[3.5] Core Cleric Melee / Healing help?

[ClericQ]

Hi all,
I've recently found out that I'll be joining a 3.5 game this weekend, and I'm looking into playing the Support / Healing Cleric while out of battle or in emergencies, and helping dish out damage with some melee. I've scoured about for some good handbooks, but most of the links are broken. I'm wondering if any of you fine folk can take a look at my rough outline and make any suggestions.

While the DM has stated that most of our choices are to Core only, we can present cases for using non-core stuff and then get approval.

Rest of the party will be a Paladin and a melee ranger.

My build thus far is this:

Lvl1 Cleric
Race: Human
Diety / Domain: 3 way tie at the moment, having trouble deciding
[Boccob: Trickery / Magic]
[Pelor: Strength / Healing]
[Fharlanghn: Travel / Luck]

Gear: (50g starting) [I know some of the starting gear isn't ideal, but I've been told it will change after the weekend game]
Heavy Mace: 12g
Leather Armor: 10g
Heavy Wooden Shield: 7gp
Wooden Holy Symbol: 1gp
2x Scroll Cure Light Wounds: 20gp
(All provisions such as adventuring gear, tent etc is considered a given)

Stats: We'll be rolling exact stats come the weekend, but I know my point layout should be
WIS > CON = STR > CHA > DEX = INT

Feats:
1. Extend Spell
H. Power Attack?
3. Cleave?
6. Improved Initiative?
9. Quicken Spell
12+ ???

Some background on the campaign:
Sounds like the world will be mostly made up of Dwarves and Elves, with no real Human land. The theme will be a bit Steampunk, incorporating magic and machinery (think Arcanum).

If there's any information I'm missing, let me know and I'll add it in as quick as I can.

-ClericQ

[HunterOfJello]

Never take the Healing domain, unless you want to specialize in healing and decide to take the Domain Substitution ACF. The Healing Domain is a massive trap.

Beg your DM for full access to the cleric spells in the Spell Compendium. Make the case that it is a large book full of spells for clerics, but they are spells that were printed in other books first. They were heavily playtested by the community after those books came out and new, balanced versions of those spells were put into the SpC. That book is actually a heavy boon to clerics, rangers, and paladins so it wouldn't be a benefit to only your character either. (Whether you want to bring that last point up is up to you.)

If the SpC becomes open, there are quite a few new domains in that book. The domain powers that become accessible are also worth strongly considering. Pride, Dream, and Planning come to mind. People will occasionally take an odd feat just so they can get access to the domain power of one of these domains. A player making a tank build that refuses to dip into cleric would be smart to gain access to the Pride domain power.

As you gain funds, spend your money on:
Wand of Lesser Vigor for healing out of combat
Wand of Resurgence for removing status ailments
1 Morningstar (for bludgeoning and piercing damage)
3 Daggers (for slashing damage)
First Aid Kit (has quite a few uses)

I might not take Power Attack and I definitely wouldn't take Cleave if I was playing a cleric in a party of 3 with 2 melee characters. If the Ranger isn't going ranged, then you should consider building your cleric to be powerful in ranged combat. Clerics make some of the best (and are one of the few competent) archers in the game.

[Valdis]

Go human if the DM will allow it. (2 feats at 1st level + the Planning domain feat of Extend Spell... if possible)
For feats I would look at getting Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Divine Metamagic.. then you can Persist Divine Power once you get 4th level spells... but if in a bind you could always Persist the 2nd level spell Bull's Strength OR the 3rd level spell Ice Axe, if you Persist DP you'll be the best melee character in the party.

If you could somehow talk your DM into taking a deity with the Planning domain, that would take care of the Extend Spell Feat. Planning also has the 9th level spell Time Stop... yay!!
The Planning Domain can be found in the Spell Compendium page 278... Gond, Helm, Ilneval, Red Knight, Siamorphe, Ubtao are the deities that have it.
Gond: Planning/Fire
Red Knight: Planning/War
Ubtao: Planning/Protection

my 2 pennies

[ericgrau]

If you're doing melee and healing (and maybe buffs for your melee) then you don't need wis except for a couple bonus spells.
STR > CON > WIS > CHA > INT. DEX >= 12 for when you get full plate later. WIS >= 13 to cast.

Don't bother with power attack with a medium base attack bonus. And by the time you buff yourself to a higher attack bonus, your damage will also be so high that it won't be worth it either. For buffs I prefer a 3,000 gp lesser rod of extend spell over the feat.

If you expect any downtime I'd pick up a crafting feat like magic arms & armor or wondrous items, but if not then don't bother. At level 1 you don't have many options besides weapon focus, and for that you should consider the war domain instead if you can. Don't underestimate the extra hits from a +1 compared to the other limited core options. At minimum it's way better than core-only power attack whose trade-off is almost break-even at medium BAB, so you pay a feat for almost nothing. In fact considering the limitations of feats in core, you're better off as a half-orc for another +1. Later I would consider enlarge spell + shield other and quicken spell. Maybe extend spell once you're casting 6th level spells and extending 4th level buffs (so the rod doesn't work). The mounted combat tree is always a nice option in all but the tighest of spaces, and at high levels you can leadership up a fancy mount. Combat expertise + improved trip for a tripper is another possible way to go, especially with the strength domain for massive trip checks. I would take improved initiative and the save boosting feats only as a last resort, once you're out of major metamagic, crafting and possibly mounted or tripping options.

