings in other sectors and undercut their buisness or sabatoge the production. Go read Dune if you need ideas. Make Vladimir Harkonnen proud of you. Above all else, do not let them get away with this unscathed.

The Glyphstone

2013-03-04, 03:06 PM

Superstition is a double-edge sword, though. Those same paranoid, fearful, ignorant peasants you paint as being scared of the 'haunted' ruins can be fairly easily manipulated by playing on their superstitions. Carry out the mangled corpses of monsters and put them on public display; literally clean the dungeon out and give tours; offer it at a discount to the militia/army as a conveniently fortified base. Have high-ranking priests of prominent religions visit to publicly consecrate and bless the newly purified complex.

Yes, you can force their plans to fail - giving an expired deed to a dungeon...of course they'll give up on the idea if you've made it explicitly clear the 'deed' is worthless. But a party's return in something - in both loot/rewards and story - should be proportionate to the effort they put in to it. If they do the work of gentrifying that dungeon, clearing and cleaning it, proving to the locals and potential buyers it has value, then it's just being a mean DM to arbitrarily have the buyers die or the place collapse to prove some philosophical point about quasi-medieval society. If they want that refinery to buy them a battleship, they need to do work for it - defend it from Orks, set up trade routes and supply lines, investigate mysterious deaths among workers - and if they'd rather sit on their butts, bring on the catastrophic equipment failures.

iyaerP

2013-03-04, 03:25 PM

But a party's return in something - in both loot/rewards and story - should be proportionate to the effort they put in to it. If they do the work of gentrifying that dungeon, clearing and cleaning it, proving to the locals and potential buyers it has value, then it's just being a mean DM to arbitrarily have the buyers die or the place collapse to prove some philosophical point about quasi-medieval society. If they want that refinery to buy them a battleship, they need to do work for it - defend it from Orks, set up trade routes and supply lines, investigate mysterious deaths among workers - and if they'd rather sit on their butts, bring on the catastrophic equipment failures.

This is pretty much the whole point I was trying to make in both of my preceeding posts. Your players are much more likely going to enjoy and remember well the hard fought battle that required much political scheeming and wheedling to prepare for, yet they still only just managed to pull off and emerge victorious than the time that they happened to stumble upon a bunch of free loot for minimal effort on their part.

Brother Oni

2013-03-04, 03:31 PM

Edit: They are selling their product at half its market value? Well then old boy, they quite simply are operating the refinery at a loss. At NEGATIVE profit. Any rogue trader worth his salt knows that that isn't sustainable. The customers will get used to the lower prices and the buisness won't be able to recoup the losses, especially when said customers demand that the prices stay low. Have the old owners or their kin have some relation to another Noble House of the Imperium, and have them return with a vengence to get their holdings back. Start an inter-House war between their Noble House and your players' rogue trader House. Have them attack the PCs' holdings in other sectors and undercut their buisness or sabatoge the production. Go read Dune if you need ideas. Make Vladimir Harkonnen proud of you. Above all else, do not let them get away with this unscathed.

Alternately a rival House operating hidden through intermediaries arranges a contract to buy a massive amount of material from the PCs that is just about possible at maximum production rate, then arranges for a few small delays so that the PCs just miss the quota, at which point the players get hit with the massive late delivery fines hidden in the small print.

Or the rival House just buys all their stock and resells at normal market price until the PCs run out of money to keep the refinery going.

This is all assuming that cost price is greater than the price the players are selling at, of course.

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-08, 12:21 PM

Where can I find fluff about Navigators, and more specifically, Navigator Houses? There seems to be precious little outside an old Inquisitor article and the Rogue Trader core rulebook. Since one of my players is being dragged into a tradewar, it seems like something worth researching.

Alternatively, since they seem to be based on renaissance mercantile houses, where might I find books from which to draw inspiration?

Tome

2013-03-08, 12:43 PM

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-08, 02:10 PM

Try the Navis Primer. It's one of the RT books and has a fair amount of extra detail on the Navigators if I recall.

Unfortunately, the Navis Primer contains relatively little fluff on the Nobilite. Most of the book is given over to new powers, new careers, more complicated rules for warp travel, and so on.

iyaerP

2013-03-08, 02:19 PM

One of the soul drinker books mentions them briefly as holding a good amount of political clout and power, enough so that taking one hostage is enough to prevent attack on the position. Until the inquisition shows up and orders the hostage shot that is.

Beyond that, I have nothing. They are one of the less well established bits of imperial fluff.

Squark

2013-03-08, 04:47 PM

Wolfblade and Sons of Fenris both deal with Ragnar Blackmane serving as part of the bodyguard for House Belisarius (One of the houses based on Terra. Basically, Leman Russ brokered a pact with House Belisarius such that while working with the Space Wolves, the Navigators of House Belisarius treat the Great Wolf's word as if it was from the head of their house, and in exchange, 24 space wolves serve as the bodyguard to the head of House Belisarius, and have similar expectations with regards to loyalty). They might have some information for you.

shadow_archmagi

2013-03-08, 06:08 PM