Dread Necromancer

[Zanthy1]

Thinking about building one, probably level 8 for now, but planning on going all the way to 20 with it (Free loch? I think so). However, I am mostly intrigued by the class, but have no knowledge on the best way to build it. It is 3.5 if that matters, but I want to go for the controlling overlord style. So more HD of zombies and such, the better.

What race, feats, items, and Maybe a prestige class, would you recommend?

(For those of you who are are like me and prefer cited information, Dread Necromancer is found in the Heroes of Horror on pages 84-88)

[gorfnab]

Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212)

[Zanthy1]

That is incredibly helpful, thank you so much!

[JaronK]

For your first advanced learning, you have three options: Ghoul Glyph, Kelgor's Grave Mist, and Black Sand. Nothing else is useful, but those three are great. Take your pick.

JaronK

[Zanthy1]

For your first advanced learning, you have three options: Ghoul Glyph, Kelgor's Grave Mist, and Black Sand. Nothing else is useful, but those three are great. Take your pick.

JaronK

What books are they in?

[Karnith]

What books are they in?
Ghoul Glyph is in Libris Mortis, Kelgore's Grave Mist is in the Player's Handbook II, and Black Sand is in Sandstorm.

[Keld Denar]

Grave Mist is in PHBII, Ghoul Glyph is in SpC, and I'm petty sure Black Sand is in either Sandstorm our SpC.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't think Black Sand is a good spell to pick for your Advanced Learning. You only need a single scroll of it to have a renewable supply.

I do, however, endorse Kelgore's Grave Mist as being an excellent spell which deals cold and negative energy damage without permitting SR. It is a great vehicle for metamagic feats such as Fell Drain which add additional effects, and it does nothing but heal minions like skeletons.

Ghoul Glyph is a cute trick, no mistake, but again, I think it is best for scrolls rather than for memorization. For an additional spell known, you're wanting one you can spam to your heart's content, and there are few other ways for a DN to get SR:NO on his spell list.

[Sgt. Cookie]

DN isn't the best for this, but if you can stomache a -2 to your caster level for most of your spells, or you have a spare feat for Practiced Spellcaster, Prestige Bard could be your answer, if you decide to go the Requiem Route. However, you need a Wizard/Beguiler dip to qualify.

Prestige Bard is available in the SRD, and it has a 10/15 spellcasting progression, so you do lose some caster levels, but not as many as you would if you went regular Bard.

[shadow_archmagi]

It's worth nothing that being an overlord controlling huge numbers of minions is not something D&D was designed for or handles well- nobody wants to wait while you take each skeleton's turn and roll for them to hit.

It can be made to work, but only with care and sacrifice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

DN isn't the best for this, but if you can stomache a -2 to your caster level for most of your spells, or you have a spare feat for Practiced Spellcaster, Prestige Bard could be your answer, if you decide to go the Requiem Route. However, you need a Wizard/Beguiler dip to qualify.

Prestige Bard is available in the SRD, and it has a 10/15 spellcasting progression, so you do lose some caster levels, but not as many as you would if you went regular Bard.

As I pointed out in the guide... IC optimization is exceedingly feat intensive. So is mass minionmancy. You just don't have the feat slots to squeeze both in.


It's worth nothing that being an overlord controlling huge numbers of minions is not something D&D was designed for or handles well- nobody wants to wait while you take each skeleton's turn and roll for them to hit.

It can be made to work, but only with care and sacrifice.

True, that's why you go for *BIG* minions, using Animate Dread Warrior or Animate Skeletal Champion. I'd rather have a single 17 HD Ubercharger than 17 1hd humanoid skeletons any day of the week.

Instead of having an army of disposable minions, you have a few disposable minions you keep out of combat due to their lack of effectiveness in combat which are used for utility (i.e. hauling loot) or other assorted out of combat uses (trap-triggering, lever-pulling, scouting...), plus three or four bodyguard-class minions who provide the beatsticks for a party of primarily casters.