Example feats:
Half-Orc Cleric
1: Weapon Focus
3: Mounted Combat
6: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9: Leadership (for a special mount)
12: Quicken Spell
15: Extend Spell
Human could bump up either metamagic feat to level 3 (whether you can use it right away or not) and then put the other one at level 12. Shoot for at least a 10 cha for leadership and boost it to 12 with a +2 item by the time you get the feat.
Combat expertise + improved trip might replace any of the first 4 feats depending on the campaign setting.

For melee the strength domain ability is pretty sweet. The luck domain reroll is pretty nice too and better early on, but not as nice later. The rest are so-so. True the healing domain power is ultra-sucky at levels 5-10, but an extra 10 on heal doesn't hurt.

[Valdis]

Str > con > wis > cha > int. Dex >= 12 for when you get full plate later. Wis >= 13 to cast.


If his wisdom is only 13, couldn't he only cast up to 3rd level spells?

[ericgrau]

Magic items. With proper wealth and typical wis boosting items it shouldn't be hard to keep up with his spell level as long as his wis is at least 13. That's how I picked that number.

[Valdis]

Magic items. With proper wealth and typical wis boosting items it shouldn't be hard to keep up with his spell level as long as his wis is at least 13. That's how I picked that number.

Makes sense... it's not like he'll be able to use 18 wisdom right off the bat is it :smallbiggrin:
The only things I see low wisdom effecting at low levels are Will Saves and Saves vs. His spells



Example feats:
Half-Orc Cleric
1: Weapon Focus
3: Mounted Combat
6: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9: Leadership (for a special mount)
12: Quicken Spell
15: Extend Spell


He doesn't need mounted combat or a special mount... Just do what I did and kill a young black dragon, then use animate dead on him, turn him into a zombie... Poof, you have a mount! :smallsmile:

[WinWin]

Core only?

Human Cleric.

No Deity. Domains: War and Luck or Trickery. Trickery if you have the intelligence to invest in the extra skills, otherwise Luck for the 1/day reroll.

Take Longbow as favoured weapon. Put skill ranks in Craft Bowyer/Fletcher and tell the DM your character made their own bow (so it falls within wealth allowence)

1.Point Blank Shot
1.Bonus: Weapon Focus Longbow
1.Bonus Human: Rapid Shot
3.Craft Wondrous
6.Craft Arms and Armour
9>Quicken,Extend

The arrows are just a fallback option when you are not spamming your best spells. Any cleric spell you can use to buff your melee power will also enhance ranged with the exception of bulls strength.

Forge bracers of archery as early as you can. Forge a mighty +1 composite bow at earliest opportunity. Add on special effects, then use Greater Magic Weapon for the improved base enhancement bonus. Forge a few + 1 arrows with different effects on them to your bow, for special opponents.

You already have 2 melee characters in the party. Going ranged would be the superior option for a support role.

[ClericQ]

Hey all, first off thanks for the replies. I think I will go with the ranged cleric. I've looked at some other threads on the forum and have come up with revised plan, any critique or advice? These include non-core stuff so I'm going to make my case to the DM tonight

Level 1 Wild Elf Ranged Cleric
(+2 Dex, -2 Int)
Wis > Con > Cha > Dex > Str > Int
Domains: Planning / Elf
Flaw: Noncombatant (-2 to melee attack rolls)
Feats:*
Longbow (Elf Race)
Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain)
Extend Spell (Planning Domain)
Persistent Spell (Flaw)
1. Precise Shot
3. Zen Archery
6. Divine Metamagic (Persistent)
9. Extra Turning
12. Rapid Shot
15. Improved Precise Shot

Gear: (50g to start)
Short bow: 30g
Leather Armor: 10g
1x Scroll Cure Light Wounds: 10gp

-ClericQ

[Valdis]

I like it.. I think HunterOfJellO and WinWin had a good idea of going ranged with your Cleric... no need to steal the fun from your other party members.
I can't speak on the archery feats, I've never played an archer before and have no idea what any of them do.
Also glad to see that you've considered Persistant Spell and Divine Metamagic, they will be very helpful. Also the Planning domain was a good choice for Extend Spell, the prereq for Persist.

I would suggest reading this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866186/The_Ultimate_Archer_Handbook)

Sounds like you'll have a really good time.. hope your DM goes for it.

[ClericQ]

I like it.. I think HunterOfJellO and WinWin had a good idea of going ranged with your Cleric... no need to steal the fun from your other party members.
I can't speak on the archery feats, I've never played an archer before and have no idea what any of them do.
Also glad to see that you've considered Persistant Spell and Divine Metamagic, they will be very helpful. Also the Planning domain was a good choice for Extend Spell, the prereq for Persist.

I would suggest reading this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866186/The_Ultimate_Archer_Handbook)

Sounds like you'll have a really good time.. hope your DM goes for it.

Thanks for the link, very informative. As it happens, I've always favoured playing the ranged role, but because of the need for utility, and the threat of going MAD if I don't get the Zen archery, going the melee path seemed like the most ideal choice. As you said, HunterOfJellO, WinWin, and your comments are excellent ideas and have persuaded me to go with what feels right instinctively. Thanks again everyone.

[WinWin]

Seeing as you went with Elf and other Books are available, you may want to look at taking a few levels of Seeker of the Misty Isle in Complete Divine.

Eligability for the prestige class will not be possible until high level, due to the skill requirements, but it might be a good way to round out your character if the campaign takes you to a high level.