Help with a New Character?

[Gazzien]

I'm going to start a new 3.5 game soon, with low/ no houseruling (we may get feats at every odd level, instead of as normal). However, I'd like to try out a sneaky thief/Face character, and I'm wondering: is it possible to become a Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff-focused character, and yet keep Hide, Pick Pocket, and Move Silently maximized and optimized as well?

I'm trying to make a character that can evade combat as much as possible, but help by teamwork and trickery - perhaps using the Vow of Nonviolence to reinforce this part - and then be able to push through the noncombat encounters we run into.

Specifically, I've been looking at the contested versions of Hide and Move Silently, then the Epic uses of Diplomacy, Bluff, and Pick Pocket, and been wanting to use them to essentially walk through a battle unseen, taking weapons, spell component pouches, and the like, while remaining playable at low levels (ideally starting at level 3-5).

Could someone help me with this? I've been thinking that a Whisper Gnome would be the right place to start, but I don't have any idea of how I would progress through classes. I know that taking Darkstalker would be needed (to hide of course), if this would be even possible.

[gallagher]

Well, without HIPS, you are going to have trouble hiding on a consistent basis in combat unless you can find ways to carry around your concealment, but other than that you just need to be a rogue with a high INT so you can max out your ranks in more skills. Also, if someone is holding a weapon, that is a disarm check, slight of hand needs to be an unattended item.

I also suggest investing in several potions of invisibility.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Beguiler base class in PH2 would be perfect for this. You can dump Str, Wis, and to a lesser extent Cha, with only moderately high Dex and Con, as Int is your only really important stat. Their spell list is a toolbox that gives them something for nearly any situation. They get all the class skills of both a Rogue and a Wizard, and with six base skill points/level and Int-SAD you should have just as many skills at max rank as a typical Rogue. Between all the Enchantments and Illusions you don't even need to invest anything but skill ranks in any of the skills you're looking to use.

[Gazzien]

The Beguiler base class in PH2 would be perfect for this. You can dump Str, Wis, and to a lesser extent Cha, with only moderately high Dex and Con, as Int is your only really important stat. Their spell list is a toolbox that gives them something for nearly any situation. They get all the class skills of both a Rogue and a Wizard, and with six base skill points/level and Int-SAD you should have just as many skills at max rank as a typical Rogue. Between all the Enchantments and Illusions you don't even need to invest anything but skill ranks in any of the skills you're looking to use.

Ah, that's perfect. Thank you.

Other things I found that might be useful, but I'm not sure:
-One level into Shadowdancer, for Hide in Plain Sight
-One level into Shadowcaster, for the web-enhancement Mystery that gives you +5 Enhancement to Slight-of-Hand and ability to use it at range via one of their Fundamentals

[Zanthy1]

Ah, that's perfect. Thank you.

Other things I found that might be useful, but I'm not sure:
-One level into Shadowdancer, for Hide in Plain Sight
-One level into Shadowcaster, for the web-enhancement Mystery that gives you +5 Enhancement to Slight-of-Hand and ability to use it at range via one of their Fundamentals

Not sure of the actual reqs for those two dips, but I would go base Beguiler, and if you can, take one level in both of those. I would almost go so far as to suggest a level in bard, just so you have something to do during a combat encounter, but that would negate the need for hiding during the fight lol

[Gazzien]

Not sure of the actual reqs for those two dips, but I would go base Beguiler, and if you can, take one level in both of those. I would almost go so far as to suggest a level in bard, just so you have something to do during a combat encounter, but that would negate the need for hiding during the fight lol

Shadowcaster is a (normally subpar) base class from Tome of Magic,
Shadowdancer is a (normally subpar) prestige from Player's Handbook.

As long as it doesn't compromise Move Silently, that would actually be interesting... maybe a level of something else, though, like Combat Trapsmith (which I still need to look at, so shot-in-the-dark here).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 is the standard build, and for good reason. You don't want to lose any spellcasting, and that one level dip is only to put your Advanced Learning at even-numbered spellcasting levels.

You can get Hide in Plain Sight via a greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic. Be sure to pick up the feats Darkstalker and Mindsight from Lords of Madness.

+5 Slight of Hand is a 2,500 gp item, which is definitely not worth losing a level of spellcasting. If you want skill bonuses, take Item Familiar at 3rd level and invest every skill point from 4th level and up for the greatest return. Make it a ring and wear a glove or gauntlet over it so opponents can never target it directly or slight of hand it.

Item familiars are intelligent items, which are regarded as constructs, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining, and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. Make it start as a Ring of Protection +1 for full price, upgrade it yourself to a Ring of Invisibility with a +1 Deflection bonus (MIC p234) for half the price of a Ring of Invisibility, and it can use its own actions to activate its invisibility effect on you every round.

Take the feats Magical Training (PGtF) and Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). Magical Training gives you a spellbook into which you've already scribed several spells, so you could reasonably learn and scribe more just as a Wizard does. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including those spells you've put in your spellbook. You would probably need to have the book open and read the spell as you cast it, so it wouldn't be very useful in combat, but it definitely adds a lot of versatility.

As long as you have at least one spell in your book one level higher than your current highest level spell slots, your ability to cast that would give you early knowledge of that level of your Beguiler class spell list as well. This also allows you to select spells one level higher via Advanced Learning, so the level of those spells could be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th with the above build. My personal choices for Advanced Learning are Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility.

[Gazzien]

Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 is the standard build, and for good reason. You don't want to lose any spellcasting, and that one level dip is only to put your Advanced Learning at even-numbered spellcasting levels.

You can get Hide in Plain Sight via a greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic. Be sure to pick up the feats Darkstalker and Mindsight from Lords of Madness.

+5 Slight of Hand is a 2,500 gp item, which is definitely not worth losing a level of spellcasting. If you want skill bonuses, take Item Familiar at 3rd level and invest every skill point from 4th level and up for the greatest return. Make it a ring and wear a glove or gauntlet over it so opponents can never target it directly or slight of hand it.

Item familiars are intelligent items, which are regarded as constructs, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining, and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. Make it start as a Ring of Protection +1 for full price, upgrade it yourself to a Ring of Invisibility with a +1 Deflection bonus (MIC p234) for half the price of a Ring of Invisibility, and it can use its own actions to activate its invisibility effect on you every round.

Take the feats Magical Training (PGtF) and Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). Magical Training gives you a spellbook into which you've already scribed several spells, so you could reasonably learn and scribe more just as a Wizard does. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including those spells you've put in your spellbook. You would probably need to have the book open and read the spell as you cast it, so it wouldn't be very useful in combat, but it definitely adds a lot of versatility.

As long as you have at least one spell in your book one level higher than your current highest level spell slots, your ability to cast that would give you early knowledge of that level of your Beguiler class spell list as well. This also allows you to select spells one level higher via Advanced Learning, so the level of those spells could be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th with the above build. My personal choices for Advanced Learning are Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility.
Thank you. Very very much. That even looks very playable at low levels, so I run this the entire way. Perfect. (Also, your persisting-Cloud Of Knives-build was fun to read, though I didn't feel the need to comment on it at the time).