[Karnith]

Something else you should probably keep in mind when you're playing: the Dread Necromancer's fear aura is broken (in the sense of not working, not being over-powered). It has no listed duration, but it reeeeeally ought to. RAW, once an enemy is affected by it, it lasts forever. Generally, people houserule that it's either only effective within the radius of the aura, or that it only lasts for a certain amount of time, but you should talk with your DM about how it works.

[Sgt. Cookie]

As I pointed out in the guide... IC optimization is exceedingly feat intensive. So is mass minionmancy. You just don't have the feat slots to squeeze both in.

True, but if you DON'T IC optimise, an unlikely scenario, granted, Prestige Bard is the better choice than standard Bard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

True, but if you DON'T IC optimise, an unlikely scenario, granted, Prestige Bard is the better choice than standard Bard.

If you don't optimize IC, then there's no point to taking Prestige Bard because it gives you no benefits and a lot of drawbacks.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I'm not saying it's worth it, just that it's better than standard Bard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm not saying it's worth it, just that it's better than standard Bard.

Which... isn't saying much. Bard dip for DN, as covered by the guide, is a large trap. But yes, I agree, it is better than a Bard dip. Although even a Monk dip is better than a Bard dip (particularly with Ascetic Mage feat to get your casting stat as an AC bonus).

[Eonir]

First off, best of luck in your necromancy career! I played a Dread Necromancer once, and was (and still is) HANDS DOWN my favorite character ever. He is now an extremely broken BBEG for our group's campaign setting (see this guy here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=358767)).

Tips:
If your DM let's you grab Shivering Touch for your advance learning, DO SO AND NEVER LOOK BACK.

Take tomb-tainted soul. Just do it.

Undead Leadership is a FANTASTIC feat (you have free out of combat healing for your cohort).

In short, Dread Necromancer is an amazing class and a very solid Tier 3. Enjoy it!

[Sgt. Cookie]

Neat. Though I have to ask. How do you get a BaB of 21? BaB stops at level 20, at Epic levels you just gain a bonus to your attack.

EDIT: Scratch that. How do you get full BaB anyway? DN is medium BaB (IIRC, it's certainly not full)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Neat. Though I have to ask. How do you get a BaB of 21? BaB stops at level 20, at Epic levels you just gain a bonus to your attack.

EDIT: Scratch that. How do you get full BaB anyway? DN is medium BaB (IIRC, it's certainly not full)

Several possible ways, the easiest is Persist Divine Power.

Gain Divine Power through a domain via Arcane Disciple, then pick up either Southern Magician or some other method of permitting your spells to be considered either arcane or divine so that you can then apply DMM to it and DMM: Persist it.

[Talderas]

True, that's why you go for *BIG* minions, using Animate Dread Warrior or Animate Skeletal Champion. I'd rather have a single 17 HD Ubercharger than 17 1hd humanoid skeletons any day of the week.

A dread necromancer will have, at minimum, 5 + Charisma Modifier minions. The minimum will be minions with as many HD as he has. That's 1 from command undead and 4 + Charisma Modifier from animate dead. A minimum of 10 minions is laughably easy for a dread necromancer.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A dread necromancer will have, at minimum, 5 + Charisma Modifier minions. The minimum will be minions with as many HD as he has. That's 1 from command undead and 4 + Charisma Modifier from animate dead. A minimum of 10 minions is laughably easy for a dread necromancer.

Yea... no. Or rather, yes, but not in the way you are thinking.

First off, you've probably got a couple dozen sunk into disposable minions. Random stuff that either has an interesting and situationally useful Ex ability it kept from its former life or you are just keeping around to expend in a questionable situation. They stay out of combat, because that isn't their function.

Second off, you've got others that you keep around for utility purposes. Things like your Slaymate or something with an alternate movement mode for a mount. You likely don't want these getting into combat either.

Then you've got your big boys.

First off, you DON'T want to rely on Command Undead for long term, particularly not if the critter in question is sentient and REMEMBERS that you commanded them. In the short term to turn someone's minions against them? Absolutely. But for long term... too risky.

Second, you don't want to rely on Animate Undead for your big boys. Zombies and skeletons are filler, but otherwise not terribly interesting, and higher HD zombies and skeletons have no significant advantages over smaller ones. It would be MUCH better for you to expend your Advanced Learning on Animate Dread Warrior or Animate Skeletal Champion, which retains class abilities.

Third, you'll want some 'shock troops'. These don't have to be powerful, they just have to be present. Their whole purpose is to be a meat shield so they die instead of actually valuable minions or even party members. They go up front and ahead of the party. You'll know you have opponents when they start dropping. You'll be constantly replacing them, through various means, and you'll want enough of them that opponents can't just go through them AND get to you, and you'll want ones that things can't simply bypass.

Fourth, you want to keep a reserve of control around, just in case you run into something that you'd like to raise. There's nothing more annoying than running out of control cap and having one of your minions go woolly on you.

So four or five is going to be about right.

[Eonir]

Neat. Though I have to ask. How do you get a BaB of 21? BaB stops at level 20, at Epic levels you just gain a bonus to your attack.

EDIT: Scratch that. How do you get full BaB anyway? DN is medium BaB (IIRC, it's certainly not full)



Several possible ways, the easiest is Persist Divine Power.

We have a winner.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Animate Dread Warrior seems really powerful. For an admittedly large chunk of XP you get permanent allies, and if the DM optimizes his NPCs they can be comparable to a party-mate in power. And you can have a whole team of them. How does a DM compensate? If that spell gets the ban hammer, what's a Dread Necromancer to take instead? I guess he could go the fear route, but that still leaves the question of what to do with your massive undead pool...

[Zanthy1]

As I pointed out in the guide... IC optimization is exceedingly feat intensive. So is mass minionmancy. You just don't have the feat slots to squeeze both in.

Just want to take this moment to say that I love what I have read of your guide so far!

As for the rest of this stuff, I am still working out some ideas. I really do want to go straight Dread Necromancer, 1-20. What book are the Animate Dread Warrior and Skeletal Champion in?

[Silva Stormrage]

Just want to take this moment to say that I love what I have read of your guide so far!

As for the rest of this stuff, I am still working out some ideas. I really do want to go straight Dread Necromancer, 1-20. What book are the Animate Dread Warrior and Skeletal Champion in?

Another way to get undead minions with class levels is to simply use create undead. With create undead you are allowed to create bone creatures and corpse creatures (Essentially more powerful skeletons and zombie) that retain class features. You do need to rebuke them to get control, but also they are much cheaper.

Animate Dread Warrior is in unapproachable east
Skeleton Champion I have never heard of and the only thing I can find on google is from pathfinder.

[Melcar]

Im pretty sure it says some where in DMG, that any spell caster can create his own spells. So go crazy with the IMBA stuff! Like Negative Energy Fire Balls... Or Negative Ligtning Bolt.

The amount of power will no end take!

[Vizzerdrix]

I'll probably be the only one to say it, but Mage of the Arcane Order is worth getting into. You'll have to burn a few feats to pull it off, but you'll get almost all the spells everyone is recommending for advanced learning. It'll open up lesser planar ally to you in your down time. Use glyphs to set up a summon room. Call-n-kill a few Bearded Devils, spined devils, or (my favorite) Nabassu to fill your tanking needs. You'll also get options for when using yer pets isn't a good idea.

Four levels will get you up to 6th level Sorc/Wiz spells and a metamagic feat. Going 7 will get you 9th level Sorc/Wiz spells, but will cut too deep into your controllable HD.

[Wookie-ranger]

Im pretty sure it says some where in DMG, that any spell caster can create his own spells. So go crazy with the IMBA stuff! Like Negative Energy Fire Balls... Or Negative Ligtning Bolt.

The amount of power will no end take!

Look a the Utter-Cold Necromancer build.
That does pretty much exactly that, turn all your damaging spells (like fireball or wall of fire) into half cold and half negative energy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Look a the Utter-Cold Necromancer build.
That does pretty much exactly that, turn all your damaging spells (like fireball or wall of fire) into half cold and half negative energy.

Or, yanno, just use Kelgore's Grave Mist and already do area effect cold and negative energy damage and ignore SR at the same time...

[Zanthy1]

What about races?

[Eonir]

What about races?

Other than the usual (human, dragonwrought kobold, et al)...

The Necropolitan Template from Libris Mortis turns you into an undead. So races with a con hit aren't all that bad, particularly the Star Elf, which gains a charisma boost.

Strongheart Halfling is a good one for small size (easier undead riding, can hide in certain undead, bonuses to hit).

And while not overly optimized, I think Gnomes make hilarious Dread Necromancers.

EDIT: My spelling was atrocious.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hauling loot, scouting, trap-triggering, digging and other large-scale untrained labor... that's what you use 1hd skellies for... get a few of those, and like one or two big beasties!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What about races?

Pretty much what Eonir said... Human, DW Kobold, Dragonborn takes a note for having a Charisma bonus, or Strongheart Halfling.

Necropolitian is probably your best bet for a template to throw on top, although if you really do want to go DN20, you'll want to get a True Rez before hitting your capstone so you can get a free +4 LA template.

Spellstitched would make you quite powerful, particularly if you pull off something like Animate Dread Warrior as a SLA. But hey, even good ol' Create Undead or Animate Dead would make component-less creation of disposable minions. Getting Desecrate or Unhallow would take a bit more doing (the spellstitcher in question would have to pick up Arcane Disciple to get the spell), but uses should be fairly obvious.

[TheifofZ]

Hum, lets see... They've covered pretty much everything. Uhm.
Frightful Necromancy is an amazing feat, IMO. Everything you hit with a necro spell is shaken, no save, on top of any effect that the spell had (or failed to have, if they did save.)
Talk to the DM before hand and work out a system to handle effective minion animation (so everyone else doesnt sit around for an hour while you modify the monster)
Say what you want, the BoVD's Bone and Corpse Creature templates are very nice if you want undead that keep their special abilities (and they only cost Create Undead/Create Greater Undead. No problem)
You probably won't use more than half your rebukes per day, so seriously look into Divine Metamagic.
Oh, and Magic Jar is probably the most easily abused spell you have, if you use it right. Well, aside from control undead/animate dead/create undead.

And personally I love the idea of going DN20 for full free lichdom.
Not only is it a very strong template, but the actual roleplaying aspect is amazing. Anyone who tells you not to go this route just for the sake of min-max'd power gaming is uncool. You make the choice if you scream "MORE POWA, I NEED MORE POWA" as you level, and multiclass out; or if you're into just seeing it through to the end and becoming an undead monstrosity.

[Zanthy1]

Hum, lets see... They've covered pretty much everything. Uhm.
Frightful Necromancy is an amazing feat, IMO. Everything you hit with a necro spell is shaken, no save, on top of any effect that the spell had (or failed to have, if they did save.)
Talk to the DM before hand and work out a system to handle effective minion animation (so everyone else doesnt sit around for an hour while you modify the monster)
Say what you want, the BoVD's Bone and Corpse Creature templates are very nice if you want undead that keep their special abilities (and they only cost Create Undead/Create Greater Undead. No problem)
You probably won't use more than half your rebukes per day, so seriously look into Divine Metamagic.
Oh, and Magic Jar is probably the most easily abused spell you have, if you use it right. Well, aside from control undead/animate dead/create undead.

And personally I love the idea of going DN20 for full free lichdom.
Not only is it a very strong template, but the actual roleplaying aspect is amazing. Anyone who tells you not to go this route just for the sake of min-max'd power gaming is uncool. You make the choice if you scream "MORE POWA, I NEED MORE POWA" as you level, and multiclass out; or if you're into just seeing it through to the end and becoming an undead monstrosity.

Sadly, Divine Metamagic does not work for Dread Necromancer because it is an Arcane casting class. Although there are, I believe I read somewhere, a feat or two that can change that.

What book is strong heart halfling in?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sadly, Divine Metamagic does not work for Dread Necromancer because it is an Arcane casting class. Although there are, I believe I read somewhere, a feat or two that can change that.Southern Magician or Alternate Spell Source. Either one will allow your arcane spells to be counted as divine.

Other than that, NaenHoon can let you Persist stuff without DMM.


What book is strong heart halfling in?
Forgotten Realms specific subrace.

[JaronK]

One great feat for DNs is Imperious Command. They can use their fear aura to render enemies shaken, then tag them with an intimidate check that drops them straight to cowering. Since they're a Charisma caster, it should land easily enough, and now the enemy can't fight back.

JaronK

[Wookie-ranger]

Base race:
Lesser Aasimar (+0 LA)

Templates:
Necropolitan is almost must. (+0 LA, sort of)
Spark (magic blooded) (+0 LA)
unsellied-fey (IF you take the feat to still be a humanoid, bc fey cannot be undead)

I am AFB right now, but this comes to mind

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One great feat for DNs is Imperious Command. They can use their fear aura to render enemies shaken, then tag them with an intimidate check that drops them straight to cowering. Since they're a Charisma caster, it should land easily enough, and now the enemy can't fight back.

JaronK

Wrong. Imperious Command is a TRAP.

They can use their fear aura, in combination with Aura of Terror and Fell Frighten, and drop them straight to Cowering without requiring an action to Intimidate...

Imperious Command sends targets to Cowering anyways, there's zero synergy between it and fear aura.

[JaronK]

Wrong. Imperious Command is a TRAP.

They can use their fear aura, in combination with Aura of Terror and Fell Frighten, and drop them straight to Cowering without requiring an action to Intimidate...

Imperious Command sends targets to Cowering anyways, there's zero synergy between it and fear aura.

Fear Aura's duration isn't clear, but most think it's supposed to be 1 round per level (since it's like fear and like the Lich ability). But fear effects stack interestingly. They add up for how afraid you are, but the duration is that of the longest effect. This means when you use Imperious Command after Fear Aura, they remain cowering (and thus out of the fight) for your DN level rounds. That's incredibly potent, and doesn't require any spell usage on your part.

Now combine that with Fearsome armor from Drow of the Underdark and you can do it as a move action, so you can eliminate one enemy per round and still cast. And with the Never Outnumbered skill trick, you can actually take out entire encounters this way.

Aura of Terror, however, takes up an Advanced Learning that you could have used on Animate Dread Warrior. That's the trap, I'd say.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fear Aura's duration isn't clear, but most think it's supposed to be 1 round per level (since it's like fear and like the Lich ability). But fear effects stack interestingly. They add up for how afraid you are, but the duration is that of the longest effect. This means when you use Imperious Command after Fear Aura, they remain cowering (and thus out of the fight) for your DN level rounds. That's incredibly potent, and doesn't require any spell usage on your part.

Now combine that with Fearsome armor from Drow of the Underdark and you can do it as a move action, so you can eliminate one enemy per round and still cast. And with the Never Outnumbered skill trick, you can actually take out entire encounters this way.

JaronK

OR you could just Aura of Terror, using Southern Magician to Persist, and use Dread Witch to bypass fear immunities so you can actually affect anything with it

Using just one spell per day for passive 'every opponent near me is automatically cowering, even if they ARE immune, requiring no action on my part' is a good deal.

Action Economy is the only economy that truly matters. Not expending actions is better than expending actions.

[JaronK]

Look at the spells you miss out on by choosing that spell. That's the problem. Also, what I'm saying starts working at low levels. Yours requires being at least level 12.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Look at the spells you miss out on by choosing that spell. That's the problem. Also, what I'm saying starts working at low levels. Yours requires being at least level 12.

JaronK

All the spells I miss out on? Which spells are these, precisely?

Dread Necro7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro8

At Dread Necro 4, I get Kelgore's Grave Mist. At Dread Necro 8 (caster level 12), I pick up Aura of Terror. At Dread Necro 12, I pick up Animate Dread Warrior.

Are there really any other necromancy spells i would want?

Your combo requires opponents to be within 5' of you, due to the dependency on the fear aura. Mine increases that to 15'. So your combo has to close to melee range. Mine doesn't.

Yours also doesn't deal with immunities, which mine does. I'm also not wasting feats on it, since any feats I am using on this combo (like DMM: Persist) will also used in other areas of my character (like Divine Power through Arcane Disciple for full BAB)

Earlier isn't always better if it doesn't scale later on. Yours starts off mediocre, and pretty much stays that way as more and more things are immune to it.

Besides, anything which doesn't even beat out what a CW Samurai does? Isn't exactly something I'd suggest to a Tier 3 full caster.

[Silva Stormrage]

All the spells I miss out on? Which spells are these, precisely?

Dread Necro7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro8

At Dread Necro 4, I get Kelgore's Grave Mist. At Dread Necro 8 (caster level 12), I pick up Aura of Terror. At Dread Necro 12, I pick up Animate Dread Warrior.

Are there really any other necromancy spells i would want?

Your combo requires opponents to be within 5' of you, due to the dependency on the fear aura. Mine increases that to 15'. So your combo has to close to melee range. Mine doesn't.

Yours also doesn't deal with immunities, which mine does. I'm also not wasting feats on it, since any feats I am using on this combo (like DMM: Persist) will also used in other areas of my character (like Divine Power through Arcane Disciple for full BAB)

Earlier isn't always better if it doesn't scale later on. Yours starts off mediocre, and pretty much stays that way as more and more things are immune to it.

Besides, anything which doesn't even beat out what a CW Samurai does? Isn't exactly something I'd suggest to a Tier 3 full caster.

While I agree with your main points, stacking fear auras is better than imperious command especially if you can't reduce intimidate to a move action (Fearsome armor does this though and is pretty cheap if I remember). Imperious command isn't quite a "Trap". It is a LOT easier to boost intimidate than it is to boost save dc's . If you can get intimidate as a move action you can effectively cover one opponent automatically each round if you spend almost any effort on it.

The auras while passive and probably better target saving throws. Saving throws are MUCH easier to pump up to high levels. Also another note, the auras do NOT send enemies to cowering. They only force enemies to cower if they can't escape. If you make a wizard panicked he will teleport away. Congrats you have lost your loot and made a recurring enemy who can teleport. Compare to imperious command spamming which forces them to cowered immediately (And automatically causing shaken next round which makes it easier to fear with any other ability)

Imperious command is weaker in a general since but it has specific really good uses.

[JaronK]

All the spells I miss out on? Which spells are these, precisely?

Dread Necro7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro8

First of all, you're exiting DN at 7, meaning you don't get the amazing DN 8 ability that most people take the class for in the first place. Second of all, you can have the Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered trick up and running with the following build:

Dread Necromancer 6.

Seriously, it's up and running that quickly.


At Dread Necro 4, I get Kelgore's Grave Mist. At Dread Necro 8 (caster level 12), I pick up Aura of Terror. At Dread Necro 12, I pick up Animate Dread Warrior.

Are there really any other necromancy spells i would want?

Consumptive Field? Awaken Undead? Avasculate? Ghoul Glyph? Shivering Touch?


Your combo requires opponents to be within 5' of you, due to the dependency on the fear aura. Mine increases that to 15'. So your combo has to close to melee range. Mine doesn't.

Yours isn't available until 12th level at a minimum, mine's up at level 6. Plus it requires a persistent spell... wouldn't Persistent Consumptive Field be just a touch stronger?


Besides, anything which doesn't even beat out what a CW Samurai does? Isn't exactly something I'd suggest to a Tier 3 full caster.

It takes no spells, it works well through the mid levels, it's hard to save against, and you can do it in addition to casting a spell that round.

JaronK

[Zanthy1]

Not gonna lie, I am not really interested in boosting the fear aura. I am going almost all minionmancy..

Edit: This is not to say that I do not appreciate your guidance on that aspect, but as it seems to be causing a little ruckus, it might be best to avoid the issue?

A note, I want to take this class straight Dread Necromancer, however most campaigns that I play never will go as high as that, so I was just going to go as far as possible lol

It also came to my attention while reading the Necropolitan template (page 114 in Libris Mortis) that to become one requires 3000 gp and the loss of level? and also another 1000 xp? is this correct? or am I misreading something? could it all be summed to be a LA +1?

[Wookie-ranger]

could it all be summed to be a LA +1?

Nope, It is actually A LOT better!
When you become a Necropolitan at level 3 you will be bumped down a notch and reduce your level. you gain a lot of bonuses and immunities though.
When you level up a few time you will be on the same level again since as a lower level char you gain more experience per encounter (in 3.5, not so in PF)

If you were LA+1 you would always be behind, forever, and unless you go epic would never become a lich.

[Zanthy1]

So, for example, if I were to make a Dread Necromancer starting at level 8, how would I incorporate this? just start 1000 xp down from everyone else?

[Wookie-ranger]

So, for example, if I were to make a Dread Necromancer starting at level 8, how would I incorporate this? just start 1000 xp down from everyone else?

hmmm, well. you can always ask the DM to give it to you at LA0. At higher levels it is not 'that' unbalanced anymore, especially considering the the DN is Tier 3.

If the DM does not go for that you could start at Level 7 with 1000xp short of level 8. Basically giving everyone not a starting level, but a set amount of xp that they can spend however they want before the game starts (like on crafting items)

[Zanthy1]

hmmm, well. you can always ask the DM to give it to you at LA0. At higher levels it is not 'that' unbalanced anymore, especially considering the the DN is Tier 3.

If the DM does not go for that you could start at Level 7 with 1000xp short of level 8. Basically giving everyone not a starting level, but a set amount of xp that they can spend however they want before the game starts (like on crafting items)

I think I'll probably do something along these lines. Hopefully I can just get away with LA0, but starting 1000 xp below everyone else is not a super big deal

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First of all, you're exiting DN at 7, meaning you don't get the amazing DN 8 ability that most people take the class for in the first place. Second of all, you can have the Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered trick up and running with the following build:Seriously, look at the build again. I go BACK to DN after Dread Witch, which means, among other things, that I get my 6th level spells at DN 8 (instead of having to wait for DN 12), due to Dread Witch advancing my casting.


Dread Necromancer 6.

Seriously, it's up and running that quickly.Quickly /= better


Consumptive Field? Awaken Undead? Avasculate? Ghoul Glyph? Shivering Touch?Why would you WANT to Awaken your Undead? They're much better as being under your complete and total control. Awakened minions might decide they no longer want to be your minions.

Avasculate is sub-par damage output, ghoul glyph can be had at level 4 if you want to bother with it, and while shivering touch is fun, it's just not as much fun as a walking field of 'go away'.

Consumptive Field is only viable if you cheese it to the extreme. Even then, it's got a hard-cap on the CL boost, so the only thing you are getting is Str (which is irrelevant to a DN), and temporary hit points (which are irrelevant when you simply declare yourself to be unable to be attacked)



Yours isn't available until 12th level at a minimum, mine's up at level 6. Plus it requires a persistent spell... wouldn't Persistent Consumptive Field be just a touch stronger?Not unless you cheese it, and even then probably not. Immunity to melee attacks is probably stronger than what you get out of Consumptive Field.


It takes no spells, it works well through the mid levels, it's hard to save against, and you can do it in addition to casting a spell that round.

JaronK

And once you get to mid levels, it becomes a completely wasted feat as it no longer works on anything. Fear Aura + Aura of Terror? Does, thanks to Dread Witch.

Dread Witch boosts DC of fear effects. Aura of Terror boosts the DC of your aura even more. That's before you get into other methods of stat-stacking.

Also, keep in mind that Tainted is always an option for a DN, since you're undead anyways you don't suffer from the negative effects, to boost your DC's to arbitrary levels.

Imperious Command is nice, don't get me wrong. I may have used it once or twice myself. But a Dread Necro has far superior options. Let the Zhent Fighter have his swift-action Imperious Command. You'll just not bother spending any actions at all, wading through combat and causing people to cower at your very presence just by simply existing.

[JaronK]

Why would you WANT to Awaken your Undead? They're much better as being under your complete and total control. Awakened minions might decide they no longer want to be your minions.

If you awaken something with Awaken Undead that you'd animated with Animate Dead, you still control it. But now it has feats and ex abilities and skills and weapon proficiencies.

Feats and abilities actually make those skeletons and zombies a heck of a lot better and you're a Dread Necromancer. You can have a heck of a lot of those guys.


Avasculate is sub-par damage output, ghoul glyph can be had at level 4 if you want to bother with it, and while shivering touch is fun, it's just not as much fun as a walking field of 'go away'.

Ghoul Glyph is a no save kill spell when used right. Kelgor's Grave Mist, as you admit, is a spell you'd like to have too.

Avasculate stuns enemies, which generally takes them out of the fight, in addition to doing more damage than the vast majority of blast spells out there (with no save, only the stun can be saved against). If you prefer, there's always Avascular Mass which is crowd control too.

And Shivering Touch is legendary for its overpowered nature.

Other fun spells out there are General of Undeath (double the overall HD of undead you're able to control) and Haunt Shift (Create nearly invincible minions, animate a carriage, create tiny object spies using Awakened skeletons and zombies of stealthy creatures, etc).


Consumptive Field is only viable if you cheese it to the extreme. Even then, it's got a hard-cap on the CL boost, so the only thing you are getting is Str (which is irrelevant to a DN), and temporary hit points (which are irrelevant when you simply declare yourself to be unable to be attacked)

You've been talking about persisting these spells. If you persist it, Consumptive Field is absolutely incredible. With a metamagic rod of extend spell, you can make it last 48 hours, and remember that new castings use the CL of the old casting to determine the new limit if you overlap. The result is that your caster level maxes out at one less than double what it was. So a level 10 Dread Necromancer with Persistent Consumptive Field ends up running around with a caster level of 19, which could be much higher if he can boost his CL with Necromancy spells in any way. And that happens naturally. You're comparing a will save based fear aura to double caster level. Also you end up with a high enough strength score that you can suddenly kill people with melee attacks.

Nearly doubling your caster level trumps the heck out of a fear aura.

Look, I'm not saying Aura of Terror is a horrible choice. But it's not what the OP wants (and note he's going pure Dread Necromancer, so it'll have the same fear uselessness issues as all other fear things), nor does it even come into play at the levels most people play at (most games are before level 10), and your trick requires using cheap Persistent Spell tricks just to function at all (at which point Consumptive Field becomes the obvious way to go). So calling Imperious Command a trap when that ability is actually usable and very effective for a while and has an almost unstoppable save without NEARLY the investment required in Prestige Classes and cheese... that's a bit much, don't you think?

Anyway, the OP wants a minion based Dread Necromancer. In which case it seems to me that spells like Awaken Undead, Haunt Shift, and Animate Dread Warrior will give him a LOT more millage.

JaronK

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

When an undead gets Awakened, does the caster choose the feats?

[JaronK]

That's an interesting question. In the original printings of the spell, they didn't gain feats or skills. But in the SpC version (which is the newest), it just says they "regain any extraordinary racial abilities they had in life" (note that racial bonus feats are ex abilities) while making no other mention of feats or skills, yet all intelligent undead have feats and skills appropriate to their hit dice. So, this is completely unclear... they either get their old feats and skills back, or they get new feats and skills due to suddenly being intelligent undead (with nothing specific to how those new feats and skills are chosen).

JaronK

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Whether you'd choose to learn Awaken Undead over Animate Dread Warrior pretty much hinges on that interpretation, no?

[JaronK]

Quite so. They're both impressive spells in the right hands. Access to Spell Stitched undead could also change things.

JaronK